Suikoden IV

2014-01-16 09:15:12 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Just thought I'd make a thread for this, if only to have somewhere to infodump in case someone else gets interested in this for some reason.

Right now I'm planning on doing a New Game+ run, which lets you carry over gear and money from your first playthrough. Jindeathwalk on Twitch has completed a run of this in 6:26:58 (video is http://www.twitch.tv/jindeathwalk/c/3133404). I plan on routing it myself soon, figuring what items need to be picked up on a first playthrough in order to enable completion as quickly as possible.

And for anyone wondering, the reason we have started with New Game+ is because you can use cutscene skip on NG+, which is a HUGE timesaver.

Thread title:

Jindeathwalk

Edit history:

Jindeathwalk: 2014-01-19 05:57:48 pm

2014-01-19 05:55:20 pm

Thanks for doing a thread for this game. The big inconvenient in this game is the World Map, you can only move with a ship and the road is very long between islands (It's for the neophyt about Suikoden IV.)

My actual time isn't optimize, I think we can do a sub 6 easy.

Without the cutscenes you win a minimum of almost 2/3 hours, it's just an idea after playing the game for a long time. It's just a prediction.

delicious

2014-01-21 01:08:45 am

I usually reach El-Eal by 6 hours on a fresh new game, it's definitely possible to get lower on a new game+

peasantkaitou

2014-02-26 01:28:57 am

Possible ideas to add for ur NG+ running is it might be beneficial to switching to Gau when u can recruit him rather than continually using mitsuba. Another thing im thinking of is u could possibly abuse the training room in ur ship. as with 2 characters u can get both to 99 with 2 passes thru the training hall. Could potentially save a lot of time with the tree of life and graham.

CVagts

Edit history:

CVagts: 2014-03-19 10:21:01 pm

2014-03-19 10:16:47 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Gau would take a bit of time to recruit, as you have to get him in a random encounter. The idea of the route, at least in New Game+, is to import some sets of Ogre Armor so that your characters gain a lot of attack power and gain Fury status. You can use any character who is able to equip the Ogre Armor. The full list of characters my tentative route planned to use were Keneth, Jewel, Mitsuba (an optional character, but at one point you have to recruit a few characters to advance the story), Lino, Kika, Axel, Hervey, and Dario. If you wanted, I could post a full list of people who can equip Ogre gear.

The training room might be beneficial for a NG run or a naked NG+ run (something that Jin was thinking about; you start a New Game+ off of a custom imported file with no items to carry over, so the only advantage over a NG run would be cutscene skip), but in a true NG+ run, you're so powerful from the items you carry over that you never need to level grind (except at the very end, and you can easily and quickly do so in El-Eal).

Gau would take a bit of time to recruit, as you have to get him in a random encounter.  The idea of the route, at least in New Game+, is to import some sets of Ogre Armor so that your characters gain a lot of attack power and gain Fury status.   You can use any character who is able to equip the Ogre Armor.  The full list of characters my tentative route planned to use were Keneth, Jewel, Mitsuba (an optional character, but at one point you have to recruit a few characters to advance the story), Lino, Kika, Axel, Hervey, and Dario.  If you wanted, I could post a full list of people who can equip Ogre gear.

The training room might be beneficial for a NG run or a naked NG+ run (something that Jin was thinking about; you start a New Game+ off of a custom imported file with no items to carry over, so the only advantage over a NG run would be cutscene skip), but in a true NG+ run, you're so powerful from the items you carry over that you never need to level grind (except at the very end, and you can easily and quickly do so in El-Eal).

Jindeathwalk

2014-03-28 04:50:49 am

Yeah the training room could be good but with the CVagts route's idea, like he said, you have a possibility to have the best equipements at the beginning. Then it's better for a naked NG+
About Gau, if I remeber well, you can have it in about 2/3 battles but it's already too long because you have to return to the island to recruit him.

You can kill the Last Boss at the level 55, you just have to grind some levels before the boss. It took me 30/40 minutes in my PB (if I remember well) but with the Ogre Armor you can easily reduce this time by 15 minutes. And you have to think about the Graham Cray team too.

CVagts

2014-07-30 03:35:46 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Bumping this because Suikoden Day 2014 (a yearly commemoration started by the Suikoden Revival Movement, a social media group dedicated to Suikoden fandom) is taking place on August 19, the 10-year anniversary of the Japanese release of Suikoden IV.

