Syphon Filter - February 17, 2014

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2014-02-17 07:40:58 pm

2014-02-02 02:12:57 pm

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/SyphonFilter.html

Syphon Filter (Any %) (Segmented)

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to Martin 'J.Y' Söderhäll!

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2014-02-02 02:13:22 pm

Run Information

Syphon Filter (Any %) (Segmented)

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/syphonfilter/

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting. Verifications are due by Feb. 16, 2014.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

After 2 weeks I will read all of the verifications and move this thread to the main verification board and post my verdict.

J.Y

Edit history:

J.Y: 2014-02-03 08:06:23 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:48:57 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:47:45 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:42:44 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:41:59 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:41:09 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:40:55 am

J.Y: 2014-02-03 07:40:32 am

2014-02-03 03:40:59 am

Game page does exist: http://speeddemosarchive.com/SyphonFilter.html
EDIT: The run is now available on Youtube

BaronHaynes

2014-02-04 02:46:40 pm

Strange days, incredible days

A/V good, no cheating. All the skips used are well-documented and shown to work as they do here.

Summary: Strong improvement to the previous record, tightening up all the segments to within a few seconds of their ideal times (with some possible exceptions, but it's hard to know for sure). Most efficient known route, strong movement and precise aiming throughout, with only minor execution errors. J.Y almost makes the game look like it has okay controls, which is a superhuman feat.

The only real critique I have is K3G4 ammo management toward the end (it's used on explosive barrels twice and on an unarmored guard), and the choice of which guards to stop and manually headshot in a few spots. All of the manual aiming is done very quickly, but I suspect a tighter guard route in the final chain of levels could shave off more time. That's not to say this route is sloppy by any means, I'm just speculating on what's possible. This is an incredibly strong run.

Level Breakdown:
Georgia Street - The route for this level is down to a science at this point. Slight delay after shutting off the subway security, but it's a very minor movement error. This level could maybe be improved by a few seconds with intense grinding and perfect pathwork, but this one nails all the animation skips and is very solid.

Destroyed Subway - If you're unfamiliar with this game, the vertical climb might look slow, but this is about the fastest I've ever seen it done. Action context and movement are both based on camera position in this game, which is controlled manually and has some delays in it. It's real clunky, in other words. Skipping the wire hang was new to me when I saw it, so good find.

Main Subway Line - Oh neat, a boss fi-

Washington Park - All the cover sections are well-managed to abandon the agent as quickly as possible without failing the mission. The route has seen some improvements as well. Strong movement, strong hedge maze section.

Freedom Memorial - This looked a little slow. It's faster than last time and the strategy is as efficient as anyone knows thus far, but with such a short boss fight, it probably shouldn't have a missed shot in it. Very minor in the scheme of things, just noticeable.

Expo Center Reception - This is one of the hardest levels in the run, and there are a couple of aiming errors here that look sloppy, but in terms of Syphon Filter's controls, are just part of running the game. If any one thing gets away from you in this level, it's over, so this is a strong enough segment even if it's not pushed to its absolute limit here. The Phagan shadowing skips at the start are very tough to do and a great addition to the run.

Expo Center Dinorama - Smooth level. Tasering Mara from the dinosaur is a good idea and a lot less likely to cause a mission failure.

Rhoemer's Base - Good guard spawns, good Gabrek. Very easy to die during an alert run of this level.

Base Bunker - This one was REALLY impressive. Button skip glitches are all over and he hits all of them. A perfect run of this level would get all of the (eye-level) laser field control panels without stopping to manual aim, but doing that with Syphon Filter's camera is a really tall order. The manual aiming that J.Y does do is very quick. Great work.

Base Tower - Very fast work of the chopper.

Base Escape - Fire hitboxes and how they behave in this game are still kind of a mystery to me, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn there's even more fire skips somewhere. The truck skip is a great find, kudos to skychase2rebirth for that.

Rhoemer's Stronghold - Long level with a lot of tasks in it, well-managed. Animation skip on the test subjects is a good find. J.Y skips getting the K3G4, a weapon that cuts through enemy body armor that I used in the next 3 levels, cutting out a 20-second detour, and finds new strats to compensate for not having it.

Stronghold Lower Levels - Manipulates scientist movement so they'll be in the right spot to kill without stopping or making detours. This strat was in my run, but it's been improved by the use of gas grenades. Only one movement error I noticed, very efficient play across the whole level.

Stronghold Catacombs - Phagan section seemed fine. It's hard to know what a good Phagan section is because he slows down ahead of enemies and stops for random intervals. Lian slowed down a few times, but there are so many guards and it's hard to keep moving without killing some to keep from soaking up damage. He never bumps into either of them from what I saw, which makes them pause for a few seconds. This is a good catacombs run, not the best possible, but it's hard to do much better without divine intervention of some sort.

