Super Mario Sunshine - October 11th, 2009

2009-10-13 04:36:16 pm

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Thiradell, I know you're extremely frustrated right now, but don't take the criticisms personally and just remember that you owe absolutely NOTHING to any of us here. If you are fine with the run, leave it be and be proud. Perhaps it wouldn't be posted if you didn't improve 14, and chances are even if you did you would probably still get flak from some of your audience. Oh well. Just do what you can and don't sweat it.

Shuda51

2009-10-13 05:50:17 pm

The Running Failure

Thiradell, one of the rules of Murphy's law is that even when you try to please everyone, someone's not going to like it. I can see where you are coming from in the improvment standpoint, but that's just wrong. The other runner did it Single Segment, playing for 5 hours straight. You could take breaks during your run, he was glued to his tv screen for 5 hours.

If you think your run was great, but everyone else says it needs improvment, then improve it. Try to prove to those people that yes, you can do this game fast enough and mistake-free enough to meet even the highest standards of the site. If you give up now, then that sets a bad example to new runners or those thinking about running and ruins your own credibility.

On the topic of doing other things....I'm doing college courses, working on 3 other sites, working on a run i might consider putting on here, spending time with family, working on some programming, and several other things. Yes, your time gets limited. Segmented runs are probably better for a situation like yours, because you can do each part of the run at different times.

Summary: Appease those who say it needs to be fixed, and fix it. Don't give up. It will take many tries, but the final product is worth the effort. And for God's sake, don't argue. Who knows? Give it some more time, and you might beat your submission by a huge amount.

Thiradell, one of the rules of Murphy's law is that even when you try to please everyone, someone's not going to like it. I can see where you are coming from in the improvment standpoint, but that's just wrong. The other runner did it Single Segment, playing for 5 hours straight. You could take breaks during your run, he was glued to his tv screen for 5 hours.

If you think your run was great, but everyone else says it needs improvment, then improve it. Try to prove to those people that yes, you can do this game fast enough and mistake-free enough to meet even the highest standards of the site. If you give up now, then that sets a bad example to new runners or those thinking about running and ruins your own credibility.

On the topic of doing other things....I'm doing college courses, working on 3 other sites, working on a run i might consider putting on here, spending time with family, working on some programming, and several other things. Yes, your time gets limited. Segmented runs are probably better for a situation like yours, because you can do each part of the run at different times.

Summary: Appease those who say it needs to be fixed, and fix it. Don't give up. It will take many tries, but the final product is worth the effort. And for God's sake, don't argue. Who knows? Give it some more time, and you might beat your submission by a huge amount.

Cyberwrath

2009-10-13 11:45:12 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I decided to watch this speedrun on Youtube today b/c of all the commotion (I wasn't a verifier).

First I'd like to congratulate Thiradell on a very good speedrun! It obviously took a lot of time to plan out and execute, and you should be proud of what you've accomplished.

I was pretty shocked to see this run was rejected because of mistakes. There were 2 moments in the run I cringed a tiny bit, and that was the roller coaster balloon shooting in Pinna Park (which is harder than you'd think) and the Slot Machine area and the Sun picture in the basement of Sirena Beach (which is random as hell). I mighta done a few more attempts to lessen the time a bit, but would have been fine keeping all other segments. Doing all of Pinna Park in one segment must have been rough, only to have balloon popping at the very end. I'm pretty surprised to see how much quality standards have gone up at this site since I started coming here, and I've been here since Metroid Prime was the only speedrun this site hosted. A few years ago this run would be posted, no questions asked.

I'm not sure if my opinion counts for anything since I wasn't an official verifier, but I think it's wrong not to post this video to the SDA, especially when no 100% segmented run even exists. If anything, it'll give people a good benchmark for people to improve upon on a future run.

Anyway, I highly recommend you choose to redo the segment everyone's asking for if that will allow it to go on the site, since it truly was a great 100% run and it'd be like painting a portrait and not hanging it IMO. Congrats again!

