Super mario 64

2006-06-14 02:19:31 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

I just started watching the 16 star run and I noticed that he did not skip the lakitu dialogue on the bridge like in the guy in the 70 star run. That would shave off a couple of sec. along with long jumping once more less running before the bridge. Thats my two cents, if that helps any I dont know how much since I did notice that difference in the two runs, though.

GWing_02

Edit history:

GWing_02: 2006-06-14 07:11:31 pm

2006-06-14 07:09:06 pm

something or another

Yeah, he notes that in his notes. In general the current 16-star run is actually pretty sloppy, it just makes up time in stellar execution of the glitches. I can't believe he let the failed lakitu skip slide.

I agree with LeCoureur that JRB should never be done.

I'll get an AVI of the pillar jump on blast to the stone pillar up.

Bulblax

Edit history:

Bulblax: 2006-06-14 08:58:56 pm

2006-06-14 08:55:35 pm

hi

Blast to the stone pillar isn't fast...unless there is a way to reach it without the cannon or the ship

To get the ship you need to beat episode one which is definitely out

To get the cannon the red bob-omb guy doesn't appear at the beginning

Unless there's another way..

And jet stream you need the metal cap, and if you can glitch through it it still takes forever to swim down there

GWing_02

2006-06-14 09:56:31 pm

something or another

Blast to the Stone Pillar, like I said, can be done quickly by swimming to the side of the large pillar near the platform with the star, swimming upwards next to it and running just a little way up it, jumping off of it before slipping, wall kicking off of the side of the level, and grabbing onto the ledge where the star is. As confirmed by curtis bright's list, this can be done in about 22 seconds.

Through the Jet Stream is mostly slow not because you have to glitch to it but because you have to get there.

Still, though, JRB is pretty much out of the question.

Amazing Ampharos

Edit history:

Amazing Ampharos: 2006-06-14 10:44:52 pm

2006-06-14 10:21:55 pm

According to the list, the slowest stars gotten were around 50ish seconds. If it takes 20 seconds to get in and out of JRB and 22 seconds for Blast to the Stone Pillar, that's 42 seconds for that star which is 14 seconds faster than Big Penguin Race, the slowest star(not counting the Bowser Stars which are along the way we have to go anyway). Either I'm missing something or it's just been confirmed that we should go to Jolly Roger Bay. I could have sworn Stomp on Thwomp was the slowest star gotten, but it looks like Big Penguin Race, Rematch with Koopa the Quick, and Big Bomb-omb on the Summit all lose to it. Hmm, as per into the Jet Stream, can you glitch into it? If you can't it's obviously completely out, but if you can, a numerical time estimation on it might be neat. Obviously JRB stars are all competing for the slots of the slowest stars gotten, but I do think a few seconds might be savable.

I'm also thinking about Big Boo's Haunt. I know there's a big problem insofar as the 1st star there is really slow and the second one is dependant on doing the first, but it seems like a place worthy of investgation. I'm also off to play some SM64 to see how fast I can get the 8 red coins on Cool Cool Mountain.

Edit: I was playing around on Cool Cool mountain, and I think the 8 red coins deservse a serious looking at. It will probably be pretty close as per whether they qualify as a time worthy star, but if you make the right jumps and take the warp back up to the top at the right time, I think it can be done in a fast enough time to qualify as a candidate star. Unfortunately, my playing around with it resulted in my continual missing of that little island you have to jump to to make it down the mountain really fast, and I kept long jumping into walls, so I can't give an accurate time estimation. I think it's fast enough to look at though.

According to the list, the slowest stars gotten were around 50ish seconds.  If it takes 20 seconds to get in and out of JRB and 22 seconds for Blast to the Stone Pillar, that's 42 seconds for that star which is 14 seconds faster than Big Penguin Race, the slowest star(not counting the Bowser Stars which are along the way we have to go anyway).  Either I'm missing something or it's just been confirmed that we should go to Jolly Roger Bay.  I could have sworn Stomp on Thwomp was the slowest star gotten, but it looks like Big Penguin Race, Rematch with Koopa the Quick, and Big Bomb-omb on the Summit all lose to it.  Hmm, as per into the Jet Stream, can you glitch into it?  If you can't it's obviously completely out, but if you can, a numerical time estimation on it might be neat.  Obviously JRB stars are all competing for the slots of the slowest stars gotten, but I do think a few seconds might be savable.