PHARCOM Warehouses - Wastes some K3G4 ammo on a guard with no armor (and on some barrels). I can't remember if the random guard spawns in this level ever have armor or not, but since J.Y mentions K3G4 ammo conservation in his comments, this seems like an odd choice. Everything else goes smoothly. I think it would be worth practicing the guard head roll skip if it's a noticeable timesaver, as Koppeeka and Loopaddict do something similar in their Syphon Filter 2 run. As J.Y mentioned, though, that might be getting into TAS territory.

PHARCOM Elite Guards - It might be possible to do a bit faster final tunnel. Many of the choices here make sense (which guards to skip, which to K3G4, which to stop and headshot), but some others seemed hesitant or questionable (using K3G4 on barrels in particular). I know how random this section can be with which guards decide to actually hit you, though. A lot can go wrong easily. The movement is efficient throughout the rest of the level.

Warehouse 76 - Fire skips galore. I like how little of this level exists anymore.

Silo Access Tunnels - Stopping to headshot single guards could be prevented with better K3G4 ammo management in levels 15 and 16. Maybe using the BIZ-2 on the grenade guard as well. Movement and shooting are still very efficient, though. The guard rush after the power relay is well-handled.

Tunnel Blackout - The weapon cycling trick is very handy for the climb down. It might be possible to BIZ-2 one of the guards in the final section rather than stopping to heashot him (the last one before the group of three). All of the manual headshots are done very quickly, though.

Missile Silo - Pretty much perfect. The grenade landing on Rhoemer's head is a great final moment for the run. Smiley

Verdict: ACCEPT! It's very cool to see this game pushed to such a high level of play.

A/V good, no cheating. All the skips used are well-documented and shown to work as they do here.

Summary: Strong improvement to the previous record, tightening up all the segments to within a few seconds of their ideal times (with some possible exceptions, but it's hard to know for sure). Most efficient known route, strong movement and precise aiming throughout, with only minor execution errors. J.Y almost makes the game look like it has okay controls, which is a superhuman feat.

The only real critique I have is K3G4 ammo management toward the end (it's used on explosive barrels twice and on an unarmored guard), and the choice of which guards to stop and manually headshot in a few spots. All of the manual aiming is done very quickly, but I suspect a tighter guard route in the final chain of levels could shave off more time. That's not to say this route is sloppy by any means, I'm just speculating on what's possible. This is an incredibly strong run.

[b]Level Breakdown[/b]:
Georgia Street - The route for this level is down to a science at this point. Slight delay after shutting off the subway security, but it's a very minor movement error. This level could maybe be improved by a few seconds with intense grinding and perfect pathwork, but this one nails all the animation skips and is very solid.

Destroyed Subway - If you're unfamiliar with this game, the vertical climb might look slow, but this is about the fastest I've ever seen it done. Action context and movement are both based on camera position in this game, which is controlled manually and has some delays in it. It's real clunky, in other words. Skipping the wire hang was new to me when I saw it, so good find.

Main Subway Line - Oh neat, a boss fi-

Washington Park - All the cover sections are well-managed to abandon the agent as quickly as possible without failing the mission. The route has seen some improvements as well. Strong movement, strong hedge maze section.

Freedom Memorial - This looked a little slow. It's faster than last time and the strategy is as efficient as anyone knows thus far, but with such a short boss fight, it probably shouldn't have a missed shot in it. Very minor in the scheme of things, just noticeable.

Expo Center Reception - This is one of the hardest levels in the run, and there are a couple of aiming errors here that look sloppy, but in terms of Syphon Filter's controls, are just part of running the game. If any one thing gets away from you in this level, it's over, so this is a strong enough segment even if it's not pushed to its absolute limit here. The Phagan shadowing skips at the start are very tough to do and a great addition to the run.

Expo Center Dinorama - Smooth level. Tasering Mara from the dinosaur is a good idea and a lot less likely to cause a mission failure.

Rhoemer's Base - Good guard spawns, good Gabrek. Very easy to die during an alert run of this level.

Base Bunker - This one was REALLY impressive. Button skip glitches are all over and he hits all of them. A perfect run of this level would get all of the (eye-level) laser field control panels without stopping to manual aim, but doing that with Syphon Filter's camera is a really tall order. The manual aiming that J.Y does do is very quick. Great work.

Base Tower - Very fast work of the chopper.

Base Escape - Fire hitboxes and how they behave in this game are still kind of a mystery to me, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn there's even more fire skips somewhere. The truck skip is a great find, kudos to skychase2rebirth for that.

