Syphon Filter (PS)

2013-09-25 02:37:42 am

Strange days, incredible days

I don't remember that at all :O
Maybe I didn't watch that level because I assumed there were no timesavers on it? I definitely took a lot of stuff for granted when planning that run.

Do you do the level 2 fire skip in SS? I'm still learning how to do it consistently, but I've finished the entire level chain with just a sliver of health from it. Was good to learn that was possible.

Great find with the shortcut on Expo Center Reception, btw. I'm having a blast playing this again.

J.Y

2013-09-25 03:07:47 am

Yeah, that skip was really nice, and so easy to perform! It's often like that, the easiest to do are the hardest ones to find.

I haven't played that much SS yet, but I would absolutely do the fire skip on Destroyed Subway. It's so early in the game (and really easy once you get the hang of it), it wouldn't be so devastating if you would die there Wink

I'm amazed that we have found so much new stuff since I did my first run last year. New techniques like shooting buttons while pressing triangle, kneeling down when placing beacons on bombs, and new shortcuts like the one I found on Expo Center. My jaw literally dropped when I found this shortcut, and the same thing happend when I went OoB on Rohmer's Base. Still haven't found any use for it on a speedrun though

BaronHaynes

2013-09-25 03:22:46 am

Strange days, incredible days

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing re: the fire skip, since it's so early. The ones on Warehouse 76 might be more questionable, but if you can get consistent at them, maybe not so bad either.

Quote from J.Y:

New techniques like shooting buttons while pressing triangle, kneeling down when placing beacons on bombs

What do these do?

J.Y

2013-09-25 05:34:21 am

Normaly you would see a short sequence when Gabe push a button or open a box, but if you kneel or shoot with a automatic weapon while pressing triangle, the sequence will be shorter.
DanE found the kneeling trick, and Loopadict/Kopeekka found the shooting trick. Both were found in SF3, but it works almost the same in SF1.

Kneeling trick (around 1:50)
http://dl.speeddemosarchive.com/SyphonFilter3_eu_11432_HQ_mp4/SyphonFilter3_eu_11432_HQ_part13.mp4

Shooting trick (around 0:33)

With these tricks/glitches you can save a bit of time here and there, quite useful at levels such as Base Bunker where there's a lot of buttons to push Smiley

However, in SF1 the kneeling trick works only when planting beacons and planting C4 charges on Rohmer's Base. When opening boxes, it usually dosen't go any faster.

BaronHaynes

2013-09-25 07:10:11 am

Strange days, incredible days

Ahhh, very cool. I will have to practice that.

BaronHaynes

2013-09-26 04:44:11 am

Strange days, incredible days

J.Y and other SF runners: What are your thoughts on starting SS runs from choosing Georgia Street in the "select mission" window, rather than from the title screen? This would get rid of the time penalty for changing aim controls.

J.Y

2013-09-26 05:05:31 am

Yea, why not. It's so stupid that you can't change it before you start the game anyway.
But then again, aren't you supposed to show the title menu at the start of each run?

BaronHaynes

2013-09-26 05:22:37 am

Strange days, incredible days

Yeah, I'm not sure if it breaks SDA submission rules or not. I know Dishonored runners use a save file from the first frame of action to skip viewing a 1-minute cutscene at the start of every attempt. It would suck to disqualify the run for 5 seconds, but I think it'd be silly for that to be a disqualifier, too, since we're not using the in-game timer anyway. The Georgia Street briefing screen is the first player input, so it makes sense to me.

J.Y

Edit history:

J.Y: 2013-09-26 05:54:15 am

2013-09-26 05:53:27 am

Quote from Aaron_Haynes:

Yeah, I'm not sure if it breaks SDA submission rules or not. I know Dishonored runners use a save file from the first frame of action to skip viewing a 1-minute cutscene at the start of every attempt.

You have a point there, I think it's the same thing with Half-Life, they start recording after you've taken the ride inside the complex.

