Super Mario Bros.

2014-04-03 03:53:56 pm

New discovery - Lakitu egg throwing is bugged - should actually have more horizontal momentum components. Apply this patch before speedrunning or you are glitching and cheating the game Kappa

http://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_Bros.#Unused_Spiny_Egg_Behavior

bjholmes3

Edit history:

bjholmes3: 2014-04-05 05:31:42 pm

2014-04-05 05:27:36 pm

As a newcomer to the SMB speedrunning scene, I have a few questions that I really can't find answers to. I've been basing my practice more or less solely on andrewg's WR run video and the FAQ therein, as strangely enough SMB doesn't have the online documentation that other games I run have, like Pokemon Yellow, lol. My comments are as follows:

- I have 369 syndrome on 1-1. I know it's to do with the coin room, but I can't figure out how to get through it 1 tick faster.
- I have trouble with the 3-pipe jump. I can't seem to clear the Goombas well enough. This comes back again in 8-x
+ 4-1 is the easiest thing I've ever done in my life
- I simply can't do the backjumps like in the video. Every time I do, the plant is there to greet me. I started doing my 3rd backjump on the high pipe right before the warp instead of on the elevator. I go down the pipe asap, but I know it's slower than in the video. Help??
- 8-1 sucks:
- The double jump on the second pipe is hard. I'm getting better, but still, I don't feel consistent at all
- I can't clear the wall on the "caged koopa", with the Goombas who are responsible in the way. I kinda just accept it and just jump again
+ The rest is OK
- 8-2: my parakoopas don't do what andrewg's do. They kill me instead, lol. It looks like this has to do with the game's frame count or whatever, more details?
- I haven't gotten to 8-3 and 8-4 yet, I wanna master the others first.

So, while this is much less frustrating than Pokemon Yellow in some ways, it is much moreso in others, lol. Also, as a side note, I am absolutely sick of FCEUX. Too bad HDTV VC is the only other option...

As a newcomer to the SMB speedrunning scene, I have a few questions that I really can't find answers to. I've been basing my practice more or less solely on andrewg's WR run video and the FAQ therein, as strangely enough SMB doesn't have the online documentation that other games I run have, like Pokemon Yellow, lol. My comments are as follows:

- I have 369 syndrome on 1-1. I know it's to do with the coin room, but I can't figure out how to get through it 1 tick faster.
 - I have trouble with the 3-pipe jump. I can't seem to clear the Goombas well enough. This comes back again in 8-x
 + 4-1 is the easiest thing I've ever done in my life
 - I simply can't do the backjumps like in the video. Every time I do, the plant is there to greet me. I started doing my 3rd backjump on the high pipe right before the warp instead of on the elevator. I go down the pipe asap, but I know it's slower than in the video. Help??
 - 8-1 sucks:
   - The double jump on the second pipe is hard. I'm getting better, but still, I don't feel consistent at all
   - I can't clear the wall on the "caged koopa", with the Goombas who are responsible in the way. I kinda just accept it and just jump again
   + The rest is OK
 - 8-2: my parakoopas don't do what andrewg's do. They kill me instead, lol. It looks like this has to do with the game's frame count or whatever, more details?
 - I haven't gotten to 8-3 and 8-4 yet, I wanna master the others first.

So, while this is much less frustrating than Pokemon Yellow in some ways, it is much moreso in others, lol. Also, as a side note, I am absolutely sick of FCEUX. Too bad HDTV VC is the only other option...

Blubbler

2014-04-05 06:03:38 pm

Quote:

as strangely enough SMB doesn't have the online documentation that other games I run have

https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Super_Mario_Bros.

Quote:

I simply can't do the backjumps like in the video. Every time I do, the plant is there to greet me.

You need to hit the vine block to despawn the plant.

Quote:

- 8-2: my parakoopas don't do what andrewg's do. They kill me instead, lol. It looks like this has to do with the game's frame count or whatever, more details?

You're not giving much detail there. Which koopas?

bjholmes3

2014-04-05 06:43:59 pm

Incredible, thank you so much! I had no idea such a wonderful resource existed. The vine despawn will be very easy to implement, so that'll immediately up my game. Thanks a lot!