I'm also thinking about Big Boo's Haunt.  I know there's a big problem insofar as the 1st star there is really slow and the second one is dependant on doing the first, but it seems like a place worthy of investgation.  I'm also off to play some SM64 to see how fast I can get the 8 red coins on Cool Cool Mountain.

Edit: I was playing around on Cool Cool mountain, and I think the 8 red coins deservse a serious looking at.  It will probably be pretty close as per whether they qualify as a time worthy star, but if you make the right jumps and take the warp back up to the top at the right time, I think it can be done in a fast enough time to qualify as a candidate star.  Unfortunately, my playing around with it resulted in my continual missing of that little island you have to jump to to make it down the mountain really fast, and I kept long jumping into walls, so I can't give an accurate time estimation.  I think it's fast enough to look at though.

GWing_02

Edit history:

GWing_02: 2006-06-14 11:29:19 pm

2006-06-14 11:27:34 pm

something or another

I forgot to mention, that glitch is really really hard to pull off regularly. Blast to the Stone Pillar should NOT be attempted in a single segment.

You don't have to "glitch" through the jet stream, you just keep swimming toward the star. However, it's like a 40 second star simply because it takes so friggin long to GET to it.

He, uh, DOES do Big Boo's Haunt in the current 70 star...

Raft

2006-06-14 11:35:40 pm

Here is a video of what Gwing is talking about I got it off of Curtis Brights website sometime ago but I don't know what the link is.

http://files.filefront.com/Jolly_Roger_Bay___Cannonless_P/;5151020;;/fileinfo.html

Unfortunately I lost my super mario 64 cart in a move and it makes me very sad now I have to Ebay another one.

Raft

Edit history:

Raft: 2006-06-14 11:38:58 pm

2006-06-14 11:38:40 pm

Oh I found the website witha bunch of super mario 64 vids, fast stars, hard stars and glitches enjoy.

http://www.vortiginous.com/cbright/

Enjoy.

Sorry to double post!

GWing_02

2006-06-14 11:39:24 pm

something or another

Haha thanks Raft, I recorded one but hadn't gotten around to uploading it.

I case MIGHT MAYBE be able to be made for doing the 100 coin star on Whomp's Fortress along with its red coin star. MAYBE. The TAS route does 1:10 for the two stars, but is kind of highish precision. The fastest 100 coin star route human-played (I think curtis bright did it) does like 1:01 just for the 100 coin star, but you end up on the wrong end of the map to collect the red coin star. I don't think it's doable.

Raft

Edit history:

Raft: 2006-06-14 11:46:57 pm

2006-06-14 11:44:22 pm

The video is on his site and it works out.

NEVERMIND IT DOESN'T WORK

andrewg

2006-06-14 11:54:32 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

"I don't understand your 1:10 target; the current one is 1:01...? "

yes, but for now I'm aiming for that to improve upon... i need some experience at the game a bit more. I think I will time each star and see how it goes. we'll see...

Amazing Ampharos

2006-06-15 12:08:20 am

I know Big Boo's Haunt is visited; I was thinking about other stars there since if I recall correctly he only got 2 out of there...

As per the issue with stars being too hard for single segment; I think the JRB thing is somewhat up in the air since it is pretty early in the run. I mean, what would it be, star 15 or something like that? JRB would be the 4th level so it's not like trying to do some insane high precision trick on Rainbow Ride(which he seems to basically do...). Also, if you fall you get to try again so unless failed attempts take 14 seconds, you're gaining time...

As per into the Jet Stream, if it's honestly a 40 second star, if we do end up going to JRB for Blast to the Stone Pillar, doesn't that make it worth it? The slowest star currently is 56 seconds, and a few are pretty close to that. 40 second star is in the top 70. It's clear that all excluded stars aren't going to be that fast; the whole question is whether we can shave a few seconds by swapping around which slow stars we have to get. Hence my push for the 8 red coins on Cool Cool Mountain which seems about as fast as the slowest stars he gets in the current run. The thing is that if we want to be sure we have the best set of stars, we have to look at all stars that can be done in under a minute. The JRB ones are going to be bordering that in general, but they should fall into that range.

Also, if the aquarium is 48 seconds, that's a time saver too. It still falls into the catagory of slow stars, but if it's the 68th fastest star(or something like that), then it's worth it.

