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My feelings on The Demon Rush
http://speeddemosarchive.com/MarioSunshine.html

100% run

Verifier Responses

Quote:
This is a great run... it's definately not PERFECT but its well done.  I like his route; there are a few mistakes that I think are due to just pure sloppiness (i.e. getting hit by the wind while collecting the red coins in Bianco Hills), but I wouldn't reject the run for them.  It's an improvment over the old run and its well done for the most part. There's no cheating, the segments are consistent, and there are no audio/video problems.  VLC only had trouble reading segment one.

Accept.


Quote:
Quality (Capture)
It’s fine I guess.
The segments that are screwed because of that DVD problem are 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, and 43, which are missing the sound.

Quality (Gameplay)
Since I’m behind on this one again, I’ll just point out the mistakes. Assume everything else is acceptable.

Segment 5
It takes him a while to hose down the first red X, and he gets hit by two wind monsters.

Segment 8
Misses a ground pound on the HUGE red coin switch.

Segment 13
He screws up the timing with one of the ducks on the mirror and has to squirt him again to get him off. At least they were right next to each other.
Activates the map (stops the game) while screwing around while waiting for that guy to cross the finish line.

Segment 14
He forgets what he’s doing while gathering the 100 coins and the location of the bananas, costing a fair amount of time.
Even worse, he forgets a pear for Yoshi later on and has to go back to get one.
The part that sticks out like a fat chick in a Victoria’s Secret catalogue is the balloon shooting at the end. The runner misses a ton of shots. I think it’s because it’s at the end of a long segment, but I believe he needs to practice this a lot more. It’s awful.

Segment 16
The runner displays a nice golden shower on the boat to kill some time.

Segment 30
He gets terrible luck for the “?” puzzle. Even worse than the 5 hour SS run I think.
He also keeps a segment where he gets a “?” on the slot machine while fighting the ghost. Twice.

Segment 33
He comes so, so close to getting that eel thing in two phases. If he pressed himself, he could probably do it.

Segments 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43
These segments are missing the sound.
These segments (except 43) also have a fair amount of mistakes in them (which the runner notes in his comments), but none which are going to make me reject it outright.

Timing
I’ll time it if you need me to.

Importance
Long segments and ones that rely on luck are clearly not this runner’s strength. There are quite a few mistakes in most of these segments. I just noted the major ones above, but after a while, I stopped looking into them so much and just decided to finish it. Things being in the optimal positions in certain segments don’t really make up for a lot of the mistakes. Despite this, I would actually let this run pass if it were not for segment 14. I know it’s long and takes quite a bit of work, but the result we’re given looks really bad, especially being segmented. Since there are nearly a minute worth of mistakes in this segment alone, I’m rejecting this run. Actually, if he were to just redo that segment, I would probably change my mind, though segment 30 should have been trimmed drastically as well.


Quote:
I honestly don't know what to say.

Lot of things should be re-done. You didn't aimed for best time, in a segmented speedrun, you should (of course, some exceptions could be done in those freaking long segments).

You could do most of these things without errors, especialy short segments.

Also, you should've removed the Memory Card after loading the data, then quickly put it again before saving, like when you get the last star. Doing this you could've saved arround 0.11-0.25 each time you don't save. so if you calculate it right, you have lost pretty much time in the whole speedrun.

Veredict: Reject


Quote:
I really should have verified this a while ago...

Anyway, I watched the vids about 2 months ago, so I don't have exact details or specific comments for each segment. A couple of things I do remember:

- Generally good standard of play, with a good route, but some segments could be improved.
- Has some very long segments which tended to have 1-2 minutes of errors. ~5% of time in a segment as mistakes isn't too bad and SS runs of similar length with a similar amount of mistakes have been accepted (but it's still a bit meh). As said before, it might have been quicker to separate these to reduce the number of mistakes, but more time would be lost getting to the location.
- Occasionally excessive segmentation. Yes, it may have been the quickest way to do some shines, but in some cases it looked like it was a first successful attempt, with obvious and easily improvable mistakes (I may be being a bit harsh here...)
- Video quality was fine and I saw no cheating.

... which leads to an acceptance from me. I wouldn't reject the run but if the runner wanted to improve some bits I wouldn't object to it.

(Also, I may be being harsh on the quality of play. As said, it was a while ago when I watched it and my memory might have made it seem worse than it was.)


Decision: Reject

Reason: The run has too many mistakes for a segmented run.

The run is available upon request until November 11th. PM me if you want the run.
Thread title:  
I remember I watched this a couple months ago or so on Youtube, and there were definitely parts that confused me as to why he kept them. A lot of the run was good, but there was a lot in the run that wasn't. I'd love to see it improved and up to acceptance standards, because with improvements this would be a great run.
Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2009-10-12 11:12:47 am
My feelings on The Demon Rush
This is what the runner had to say in response to the third verifier.

