Point out the blatantly obvious from a viewer's perspective [locked]

2011-01-12 01:11:18 pm

Being annoyed at someone does not give you the right to be rude or hateful toward someone or flame said someone. It gives an unpleasant atmosphere. Instead what you can do is could have done is just nicely replied "no", "doesn't work like that", "bad idea", "we're not going to that because it isn't practical", etc. Had you simply done that, we wouldn't have this discussion about civility, which to be honest, I hate to be drawn into.
I'm not going to be rude to you, however. Because it's one thing I don't do. I am polite to people, or try to.

Anyway, forget all of the issue. It doesn't need discussion anymore. And it will probably only upset one of us. Let's just be civil and see what others have to say.

aleckermit

Edit history:

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 02:28:23 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 02:25:43 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 02:17:59 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 02:17:15 pm

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aleckermit: 2011-01-12 02:16:20 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 02:10:53 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:58:51 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:57:22 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:43:05 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:40:58 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:40:51 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:39:31 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:36:35 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:36:06 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:35:50 pm

aleckermit: 2011-01-12 01:35:32 pm

2011-01-12 01:34:22 pm

Quote from Josh the Funkdoc:

i have a lot to say but i'll try to keep it simple:
oh, and alec...guest has a good point with the RBA run. i find it funny how you guys say majora's mask speedrun sucks because it's all cutscenes and then do RBA instead of more normal oot...

Quote from guest1:

Yea, watching someone mash through 90% of the game during OOT was really popular. MST might be a popular category, but the reaction was generally really terrible among the casual viewers who watched the run that I have talked to (reading about RBA is cool but watching it in person is pretty terrible). You can't sit there and claim your game is more popular and then come and say "hey guyz! my opinion is unbiased" because you are completely biased here. Do an MST run that is actually interesting and isn't 90% cutscenes and I might agree with you.

I was approachd by many people at the marathon that told me the OoT race was like their favorite race of the whole marathon. I think lots of people enjoyed it. All temple OoT is 3+ hours, and has many moments that can absolutely ruin the whole run. It's probobly the hardest possible run of OoT.

And no one said the Majora's Mask run sucks, it's AMAZING. I (and many others) voted against it because Jiano hadn't practiced it a LONG time and it's an extremely difficult run. Jiano himself did not want to do MM. MM doesn't have a bad cutscene-to-gameplay ratio, I have no idea where you heard that. I love the MM any% run, I've probobly watched Jiano's 1:53 at least 3 times.

And to guest1, there's a good 55+ minutes of gameplay at least in OoT RTA and lots of glitches and cool sequence breaks. Not to mention beating the game with 3 hearts and no deaths (which me and Runnerguy did) is pretty impressive to most people. Our backup fairies went un-used. We don't need to be arguing about what games are good/bad, I was just stating popularity. I don't even play SM64, but I recognize it's popularity (every kid online has tried to speedrun/TAS it at some point).

Too much bitterness in this thread thanks to a few people... This marathon went better than ANYONE could have hoped for, I was just stating that there were some unfortunate time slots, and we needed a place to put food for later :P. The title of the thread is "suggestions", not "bitter insults". Guest5 your comments about us not raising enough $ to even make a difference is so uncalled for, we more than doubled our initial goal and I believe Breakdown said $40,000 was a enough for a whole year of a specific type of research (sorry I forgot the fine details of what Breakdown said about it).

[quote="Josh the Funkdoc"]i have a lot to say but i'll try to keep it simple:
oh, and alec...guest has a good point with the RBA run.  i find it funny how you guys say majora's mask speedrun sucks because it's all cutscenes and then do RBA instead of more normal oot...
[/quote]

[quote="guest1"]Yea, watching someone mash through 90% of the game during OOT was really popular. MST might be a popular category, but the reaction was generally really terrible among the casual viewers who watched the run that I have talked to (reading about RBA is cool but watching it in person is pretty terrible). You can't sit there and claim your game is more popular and then come and say "hey guyz! my opinion is unbiased" because you are completely biased here. Do an MST run that is actually interesting and isn't 90% cutscenes and I might agree with you.
[/quote]

I was approachd by many people at the marathon that told me the OoT race was like their favorite race of the whole marathon. I think lots of people enjoyed it. All temple OoT is 3+ hours, and has many moments that can absolutely ruin the whole run. It's probobly the hardest possible run of OoT.

