The future of European Speedster Assembly [locked]

2014-12-05 04:39:12 pm

As much as I’d like to give a real opinion on things, I really can’t. I haven’t attended an ESA, and any observations of the event are purely second-hand via the stream(s). On top of that, there simply isn’t enough evidence or convincing argument to side with either Ludendi or Edenal and co. (at least in this thread - I'm not part of the ESA15 Skype group Alko mentioned, and I think it's safe to say most people reading this thread are not either).

Both sides at least pretend to want what is best for ESA, and I hope they really do, but so far it seems to come down to pettiness on both sides, especially with the lack of solid evidence corroborating either side’s story. I’d love for ESA, or an equivalent event, to keep going for the sake of the European speedrunning community, but at this time I can’t advocate anything beyond complete transparency (at least as far as the law and respect for individual privacy allow) and the hope for some sort of amicable resolution, however grudging it may be.

If nothing else, all this ESA drama can serve as a warning and a lesson to anyone else organizing an online event. Those of us planning RPG Limit Break are paying attention and already trying to avoid the kinds of mistakes we see here. But it would be a real shame if that were to be ESA’s lasting legacy, so if I have anything to offer, it is this: to anyone involved in ESA, whichever (if any) side you are on, please try to look at the big picture. Like any good event in the speedrunning community ESA has been about the community and a good cause, and individual pride or recognition should not even be a concern. And I think it’s safe to say that pretty much everyone who cares about ESA at all ultimately feels that way as well.

As much as I’d like to give a real opinion on things, I really can’t.  I haven’t attended an ESA, and any observations of the event are purely second-hand via the stream(s).  On top of that, there simply isn’t enough evidence or convincing argument to side with either Ludendi or Edenal and co. (at least in this thread - I'm not part of the ESA15 Skype group Alko mentioned, and I think it's safe to say most people reading this thread are not either).

Both sides at least pretend to want what is best for ESA, and I hope they really do, but so far it seems to come down to pettiness on both sides, especially with the lack of solid evidence corroborating either side’s story.  I’d love for ESA, or an equivalent event, to keep going for the sake of the European speedrunning community, but at this time I can’t advocate anything beyond complete transparency (at least as far as the law and respect for individual privacy allow) and the hope for some sort of amicable resolution, however grudging it may be.

If nothing else, all this ESA drama can serve as a warning and a lesson to anyone else organizing an online event.  Those of us planning RPG Limit Break are paying attention and already trying to avoid the kinds of mistakes we see here.  But it would be a real shame if that were to be ESA’s lasting legacy, so if I have anything to offer, it is this: to anyone involved in ESA, whichever (if any) side you are on, please try to look at the big picture.  Like any good event in the speedrunning community ESA has been about the community and a good cause, and individual pride or recognition should not even be a concern.  And I think it’s safe to say that pretty much everyone who cares about ESA at all ultimately feels that way as well.

Styris

2014-12-06 08:13:25 am

Get in contact with an third party accountant and get some lawyers and sit down and settle this.

Since it's clearly to personal for you to ever solve this by just talking, take in lawyers and settle a real contract.

Pottoww

Edit history:

Pottoww: 2014-12-08 09:07:27 am

Pottoww: 2014-12-08 09:06:55 am

Pottoww: 2014-12-08 09:06:31 am

Pottoww: 2014-12-08 08:54:49 am

Pottoww: 2014-12-08 08:52:29 am

2014-12-08 08:49:20 am

One thing that I can truly say after reading this thread is that the lack of evidence from both sides is pretty huge. A tip for the future is to document everything. The meeting you had for example when you discussed this, since there was a secretary, should have a written protocol. But in discussions like these you should probably even record the meeting itself.

ESA and Ludendi are parts of each other, and always has been. Therefore the sister organisation thing that Alko said seems like a good solution. To start this over from square one seems a bit over the line of what is necessary.

I would suggest that ESA starts itself up as its own organisation, and then both parts write a contract in a meeting open for anyone to follow and participate in. This meeting would let anyone willing to to raise their questions at the same time as the settlement for the contract and the possible voting would come down to anyone who is, in the beginning of the meeting, confirmed and assigned as a member of the official settlement.

This would mean that ESA get their own bank account and their own management, while still being a part of Ludendi as well as Ludendi being a part of ESA, without any organisation owning the other one. The contract would therefore set the demands and rights for both parts and would only get terminated if both parts signed a contract to terminate the old one. By writing this openly and in a way that both parts can settle their requirements would let everyone to get up happy from the discussions.