For reference, I think I'll post the slowest stars we have to be looking to beat:

29 Lethal Lava Land Hot-Foot-It into the Volcano 40.51
36 Dire, Dire Docks Board Bowser's Sub 41.78 *required*
31 Hazy Maze Cave Swimming Beast in the Cavern 42.94
18 Bob-omb Battlefield Mario Wings to the Sky 43.54
47 Tiny-Huge Island Five Itty Bitty Secrets 43.78
33 Hazy Maze Cave Navigating the Toxic maze 44.81
8 Whomp's Fortress Red coins on the floating isle 44.98
59 Snowman's Land Shell Shreddin' for Red Coins 45.01
38 Dire, Dire Docks Chests in the Current 45.15
48 Tiny-Huge Island Wiggler's Red Coins 45.45
43 Wet-Dry World Secrets in the Shallows & Sky 46.31
63 Tick Tock Clock Stomp on the Thwomp 50.28
46 Tiny-Huge Island Rematch with Koopa the Quick 52.19
1 Bob-omb Battlefield Big Bob-omb on the Summit 56.46
6 Cool, Cool Mountain Big Penguin Race 56.72

Those are the 15 slowest stars gotten in the current run, and they are also all the stars that take 40 or more seconds, excluding the 2 Bowser stars which are hard to time fairly but are clearly within the realm of fast enough. Based on the numbers thrown about for JRB, it sounds like we can save 35 seconds by going to the JRB area and doing the aquarium, Blast to the Stone Pillar, and Into the Jet Stream. Even if the numbers were a little low, a 35 second time saver is a big deal. Also, it would give us the style of removing the two fixed time stars(the two races) and the Big Bombomb Fight. Amazingly all that leaves Stomp on Thwomp around as the slowest surviving star, unless some other star from some other level can be done in under 50 seconds.

I know Big Boo's Haunt is visited; I was thinking about other stars there since if I recall correctly he only got 2 out of there...

As per the issue with stars being too hard for single segment; I think the JRB thing is somewhat up in the air since it is pretty early in the run.  I mean, what would it be, star 15 or something like that?  JRB would be the 4th level so it's not like trying to do some insane high precision trick on Rainbow Ride(which he seems to basically do...).  Also, if you fall you get to try again so unless failed attempts take 14 seconds, you're gaining time...

As per into the Jet Stream, if it's honestly a 40 second star, if we do end up going to JRB for Blast to the Stone Pillar, doesn't that make it worth it?  The slowest star currently is 56 seconds, and a few are pretty close to that.  40 second star is in the top 70.  It's clear that all excluded stars aren't going to be that fast; the whole question is whether we can shave a few seconds by swapping around which slow stars we have to get.  Hence my push for the 8 red coins on Cool Cool Mountain which seems about as fast as the slowest stars he gets in the current run.  The thing is that if we want to be sure we have the best set of stars, we have to look at all stars that can be done in under a minute.  The JRB ones are going to be bordering that in general, but they should fall into that range.

Also, if the aquarium is 48 seconds, that's a time saver too.  It still falls into the catagory of slow stars, but if it's the 68th fastest star(or something like that), then it's worth it.

For reference, I think I'll post the slowest stars we have to be looking to beat:

29       Lethal Lava Land      Hot-Foot-It into the Volcano             40.51
36       Dire, Dire Docks      Board Bowser's Sub                       41.78 *required*
31       Hazy Maze Cave        Swimming Beast in the Cavern             42.94
18       Bob-omb Battlefield   Mario Wings to the Sky                   43.54
47       Tiny-Huge Island      Five Itty Bitty Secrets                  43.78
33       Hazy Maze Cave        Navigating the Toxic maze                44.81
8        Whomp's Fortress      Red coins on the floating isle           44.98
59       Snowman's Land        Shell Shreddin' for Red Coins            45.01
38       Dire, Dire Docks      Chests in the Current                    45.15
48       Tiny-Huge Island      Wiggler's Red Coins                      45.45
43       Wet-Dry World         Secrets in the Shallows & Sky            46.31
63       Tick Tock Clock       Stomp on the Thwomp                      50.28
46       Tiny-Huge Island      Rematch with Koopa the Quick             52.19
1        Bob-omb Battlefield   Big Bob-omb on the Summit                56.46
6        Cool, Cool Mountain   Big Penguin Race                         56.72

Those are the 15 slowest stars gotten in the current run, and they are also all the stars that take 40 or more seconds, excluding the 2 Bowser stars which are hard to time fairly but are clearly within the realm of fast enough.  Based on the numbers thrown about for JRB, it sounds like we can save 35 seconds by going to the JRB area and doing the aquarium, Blast to the Stone Pillar, and Into the Jet Stream.  Even if the numbers were a little low, a 35 second time saver is a big deal.  Also, it would give us the style of removing the two fixed time stars(the two races) and the Big Bombomb Fight.  Amazingly all that leaves Stomp on Thwomp around as the slowest surviving star, unless some other star from some other level can be done in under 50 seconds.