And no one said the Majora's Mask run sucks, it's AMAZING. I (and many others) voted against it because Jiano hadn't practiced it a LONG time and it's an extremely difficult run. Jiano himself did not want to do MM. MM doesn't have a bad cutscene-to-gameplay ratio, I have no idea where you heard that. I love the MM any% run, I've probobly watched Jiano's 1:53 at least 3 times.

And to guest1, there's a good 55+ minutes of gameplay at least in OoT RTA and lots of glitches and cool sequence breaks. Not to mention beating the game with 3 hearts and no deaths (which me and Runnerguy did) is pretty impressive to most people. Our backup fairies went un-used. We don't need to be arguing about what games are good/bad, I was just stating popularity. I don't even play SM64, but I recognize it's popularity (every kid online has tried to speedrun/TAS it at some point).

Too much bitterness in this thread thanks to a few people... This marathon went better than ANYONE could have hoped for, I was just stating that there were some unfortunate time slots, and we needed a place to put food for later :P. The title of the thread is "suggestions", not "bitter insults". Guest5 your comments about us not raising enough $ to even make a difference is so uncalled for, we more than doubled our initial goal and I believe Breakdown said $40,000 was a enough for a whole year of a specific type of research (sorry I forgot the fine details of what Breakdown said about it).

Carl Sagan

2011-01-12 01:37:19 pm

For what it's worth, as someone with just a bunch of average gamer friends who don't know anything about speedruns, OoT was fantastic as it was, and all of the "casual" games like Castle Crashers were also incredibly entertaining for them to watch. Sample size of 6 Tongue

Darkwing Duck

2011-01-12 01:41:50 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Flip:

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

And blast my fairly blunt and straightforward typing style. Made this thread turn out kind of depressing.

It's got nothing to do with your "typing style." Fact of the matter is that you made a gripe thread an hour after the marathon ended.

Do not interpret wanting to suggest ideas from a perspective no one at the marathon could possibly have as wanting to "gripe." The reasoning for the timing is something I'll directly quote from Rakuen, "On the other hand, starting the thread now allows everyone to get their thoughts out while the event is still fully fresh in their minds." Posting like this makes me want to think that you don't want any improvements made at all and don't care what the viewers think.

In regarding the relationship between the commentator chair and runner, I'd be willing to suggest that the commentator know little about the game being run, or, I think better put, be less interested in the run, especially for popular, middle length runs. I know some commentators were very interested in some of the games, and the donations got behind as a result.

There has been more mention of the background chatter, with UA appreciating some of it to calm his nerves. I think a balance needs to be made, I guess. When the chatter begins to overpower anything the runner and commentator say, it needs to be addressed. I don't think that end of it is a concern, though, because when background noise got too loud, effort was made to tone it down. My main concern with that was that it came off as disinterest to the camera, which was exacerbated a bit when the runner, or someone wanting to comment on the run, tried to speak out and was drowned out.

[quote="Flip"][quote="Darkwing Duck"]
And blast my fairly blunt and straightforward typing style.  Made this thread turn out kind of depressing.[/quote]
It's got nothing to do with your "typing style."  Fact of the matter is that you made a gripe thread an hour after the marathon ended.[/quote]
Do not interpret wanting to suggest ideas from a perspective no one at the marathon could possibly have as wanting to "gripe."  The reasoning for the timing is something I'll directly quote from Rakuen, "On the other hand, starting the thread now allows everyone to get their thoughts out while the event is still fully [b]fresh[/b] in their minds."  Posting like this makes me want to think that you don't want any improvements made at all and don't care what the viewers think.

In regarding the relationship between the commentator chair and runner, I'd be willing to suggest that the commentator know little about the game being run, or, I think better put, be less interested in the run, especially for popular, middle length runs.  I know some commentators were very interested in some of the games, and the donations got behind as a result.

There has been more mention of the background chatter, with UA appreciating some of it to calm his nerves.  I think a balance needs to be made, I guess.  When the chatter begins to overpower anything the runner and commentator say, it needs to be addressed.  I don't think that end of it is a concern, though, because when background noise got too loud, effort was made to tone it down.  My main concern with that was that it came off as disinterest to the camera, which was exacerbated a bit when the runner, or someone wanting to comment on the run, tried to speak out and was drowned out.