I have already run Suikoden IV any% New Game+ (albeit on HDLoader) and have a time of 3:12:24 (again, with HDLoader so it's skewed) which is at http://www.twitch.tv/cvagts/c/4066614. I am going to start routing NG+ 108-star so that I can run it on the 19th, and just wanted to update this topic with a time, even though it's done via HDLoader.

CVagts

2014-08-22 12:40:16 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

Gonna throw some info just so I have it up somewhere.

My HDLoader times for NG+ are 3:12:24 any% and 4:00:26 108-star. On-disc, they would probably be a little less than an hour longer, possibly more for 108-star due to extra loads. Eventually I will get a disc if I end up seriously running this game.

I've been revisiting the NG+ any% route for two reasons: to analyze and hash out the naval battles (which are harder in any% due to the lower amount of recruits at your disposal), and to tinker with the route. Here's what I have found so far (just got to Obel for the first time):

- In Naval Battle #2 (vs. Brandeau), my normal ship layout was to add Gaien Knight #2 and Gaien Knight #3 as Rune Cannons, then the other three knights as soldiers. The soldiers are completely unnecessary as it turns out, so I don't even bother with them. The strategy I use is to head to the right to go after Brandeau's ship first, then take out the other ship. I don't think it matters which ship you eliminate first, because the battle doesn't end until both ships die. The important thing is that by not adding the soldiers, there is a bit of time saved from not having to do the menu for them. It does make your ship more vulnerable, but you're still at no real risk.

- In Naval Battle #3 (when the pirates invade Razril), my normal layout was to add Jewel as the Rune Cannon, then the other knights (Tal/Paula/Keneth) as soldiers. Again, the soldiers are completely unnecessary, so I don't bother with them. The enemy boats are Wind/Fire and Fire, so odds are they won't do any damage to you. The strategy is to head straight up and land between the boats, which lets you shell both of them at the same time with Jewel's water cannon. If Nalleo's boat decides to use Wind, it will do a bit of damage to your boat, but not enough that you need to worry about it. You also have Snowe's boat at your disposal in this fight, but you can just Standby/Surrender with it, because Lazlo's boat is more than enough to defeat the enemies.

- An early-game idea that I think Jindeathwalk came up with was using the Middleport blacksmith at the beginning (when you head there to accept the Damp Hairball mission). His intention I believe was to get some extra damage for Lazlo to make the Brandeau deal a little faster, but there is timeloss from going into the town and then into the blacksmith, and on top of that, the blacksmith only tempers your weapons to level 3. I did a practice run for both level 1 weapons and level 3 weapons up until Obel (when you normally use the blacksmith). Here are the rough damage calculations I ran into:
Damp Hairball (200 HP): no real difference. He dies in one round regardless. The only difference is that with lucky damage rolls, level 3 weapons would kill him in two hits instead of three.
Pirates invading Razril (100/140 HP): not much of a difference. Another example of how damage rolls would be more advantageous with level 3 weapons.
Water Dragon (1300 HP): In the first turn, Lazlo and Jewel deal about 70-75 more damage with the upgraded weapons. The boss dies in three turns with level 1 weapons, but with level 3, there's a chance it will end in two. The boss is very low-risk so it's not a major timesave.
Boss Crab (1300 HP): Lazlo does about 50 extra damage per hit. Keneth and Jewel each do about 30-40 extra damage per hit (Keneth and Jewel each use spells for at least one turn). Boss is a little tricky if the minions attack before Keneth and/or Jewel can kill them with spells, and that happens regardless of weapon level.
Killer Rays (850, 900 HP): Lazlo does about 70 extra damage per hit. Keneth and Jewel each do about 35-50 extra damage (though Keneth uses spells for the first two turns, and Jewel uses spells for one turn).

All in all I think the level 3 weapons are probably worth considering for NG runs, but for NG+ they don't seem to be as important.

- One thing I haven't quite hashed out yet, but I think it's probably going to end up happening: in old any% I used Jeane/Viki/Pablo for the Moving Isle boss. He is out of range and requires mages or ranged attacks to kill. In 108-star, however, I needed to use Chiepoo for an extra section, so I tried the Jeane/Viki/Chiepoo party for Moving Isle, and it worked just as well. So I think I might try that in any% as well, just to see how it goes. If it works, it would save a miniscule amount of time (but time saved nonetheless) by not having to equip Pablo. The only thing this would change is that I would want to equip Chiepoo with a Rage Rune at Obel instead of a Fire Rune (the Fire/Rage Rune allows him to become a Rune Cannon, which is beneficial for a few naval battles).

I'm sure I'll come up with more stuff as I progress through the route.