I decided to watch this speedrun on Youtube today b/c of all the commotion (I wasn't a verifier).

First I'd like to congratulate Thiradell on a very good speedrun! It obviously took a lot of time to plan out and execute, and you should be proud of what you've accomplished.

I was pretty shocked to see this run was rejected because of mistakes. There were 2 moments in the run I cringed a tiny bit, and that was the roller coaster balloon shooting in Pinna Park (which is harder than you'd think) and the Slot Machine area and the Sun picture in the basement of Sirena Beach (which is random as hell). I mighta done a few more attempts to lessen the time a bit, but would have been fine keeping all other segments. Doing all of Pinna Park in one segment must have been rough, only to have balloon popping at the very end. I'm pretty surprised to see how much quality standards have gone up at this site since I started coming here, and I've been here since Metroid Prime was the only speedrun this site hosted. A few years ago this run would be posted, no questions asked.

I'm not sure if my opinion counts for anything since I wasn't an official verifier, but I think it's wrong not to post this video to the SDA, especially when no 100% segmented run even exists. If anything, it'll give people a good benchmark for people to improve upon on a future run.

Anyway, I highly recommend you choose to redo the segment everyone's asking for if that will allow it to go on the site, since it truly was a great 100% run and it'd be like painting a portrait and not hanging it IMO. Congrats again!

Wak

(user is banned)

Wak

Edit history:

Wak: 2009-10-14 09:04:20 am

2009-10-14 08:36:12 am

Quoted from the FAQ:

Quote:

Do you post everything that's submitted?

(bla bla bla.) Note that it is possible for a run to be faster than the previous run in the same category and still be rejected. Perhaps the runner used a faster system, but otherwise the play quality was worse.

Aside from this, I had my shitload of attempts for every single speedrun I have done from now. I practiced Zelda alttp any% for 4 years, guess how much attempts are behind this?

my alttp segmented run, I restarted segment 13 over 200 times in one single day. I was usually restarting after 2 mins because it was the hard part.

Tigger77

2009-10-14 09:34:43 am

I survived MIKE-Fest 1

This quote isen't right for this case because it exist no run in the 100% Segmented categorie only a SS.

I think the standarts for a Mario game are insaanly hight but look at the 64 mario thats fucking awsom with NO MISTAKES.
IMO I think it's a good thing the standarts are that high even if this mean we will never have a 100% segmentet Sunshine run. (I hope you don't quit speedrunig and submitt a better one)

ridd3r.

2009-10-14 12:01:50 pm

we have lift off

Quote:

I think the standarts for a Mario game are insaanly hight but look at the 64 mario thats fucking awsom with NO MISTAKES.

No run has no mistakes, not even TAS's and runs are obsoleted all the time.

Quote:

(bla bla bla.) Note that it is possible for a run to be faster than the previous run in the same category and still be rejected. Perhaps the runner used a faster system, but otherwise the play quality was worse.

How can the runner use a faster system when this is a GameCube run... That quote is more for PC runs, not console runs. Also of course the old run is SS and this is not. If a run is faster using no more skips then it should be accepted, if it uses a ground breaking skip but the game quality is really bad then it would be rejected.
It's unfair to compare the number of attempts required for one run with another, especially when you don't know how many attempts were actually done for this run.

Wak

(user is banned)

2009-10-14 12:09:48 pm

I didn't know it wasn't an improvement of a really existing category, I missed that part.

And I don't think it applies more to PC games than other games... I mean, if somebody finds a 5 mins improvement over the mario 64 run, but only submits a 1 min improvement run, it will probably get rejected, no?

ZenicReverie

2009-10-14 12:56:10 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Wak:

I didn't know it wasn't an improvement of a really existing category, I missed that part.

And I don't think it applies more to PC games than other games... I mean, if somebody finds a 5 mins improvement over the mario 64 run, but only submits a 1 min improvement run, it will probably get rejected, no?

