Super Mario Advance / Super Mario 2

2006-03-11 08:37:56 pm

I wanna do a speedrun on this game, but i think the rules need some discussion...

Is "Mario Bros" runnable at all? Would anybody even care watching it?

"Super Mario 2"
is a rebuild (i think) with some minor and major changes. It is not just a port of the All Stars version as one might think.
Some rooms are redesigned (no, not just the graphics), though the basic idea of what to do is still the same, this renders it difficult to just clone Super Mario 2 speedrunnig techniques. Some glitches still work (i think on programmer's purpose) but some don't work out the way they used to be.
Some Bosses were changed completly as well...
You can hold the R-Trigger to run and catch things so can change between runnig and walking without pausing or accidently throwing. The B-Button still enables running though...
The Warp Zones didn't change at all - I didn't check for "glitch-warps" but those wouldn't really help speedrunnig at all.
Easing the game are the various hearts in the levels and way more extra-lives plus you can change your player every time you die, and have a TRY AGAIN option. It places the currently selected player (no reselect) at the beginnig of the current sub-level, gives you the number of lives you had when you first entered the sub-level and takes away all your hearts (but one of course), (dragon-)coins and mushrooms (and Yoshi's eggs) you collected in that sub-level.
When you saved the game you can select the sub-level you wanna enter at the loadingscreen.
In every sub-level there are 5 dragon-coins. Collecting all 5 gives you a 1-UP. Since the game has 20 sub-levels (no change there), there are 100 coins total. Collecting all is rewarded with a new titlescreen.
When you save a game after killing Wart you can enter an EXTRA quest. In all sub-levles the mushrooms are replaced with Yoshi's eggs, they don't count as heart containers - so 2 hearts max.. You have to complete the sub-level to finally earn the eggs. When you die there lost.
Collecting all 40 eggs is rewarded, well you get it... with a new titlescreen ... and the satisfiing feeling you did 100% (if you also collected all coins :http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBBImages/wink.gif
Wink )

All this various options, lead to many possible categories:
Segmented or SingleSegment?
All Levels or Warp Zones?
Are you allowed to save / exit / reload the game? This would lead too a minimal rout in which you only need to complete the first 2 and the last 2 sub-levles and warp/load through the rest. But the reainig levels would have to be perfect in order to make a difference....
Note that you have to exit the game at least once to enter
EXTRA (Yoshi's eggs).
What makes 100%? All mushrooms? All Dragoncoins? All eggs?
Are you allowed to die?
Are you allowed to become big in a minimalist run? It is never required to be big in the game, but it helps....
When does the timing start (Titlescreen or first Select Player)?

Some running-relevant things:
You can still get on top of some walls/rooms, but the final MiniBoss ("Birdo"/"Ostro") doesn't give you the key (as in the old versions) without a fight.
Mouser is now the Boss on Level 6 as well. His room is guarded by on the SparkLikeEnemies circling the outer walls (this includes the ground you should be standing on in quick fight)
Carriing something doesn't make Toad faster.
And some vegetables take a long time to lift.
Hitting 2 or more enemies in a row creates hearts - not good if you don't wanna grow.
I think it is impossible to overjump the long rift in 6-2. I tried sevral timings, but it doesn't work the way I saw in the other speedruns. At best I hit the bird I wanna land on up front. I use another tactic: get and stay on some bees - therer faster but hard to stay on. Considering that it saves about 15 secs it wouldn't help much in a longer run.
It is possible to shorten the info-screens a little bit by pressing B.

The run I picked for me is SingleSegmented, 0%, no deaths, don't become big, no save/exit/load, warping (1-3 to 4-1, 4-2 to 6-1). But that is not set in stone...

I still need a good technique for Wart
and I need help with the GBplayer:

Daniel

Thread title:

I wanna do a speedrun on this game, but i think the rules need some discussion...

Is "Mario Bros" runnable at all? Would anybody even care watching it?