Gonna throw some info just so I have it up somewhere.

My HDLoader times for NG+ are 3:12:24 any% and 4:00:26 108-star.  On-disc, they would probably be a little less than an hour longer, possibly more for 108-star due to extra loads.  Eventually I will get a disc if I end up seriously running this game.

I've been revisiting the NG+ any% route for two reasons:  to analyze and hash out the naval battles (which are harder in any% due to the lower amount of recruits at your disposal), and to tinker with the route.  Here's what I have found so far (just got to Obel for the first time):

- In Naval Battle #2 (vs. Brandeau), my normal ship layout was to add Gaien Knight #2 and Gaien Knight #3 as Rune Cannons, then the other three knights as soldiers.  The soldiers are completely unnecessary as it turns out, so I don't even bother with them.  The strategy I use is to head to the right to go after Brandeau's ship first, then take out the other ship.  I don't think it matters which ship you eliminate first, because the battle doesn't end until both ships die.  The important thing is that by not adding the soldiers, there is a bit of time saved from not having to do the menu for them.  It does make your ship more vulnerable, but you're still at no real risk.

- In Naval Battle #3 (when the pirates invade Razril), my normal layout was to add Jewel as the Rune Cannon, then the other knights (Tal/Paula/Keneth) as soldiers.  Again, the soldiers are completely unnecessary, so I don't bother with them.  The enemy boats are Wind/Fire and Fire, so odds are they won't do any damage to you.  The strategy is to head straight up and land between the boats, which lets you shell both of them at the same time with Jewel's water cannon.  If Nalleo's boat decides to use Wind, it will do a bit of damage to your boat, but not enough that you need to worry about it.  You also have Snowe's boat at your disposal in this fight, but you can just Standby/Surrender with it, because Lazlo's boat is more than enough to defeat the enemies.

- An early-game idea that I think Jindeathwalk came up with was using the Middleport blacksmith at the beginning (when you head there to accept the Damp Hairball mission).  His intention I believe was to get some extra damage for Lazlo to make the Brandeau deal a little faster, but there is timeloss from going into the town and then into the blacksmith, and on top of that, the blacksmith only tempers your weapons to level 3.  I did a practice run for both level 1 weapons and level 3 weapons up until Obel (when you normally use the blacksmith).  Here are the rough damage calculations I ran into:
Damp Hairball (200 HP):  no real difference.  He dies in one round regardless.  The only difference is that with lucky damage rolls, level 3 weapons would kill him in two hits instead of three.
Pirates invading Razril (100/140 HP):  not much of a difference.  Another example of how damage rolls would be more advantageous with level 3 weapons.
Water Dragon (1300 HP):  In the first turn, Lazlo and Jewel deal about 70-75 more damage with the upgraded weapons.  The boss dies in three turns with level 1 weapons, but with level 3, there's a chance it will end in two.  The boss is very low-risk so it's not a major timesave.
Boss Crab (1300 HP):  Lazlo does about 50 extra damage per hit.  Keneth and Jewel each do about 30-40 extra damage per hit (Keneth and Jewel each use spells for at least one turn).  Boss is a little tricky if the minions attack before Keneth and/or Jewel can kill them with spells, and that happens regardless of weapon level.
Killer Rays (850, 900 HP):  Lazlo does about 70 extra damage per hit.  Keneth and Jewel each do about 35-50 extra damage (though Keneth uses spells for the first two turns, and Jewel uses spells for one turn).

All in all I think the level 3 weapons are probably worth considering for NG runs, but for NG+ they don't seem to be as important.

- One thing I haven't quite hashed out yet, but I think it's probably going to end up happening:  in old any% I used Jeane/Viki/Pablo for the Moving Isle boss.  He is out of range and requires mages or ranged attacks to kill.  In 108-star, however, I needed to use Chiepoo for an extra section, so I tried the Jeane/Viki/Chiepoo party for Moving Isle, and it worked just as well.  So I think I might try that in any% as well, just to see how it goes.  If it works, it would save a miniscule amount of time (but time saved nonetheless) by not having to equip Pablo.  The only thing this would change is that I would want to equip Chiepoo with a Rage Rune at Obel instead of a Fire Rune (the Fire/Rage Rune allows him to become a Rune Cannon, which is beneficial for a few naval battles).

I'm sure I'll come up with more stuff as I progress through the route.

CVagts

2014-08-22 11:13:55 pm

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

More discoveries!

- In Naval Battle #6 (when Snowe comes after you at the Pirate Nest), you should add Lino to your Fighters, to give you some more underlings. This is when the naval battles start to do damage, and you need to be able to tank a few hits just in case.