Yeah, it's possible, but I don't think there's really a point in arguing about it anymore. Mainly this run was rejected because of obvious mistakes. The runner has said he'll be redoing the segment that caused the most contention, and once that's done the run should go up.

In general, obvious mistakes in segmented runs usually mean a rejection. But, that all depends on how much luck was manipulated, how bad the mistake looks, and how much time it costs. I've accepted a few mistakes in my current segmented run, mostly due to luck, but there was one 1-2 second mistake I thought I corrected in another recording, but apparently I didn't, coming back days later and moving on to the next few segments before I realized it. I'm about halfway through now though, and I feel like finishing it up and submitting it rather than starting over. The game has an in-game timer, so it's not easy to go back and redo segments individually, and with only three save slots I only have a two segment lead. I hope the mistakes don't cause a rejection, but I'd understand if they did.

I'm glad Thiradell is able and willing to go back and redo the segment because I don't know if I'd take the time to do that in my case.

[quote="Wak"]
I didn't know it wasn't an improvement of a really existing category, I missed that part.

And I don't think it applies more to PC games than other games... I mean, if somebody finds a 5 mins improvement over the mario 64 run, but only submits a 1 min improvement run, it will probably get rejected, no?
[/quote]
Yeah, it's possible, but I don't think there's really a point in arguing about it anymore. Mainly this run was rejected because of obvious mistakes. The runner has said he'll be redoing the segment that caused the most contention, and once that's done the run should go up.

In general, obvious mistakes in segmented runs usually mean a rejection. But, that all depends on how much luck was manipulated, how bad the mistake looks, and how much time it costs. I've accepted a few mistakes in my current segmented run, mostly due to luck, but there was one 1-2 second mistake I thought I corrected in another recording, but apparently I didn't, coming back days later and moving on to the next few segments before I realized it. I'm about halfway through now though, and I feel like finishing it up and submitting it rather than starting over. The game has an in-game timer, so it's not easy to go back and redo segments individually, and with only three save slots I only have a two segment lead. I hope the mistakes don't cause a rejection, but I'd understand if they did.

I'm glad Thiradell is able and willing to go back and redo the segment because I don't know if I'd take the time to do that in my case.

Satoryu

2009-10-14 01:00:48 pm

Visually Appealing

Quote from ridd3r.:

How can the runner use a faster system when this is a GameCube run....

Wii is backwards compatible. Don't know if it improves load times or anything like that with this game, though.

arkarian

2009-10-14 01:21:02 pm

gamelogs.org

Quote from ridd3r.:

No run has no mistakes

that's not true. my myst run has 0 mistakes and probably several other short runs do too. clue comes to mind.

Thiradell

2009-10-14 01:39:42 pm

Mr. Twishall

Your Myst run could be said to have mistakes in that it could be done faster. Your overshooting one of the levers and losing .1 is a mistake, IMO. And please don't compare Clue to this, that's hardly a run.

ZenicReverie

2009-10-14 06:38:49 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Thiradell:

Your Myst run could be said to have mistakes in that it could be done faster. Your overshooting one of the levers and losing .1 is a mistake, IMO. And please don't compare Clue to this, that's hardly a run.

Hardly a run, but hardly any mistakes.

I don't think Super Mario Bros. has any mistakes. You can't really compare games that don't share the same or similar engine.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-10-15 12:40:39 am

2009-10-15 12:22:14 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I never watched any runs for this game, but if in fact this one is "better" than both of the runs on the site (even if they are separate categories and would NOT be obsoleted), IMHO it would be a bit silly to reject this one. OTOH, it would be a bit silly to complain about the rejection instead of just redoing segment 14. All the comments like "I put thousands of attempts into my run, man up" and "I'm sorry I have a life" aren't helping things. Those comments aren't very relevant here.

Quote from Thiradell:

Heh, then I'll put out one run every two/three years and be completely sick of the game when I'm done. No thank you. Maybe I'll try single-segment runs from now on.