I think that this game, in a way, should have it's own rules.
I've thought about the timing of the run, we know that the SS runs are timed from when briefing screen appears til' you press save game, which is the SDA standard for segmented runs.
But after all, I think that you should not be forced to save as fast as possible, just because it's the normal way to do with segmented runs.
If the timer should stop when the save screen appears, you wouldn't have to worry about saving fast (which could make you choose the wrong file to overwrite).
I do think that the whole saving process should be shown though. This way it's easy to follow the process, as you are always loading your game from the same file, and it's easy to check if the inventory matches from level to level.

[quote="Aaron_Haynes"]Yeah, I'm not sure if it breaks SDA submission rules or not. I know Dishonored runners use a save file from the first frame of action to skip viewing a 1-minute cutscene at the start of every attempt.[/quote]

You have a point there, I think it's the same thing with Half-Life, they start recording after you've taken the ride inside the complex.

I think that this game, in a way, should have it's own rules.
I've thought about the timing of the run, we know that the SS runs are timed from when briefing screen appears til' you press save game, which is the SDA standard for segmented runs.
But after all, I think that you should not be forced to save as fast as possible, just because it's the normal way to do with segmented runs.
If the timer should stop when the save screen appears, you wouldn't have to worry about saving fast (which could make you choose the wrong file to overwrite).
I do think that the whole saving process should be shown though. This way it's easy to follow the process, as you are always loading your game from the same file, and it's easy to check if the inventory matches from level to level.

BaronHaynes

2013-09-26 07:54:33 am

Strange days, incredible days

Well, I think about RPG runs, and how the in-game timer runs during the save dialog; the runner has to know where the save slot is and be quick (although careful). Syphon Filter runs don't use the in-game timer since it's not accurate, but the save dialog is an unskippable part of the game in single-segment, so at least reaching it makes sense in segmented timing. I don't know who timed the two SF1 runs that have been accepted on the site and which method they used -- timer stopping when the save dialog appears or when the file is actually saved. Being required to rush saving is a little weird when the in-game timer doesn't matter, but it's the standard when it does, so I kind of get it.

However, here's another interesting thing. If the timer stops on the save dialog first appearing, segmented runs have an advantage over single-segment. If it stops on the actual save action, it's about even, because single-segment cancels the save dialog immediately (but then has to load the next level). So in practical terms, it kind of puts segmented and SS runs on even footing? Maybe?

(When I'm practicing ILs, I start the timer when pressing X on mission briefing and stop it after skipping the last cutscene, but that's just cause those are the easiest places to split for me.)

Well, I think about RPG runs, and how the in-game timer runs during the save dialog; the runner has to know where the save slot is and be quick (although careful). Syphon Filter runs don't use the in-game timer since it's not accurate, but the save dialog is an unskippable part of the game in single-segment, so at least [i]reaching[/i] it makes sense in segmented timing. I don't know who timed the two SF1 runs that have been accepted on the site and which method they used -- timer stopping when the save dialog appears or when the file is actually saved. Being required to rush saving is a little weird when the in-game timer doesn't matter, but it's the standard when it does, so I kind of get it.

However, here's another interesting thing. If the timer stops on the save dialog first appearing, segmented runs have an advantage over single-segment. If it stops on the actual save action, it's about even, because single-segment cancels the save dialog immediately (but then has to load the next level). So in practical terms, it kind of puts segmented and SS runs on even footing? Maybe?

(When I'm practicing ILs, I start the timer when pressing X on mission briefing and stop it after skipping the last cutscene, but that's just cause those are the easiest places to split for me.)

DanE

2013-09-26 01:12:52 pm

Fjölpärsk

First off: glad to see you working on a SS run Aaron! Smiley

Imo, it would look better if you started a SS run from the "Main Menu" or whatever you want to call it, rather than starting off at the first briefing screen. I'm not really getting what you're looking for in the latter post about comparing segmented to SS. We all agree that it's stupid to be requierd to save as fast as possible in a segmented since the in-game timer is of no use, so in that case I would think that the timing should be slightly different between segmented and SS.

By the way, wouldn't it be fantastic to actually do a IL for this game, starting every level with just the 9mm, sniper and taser?