The group of 3 Koopas towards the end are the ones that give me trouble, as well as the one on the final stairs, who does not suicide for me.

doicm

2014-04-10 03:59:14 pm

Relevant: http://www.mentalfloss.com/article/56120/how-far-does-mario-have-run-and-swim-super-mario-bros

Alko

2014-04-10 04:14:43 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

I wish he would have also calculated the (more interesting, to me) warps route … and I think we have to subtract the odd foot or two for using wrong pipe warps (8-4) …
So let's also assume the 3.4 miles are correct for warpless, that would mean Mario's average speed is something like 10 mph. Or 16 km/h. Or 4 m/s. Or 3¾ mins per kilometre. You probably have to take the swimming into account, because that atm sounds like a pretty Slow Mario Bro. xD

Blubbler

Edit history:

Blubbler: 2014-05-15 11:23:55 am

Blubbler: 2014-04-25 09:21:54 am

2014-04-25 09:15:59 am

I added a section to the KB about comparing TAS and RTA: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Super_Mario_Bros.#RTA_WR_and_TAS_WR_comparison
I wanna know the absolute minimum possible time under RTA rules and that basically means making a TAS, which I have no experience in. I'm still stuck on 1-1 flagpole glitch without left+right. Huh?

On the "leaderboards": smb-leaderboards.wikia.com
I added a bunch of Lost Levels categories, many of them not even close to optimized, for completionist's sake. I feel like the page is getting a bit cluttered and that maybe LL and its billion categories should be moved to its own page (and on that page there's a Mario/Mixed and a Luigi section) and then maybe the other SMB games get a page as well. Here's an idea of how it could look, give me your thoughts:

On my own speedrun progress: I've lost count of how often I got to 8-4 on 4:58.3X pace only to then fail the walljump. I once passed the walljump and then failed the wrong warp by 1 or 2 pixels...

I added a section to the KB about comparing TAS and RTA: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Super_Mario_Bros.#RTA_WR_and_TAS_WR_comparison
I wanna know the absolute minimum possible time under RTA rules and that basically means making a TAS, which I have no experience in. I'm still stuck on 1-1 flagpole glitch without left+right. ???

On the "leaderboards": [url=http://smb-leaderboards.wikia.com/wiki/SMB_Leaderboards_Wiki]smb-leaderboards.wikia.com[/url]
I added a bunch of Lost Levels categories, many of them not even close to optimized, for completionist's sake. I feel like the page is getting a bit cluttered and that maybe LL and its billion categories should be moved to its own page (and on that page there's a Mario/Mixed and a Luigi section) and then maybe the other SMB games get a page as well. Here's an idea of how it could look, give me your thoughts:
[hidden][URL=http://imgur.com/Nsdzcp6][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Nsdzcp6.png[/IMG][/URL][/hidden]

On my own speedrun progress: I've lost count of how often I got to 8-4 on 4:58.3X pace only to then fail the walljump. I once passed the walljump and then failed the wrong warp by 1 or 2 pixels...

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:56:50 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:53:19 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:52:11 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:50:24 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:42:30 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:41:53 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:39:31 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:33:42 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:21:43 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:18:46 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:18:28 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:16:35 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:15:50 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:10:45 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:06:14 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:03:59 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-25 08:02:48 pm

2014-04-25 08:00:40 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

I like the layout change you are suggesting, except I still view Mario 3's "any%" as a glitch side category and not exactly the main any%. I'm also not sure what we should do about categories for the games. For example, Mario 2's SNES run is technically the fastest time, not Cak's. However, I don't exactly treat the remakes as original. I do think listing the original titles like you did is perfect.

It's confusing as to how it should be organized. The last could be named "Super Mario All-Stars" and that could branch into all the SNES runs maybe?

Honestly, I think it should be like you click on "Super Mario Bros" and then it sends you to a page that says "SNES," "NES," or "SHOW ALL" and it'll direct you to separate pages, and do this with all 4 titles. With the collapse option, you could probably put display it in some organized way. Super Mario All-Stars could just lead into all SNES? Just throwing out some ideas. There are certain categories that people don't actually run, but maybe listing them would be good because eventually probably all categories will have times regardless of whether they are good...

I like the layout change you are suggesting, except I still view Mario 3's "any%" as a glitch side category and not exactly the main any%. I'm also not sure what we should do about categories for the games. For example, Mario 2's SNES run is technically the fastest time, not Cak's. However, I don't exactly treat the remakes as original. I do think listing the original titles like you did is perfect.

It's confusing as to how it should be organized. The last could be named "Super Mario All-Stars" and that could branch into all the SNES runs maybe?

Honestly, I think it should be like you click on "Super Mario Bros" and then it sends you to a page that says "SNES," "NES," or "SHOW ALL" and it'll direct you to separate pages, and do this with all 4 titles. With the collapse option, you could probably put display it in some organized way. Super Mario All-Stars could just lead into all SNES? Just throwing out some ideas. There are certain categories that people don't actually run, but maybe listing them would be good because eventually probably all categories will have times regardless of whether they are good...