Rhoemer's Stronghold - Long level with a lot of tasks in it, well-managed. Animation skip on the test subjects is a good find. J.Y skips getting the K3G4, a weapon that cuts through enemy body armor that I used in the next 3 levels, cutting out a 20-second detour, and finds new strats to compensate for not having it.

Stronghold Lower Levels - Manipulates scientist movement so they'll be in the right spot to kill without stopping or making detours. This strat was in my run, but it's been improved by the use of gas grenades. Only one movement error I noticed, very efficient play across the whole level.

Stronghold Catacombs - Phagan section seemed fine. It's hard to know what a good Phagan section is because he slows down ahead of enemies and stops for random intervals. Lian slowed down a few times, but there are so many guards and it's hard to keep moving without killing some to keep from soaking up damage. He never bumps into either of them from what I saw, which makes them pause for a few seconds. This is a good catacombs run, not the best possible, but it's hard to do much better without divine intervention of some sort.

PHARCOM Warehouses - Wastes some K3G4 ammo on a guard with no armor (and on some barrels). I can't remember if the random guard spawns in this level ever have armor or not, but since J.Y mentions K3G4 ammo conservation in his comments, this seems like an odd choice. Everything else goes smoothly. I think it would be worth practicing the guard head roll skip if it's a noticeable timesaver, as Koppeeka and Loopaddict do something similar in their Syphon Filter 2 run. As J.Y mentioned, though, that might be getting into TAS territory.

PHARCOM Elite Guards - It might be possible to do a bit faster final tunnel. Many of the choices here make sense (which guards to skip, which to K3G4, which to stop and headshot), but some others seemed hesitant or questionable (using K3G4 on barrels in particular). I know how random this section can be with which guards decide to actually hit you, though. A lot can go wrong easily. The movement is efficient throughout the rest of the level.

Warehouse 76 - Fire skips galore. I like how little of this level exists anymore.

Silo Access Tunnels - Stopping to headshot single guards could be prevented with better K3G4 ammo management in levels 15 and 16. Maybe using the BIZ-2 on the grenade guard as well. Movement and shooting are still very efficient, though. The guard rush after the power relay is well-handled.

Tunnel Blackout - The weapon cycling trick is very handy for the climb down. It might be possible to BIZ-2 one of the guards in the final section rather than stopping to heashot him (the last one before the group of three). All of the manual headshots are done very quickly, though.

Missile Silo - Pretty much perfect. The grenade landing on Rhoemer's head is a great final moment for the run. :)

Verdict: ACCEPT! It's very cool to see this game pushed to such a high level of play.

J.Y

Edit history:

J.Y: 2014-02-05 07:56:16 am

2014-02-05 07:55:28 am

Quote:

Freedom Memorial - This looked a little slow. It's faster than last time and the strategy is as efficient as anyone knows thus far, but with such a short boss fight, it probably shouldn't have a missed shot in it. Very minor in the scheme of things, just noticeable

The reason I fire 4 shots instead of 3 is because you often tend to miss the last shot if he's not lined up in the right position. If he starts walking again, you often shoot straight through him, even if you aim at the tank. But it could be a half second faster.

Quote from Aaron_Haynes:

PHARCOM Warehouses - Wastes some K3G4 ammo on a guard with no armor (and on some barrels).

I do agree with that. I don't know why I even had the K3G4 selected, because you can just roll past the three guards in the warehouse (like I did in the run). This must have been one of the first times I even got that far in the level, so I should probably have done a few more attemps.

Quote:

PHARCOM Elite Guards - It might be possible to do a bit faster final tunnel. Many of the choices here make sense (which guards to skip, which to K3G4, which to stop and headshot), but some others seemed hesitant or questionable (using K3G4 on barrels in particular).

Using the K3G4 on the barrels is pretty much the fastest way here, it takes to long time to switch weapons (and I only use 4 shots on it anyway). From what I saw I wasted 16 bullets on PHARCOM Warehouses, which would be enough to kill 3 enemies, maybe 4 if you're lucky, so I could probably have used it on a few more guards in the tunnel though.

Quote:

Silo Access Tunnels - Stopping to headshot single guards could be prevented with better K3G4 ammo management in levels 15 and 16. Maybe using the BIZ-2 on the grenade guard as well. Movement and shooting are still very efficient, though. The guard rush after the power relay is well-handled.

I think that the grenade-guard starts fire at me if I blast him with the BIZ, but I might remember it wrong. I do think that you have to stop at some guards here though, at least on the first one (just before dropping down into the tunnel). The reason I didn't use the K3G4 in the room with the elevator is because I need to have a two-handed weapon selected, otherwise I will not get that big boost of the boxes.