"Super Mario 2"
is a rebuild (i think) with some minor and major changes. It is not just a port of the All Stars version as one might think.
Some rooms are redesigned (no, not just the graphics), though the basic idea of what to do is still the same, this renders it difficult to just clone Super Mario 2 speedrunnig techniques. Some glitches still work (i think on programmer's purpose) but some don't work out the way they used to be.
Some Bosses were changed completly as well...
You can hold the R-Trigger to run and catch things so can change between runnig and walking without pausing or accidently throwing. The B-Button still enables running though...
The Warp Zones didn't change at all - I didn't check for "glitch-warps" but those wouldn't really help speedrunnig at all.
Easing the game are the various hearts in the levels and way more extra-lives plus you can change your player every time you die, and have a TRY AGAIN option. It places the currently selected player (no reselect) at the beginnig of the current sub-level, gives you the number of lives you had when you first entered the sub-level and takes away all your hearts (but one of course), (dragon-)coins and mushrooms (and Yoshi's eggs) you collected in that sub-level.
When you saved the game you can select the sub-level you wanna enter at the loadingscreen.
In every sub-level there are 5 dragon-coins. Collecting all 5 gives you a 1-UP. Since the game has 20 sub-levels (no change there), there are 100 coins total. Collecting all is rewarded with a new titlescreen.
When you save a game after killing Wart you can enter an EXTRA quest. In all sub-levles the mushrooms are replaced with Yoshi's eggs, they don't count as heart containers - so 2 hearts max.. You have to complete the sub-level to finally earn the eggs. When you die there lost.
Collecting all 40 eggs is rewarded, well you get it... with a new titlescreen ... and the satisfiing feeling you did 100% (if you also collected all coins :http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBBImages/wink.gif
Wink )

All this various options, lead to many possible categories:
[b]Segmented or  SingleSegment? 
All Levels or Warp Zones?
Are you allowed to save / exit / reload the game? This would lead too a minimal rout in which you only need to complete the first 2 and the last 2 sub-levles and warp/load through the rest. But the reainig levels would have to be perfect in order to make a difference....
Note that you have to exit the game at least once to enter 
EXTRA (Yoshi's eggs).
What makes 100%? All mushrooms? All Dragoncoins? All eggs?
Are you allowed to die?
Are you allowed to become big in a minimalist run? It is never required to be big in the game, but it helps....
When does the timing start (Titlescreen or first Select Player)?[/b]

Some running-relevant things:
You can still get on top of some walls/rooms, but the final MiniBoss ("Birdo"/"Ostro") doesn't give you the key (as in the old versions) without a fight.
Mouser is now the Boss on Level 6 as well. His room is guarded by on the SparkLikeEnemies circling the outer walls (this includes the ground you should be standing on in quick fight)
Carriing something doesn't make Toad faster.
And some vegetables take a long time to lift.
Hitting 2 or more enemies in a row creates hearts - not good if you don't wanna grow.
I think it is impossible to overjump the long rift in 6-2. I tried sevral timings, but it doesn't work the way I saw in the other speedruns. At best I hit the bird I wanna land on up front. I use another tactic: get and stay on some bees - therer faster but hard to stay on. Considering that it saves about 15 secs it wouldn't help much in a longer run.
It is possible to shorten the info-screens a little bit by pressing B.

The run I picked for me is SingleSegmented, 0%, no deaths, don't become big, no save/exit/load, warping (1-3 to 4-1, 4-2 to 6-1). But that is not set in stone...

I still need a good technique for Wart
and I need help with the GBplayer:

Daniel

derDivisor47

2006-03-11 08:44:46 pm

Arghh - is was not logged in when i wrote my post, so I can't edit.

Quote:

When does the timing start (Titlescreen or first Select Player)?

And when does it end? Or is paused?

And as i said i need help here as well: http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=main;action=display;num=1142081496

Daniel

Hitaro

2006-03-11 08:53:50 pm

Quote:

Arghh - is was not logged in when i wrote my post, so I can't edit.

And when does it end? Or is paused?