Blubbler

Edit history:

Blubbler: 2014-04-26 05:33:42 am

2014-04-26 04:14:09 am

Quote from andrewg:

I like the layout change you are suggesting, except I still view Mario 3's "any%" as a glitch side category and not exactly the main any%. I'm also not sure what we should do about categories for the games. For example, Mario 2's SNES run is technically the fastest time, not Cak's. However, I don't exactly treat the remakes as original. I do think listing the original titles like you did is perfect.

SMB2 SNES is not the only remake that would be faster. If you count SMB1 FDS as completion that would be faster and Deluxe is probably faster than the original too.
Just by the modern definition of "any%" there is no doubt imho that the 3:31 run is any%. The only argument against it I can see is that it is not possible to do on the original Japanese release, but that is true for some parts of the 11 minute run too. You could of course say that another category like "any% no WW" should be the main category.

Quote:

It's confusing as to how it should be organized. The last could be named "Super Mario All-Stars" and that could branch into all the SNES runs maybe?

I think organizing by games is better, because then either you put some rereleases on the game page and others on the All-Stars page or you make a lot of sites for every rerelease.
I thought about naming the 5th category just "Other" and putting everything that doesn't fit elsewhere there: All-Stars all games runs, All Night Nippon SMB, SMB Special etc. But can it or should it then have a time in the header like all the other pages?

Quote:

Honestly, I think it should be like you click on "Super Mario Bros" and then it sends you to a page that says "SNES," "NES," or "SHOW ALL" and it'll direct you to separate pages, and do this with all 4 titles. With the collapse option, you could probably put display it in some organized way. Super Mario All-Stars could just lead into all SNES? Just throwing out some ideas. There are certain categories that people don't actually run, but maybe listing them would be good because eventually probably all categories will have times regardless of whether they are good...

I don't feel like that is necessary. If a game has a lot of categories (and I can only think of LL there), you could make chapters like "main" and "other" like there aright now. Otherwise you just sort by "importance". Here's my long and useless first thoughts about what categories could be there (if there's a run) and how to organize them:

SMB1
Original version
nes any%
nes warpless
Rereleases
fds minus world
snes
snes warpless
deluxe
deluxe warpless
Similiar
Vs. SMB
All Night Nippon SMB
SMB Special

SMB2J
All characters
fds any%
snes all levels
snes d-4
fds warpless
snes any%
snes warpless
Luigi
the same as above
a problem I could see here is the proper Luigi categories like Luigi any% being pretty far down and thus maybe seeming less important

SMB2U
Original version
nes any%
nes warpless
Rereleases
snes any%
snes warpless
gba any%
gba warpless

SMB3
Original version
any%
any% no WW
warpless
100%
Rereleases
snes any%
snes warpless
snes 100%
gba any%
gba warpless
gba 100%

Quadrathlon
All-Stars all games
All-Stars all games warpless/100%

I know it's a lot, but I went for completeness.

[quote="andrewg"]I like the layout change you are suggesting, except I still view Mario 3's "any%" as a glitch side category and not exactly the main any%. I'm also not sure what we should do about categories for the games. For example, Mario 2's SNES run is technically the fastest time, not Cak's. However, I don't exactly treat the remakes as original. I do think listing the original titles like you did is perfect.[/quote]
SMB2 SNES is not the only remake that would be faster. If you count SMB1 FDS as completion that would be faster and Deluxe is probably faster than the original too.
Just by the modern definition of "any%" there is no doubt imho that the 3:31 run is any%. The only argument against it I can see is that it is not possible to do on the original Japanese release, but that is true for some parts of the 11 minute run too. You could of course say that another category like "any% no WW" should be the main category.

[quote]It's confusing as to how it should be organized. The last could be named "Super Mario All-Stars" and that could branch into all the SNES runs maybe?[/quote]
I think organizing by games is better, because then either you put some rereleases on the game page and others on the All-Stars page or you make a lot of sites for every rerelease.
I thought about naming the 5th category just "Other" and putting everything that doesn't fit elsewhere there: All-Stars all games runs, All Night Nippon SMB, SMB Special etc. But can it or should it then have a time in the header like all the other pages?