- When chasing Snowe to Razril, your party will probably be Viki/Jeane/Mitsuba. You should fight one battle of 3-4 Rock Crabs if you get it; it will bring you to level 30-32 or so. When you near Razril, you'll start fighting the blue birds. You can fight a battle or two of them as well, to help your team get to level 35-36. This sets you up very well for Moving Isle.

- For Moving Isle, you don't need to use Pablo. You can use Chiepoo instead. You don't even need to attach a Lightning Rune to Chiepoo, as his Rage Rune will do enough damage to Moving Isle. If you already got Viki and Jeane some levels while chasing Snowe (the key is that they each need to have one level 4 spell), you don't need to do that anymore. Chances are, Chiepoo has one level 3 spell, and that's all he needs.

- I brought this idea up with Jindeathwalk, but I've entertained the idea of recruiting Katarina. If I decide to do that, I will need to warp back to the Nest of Pirates at some point before going to Razril. I've decided to do it between Middleport and Na-Nal. It does take a bit of time to do, but by recruiting Katarina, we'll also be able to recruit Konrad. Both of them are invaluable rune cannons, so I've decided to recruit them. They are optional though, but you will need to tinker around with your strats.

- I also need to gear up quite a few people before the final naval battle, and I've decided to do the first part of that between Middleport and Na-Nal (after recruiting Katarina, if I decide to end up doing that). I give runes to Lino/Kika/Mitsuba (my Middleport party) and temper their weapons. I then swap out to Keneth/Jewel/Jeane, give Jeane a Flowing Rune over her Rage Rune, then temper Keneth and Jewel's weapons. For the last part, I add Hervey, Dario, and Mizuki ONLY if I didn't recruit Katarina. She'll get a Water Rune to act as a replacement rune cannon, and I'll temper Hervey and Dario's weapons.

- I'll level up Hervey and Dario at Na-Nal, when I go to liberate it.

- If you recruited Katarina, you need to add her to the party after liberating Na-Nal. She needs to be in your party when you liberate Razril.

- In Naval Battle #7 (liberating Razril), I'm going to add a full team of powerhouses to Lazlo's ship as Fighters. If you sink Helmut's ship, the battle automatically ends (the only naval battle like this as far as I know), so Lazlo's ship should rush forward and board Helmut's ship as quickly as possible. This will end the battle, as Lino/Keneth/Jewel/Mitsuba take no prisoners.

- When you stay at the inn after liberating Razril, Konrad will be there. If Katarina is in your party, he will join.

- After liberating Razril, there is one more set of gearing up to do. Add Helmut, Axel, and Konrad (if you have him) to the team. Give Helmut and Axel Ogre gear and Speed Rings, attach a Wind Rune to Konrad, then temper Helmut and Axel's weapons.

- Naval Battle #11 (the final battle). Jindeathwalk and I have worked on this battle for a while, and it's still very much a work in progress. This is the loadout that I ended up settling on, and I'm sure it'll change several times before I'm satisfied:

Chicken: Lazlo as captain. Paula-Wind, Katarina-Water, Pablo-Fire, and Agnes-anything as rune cannons. Fighters are Kika, Helmut, Hervey, and Flare.
Grishend: Nalleo as captain. Konrad-Wind, Tanya-Water as rune cannons. Fighters are Lino, Dario, Axel, and Tal.
Gaien Ship: Haruto as captain. Jeane-Lightning, Tov-Water as rune cannons. Fighters are Ornan, Akaghi, and Chiepoo.
Obel Ship: Sigurd as captain. Yu-Lightning, Desmond-anything as rune cannons. Fighters are Reinhold and Mizuki.

The wind and lightning cannons are to defeat Troy's allies, though you can board them with the Grishend or Chicken if you so desire. The water cannons are to protect you in the event that Troy fires upon you (the water cannon is the only one that he cannot overpower with the element that trumps it). You need to board Troy's ship ASAP, so beeline for him with the Chicken.

- Giant Tree fight. It turns out that the Giant Tree has a lot of magical attacks, and Silent Lake straight-up stops them from happening. So instead of using a lightning attack on the first turn, you should Silent Lake him instead, then wail on him with your three melee characters. This makes Jeane useless after casting Silent Lake, so you can either defend with her or have her heal with Mega Medicines.

There will be more in the future, but that's what I found today.

More discoveries!

- In Naval Battle #6 (when Snowe comes after you at the Pirate Nest), you should add Lino to your Fighters, to give you some more underlings.  This is when the naval battles start to do damage, and you need to be able to tank a few hits just in case.