This meeting would also need a group of people outside of these two organisations to act as prolocutor/moderator, secretary and adjusters as well as someone outside of the communities to record the meeting.

Let's face it, you are dealing with organisations, money, people, rent, taxes, law and everything around this at the moment. This is a serious discussion and it has to be settled on a serious standard.

So if TL;DR:

- ESA starts up as its own organisation/compound.
- An open meeting is held with people outside of the two communities as management.
- A possible contract is signed if both parts agree on the terms of rights and demands from each other.
- The contract is being kept at a third-party, voted for confidence by the people at the meeting, while two unofficial copies is sent to both parts (I don't know how this would work but I guess there are rights to store something like this at a government of any kind, not accessible unless both parts are there, this might sound stupid but as I said this is one of the parts I have no clue on how it would work).
- Everyone in both organisations follow the same rights and rules. To say something like "the head organizer can be deprived his position if he doesn't fulfill the requirements" is obvious for any official organisation or compound out there. To take away someones position is not something you can do just by 3 people saying "we don't like you", so that won't be a thing in case of two sister organisations.

The management for the meeting should be chosen based on their exclusion in these two organisations and their confidence from the community. So that should be set by "voting" to put this at a good level. Anyone involved in either the ESA or Ludendi side of this discussion should be held from managing the meeting.

Edit: As said in the post above me as well, if you want to take it to a even more serious and fair level, sit down with real lawyers. This is a discussion involving real organisations, so that would not be taking it too far. This is what they are meant to work with.

Ignore this post, they posted a solution 15 minutes after I sent this.

One thing that I can truly say after reading this thread is that the lack of evidence from both sides is pretty huge. A tip for the future is to document everything. The meeting you had for example when you discussed this, since there was a secretary, should have a written protocol. But in discussions like these you should probably even record the meeting itself.

[s]ESA and Ludendi are parts of each other, and always has been. Therefore the sister organisation thing that Alko said seems like a good solution. To start this over from square one seems a bit over the line of what is necessary.

I would suggest that ESA starts itself up as its own organisation, and then both parts write a contract in a meeting open for anyone to follow and participate in. This meeting would let anyone willing to to raise their questions at the same time as the settlement for the contract and the possible voting would come down to anyone who is, in the beginning of the meeting, confirmed and assigned as a member of the official settlement.

This would mean that ESA get their own bank account and their own management, while still being a part of Ludendi as well as Ludendi being a part of ESA, without any organisation owning the other one. The contract would therefore set the demands and rights for both parts and would only get terminated if both parts signed a contract to terminate the old one. By writing this openly and in a way that both parts can settle their requirements would let everyone to get up happy from the discussions.

This meeting would also need a group of people outside of these two organisations to act as prolocutor/moderator, secretary and adjusters as well as someone outside of the communities to record the meeting.

Let's face it, you are dealing with organisations, money, people, rent, taxes, law and everything around this at the moment. This is a serious discussion and it has to be settled on a serious standard.

So if TL;DR:

- ESA starts up as its own organisation/compound.
- An open meeting is held with people outside of the two communities as management.
- A possible contract is signed if both parts agree on the terms of rights and demands from each other.
- The contract is being kept at a third-party, voted for confidence by the people at the meeting, while two unofficial copies is sent to both parts (I don't know how this would work but I guess there are rights to store something like this at a government of any kind, not accessible unless both parts are there, this might sound stupid but as I said this is one of the parts I have no clue on how it would work).
- Everyone in both organisations follow the same rights and rules. To say something like "the head organizer can be deprived his position if he doesn't fulfill the requirements" is obvious for any official organisation or compound out there. To take away someones position is not something you can do just by 3 people saying "we don't like you", so that won't be a thing in case of two sister organisations.

The management for the meeting should be chosen based on their exclusion in these two organisations and their confidence from the community. So that should be set by "voting" to put this at a good level. Anyone involved in either the ESA or Ludendi side of this discussion should be held from managing the meeting.

Edit: As said in the post above me as well, if you want to take it to a even more serious and fair level, sit down with real lawyers. This is a discussion involving real organisations, so that would not be taking it too far. This is what they are meant to work with.[/s]

Ignore this post, they posted a solution 15 minutes after I sent this.

Edenal

2014-12-08 09:04:33 am

Hockey enthusiast

The one thing everyone involved in this situation have in common is that we all want a European marathon in the summer of 2015. Our views of how to get there have differed. It’s very unfortunate that it has escalated this far but we’ve started to reach common ground and are turning our heads forward.