J.Y

2013-09-26 01:42:41 pm

Aha, I see. I'm not into RPG's so didn't know about that.
The timing method currently used starts the timer when the briefing screen appears and stops when you have selected which file you want to owerwrite and pressed save (exept for the first and last level: on Georgia Street the timer starts when you gain control of Gabe, and on Missile Silo the timer stops when the video that shows Rohmer dying appears).

About different timing between segmented runs and SS: I kind of get what you mean, but it takes longer time to save a game then just pressing "no" when you get the option to save or not. So either way you put it, it's going to be a little bit different between segmented runs and SS.

I've also thought about doing a IL, it would be fun to give it a try, just to see how much harder some of the levels would be Wink

BaronHaynes

2013-09-26 09:08:12 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Quote from DanE:

First off: glad to see you working on a SS run Aaron! Smiley

Thanks! It's been really fun getting back into this game.

Quote:

Imo, it would look better if you started a SS run from the "Main Menu" or whatever you want to call it, rather than starting off at the first briefing screen.

I agree it would look better, but it also means changing the aiming controls (and in my case, turning vibration off because it's broken on my controller and just clicks really loudly at weird times) at the start of every attempt. Which puts anyone who's more used to non-inverted aiming at a time disadvantage.

Quote:

I'm not really getting what you're looking for in the latter post about comparing segmented to SS. We all agree that it's stupid to be requierd to save as fast as possible in a segmented since the in-game timer is of no use, so in that case I would think that the timing should be slightly different between segmented and SS.

Okay, here's where I'm coming from: In a SS run, you have to pass through the save dialog and the loading screen that follows it to get to the next mission. This is time included in a SS run that is avoided in a segmented run. If the loading screen for the next level is 5 seconds, that's an extra 1:35 added to single-segment times over segmented ones. So if SS times ever get competitive with segmented times, there'll always be uncertainty about which run is better, since segmented would have an advantage of not counting save screens and between-level loading. Counting the save screen in the timing is weird (and annoying), but it sort of evens out this discrepancy.

Maybe it's not the best way to account for the difference, but I'm just thinking ahead to when one of us starts getting close to 1:09 SS. The fact that SDA includes the save action in its timing has never bothered me too much (I was operating under that assumption in my 2006 run, which is why I rush all the memory card screens), though I do understand what's frustrating about it. But I guess I always considered the time lost from saving to be the necessary price for doing a segmented run, since you HAVE to save. It's the defining characteristic of the category.

I dunno if any of that is helpful, but I can kinda see both sides of the argument. Although if the timing method DID change, to not force players to rush a saving screen, I wouldn't complain. Mostly I'm just more interested in SS runs right now. Tongue

Quote:

By the way, wouldn't it be fantastic to actually do a IL for this game, starting every level with just the 9mm, sniper and taser?

I was thinking about that, it might be an interesting challenge. It would sure change tactics for all those levels we usually bring the K3G4 to.

[quote="DanE"]First off: glad to see you working on a SS run Aaron! :)[/quote]
Thanks! It's been really fun getting back into this game.

[quote]Imo, it would look better if you started a SS run from the "Main Menu" or whatever you want to call it, rather than starting off at the first briefing screen.[/quote]
I agree it would look better, but it also means changing the aiming controls (and in my case, turning vibration off because it's broken on my controller and just clicks really loudly at weird times) at the start of every attempt. Which puts anyone who's more used to non-inverted aiming at a time disadvantage.

[quote]I'm not really getting what you're looking for in the latter post about comparing segmented to SS. We all agree that it's stupid to be requierd to save as fast as possible in a segmented since the in-game timer is of no use, so in that case I would think that the timing should be slightly different between segmented and SS.[/quote]
Okay, here's where I'm coming from: In a SS run, you have to pass through the save dialog and the loading screen that follows it to get to the next mission. This is time included in a SS run that is avoided in a segmented run. If the loading screen for the next level is 5 seconds, that's an extra 1:35 added to single-segment times over segmented ones. So if SS times ever get competitive with segmented times, there'll always be uncertainty about which run is better, since segmented would have an advantage of not counting save screens and between-level loading. Counting the save screen in the timing is weird (and annoying), but it sort of evens out this discrepancy.