Ikanaki

2006-06-15 12:15:12 am

Glub glub.

Quote:

Unfortunately, my playing around with it resulted in my continual missing of that little island you have to jump to to make it down the mountain really fast...

It is possible to jump over the entire valley thing if you make use of a weird glitch that occurs if you jump off a slippery surface. Curtis Bright's video (in that big file previously linked, unless he has removed it for some reason) of the red coins star shows this. Pretty easy to do, too; I always used it during my 120 star runs and got it every time after a few practices.

Amazing Ampharos

Edit history:

Amazing Ampharos: 2006-06-15 12:44:27 am

2006-06-15 12:44:10 am

Yeah, that was pretty cool, and it confirms my suspicions that that star should definately be included. That was a 49 second star(assuming timing stops after the little dance Mario does; if it stops when you grab the star it's a 44 second star as was indicated). That is where we lose Stomp on Thwomp right there, assuming the three stars in the JRB area are really 20 seconds, 40 seconds, and 48 seconds with a 22 second extra travel time. I think this means that if we changed the route like that we stand to save 41 seconds. I think sub-1 hour is looking more feasible.

Radix

2006-06-15 12:48:43 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

I did an 18:08 back in... September? So technically that is the non-TAS record, not 18:59 (which was actually timed to 19:01 if I remember right). I would have sent it in by now if I hadn't taped over it for something or another.

:puke:

GWing_02

2006-06-15 12:52:50 am

something or another

Hahahaha Radix. I still hold that JRB is too slow to be considered. As for Big Boo's Haunt, there are a few new tricks involving wallkicks that could greatly speed up a LOT of the stars, but upon failure you'd fall into the underground well area. Secret of the Haunted Books being an obvious one. I think BBH could be looked into more definitely. However, you'd also have to factor in an extra 5 or 6 seconds for the extra distance and animation required to get into the level.

Bulblax

Edit history:

Bulblax: 2006-06-15 01:45:51 am

2006-06-15 01:44:56 am

hi

Something else to consider, if you were to get the CCM red coins as ampharos is suggesting, that opens up Snowman lost his head, which is definitely fast enough to be in

So then if red coins was about the same as penguin or big bob-omb, you'd also be shaving off time by being able to encorporate a shorter one in

GWing_02

2006-06-15 02:27:42 am

something or another

There's a dangerous route for CCM red coins that takes it down to I believe about 30 seconds, haven't timed it. Involves sliding down the bottomless slopes and jumping at the right times.

Amazing Ampharos

2006-06-15 03:06:15 am

I'd imagine you'd want to do it then since CCM is so early in the route. It's the second level, and you only get 3 stars on BB before moving on so the amount of work you stand to lose is pretty small.

Also, I think I'll probably go through the avoided stars and try to guess at which ones can be sub-1 minute. I am actually pretty sure that JRB is worth it, for the record, but it remains to be seen.

GWing_02

Edit history:

GWing_02: 2006-06-15 03:33:43 am

2006-06-15 03:32:16 am

something or another

Remember, though, that Runner Sanity is a huge factor. Too many restarts is really frustrating; even just getting that lakitu skip just right is frustratingly hard enough without putting another 20% of the time trick 10-12 minutes into the run.

I still hold that JRB is definitely not worth it. No chance; I'm with LeCoureur on this one. There's a chance CCM's red coin star could be perfected enough. There's a high chance more investigation into BBH stars will yield good results. That's my standing on things.

bushwacker

2006-06-15 03:47:28 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

http://www.student.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~cbright/sm64/startimescomp.html

Here's a list of the fastest times per star... don't know how updated it is these days, but it gives you an idea of what CAN be done on some stars.