- When chasing Snowe to Razril, your party will probably be Viki/Jeane/Mitsuba.  You should fight one battle of 3-4 Rock Crabs if you get it; it will bring you to level 30-32 or so.  When you near Razril, you'll start fighting the blue birds.  You can fight a battle or two of them as well, to help your team get to level 35-36.  This sets you up very well for Moving Isle.

- For Moving Isle, you don't need to use Pablo.  You can use Chiepoo instead.  You don't even need to attach a Lightning Rune to Chiepoo, as his Rage Rune will do enough damage to Moving Isle.  If you already got Viki and Jeane some levels while chasing Snowe (the key is that they each need to have one level 4 spell), you don't need to do that anymore.  Chances are, Chiepoo has one level 3 spell, and that's all he needs.

- I brought this idea up with Jindeathwalk, but I've entertained the idea of recruiting Katarina.  If I decide to do that, I will need to warp back to the Nest of Pirates at some point before going to Razril.  I've decided to do it between Middleport and Na-Nal.  It does take a bit of time to do, but by recruiting Katarina, we'll also be able to recruit Konrad.  Both of them are invaluable rune cannons, so I've decided to recruit them.  They are optional though, but you will need to tinker around with your strats.

- I also need to gear up quite a few people before the final naval battle, and I've decided to do the first part of that between Middleport and Na-Nal (after recruiting Katarina, if I decide to end up doing that).  I give runes to Lino/Kika/Mitsuba (my Middleport party) and temper their weapons.  I then swap out to Keneth/Jewel/Jeane, give Jeane a Flowing Rune over her Rage Rune, then temper Keneth and Jewel's weapons.  For the last part, I add Hervey, Dario, and Mizuki ONLY if I didn't recruit Katarina.  She'll get a Water Rune to act as a replacement rune cannon, and I'll temper Hervey and Dario's weapons.

- I'll level up Hervey and Dario at Na-Nal, when I go to liberate it.

- If you recruited Katarina, you need to add her to the party after liberating Na-Nal.  She needs to be in your party when you liberate Razril.

- In Naval Battle #7 (liberating Razril), I'm going to add a full team of powerhouses to Lazlo's ship as Fighters.  If you sink Helmut's ship, the battle automatically ends (the only naval battle like this as far as I know), so Lazlo's ship should rush forward and board Helmut's ship as quickly as possible.  This will end the battle, as Lino/Keneth/Jewel/Mitsuba take no prisoners.

- When you stay at the inn after liberating Razril, Konrad will be there.  If Katarina is in your party, he will join.

- After liberating Razril, there is one more set of gearing up to do.  Add Helmut, Axel, and Konrad (if you have him) to the team.  Give Helmut and Axel Ogre gear and Speed Rings, attach a Wind Rune to Konrad, then temper Helmut and Axel's weapons.

- Naval Battle #11 (the final battle).  Jindeathwalk and I have worked on this battle for a while, and it's still very much a work in progress.  This is the loadout that I ended up settling on, and I'm sure it'll change several times before I'm satisfied:

Chicken:  Lazlo as captain.  Paula-Wind, Katarina-Water, Pablo-Fire, and Agnes-anything as rune cannons.  Fighters are Kika, Helmut, Hervey, and Flare.
Grishend:  Nalleo as captain.  Konrad-Wind, Tanya-Water as rune cannons.  Fighters are Lino, Dario, Axel, and Tal.
Gaien Ship:  Haruto as captain.  Jeane-Lightning, Tov-Water as rune cannons.  Fighters are Ornan, Akaghi, and Chiepoo.
Obel Ship:  Sigurd as captain.  Yu-Lightning, Desmond-anything as rune cannons.  Fighters are Reinhold and Mizuki.

The wind and lightning cannons are to defeat Troy's allies, though you can board them with the Grishend or Chicken if you so desire.  The water cannons are to protect you in the event that Troy fires upon you (the water cannon is the only one that he cannot overpower with the element that trumps it).  You need to board Troy's ship ASAP, so beeline for him with the Chicken.

- Giant Tree fight.  It turns out that the Giant Tree has a lot of magical attacks, and Silent Lake straight-up stops them from happening.  So instead of using a lightning attack on the first turn, you should Silent Lake him instead, then wail on him with your three melee characters.  This makes Jeane useless after casting Silent Lake, so you can either defend with her or have her heal with Mega Medicines.

There will be more in the future, but that's what I found today.