[quote]Honestly, I think it should be like you click on "Super Mario Bros" and then it sends you to a page that says "SNES," "NES," or "SHOW ALL" and it'll direct you to separate pages, and do this with all 4 titles. With the collapse option, you could probably put display it in some organized way. Super Mario All-Stars could just lead into all SNES? Just throwing out some ideas. There are certain categories that people don't actually run, but maybe listing them would be good because eventually probably all categories will have times regardless of whether they are good...[/quote]
I don't feel like that is necessary. If a game has a lot of categories (and I can only think of LL there), you could make chapters like "main" and "other" like there aright now. Otherwise you just sort by "importance". Here's my long and useless first thoughts about what categories could be there (if there's a run) and how to organize them:
[hidden][size="16"][b]SMB1[/b][/size]
[size="16"][b]Original version[/b][/size]
nes any%
nes warpless
[size="16"][b]Rereleases[/b][/size]
fds minus world
snes
snes warpless
deluxe
deluxe warpless
[size="16"][b]Similiar[/b][/size]
Vs. SMB
All Night Nippon SMB
SMB Special

[size="16"][b]SMB2J[/b][/size]
[size="16"][b]All characters[/b][/size]
fds any%
snes all levels
snes d-4
fds warpless
snes any%
snes warpless
[size="16"][b]Luigi[/b][/size]
the same as above
[color="red"]a problem I could see here is the proper Luigi categories like Luigi any% being pretty far down and thus maybe seeming less important[/color]

[size="16"][b]SMB2U[/b][/size]
[size="16"][b]Original version[/b][/size]
nes any%
nes warpless
[size="16"][b]Rereleases[/b][/size]
snes any%
snes warpless
gba any%
gba warpless

[size="16"][b]SMB3[/b][/size]
[size="16"][b]Original version[/b][/size]
any%
any% no WW
warpless
100%
[size="16"][b]Rereleases[/b][/size]
snes any%
snes warpless
snes 100%
gba any%
gba warpless
gba 100%

[size="16"][b]Quadrathlon[/b][/size]
All-Stars all games
All-Stars all games warpless/100%[/hidden]
I know it's a lot, but I went for completeness.

Svenne

2014-04-26 05:07:10 am

Smörgåsbord

In Mario 2 US for All Stars there is a third category, Any% S+Q!

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2014-04-26 12:34:21 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-26 12:33:19 pm

andrewg: 2014-04-26 12:32:51 pm

2014-04-26 12:31:51 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

I guess by definition any% is "absolute fastest completion method."

It's just that I don't know if I feel a game has actually been rightfully "completed" if there are multiple locations for completion. But technically, you're right, the listing should probably remain the same.

AS for organizing by game. That makes sense also, as all the information regarding the game someone is looking for could be accessible in one area. Just like Lost Levels SNES and FDS on SDA are not listed as two separate pages.

Blubbler

2014-05-15 11:20:39 am

some Lost Levels stuff
4-4 I think this is better than what other players do:

5-2 consistent setup for the Wrong Warp:

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2014-05-15 04:56:00 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-15 04:29:51 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-15 04:28:45 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-15 04:27:08 pm

2014-05-15 04:22:19 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

With 4-4, I jump onto the block with the firebar (facing backwards), stop on it, and then jump right in front of the 3 koopas to accelerate immediately. This was something I realized a few months back and is definitely consistent, but I do like your method also (may be more consistant)

5-2, I actually did this (possibly exact) to what you did there. I'm still trying to come up with a better method for this one. If you do a single backward jump into an object, you can land on the other side of the pit without losing momentum (if facing backward), but you can't regain the speed for the return jump back over the pit this way. The time result is the same exact I think. However, I am not done with 5-2 route planning.

EDIT: I'll have to think about 5-2 some more, but I have some thoughts on this. I'm trying to reroute this any% because I think there's quite a bit of time to be saved. I think 361 is the fastest time possible, without doing any backward jumps against objects. I need to test this and some other things more.

With 4-4, I jump onto the block with the firebar (facing backwards), stop on it, and then jump right in front of the 3 koopas to accelerate immediately. This was something I realized a few months back and is definitely consistent, but I do like your method also (may be more consistant)

5-2, I actually did this (possibly exact) to what you did there. I'm still trying to come up with a better method for this one. If you do a single backward jump into an object, you can land on the other side of the pit without losing momentum (if facing backward), but you can't regain the speed for the return jump back over the pit this way. The time result is the same exact I think. However, I am not done with 5-2 route planning.

EDIT: I'll have to think about 5-2 some more, but I have some thoughts on this. I'm trying to reroute this any% because I think there's quite a bit of time to be saved. I think 361 is the fastest time possible, without doing any backward jumps against objects. I need to test this and some other things more.

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2014-05-19 09:04:06 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-19 09:03:36 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-19 09:02:58 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-19 09:01:33 pm

andrewg: 2014-05-19 08:58:41 pm

2014-05-19 08:57:07 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

I don't need to get 4:57 to know that I mastered Super Mario Bros. I will keep trying, but I don't care too much if it never happens. If I have to force myself to do it, it's not worth it. It's always been about fun, I'm not having fun with this anymore.