Maybe it's not the best way to account for the difference, but I'm just thinking ahead to when one of us starts getting close to 1:09 SS. The fact that SDA includes the save action in its timing has never bothered me [i]too[/i] much (I was operating under that assumption in my 2006 run, which is why I rush all the memory card screens), though I do understand what's frustrating about it. But I guess I always considered the time lost from saving to be the necessary price for doing a segmented run, since you HAVE to save. It's the defining characteristic of the category.

I dunno if any of that is helpful, but I can kinda see both sides of the argument. Although if the timing method DID change, to not force players to rush a saving screen, I wouldn't complain. Mostly I'm just more interested in SS runs right now. :P

[quote]By the way, wouldn't it be fantastic to actually do a IL for this game, starting every level with just the 9mm, sniper and taser?[/quote]
I was thinking about that, it might be an interesting challenge. It would sure change tactics for all those levels we usually bring the K3G4 to.

Hsanrb

2013-09-26 11:04:55 pm

Quote from Aaron_Haynes:

Yeah, I'm not sure if it breaks SDA submission rules or not. I know Dishonored runners use a save file from the first frame of action to skip viewing a 1-minute cutscene at the start of every attempt. It would suck to disqualify the run for 5 seconds, but I think it'd be silly for that to be a disqualifier, too, since we're not using the in-game timer anyway. The Georgia Street briefing screen is the first player input, so it makes sense to me.

Just gonna chime in and show my support for the run and point out the Super Metroid run on site starts with 0:00 file at Ceres Station, so I'd assume as long as you start on the first mission it would be ok. SDA timing would be moment of first control, either exiting out of briefing, or first frame of Gabe movement, unless stuff that goes on during the opening cutscene (when it zooms to places in the city) effects where enemies are.

J.Y

Edit history:

J.Y: 2013-09-27 02:35:44 am

2013-09-27 02:31:19 am

Quote:

I agree it would look better, but it also means changing the aiming controls (and in my case, turning vibration off because it's broken on my controller and just clicks really loudly at weird times) at the start of every attempt. Which puts anyone who's more used to non-inverted aiming at a time disadvantage

I don't think that turning off the vibration is really an excuse for not starting on the Main menu, you should take out the broken parts or get a new controller instead Wink

But if we choose to just reset the level from the pause screen, then the same thing should apply to segmented runs. That way I wouldn't either have to change in the middle of a level.

Quote:

Okay, here's where I'm coming from: In a SS run, you have to pass through the save dialog and the loading screen that follows it to get to the next mission. This is time included in a SS run that is avoided in a segmented run. If the loading screen for the next level is 5 seconds, that's an extra 1:35 added to single-segment times over segmented ones. So if SS times ever get competitive with segmented times, there'll always be uncertainty about which run is better, since segmented would have an advantage of not counting save screens and between-level loading. Counting the save screen in the timing is weird (and annoying), but it sort of evens out this discrepancy.

I'm not sure if I follow you here, do you mean that you should also count the acutal time it takes the game to make the save, or am I misunderstadning you?
But one thing is for sure, an SS time will never be better then a Segmented time, regardless how you time it. There is just to much risky stuff you can do in a Segmented run that would be to hard to try in a SS.

[quote]I agree it would look better, but it also means changing the aiming controls (and in my case, turning vibration off because it's broken on my controller and just clicks really loudly at weird times) at the start of every attempt. Which puts anyone who's more used to non-inverted aiming at a time disadvantage[/quote]
I don't think that turning off the vibration is really an excuse for not starting on the Main menu, you should take out the broken parts or get a new controller instead ;)
But if we choose to just reset the level from the pause screen, then the same thing should apply to segmented runs. That way I wouldn't either have to change in the middle of a level.