We’ve agreed that there is no rightful owner of ESA. It’s a community run event, and shall stay that way. ESA will not be turned into an organisation or a company and will continue to be a non-profit speedrunner meetup and marathon.

The planning group from ESA 2014 will independently carry out the planning and executing of ESA 2015 as previously planned. With support from Ludendi.

The ESA planning group will increase its efforts to communicate with the community through forums and roundtables. The ESA planning group will strive towards including individuals who are deemed qualified in the planning and execution process of ESA if it benefits the tasks. No one individual is guaranteed to be included in the planning and executing for ESA. It’s the responsibility of the individual to reach out and contact the ESA planning group, not the other way around.

Any future announcements regarding ESA will be communicated solely through official ESA-channels. Those being www.europeanspeedsterassembly.com, the ESA-account on SDA, the ESA-twitter account and the IRC-channel #ESA on irc.speedrunslive.com.

ESA will no longer be streamed on the Ludendi twitch account (twitch.tv/ludendi). But will continue to be a part of the Twitch team of Ludendi (twitch.tv/team/ludendi). The future main account for ESA related activies is twitch.tv/europeanspeedsterassembly

The ESA planning group will be responsible for economy of ESA2015. And will provide complete transparency for these accounts. Statements from these accounts may be requested at any time, by anyone.

Both Ludendi and the ESA planning group are content with these guidelines and are looking forward for the next iteration of European Speedster Assembly.

This post represents the views of Edenal and the ESA 2014 planning group. Which also includes bangerra, flicky, grukk and oasiz.

This post was written by Edenal, Svenne and Crippe.

The one thing everyone involved in this situation have in common is that we all want a European marathon in the summer of 2015. Our views of how to get there have differed. It’s very unfortunate that it has escalated this far but we’ve started to reach common ground and are turning our heads forward.

We’ve agreed that there is no rightful owner of ESA. It’s a community run event, and shall stay that way. ESA will not be turned into an organisation or a company and will continue to be a non-profit speedrunner meetup and marathon.

The planning group from ESA 2014 will independently carry out the planning and executing of ESA 2015 as previously planned. With support from Ludendi.

The ESA planning group will increase its efforts to communicate with the community through forums and roundtables. The ESA planning group will strive towards including individuals who are deemed qualified in the planning and execution process of ESA if it benefits the tasks. No one individual is guaranteed to be included in the planning and executing for ESA. It’s the responsibility of the individual to reach out and contact the ESA planning group, not the other way around.

Any future announcements regarding ESA will be communicated solely through official ESA-channels. Those being www.europeanspeedsterassembly.com, the ESA-account on SDA, the ESA-twitter account and the IRC-channel #ESA on irc.speedrunslive.com.

ESA will no longer be streamed on the Ludendi twitch account (twitch.tv/ludendi). But will continue to be a part of the Twitch team of Ludendi (twitch.tv/team/ludendi). The future main account for ESA related activies is twitch.tv/europeanspeedsterassembly

The ESA planning group will be responsible for economy of ESA2015. And will provide complete transparency for these accounts. Statements from these accounts may be requested at any time, by anyone.

Both Ludendi and the ESA planning group are content with these guidelines and are looking forward for the next iteration of European Speedster Assembly.

This post represents the views of Edenal and the ESA 2014 planning group. Which also includes bangerra, flicky, grukk and oasiz.

This post was written by Edenal, Svenne and Crippe.

Svenne

2014-12-08 09:04:43 am

Smörgåsbord

Ludendi are satisfied with that the ESA group will independently continue to plan and execute the European Speedster Assembly and will support the event.

Ludendi may locally be referred to as host so that Ludendi as an organisation may apply for grants and subsidies from the municipality which will provide ESA with lower venue costs, cover parts of the rent and help Ludendi conduct further local events.

Any previous hardware and equipment are and will remain the property of Ludendi. The equipment may be offered and lent to others who want to host marathons similar to ESA. Equipment that’s been purchased for previous ESA events will always be made available for future iterations of ESA. With any equipment purchased for ESA's purpose, 60 days before the event the equipment must be on stand by and prioritised for ESA.

If necessary for maintenance, testing or experimentation for ESA purposes. Equipment may be kept in another location than the storage unit in Skövde with a representative of the ESA planning group.

Ludendi will increase its efforts in being open for foreign individuals and will in the future conduct meetings online and in English if requested.

This post represents the views of Svenne and Ludendi. Which also includes Frezy_man & Crippe.

We are putting past quarrels behind us and are looking forward and to the next iteration of European Speedster Assembly!