Quote:
This response is hilarious. I was going as fast as I could obviously. I'm not going to be taking out and putting in the Memory Card while the GameCube is on, that can corrupt data and the thing he said saves a miniscule amount of time. He didn't give any examples of errors he think should be improved, just lazily hated on the run. I would definitely like to know specifically what the "lots of things that should be redone" are. I would say this response is worthy of being thrown out, which would make the vote 2-1 in favor of acceptance.


Third verifier: If you don't feel like revealing yourself, you can either PM me or send me an IM as a response.

EDIT: Oops I meant third. :-[
Edit history:
TheQuietMan: 2009-10-12 11:38:32 am
Complete. Global. Saturation.
Since Mike edited his post, I'll do the same here.

Quote:
I would say this response is worthy of being thrown out, which would make the vote 2-1 in favor of acceptance.


Verifiers votes can't be "thrown out". If we're going to talk about lack of elaboration, there are some from the irc channel which are just like "I watched that run. It's good. Accept." Granted, this is about rejection, which should be much more detailed. But the general consensus is that this run was filled with mistakes, some small, some large. The overall amount was what killed this run.

I will agree with that memory card trick being really dumb though. It's a big risk for little time saved.
Talk to the Hand
I think he meant third verifier, not fourth.

That said, it's not always about just a simple vote. One well-argued reject can override multiple hasty "I like, accept"s.
Maybe if he followed the advice of the 2nd verifier and redid segment 14.
Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2009-10-12 11:23:52 am
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Yeah I meant the third verifier, whoops.

naskamikaze: That's exactly what I told the runner to do.

Also, the verifier responded:

Quote:
First of all, if you were playing as fast as you could, then this means you should train more (i'm not trying to offend you or anything like that).

About the Memory Card thing:
What i meant was that you can put out the Memory Card AFTER you finish loading, meaning that your data won't get corrupted, and you can put the Memory Card in BEFORE saving (Each time you get a shine, you are forced to see a long enough scene, that is the momment where you should put the Memory Card in).

Also, i'm not a hater when it comes to speedruns, since i know how hard it is. I didn't specified on the "lots of things that should be redone" not because i'm lazy, i leaved it like that because nearly the 50% of the segments should be redone just because you didn't tried hard enough (i mean, how hard is notice that :P).

So, for a segmented run, this isn't as good as it should be.
Mr. Twishall
OK guys I'm really not understanding this. I improved on the run currently on the site by almost an hour and yet you're saying it's full of mistakes and should still be significantly improved (in the meantime the obsoleted run stays up). Segment 14 has some ugly parts, obviously. I struggle to get on the big tree in segment 36. I miscue a jump here and there in segments that are 5+ minutes long. Other than that, what are the bad problems?

I'm trying not to get angry, but I'm proud of the run. I worked hard on it and I thought it turned out great overall. If you're going to hate on the run PLEASE give me specific examples of what I did wrong.

Another thing I find silly is that my segmented run was accepted purely because it improved on an old segmented run, where I worked much harder on the 100% run and achieved better quality with it overall.
Quote from Thiradell:
OK guys I'm really not understanding this. I improved on the run currently on the site by almost an hour and yet you're saying it's full of mistakes and should still be significantly improved (in the meantime the obsoleted run stays up). Segment 14 has some ugly parts, obviously. I struggle to get on the big tree in segment 36. I miscue a jump here and there in segments that are 5+ minutes long. Other than that, what are the bad problems?

I'm trying not to get angry, but I'm proud of the run. I worked hard on it and I thought it turned out great overall. If you're going to hate on the run PLEASE give me specific examples of what I did wrong.

Another thing I find silly is that my segmented run was accepted purely because it improved on an old segmented run, where I worked much harder on the 100% run and achieved better quality with it overall.


I completely forgot there was another worse run on the site... then how could this be rejected? Isn't that conclusion that came about from the DKC3 run? That even with mistakes an improvement should be accepted?
Edit history:
Thiradell: 2009-10-12 11:07:21 pm
Mr. Twishall
Just one more thing...I realize the run isn't perfect. I get that. I thought some small mistakes would be OK. The point was to speedrun the game, I've done it and in my opinion I've done it pretty well. If you guys want a flawless run, look somewhere else, because I don't plan on getting completely sick of the game to give a robotic completion of it. Keep in mind there's virtually no Sunshine activity here and it's doubtful anyone else will attempt this run, but if you guys wanna keep an outdated single-segment 5:10 that's fine.

I'll try to improve segment 14 this week BTW.
Everything's better with Magitek
Isn't the 5:10 run single-segment?  If so, I don't think this run would have obsoleted it; it would have been a different category.
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
Quote from Thiradell:
Keep in mind there's virtually no Sunshine activity here and it's doubtful anyone else will attempt this run, but if you guys wanna keep an outdated single-segment 5:10 that's fine.


Good thing it's fine, because Doodan's run would be kept whether or not your run was accepted. Have you forgotten that SS and segmented runs are tracked separately? The current 100% is one of the longest SSs on the site--over five hours long. Obviously, even a lousy segmented run is going to be faster.