And as i said i need help here as well: http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=main;action=display;num=1142081496

Daniel

How couldn't you notice that you weren't logged in when you wrote your guest name?

Timing starts from cotrol of your character to when you lose control.

Don't die.

Not sure what 100% would be.

The rest is all up to you, but you shouldn't do a single segment since, if it's only a port with a couple of changes, it shouldn't be a long game.

derDivisor47

Edit history:

derDivisor47: 2006-03-11 09:19:38 pm

2006-03-11 09:17:44 pm

Quote:

How couldn't you notice that you weren't logged in when you wrote your guest name?

Timing starts from cotrol of your character to when you lose control.

Don't die.

Not sure what 100% would be.

The rest is all up to you, but you shouldn't do a single segment since, if it's only a port with a couple of changes, it shouldn't be a long game.

I thought I would have to enter my full name, because the submitted runs need one... not well thought I know - but I don't care, because I don't wanna hide my real name.

I think selecting the character should count as well, because you might wanna change it and that requires some skill and in a singlesgement characterselection would give a pause.

And I need to determine whether or not becoming big is allowedin a minimalist run. I saw some discussion on Super Mario World about that.

Oh, and I suppose you meant SingleSegment, because it is not a long game, right ?

derDivisor47

2006-03-11 11:02:18 pm

Since they are doing Super Mario World with Mario never becoming Super I decide that probably on a minimalist run no character should ever become BIG.

And now I have a strange idea:
Do a minimalist run: no try again, no Big, do warp, don't die, no coins, no mushis, no save.
Then after you bet Wart watch the credits (take some air, drink, concentrate) Save & Quit and without a pause enter Extra ando 100% (coins, eggs).
That would be THE RUN

Hitaro

2006-03-11 11:12:58 pm

Quote:

Since they are doing Super Mario World with Mario never becoming Super I decide that probably on a minimalist run no character should ever become BIG.

And now I have a strange idea:
Do a minimalist run: no try again, no Big, do warp, don't die, no coins, no mushis, no save.
Then after you bet Wart watch the credits (take some air, drink, concentrate) Save & Quit and without a pause enter Extra ando 100% (coins, eggs).
That would be THE RUN

That would be considered as two seperate runs, be they one after the other or not. I'm pretty sure that almost every runnable game could be beaten, then beaten again, and again, and again, and again, and...you get the idea. It doesn't really get interesting after the first playthrough, even if they are seperate catagories.

And I suggest you do a normal, pure speed run before attempting any crazy stuff for no apparent reason.

derDivisor47

2006-03-11 11:53:29 pm

Yeah basicly you're right, but therer is one thing you didn't consider. In order to do all you can you have to beat the game twice.
(compare it to zelda - doing both quests in one)
So from a blank state you could do 1 quick run in order to acces the EXTRA mode. The only thing i added is minimalism on the initial part.

Sir VG

2006-03-12 12:04:53 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Given the way the game works, we can also do an individual level list, where it could be one/all of the following:

1) 5 A coins only.
2) Both Yoshi Eggs only.
3) 1 & 2 both.
4) Pure Speed (Nothing Collected).

It would be cool to see 3 and 4 for an individual level chart. This is easily accessable from the extra chart list, or if you've made it to 7-2 once.

Hitaro

2006-03-12 12:05:38 am

Quote:

Yeah basicly you're right, but therer is one thing you didn't consider. In order to do all you can you have to beat the game twice.
(compare it to zelda - doing both quests in one)
So from a blank state you could do 1 quick run in order to acces the EXTRA mode. The only thing i added is minimalism on the initial part.

Does this "extra mode" come immediately after you beat the game, as in there are no credits or "THE END" after you beat the main quest? Beacause if not, that means it is something like a New Game + and you start a new game with either a new file or with the original file. This has to be seperate catagories, even if you have to beat the game once before before being able to do it (like Zelda, except for Zelda you can just have "ZELDA" as your name).

But if there aren't any credits or "THE END", that would mean that you didn't complete the game and you have to beat the "extra" in order to truly beat it, wich means it's required, like Mario Lost Levels or Super Ghouls and Goblins.