Darkwing Duck

2011-01-12 01:47:20 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Carl Sagan:

For what it's worth, as someone with just a bunch of average gamer friends who don't know anything about speedruns, OoT was fantastic as it was, and all of the "casual" games like Castle Crashers were also incredibly entertaining for them to watch. Sample size of 6 Tongue

And I think this is why I didn't initially think the "type" of run mattered a whole lot when it comes to the average viewer's eye. This post really strengthens my belief on that stance. I don't think most people went into the OoT race as, "wow, cut scene hell." I think most people thought, "what? OoT is beaten in an hour thirty?" I think that was true of any game on the list, really. There are going to be fans of it, especially when the game is beaten so fast. I don't think play style will end up mattering to all but the people with intimate knowledge of the game in question.

ktwo

2011-01-12 02:21:13 pm

Slightly off-topic, but I gotta get this question out.

Flip, may I ask why you modified one of guest1's posts (on the first page) ? If a moderator goes in and edits a post of someone, already pretty much unheard of here at sda (I think), isn't it "good admin practice" to add an edit and explain that the content was inappropriate or whatever ? Because it couldn't possibly be so that Flip and guest1 are the same, could it ? Please tell me I have completely misunderstood this and that there is a rational explanation for this.

Flip

2011-01-12 02:38:21 pm

1-Up!

Lmao ktwo. I didn't edit guest1's post. I edited the name of the guest post that was initially "Fuck Usernames.". I changed it to guest2 to make it more appropriate. Ultimately I decided to delete the post. I'm not guest1 but it's hilarious that you try to imply that I am.

FYI DW, everybody at the marathon was a viewer at some point. We had the stream projected in the adjacent room and many of the attendees watched from next door. Don't pretend like none of us know what it's like to be a viewer.

Trekhaak

2011-01-12 02:51:03 pm

Everybody's favorite monster

A big Fuck You to all the haters.

Lag.Com

2011-01-12 02:57:01 pm

sda loyalist

I'd like to spill some bile but there isn't really much point.

Blatant projection of your own opinions is annoying and only serves to dilute any point you think you were making. There have been many useful suggestions and no unique ones have featured in this thread. Please close it.

ktwo

2011-01-12 03:00:47 pm

Well, it sure says that "Flip" edited guest1's post on the first page. I don't know anything about guest2. Never saw that post.

Thanks anyways for confirming that you're not guest1. I don't know you and I didn't know what to believe. Just saw what looked like an odd situation and wanted to clear it out. Sorry if I offended you in any way.

RoboSparkle

2011-01-12 03:14:04 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Back to the topic of generating more for charity:

How about a game to see who can predict results the best? Open it up for a week before the marathon starts, it's $10 to enter, and you have to predict the actual finishing times of each run, winners of races, etc. You get 10 points for the closest/correct time, 9points for next nearest etc, and whoever accumulates the most points over the course of the marathon wins a big prize (some games or a console or something)

Sound good?

dballin

2011-01-12 03:52:25 pm

Balls jerky

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

a perspective no one at the marathon could possibly have

Hey

I was a viewer, an attendee, and off-site chat op. Each of these things gave light to its own set of problems or concerns that someone that was only a viewer wouldn't quite grasp.

To all the people complaining about noise levels. The easy solution would be to eliminate everyone from the room that didn't need to be there right? That would leave only the runner(s), a commentator, someone reading donations, someone reading donation comments, someone talking about the prizes to be won, someone plugging the charity, someone plugging SDA, and preferably one person per chat following those and answering questions. So that comes out to about 10 people potentially all with something to say at any given time. Throw in SERIOUS TIME and it's amazing we covered as much stuff as we did with the people we had.

I may end up just PMing my thoughts to Mike or something cuz this thread is just getting ridiculous.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]a perspective no one at the marathon could possibly have[/quote]

Hey :( I was a viewer, an attendee, and off-site chat op. Each of these things gave light to its own set of problems or concerns that someone that was only a viewer wouldn't quite grasp.

To all the people complaining about noise levels. The easy solution would be to eliminate everyone from the room that didn't need to be there right? That would leave only the runner(s), a commentator, someone reading donations, someone reading donation comments, someone talking about the prizes to be won, someone plugging the charity, someone plugging SDA, and preferably one person per chat following those and answering questions. So that comes out to about 10 people potentially all with something to say at any given time. Throw in SERIOUS TIME and it's amazing we covered as much stuff as we did with the people we had.