Quote from Thiradell:
Another thing I find silly is that my segmented run was accepted purely because it improved on an old segmented run, where I worked much harder on the 100% run and achieved better quality with it overall.


I agree. I think the policy of accepting improvements whether or not they meet SDA's quality standards doesn't make sense. It may not be official policy, but it seems to be standard, based on many of the reasons given for accepting runs (by both verifiers and Mike) on this board. I don't mean to criticize Dragorn, but when his run was submitted, the expected level of play in a run wasn't what it is today. Accepting an improvement on an old run simply because it has a lower time is illogical; why should the merit of new runs be judged based on old standards?

I haven't watched the run, but based on your any% and what you've said about it ("7 tries??? I tried each segment at least 10 times!!!1"), I'm willing to bet you could stand to try a little harder.
Mr. Twishall
I already mentioned that I tried much harder in the 100% than in the any% (something like an average of 30 tries per segment, over 100 for the Pinna Park segment). I'm aware I could've tried harder, the issue is that my good run is being rejected because it isn't near perfect, which I think is silly. The standards have been raised too high, at least for my tastes.
Prognosis4 threw away 100 segments per day on his Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn Speedrun. Not counting how many speedrunners have done the same thing.
Mr. Twishall
Well, cool. I don't really have the time to do that. I was hoping to be able to submit speedruns while working, going to college, spending significant amounts of time on other things, etc. Maybe not.
You can just ... you know, just use your free time, the key of speedrunning is patience. If you don't have any free time, then keep trying when you have.
Mr. Twishall
Heh, then I'll put out one run every two/three years and be completely sick of the game when I'm done. No thank you. Maybe I'll try single-segment runs from now on.
I think the most attempts i've ever had on one segment is around 300 ... i think other runners have had attempt counts around 1000.  There have been numerous segments in my 2 Thrones run and my Star Fox Adventures run where i've logged well into the 200's for attempts ... in one sitting it's enough to drive even a patient person crazy.  But it's really up to the runner ... usually what i do if i'm struggling with a segment is i'll post my best attempt on youtube and ask others if it's acceptable or not.  If people say it's no good, i'll go back and fix it, no matter how many attempts i've had.
If you're going over 100 retries for a segment, it's either because you're trying to pull off a really improbable trick (eg/ geothermal core in MP) or are torturing yourself to save a few seconds you really didn't need to.

Anyway, this rejection could've probably been avoided if the runner had posted his WIPs on the site to get a feel for how strict his audience is going to be, and to make sure he made use of all known tricks.
Quote from UCpro:
I think the most attempts i've ever had on one segment is around 300 ... i think other runners have had attempt counts around 1000.  There have been numerous segments in my 2 Thrones run and my Star Fox Adventures run where i've logged well into the 200's for attempts ... in one sitting it's enough to drive even a patient person crazy.  But it's really up to the runner ... usually what i do if i'm struggling with a segment is i'll post my best attempt on youtube and ask others if it's acceptable or not.  If people say it's no good, i'll go back and fix it, no matter how many attempts i've had.

I could never do that many attempts in one sitting... I set my recorder to record either 30 or 60 minutes, depending on my mood, and if I don't get it done in that time I delete my recording and come back to it later in the day or the next day, or whenever I have time.

Quote from Prognosis_4:
If you're going over 100 retries for a segment, it's either because you're trying to pull off a really improbable trick (eg/ geothermal core in MP) or are torturing yourself to save a few seconds you really didn't need to.

Anyway, this rejection could've probably been avoided if the runner had posted his WIPs on the site to get a feel for how strict his audience is going to be, and to make sure he made use of all known tricks.



Actually, this run was on Youtube as he was making progress, I guess the people verifying didn't bother to check it to give him the warning that a particular segment could threaten rejection.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Thiradell, if you just redo segment 14, your run will likely be passed. And no, you don't have to put in 100 tries per segment for every run you do, but you do want to put in enough tries to make your segments tight and mostly error-free.
Quote:
Actually, this run was on Youtube as he was making progress


Was there a topic here though? You can't expect too much of youtube comments.
There was a topic here, though it seemed pretty inactive.
Waiting hurts my soul...
Quote from Prognosis_4:
If you're going over 100 retries for a segment, it's either because you're trying to pull off a really improbable trick (eg/ geothermal core in MP) or are torturing yourself to save a few seconds you really didn't need to.

Anyway, this rejection could've probably been avoided if the runner had posted his WIPs on the site to get a feel for how strict his audience is going to be, and to make sure he made use of all known tricks.


In my current run, I've had segments take over 600 attempts and still not be perfect for a 10 minute segment. The amount of luck in those segments is just insane. Other times I get a good segment in 10 attempts. I seriously do a double take when that happens, and re-watch it at least 2 more times to make sure it really is error-free.
Mr. Twishall
mikwuyma, that's what I did.  Tongue "Tight" and "mostly error-free" mean different things to different people. I'll try to improve segment 14 over the weekend, and hopefully the run can go up.