[quote]Yeah basicly you're right, but therer is one thing you didn't consider. In order to do all you can you have to beat the game twice.
(compare it to zelda - doing both quests in one)
So from a blank state you could do 1 quick run in order to acces the EXTRA mode. The only thing i added is minimalism on the initial part.[/quote]
Does this "extra mode" come immediately after you beat the game, as in there are no credits or "THE END" after you beat the main quest? Beacause if not, that means it is something like a New Game + and you start a new game with either a new file or with the original file. This has to be seperate catagories, even if you have to beat the game once before before being able to do it (like Zelda, except for Zelda you can just have "ZELDA" as your name).

But if there aren't any credits or "THE END", that would mean that you didn't complete the game and you have to beat the "extra" in order to truly beat it, wich means it's required, like Mario Lost Levels or Super Ghouls and Goblins.

Sir VG

2006-03-12 12:10:03 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

Does this "extra mode" come immediately after you beat the game, as in there are no credits or "THE END" after you beat the main quest?

Nope.

tmont

2006-03-12 01:11:58 am

Not going to school today

I think you should take advantage of the differences between this game and the other SMB2 games (NES and All Stars). Like getting all the dragon coins or something. If you did a pure speedrun, it won't be nearly as fast as any of the others already up since Toad can't run faster than the others. And in All Stars, you can also change your character whenever you die, even if you're in the middle of a level. It might be cool to see if death abuse will be to your advantage. Something different to see in a Mario game, anyway.

Sir VG

2006-03-12 03:04:12 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

I think you should take advantage of the differences between this game and the other SMB2 games (NES and All Stars). Like getting all the dragon coins or something. If you did a pure speedrun, it won't be nearly as fast as any of the others already up since Toad can't run faster than the others. And in All Stars, you can also change your character whenever you die, even if you're in the middle of a level. It might be cool to see if death abuse will be to your advantage. Something different to see in a Mario game, anyway.

1) Dragon coins is SMA2. Ace coins, Red Coins, or A coins would be proper names.

2) You can change your character when you die in SMA as well.

3) Death abuse in this game would still be slower than whatever advantage you'd get from changing characters. It's not worth it.

derDivisor47

2006-03-12 01:53:26 pm

Would a 100% run (all levels, all A-coins) be funt to watch or to do ? because of the coin locations you can't really break sequence

Sir VG

Edit history:

Sir VG: 2006-03-12 02:05:48 pm

2006-03-12 02:04:49 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

I wouldn't considering it a 100% run unless you got all the Yoshi Eggs too, although the game does give 1% for every A coin (leading to 100% with all the A coins collected).

It might be a tad boring, but the challenge of it all would make it interesting...especially if you throw in a no-death rule.

derDivisor47

2006-03-12 02:49:46 pm

well - dieing would cost a lot of time on EXTRA - but I think it would be interesting if somebody sets up a time without dieing and another one beats that time, but died.

a side question: I remebered tha a friend of mine owns All-Stars. Does the PAL version run slower? unfortunately SM2 doesn't have an on screen timer.

derDivisor47

Edit history:

derDivisor47: 2006-03-12 02:51:56 pm

2006-03-12 02:51:39 pm

Quote:

since Toad can't run faster than the others

he has the fastetst running speed of all, but on the NES version Toad would become even faster when he carries something

tmont

2006-03-12 10:27:48 pm

Not going to school today

Quote:

he has the fastetst running speed of all, but on the NES version Toad would become even faster when he carries something

I'm well aware of what Toad is capable of, but this is what the first post said:

Quote:

Carriing something doesn't make Toad faster.

which was my point.

derDivisor47

2006-06-12 10:39:59 pm

I hate it, when my own words are used against me.

OK, back to topic: proud owner of a Gameboy Player I am...

but my first tries using the GC Controller were total crap, so getting used to the nerw feeling will cost a lot of time - i have to find my GBAtoGC-cable...