Blubbler

2014-05-22 09:48:43 am

I beat the infamous romhack "Air" in 12:25. This hack is made to be played with a lot of savestate abuse, but with some alternative solutions I managed to it legitimately.

I wonder if there are some faster strategies that could be used. The warp from 1-1 to 2-1 seems to me to be a turbo-only thing (unless you go to the end of 4-3 as fire mario and then take the warp, but that doesn't exactly save time).

andrewg

2014-05-22 10:37:33 am

Hi! I'm andrewg!

I actually played through this game a few years back. I did it level by level, with savestates though. If I remember right, I jumped through the ceiling in the first stage by use of mushroom? Sounds right, but I'm not entirely sure. It's been a while since I actually played this.

Good stuff!

Blubbler

2014-05-30 10:32:39 am

I got 458.67!
http://www.twitch.tv/i_o_l/c/4361037
It almost looks like a speedrun now.

andrewg

2014-05-30 04:17:32 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

I am confused, but congrats

Alko

2014-05-30 04:59:03 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Blubbler:

I got 458.67!
http://www.twitch.tv/i_o_l/c/4361037
It almost looks like a speedrun now.

You got fireworks! Reject!

In all seriousness, though: Sprites in that romhack are only there to confuse you, right? And jolly good job on the speed you played it at. Never seen it before and completely mindboggled =O

Blubbler

Edit history:

Blubbler: 2014-06-18 01:35:52 pm

2014-06-18 01:35:21 pm

Air in 6:30
http://www.twitch.tv/i_o_l/c/4409325
Honestly, with the warp to 2-1 and the new method for 4-3 (thanks to andrewg) I don't find it that exciting anymore. It used to be a challenge to just finish, but now it's easier than Lost Levels, if you know what you are doing.

Also:

Sad

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2014-06-18 09:56:01 pm

andrewg: 2014-06-18 09:55:59 pm

andrewg: 2014-06-18 09:55:54 pm

andrewg: 2014-06-18 09:54:29 pm

2014-06-18 02:25:47 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

Blubbler, seriously nice! I've had this exact same thing happen once... Thus, another reason for my break from SMB for a bit. I just got fed up when I kept having runs like the one above. Keep at it Blubbler! It would be pretty cool to see someone top the current WR.

andrewg

2014-06-18 09:56:54 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

EDIT: This probably isn't the best place for this (or maybe it is? haha) but I'm retired from speedrunning as of today. "Retired" until I sort my life out. I've said this before, but this time I won't be playing video games until I figure some things out. I'm in a much worse position than I was previously.

So Blubbler, good luck with the 4:57. I know you can do it Smiley

looking forward to your progress. I love speedrunning, so I will definitely be back. I don't know how long I will be gone. I'll be gone until I feel my life is on track again. At best, a few months, at worst a few years. I will be back for sure, no doubt. I'm slightly burnt out from speedrunning too, so it will be good to take a break.

I'll be around on twitch streams occasionally still. Wish me luck.

HoboWithaShotgun

2014-06-19 12:35:54 am

Wake up and be awesome

Andrew, Noooo!

Anyway, good luck getting your life sorted out. You've always been one of my favorite runners and your determination for 4:57 is unparalleled. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you will come back and get the fabled 4:57

Blubbler

2014-06-25 04:00:38 pm

It happened!

framebreakdown compared to human TAS:
4-2: 21 frames slower than human TAS because of 3 backwards jumps instead of 2
8-2: 42 frames faster than human TAS because of a perfect bullet bill glitch
8-4:
room 1: perfect
room 2: lost 5 frames (good)
room 3: lost 4 frames (good)
room 4: lost 6 frames (bad)
room 5: lost 1 frame (okay)
8-4 was 3 frames faster than in the WR.
Overall 21 (4-2) + 16 (8-4) = 37 frames from "perfect" (that is ignoring flagpole glitches without enemies, wallclips and backwards jumps for faster acceleration, all of which are near TAS-only).

Manocheese

2014-06-25 04:11:04 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from andrewg:

EDIT: This probably isn't the best place for this (or maybe it is? haha) but I'm retired from speedrunning as of today. "Retired" until I sort my life out. I've said this before, but this time I won't be playing video games until I figure some things out. I'm in a much worse position than I was previously.

So Blubbler, good luck with the 4:57. I know you can do it Smiley

looking forward to your progress. I love speedrunning, so I will definitely be back. I don't know how long I will be gone. I'll be gone until I feel my life is on track again. At best, a few months, at worst a few years. I will be back for sure, no doubt. I'm slightly burnt out from speedrunning too, so it will be good to take a break.

Good luck figuring things out, Andrew.