[quote]Okay, here's where I'm coming from: In a SS run, you have to pass through the save dialog and the loading screen that follows it to get to the next mission. This is time included in a SS run that is avoided in a segmented run. If the loading screen for the next level is 5 seconds, that's an extra 1:35 added to single-segment times over segmented ones. So if SS times ever get competitive with segmented times, there'll always be uncertainty about which run is better, since segmented would have an advantage of not counting save screens and between-level loading. Counting the save screen in the timing is weird (and annoying), but it sort of evens out this discrepancy.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I follow you here, do you mean that you should also count the acutal time it takes the game to make the save, or am I misunderstadning you?
But one thing is for sure, an SS time will never be better then a Segmented time, regardless how you time it. There is just to much risky stuff you can do in a Segmented run that would be to hard to try in a SS.

DanE @ Work

2013-10-09 06:32:38 am

Just going to bump this thread real quick too see if anything interesting have happend yet. How are you progressing so far Aaron, and do you have any results that you want to share with us?

BaronHaynes

2013-10-09 10:45:37 am

Strange days, incredible days

Weird, I thought I already posted this.

Quote from J.Y:

Quote:

I agree it would look better, but it also means changing the aiming controls (and in my case, turning vibration off because it's broken on my controller and just clicks really loudly at weird times) at the start of every attempt. Which puts anyone who's more used to non-inverted aiming at a time disadvantage

I don't think that turning off the vibration is really an excuse for not starting on the Main menu, you should take out the broken parts or get a new controller instead Wink

It's not an excuse by itself, no, just an extra bonus if we're already allowing for mission select. (Again, assuming SDA allows that.)

Quote from J.Y:

Quote:

Okay, here's where I'm coming from: In a SS run, you have to pass through the save dialog and the loading screen that follows it to get to the next mission. This is time included in a SS run that is avoided in a segmented run. If the loading screen for the next level is 5 seconds, that's an extra 1:35 added to single-segment times over segmented ones. So if SS times ever get competitive with segmented times, there'll always be uncertainty about which run is better, since segmented would have an advantage of not counting save screens and between-level loading. Counting the save screen in the timing is weird (and annoying), but it sort of evens out this discrepancy.

I'm not sure if I follow you here, do you mean that you should also count the acutal time it takes the game to make the save, or am I misunderstadning you?

I assumed that was already happening in the SDA timing, actually, and misread your post which indicated otherwise. If timing stops when you tell the game to save, rather than on "save complete", that hadn't occurred to me, but it makes more sense.

I get what you're saying about not including the save dialog in the timing so we don't have to rush it. But I understand the SDA position too, which is that saving is a required action in a segmented run, so it's a small penalty you pay to make the run possible.
I guess I'd prefer not including it in the timing, if I had a choice, and stopping timing when the save screen appears. It's weird to need strats for saving quickly, and to penalize a potentially great run because it lost 30 seconds overall to choosing a file to overwrite when the in-game timer doesn't even matter.

Weird, I thought I already posted this.

[quote="J.Y"][quote]I agree it would look better, but it also means changing the aiming controls (and in my case, turning vibration off because it's broken on my controller and just clicks really loudly at weird times) at the start of every attempt. Which puts anyone who's more used to non-inverted aiming at a time disadvantage[/quote]
I don't think that turning off the vibration is really an excuse for not starting on the Main menu, you should take out the broken parts or get a new controller instead ;)[/quote]

It's not an excuse by itself, no, just an extra bonus if we're already allowing for mission select. (Again, assuming SDA allows that.)

[quote="J.Y"][quote]Okay, here's where I'm coming from: In a SS run, you have to pass through the save dialog and the loading screen that follows it to get to the next mission. This is time included in a SS run that is avoided in a segmented run. If the loading screen for the next level is 5 seconds, that's an extra 1:35 added to single-segment times over segmented ones. So if SS times ever get competitive with segmented times, there'll always be uncertainty about which run is better, since segmented would have an advantage of not counting save screens and between-level loading. Counting the save screen in the timing is weird (and annoying), but it sort of evens out this discrepancy.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I follow you here, do you mean that you should also count the acutal time it takes the game to make the save, or am I misunderstadning you?[/quote]

I assumed that was already happening in the SDA timing, actually, and misread your post which indicated otherwise. If timing stops when you tell the game to save, rather than on "save complete", that hadn't occurred to me, but it makes more sense.