Just my two cents, but if you're busy, segmented runs are easier to produce, especially for a longer game like this. You're going to find it tough to block out that much time at once. With segmented you can make slow but steady progress if you must. And since you're dealing with small chunks, it won't take as long and you won't be sick of the game when you're done. And I'd say if you are sick of a game after running it, it reflects poorly on the game itself (unskippable cutscenes and so forth) rather than the act of running. Wink

Quote from Prognosis_4:

If you're going over 100 retries for a segment, it's either because you're trying to pull off a really improbable trick (eg/ geothermal core in MP) or are torturing yourself to save a few seconds you really didn't need to.

It depends on the game and on the level of quality desired by the runner, but I really disagree here. Many people (me included) have spent up to 1000 or more retries for single-segment runs even. Sometimes it's to pull off a trick that saves several minutes. It really depends on the game, and you can't just throw out a blanket number like 100.

Quote from Cyberwrath:

I'm pretty surprised to see how much quality standards have gone up at this site since I started coming here, and I've been here since Metroid Prime was the only speedrun this site hosted. A few years ago this run would be posted, no questions asked.

I don't think you're saying this, but quality standards haven't been going up steadily or anything. There is no arms race. It used to be there was essentially no quality standards at all (rejections were video quality based), then suddenly when Mike took over for judging, now there is some. It hasn't changed since then, and any perceived differences between runs just has to do with the makeup of the individual verifiers, of course (as well as the natural tendencies for speedrunners to get better over time). I'm extremely surprised even with different verifiers, the level of consistency between groups of verifiers is so similar. It's a good indication that most people are on the same page.

I never watched any runs for this game, but if in fact this one is "better" than both of the runs on the site (even if they are separate categories and would NOT be obsoleted), IMHO it would be a bit silly to reject this one. OTOH, it would be a bit silly to complain about the rejection instead of just redoing segment 14. All the comments like "I put thousands of attempts into my run, man up" and "I'm sorry I have a life" aren't helping things. Those comments aren't very relevant here.

[quote="Thiradell"]
Heh, then I'll put out one run every two/three years and be completely sick of the game when I'm done. No thank you. Maybe I'll try single-segment runs from now on.
[/quote]
Just my two cents, but if you're busy, segmented runs are easier to produce, especially for a longer game like this. You're going to find it tough to block out that much time at once. With segmented you can make slow but steady progress if you must. And since you're dealing with small chunks, it won't take as long and you won't be sick of the game when you're done. And I'd say if you are sick of a game after running it, it reflects poorly on the game itself (unskippable cutscenes and so forth) rather than the act of running. ;)

[quote="Prognosis_4"]
If you're going over 100 retries for a segment, it's either because you're trying to pull off a really improbable trick (eg/ geothermal core in MP) or are torturing yourself to save a few seconds you really didn't need to.[/quote]
It depends on the game and on the level of quality desired by the runner, but I really disagree here. Many people (me included) have spent up to 1000 or more retries for single-segment runs even. Sometimes it's to pull off a trick that saves several minutes. It really depends on the game, and you can't just throw out a blanket number like 100.

[quote="Cyberwrath"]
I'm pretty surprised to see how much quality standards have gone up at this site since I started coming here, and I've been here since Metroid Prime was the only speedrun this site hosted. A few years ago this run would be posted, no questions asked.[/quote]
I don't think you're saying this, but quality standards haven't been going up steadily or anything. There is no arms race. It used to be there was essentially no quality standards at all (rejections were video quality based), then suddenly when Mike took over for judging, now there is some. It hasn't changed since then, and any perceived differences between runs just has to do with the makeup of the individual verifiers, of course (as well as the natural tendencies for speedrunners to get better over time). I'm extremely surprised even with different verifiers, the level of consistency between groups of verifiers is so similar. It's a good indication that most people are on the same page.