Quote:

Tunnel Blackout: It might be possible to BIZ-2 one of the guards in the final section rather than stopping to heashot him (the last one before the group of three)

It would not work with the BIZ because that would trigger another guard that's standing just behind him to the left. He dosen't show up in the run this particular time though, which was a rare moment, but if he shows himself and starts to fire at me, he will also trigger the last three guards and you would have to restart the level.

Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said. If all levels were 100% perfect execution wise, I think that you can get a sub 60 min run, but that would be extremely hard to pull off.

[quote]Freedom Memorial - This looked a little slow. It's faster than last time and the strategy is as efficient as anyone knows thus far, but with such a short boss fight, it probably shouldn't have a missed shot in it. Very minor in the scheme of things, just noticeable[/quote]
The reason I fire 4 shots instead of 3 is because you often tend to miss the last shot if he's not lined up in the right position. If he starts walking again, you often shoot straight through him, even if you aim at the tank. But it could be a half second faster.

[quote="Aaron_Haynes"]PHARCOM Warehouses - Wastes some K3G4 ammo on a guard with no armor (and on some barrels).[/quote]
I do agree with that. I don't know why I even had the K3G4 selected, because you can just roll past the three guards in the warehouse (like I did in the run). This must have been one of the first times I even got that far in the level, so I should probably have done a few more attemps.

[quote]
PHARCOM Elite Guards - It might be possible to do a bit faster final tunnel. Many of the choices here make sense (which guards to skip, which to K3G4, which to stop and headshot), but some others seemed hesitant or questionable (using K3G4 on barrels in particular).[/quote]
Using the K3G4 on the barrels is pretty much the fastest way here, it takes to long time to switch weapons (and I only use 4 shots on it anyway). From what I saw I wasted 16 bullets on PHARCOM Warehouses, which would be enough to kill 3 enemies, maybe 4 if you're lucky, so I could probably have used it on a few more guards in the tunnel though.

[quote]Silo Access Tunnels - Stopping to headshot single guards could be prevented with better K3G4 ammo management in levels 15 and 16. Maybe using the BIZ-2 on the grenade guard as well. Movement and shooting are still very efficient, though. The guard rush after the power relay is well-handled.[/quote]
I think that the grenade-guard starts fire at me if I blast him with the BIZ, but I might remember it wrong. I do think that you have to stop at some guards here though, at least on the first one (just before dropping down into the tunnel). The reason I didn't use the K3G4 in the room with the elevator is because I need to have a two-handed weapon selected, otherwise I will not get that big boost of the boxes.

[quote] Tunnel Blackout: It might be possible to BIZ-2 one of the guards in the final section rather than stopping to heashot him (the last one before the group of three) [/quote]
It would not work with the BIZ because that would trigger another guard that's standing just behind him to the left. He dosen't show up in the run this particular time though, which was a rare moment, but if he shows himself and starts to fire at me, he will also trigger the last three guards and you would have to restart the level.

Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said. If all levels were 100% perfect execution wise, I think that you can get a sub 60 min run, but that would be extremely hard to pull off.

BaronHaynes

2014-02-05 11:19:34 am

Strange days, incredible days

It's so hard to remember where the spawns are in this game and how to manipulate them -- one of the problem with trying to verify a game with such weird spawn patterns. I had some of them memorized years ago, but not anymore.

Thanks for the additional notes, it's always cool to have more information on what's happening in a run. Perfect K3G4 management would be great for the final section, but this is still top-tier play and planning.

J.Y

2014-02-05 12:19:49 pm

Yeah, this game requires way more planning and luck than it seems, given that it's a pretty straight forward game. But you definitely do have a point with the K3G4 in the last part of the game, with some more careful usage I could maybe saved 10-15 seconds. Thank you for taking time to verify, it's always nice to have some feedback from others Smiley

DanE

2014-02-06 03:38:56 pm

Fjölpärsk

A/V is fine, no cheating obviously.

Since Aaron have provided us with a pretty extensive reply I don't think there's much to add. A solid improvement over the old run and apart from some minor mistakes, everything is executed on a level that's way beyond what we saw the last time.

Accept!

SDAVerification

2014-02-17 07:41:02 pm

Decision posted.

BaronHaynes

2014-02-17 11:45:55 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Grats J.Y! Back in 2006, I kinda figured no one else would be interested in optimizing this game, and it's really cool to see it taken this far. Smiley

J.Y

2014-02-18 02:14:13 am

Nice! Yeah, this game is pretty much as optimized as it can be right now, but I wouldn't be that surprised if there are some more timesavers that we haven't discovered yet. Now we just need that SS run... Wink