I get what you're saying about not including the save dialog in the timing so we don't have to rush it. But I understand the SDA position too, which is that saving is a required action in a segmented run, so it's a small penalty you pay to make the run possible. 
I guess I'd prefer not including it in the timing, if I had a choice, and stopping timing when the save screen appears. It's weird to need strats for saving quickly, and to penalize a potentially great run because it lost 30 seconds overall to choosing a file to overwrite when the in-game timer doesn't even matter.

BaronHaynes

2013-10-09 10:50:25 am

Strange days, incredible days

@DanE, not much to report, just been practicing the first two level chains for the most part, trying to match J.Y's times. The Phagan skip in level 6 is surprisingly precise, and I forgot how unresponsive the controls can be in this game.

I think you can save a few seconds in the destroyed subway if you get good guard spawn luck while protecting the CBDC agent. If you stay near the end of the hallway and kill the guard who appears there (if he appears quickly enough), you can be moving into the tunnel when the Objective Complete message appears.

J.Y

Edit history:

J.Y: 2013-10-09 11:33:20 am

2013-10-09 11:33:07 am

Well, on all segments I've done so far I have saved as fast as I can, just in case haha. If you know where to save, it's not that hard to do it quick, so I guess that it dosen't matter as much as I thought first. But we can leave that for now.

One thing I've changed from the last run is that I restart the levels from the pause menu, rather than quitting the game and load the save from there (exept for the first level which starts at the title screen). That way I don't need to pause in the middle of the level to change to normal aim, and it dosen't take so long time to restart a segment. I figured that if one would do that in a SS, the same thing should apply to a segmented run.

About Destroyed Subway: I have done some testing on this myself, you can save a little bit of time if you get a good spawn, but when you enter the tracks, the CDBC agent dissapears from the radar and the mission is a failure, so you can't be that far away from him.

BaronHaynes

2013-10-09 09:26:42 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Oh cool, I guess when you restart a level partway into a chain, it keeps the ammo and health/armor from the save you originally loaded?

I've also played around with a route that gets the grenades in the first level, just to see. The only place it potentially saved time was Kravitch, and that's questionable. Still, was worth a shot. Tongue

J.Y

2013-10-10 03:29:37 am

Quote from Aaron_Haynes:

Oh cool, I guess when you restart a level partway into a chain, it keeps the ammo and health/armor from the save you originally loaded?

Yes, thats right. This method has one flaw though: sometimes the game skips the video shown before you gain control. This saves a couple of seconds, but it's unfair to compare it to a normal run, therefore I've always restarted the level when it happend to me. Maybe it has someting to do with me playing it on a PS2 slim this time Tongue

BaronHaynes

2013-10-10 03:08:19 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Yeah, good call. I've never seen that happen from a straight memory card load.

J.Y

Edit history:

J.Y: 2013-10-11 06:01:56 am

2013-10-11 06:00:29 am

Expo Center Reception are going to be at least one minutes faster than last time! Last night, me and DanE found a way to get past Phagan even earlier then before. This saves about a minute just in the first part of the level! Video coming soon Smiley

BaronHaynes

2013-10-12 11:33:20 am

Strange days, incredible days

Awesome! How does it compare in terms of difficulty to the other method?

J.Y

2013-10-12 03:42:08 pm

Here's the new skip:

Not the best run I've made, but you get the point. It's harder to do than the first skip I found, so it could be a bit risky to do in a SS. Still, with some training I think that it wouldn't be as hard as some other skips, like rolling through the burning vehicle on Base Escpe.

I haven't tested it out as much yet so it's probably improvable. For example, I don't think that you need to kill the guard that walks back and forth in the Egypt exhibit. I know that DanE has made it through without killing him, but it's somewhat of a lottery because most of the times he starts to fire at you after you've passed him.