This post was written by Edenal, Svenne and Crippe.

Ludendi are satisfied with that the ESA group will independently continue to plan and execute the European Speedster Assembly and will support the event.

Ludendi may locally be referred to as host so that Ludendi as an organisation may apply for grants and subsidies from the municipality which will provide ESA with lower venue costs, cover parts of the rent and help Ludendi conduct further local events.

Any previous hardware and equipment are and will remain the property of Ludendi. The equipment may be offered and lent to others who want to host marathons similar to ESA. Equipment that’s been purchased for previous ESA events will always be made available for future iterations of ESA. With any equipment purchased for ESA's purpose, 60 days before the event the equipment must be on stand by and prioritised for ESA.

If necessary for maintenance, testing or experimentation for ESA purposes. Equipment may be kept in another location than the storage unit in Skövde with a representative of the ESA planning group.

Ludendi will increase its efforts in being open for foreign individuals and will in the future conduct meetings online and in English if requested.

This post represents the views of Svenne and Ludendi. Which also includes Frezy_man & Crippe.

We are putting past quarrels behind us and are looking forward and to the next iteration of European Speedster Assembly!

This post was written by Edenal, Svenne and Crippe.

Alko

2014-12-08 10:39:08 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Edenal:

Quote from Svenne:

<3

Now let's put our strength together and make ESA15 even better than the years before!

And I seriously owe some people big time!

lurk

2014-12-08 12:40:35 pm

glad to see things have turned around. i look forward to esa15

AlecK47

2014-12-08 12:47:32 pm

Efreeti

2014-12-08 02:21:28 pm

Clear as a crisp spring morning!

Fantastic. I'm really glad things are coming together. I honestly didn't want to believe anyone had ill will against future events.

doicm

2014-12-08 02:46:51 pm

All fine and dandy. Good luck with the organization of your next event. May no selfish quarrels cause further drama.

Styris

2014-12-08 06:44:00 pm

GJ guys!

Maxiethehatter

2014-12-09 12:24:28 pm

Glad to see the whole mess had a good outcome!
Always heartwarming to see big fights turn out well.
Best of luck with the planning!
Should you want me for anything just let me know.
Maxie out!

KVD

2014-12-20 05:17:50 am

Kudos for working your differences out Svenne & Edenal. Happy to see that the community isn't shred in two, so that ESA 2015 can continue more or less like in previous years (in terms of involved people).

dunnius

2014-12-22 08:27:08 am

Intruding N313 and F014

I'm glad this got worked out.

If ESA (or any other charity marathon) needs assistance with keeping track of the accounting for public auditing, I am willing to act as bookkeeper free of charge. My occupation is programming for an accounting package (and customized business programs), so I have a sufficient knowledge of accounting, and have been a bookkeeper in the past.

I don't want to see financial accusations being made; they are very serious. The lesson here is to keep proper books.

Alko

2014-12-22 03:40:49 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

*mumbles* half the lesson is to actually prove your bookkeeping with proper books. A spreadsheet still doesn't count if the numbers are correct. Both sides had the data to back up their numbers, they were just reluctant to show it

stanski

Edit history:

stanski: 2014-12-24 01:12:39 am

stanski: 2014-12-24 01:11:34 am

stanski: 2014-12-24 01:10:01 am

2014-12-24 01:09:38 am

wise fwom yo gwave

Sorry this is off topic slightly, but I live in Sweden now, and I could probably run like sonic 2 or something at a marathon if there was a need/desire. Someone shoot me an email (nineallday00 at gmail dot com) when the marathon is approaching with where I should show up if this is wanted. I'm married to a Swede and don't even play video games really but yea I could throw down some sonic 2 if needed.

flicky

2014-12-24 05:24:08 am

$15 per rant/allegory

Wait, you live in Sweden? Holy fuck, whens' reunion?

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-12-24 09:33:01 am

Quote from stanski:

I live in Sweden now

Fits the avatar colors well.

Sunblade

2015-01-04 02:36:25 am

Only Offense Will Survive

I just read this thread after being inactive for a long time. Great to see that the things are coming together again. Depending on the date, I will try to be back this year!

PrinnyTonic

2015-01-26 03:42:39 am

German to the Past

Quote from Sunblade:

I just read this thread after being inactive for a long time. Great to see that the things are coming together again. Depending on the date, I will try to be back this year!

Second that. Espacially since I am really considerung going to ESA this year.

Cool Matty

2015-01-26 07:16:32 am

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Locked by order of Edenal.