Amazing Ampharos

Edit history:

Amazing Ampharos: 2006-06-15 03:48:37 am

2006-06-15 03:47:35 am

I find it funny that you maintain no chance of JRB yet the times you say the two fastest stars there take seem to prove that it's worth it entirely. If it's honestly around 20 seconds for Blast to the Stone Pillar, you do realize that you've made up the entirety of the castle travel time to JRB there alone, and I haven't heard anyone claim Into the Jet Stream is over 56 seconds which is what it has to be for it to not be worth it. I do think it seems quite clear actually that JBR can help replace the slowest stars in the current run. The numbers given in the topic right now seem to prove JBR is worth it, but it would be nice if we had really definite numbers so we could know for sure if JBR is worth it.

I thought we were presuming the runner was insane by virtue of trying to beat this run. I mean, it would basically suck to have so few attempts make it off the first floor, but the thing that has to be remembered is that if he can't beat the current time, which is really good, he loses from the start. IMO it would suck more to have a "perfect" run be 2 seconds slower than the current one, or even beat the current one by such a small amount that it doesn't feel like you've really dethroned it. At the very least the fastest options should be put out there to be analyzed.

Blast to the Stone Pillar Myles Bukrim 0:18

I find it funny that you maintain no chance of JRB yet the times you say the two fastest stars there take seem to prove that it's worth it entirely.  If it's honestly around 20 seconds for Blast to the Stone Pillar, you do realize that you've made up the entirety of the castle travel time to JRB there alone, and I haven't heard anyone claim Into the Jet Stream is over 56 seconds which is what it has to be for it to not be worth it.  I do think it seems quite clear actually that JBR can help replace the slowest stars in the current run.  The numbers given in the topic right now seem to prove JBR is worth it, but it would be nice if we had really definite numbers so we could know for sure if JBR is worth it.

I thought we were presuming the runner was insane by virtue of trying to beat this run.  I mean, it would basically suck to have so few attempts make it off the first floor, but the thing that has to be remembered is that if he can't beat the current time, which is really good, he loses from the start.  IMO it would suck more to have a "perfect" run be 2 seconds slower than the current one, or even beat the current one by such a small amount that it doesn't feel like you've really dethroned it.  At the very least the fastest options should be put out there to be analyzed.

Blast to the Stone Pillar Myles Bukrim       0:18

GWing_02

Edit history:

GWing_02: 2006-06-15 05:33:30 am

2006-06-15 05:25:18 am

something or another

Okay, well if you think you can do that many hit-or-miss glitches in one run, go for it by all means.

Since we're down to shaving seconds, coupla tricks:

On the cap levels, if you jump on a switch immediately followed by getting the star without touching the ground, the text won't show up. This can be done on the wing cap level by skimming the button and flying into the star, and on the vanish cap level by starting back to the fence, triple jumping so your last jump is on the switch, wallkick at the height of the jump, then B-dive onto the star.

Castle route: If we're doing JRB, better princess slide route would be CCM->slide->JRB->slide.

Amazing Ampharos

2006-06-15 05:35:33 am

Isn't it all hit and miss really? I mean, just look at what's done in Rainbow Ride. I'd have a heart attack on some of those jumps. I kinda figured that since andrewg was talking about beating the run, he planned to play at at least that level(I don't claim to be capable of it), and a lot of those glitches don't require that level of play. There's what, Lagutu skip in the very beginning and then maybe a high execution CCM. After that you have a hard jump on JRB, and then you're back to the normal old stuff the current run does, some of which is pretty hardcore and it's all very hit or miss(a bad angle on lethal lava land or Bowser in the fire sea; missing a jump on tick tock clock or rainbow ride; missing the star in the pyramid in Shifting Sand Land; Bowser in the sky in general). Plus, the JRB thing just knocks you down a small distance into the water if you fail, and you can try again with seconds lost.

GWing_02

Edit history:

GWing_02: 2006-06-15 05:55:00 am

2006-06-15 05:44:36 am

something or another

The Merry Go Round star from BBH should definitely be considered. Not even risky, easy 42 seconds on average.

You're right about the insanity level in general; however the difference is that a lot of the existing tricks such as the Rainbow Ride tricks are mostly about angle which can be landmarked, while the CCM trick is mostly about timing AND angle at the same time (the slippery slopes move FAST) and JRB is mostly luck. CCM red coin should probably be done even without the slopejump in the middle of it due to the time saved for snowman's head.

Another topic for debate: to get the vanish cap or not?

edit: one more castle route trick: if you have 30 stars by the time you get to the basement, do DDD+Bowser in the Fire Sea first.