I may end up just PMing my thoughts to Mike or something cuz this thread is just getting ridiculous.

dunnius

2011-01-12 03:56:03 pm

Intruding N313 and F014

This marathon went very well. Some of the things that went wrong this time will be improved next time because practice makes perfect, just like speedruns. This should not be a complaining thread; it must be constructive criticism.

As for the schedule, it is very hard to guess game timings. I agree with others that it is better to overestimate the times a bit and allow some time for setup. If there is extra time, it can be used for interviews, donation stuff, short games, or special tricks/stunts from various games. I expect to see the game setup speedrun next time Tongue

The chatter in the room was a little annoying at times, but it was generally not a problem. The commentator must also be in charge of who is the one speaking. Conversations should be in another room, or in a whisper so that it doesn't add background noise.

The biggest problem I had was with the ustream, especially during the races. I was also annoyed with the chat split. I always refreshed the chat screen until I was in chat 1. I believe the problem is with Flash, not so much with the bandwidth. I have DSL, but it is not that fast. But even so, the total bandwidth being sent to a user must be considered. Flash (which I absolutely hate) is far too demanding on the computer's CPU because it is not efficient. I imagine those with the newest hardware did not have a problem when there were extra videos to render. I put both streams on one computer, and the chat on my laptop. The chat would eventually go to 100% CPU, and would occasionally crash; not a good sign for something that simple. I had the same kind of problems with my other computer, but I am sure that the 100% CPU is what made the streams constantly go out of sync, lag, and be a bit choppy. With the extra screen for the races, my computer likely choked because it could not handle the extra rendering. If somebody wishes to do a test of this, I would volunteer to help since it was a always a problem for me. One solution to all this is to find a way to receive the video streams without relying on Flash.

This marathon went very well.   Some of the things that went wrong this time will be improved next time because practice makes perfect, just like speedruns.  This should not be a complaining thread; it must be constructive criticism.

As for the schedule, it is very hard to guess game timings.  I agree with others that it is better to overestimate the times a bit and allow some time for setup.  If there is extra time, it can be used for interviews, donation stuff, short games, or special tricks/stunts from various games.  I expect to see the game setup speedrun next time :P

The chatter in the room was a little annoying at times, but it was generally not a problem.  The commentator must also be in charge of who is the one speaking.  Conversations should be in another room, or in a whisper so that it doesn't add background noise.

The biggest problem I had was with the ustream, especially during the races.  I was also annoyed with the chat split.  I always refreshed the chat screen until I was in chat 1.  I believe the problem is with Flash, not so much with the bandwidth.  I have DSL, but it is not that fast.  But even so, the total bandwidth being sent to a user must be considered.  Flash (which I absolutely hate) is far too demanding on the computer's CPU because it is not efficient.  I imagine those with the newest hardware did not have a problem when there were extra videos to render.  I put both streams on one computer, and the chat on my laptop.  The chat would eventually go to 100% CPU, and would occasionally crash; not a good sign for something that simple.  I had the same kind of problems with my other computer, but I am sure that the 100% CPU is what made the streams constantly go out of sync, lag, and be a bit choppy.  With the extra screen for the races, my computer likely choked because it could not handle the extra rendering.  If somebody wishes to do a test of this, I would volunteer to help since it was a always a problem for me.   One solution to all this is to find a way to receive the video streams without relying on Flash.

dballin

Edit history:

dballin: 2011-01-12 03:58:10 pm

2011-01-12 03:57:24 pm

Balls jerky

Adblock the chat and connect using mIRC or a similar program. Problem solved.

Well, maybe not solved, but it is an obvious improvement.

Darkwing Duck

2011-01-12 04:08:49 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from dballin:

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

a perspective no one at the marathon could possibly have

Hey

I was a viewer, an attendee, and off-site chat op. Each of these things gave light to its own set of problems or concerns that someone that was only a viewer wouldn't quite grasp.

Well, I kind of mean that 99% of the viewers had no knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes (streams?) while they watched the marathon. I also am trying to take the perspective of how I assume were the majority of the viewers, fans of the games played with no knowledge on how to speedrun them, the kind of viewer I was during the OoT race.

I agree with the hushed speaking when talk wasn't about the game being played. I know Mike has wanted a less strict and formal structure to how the marathon look to viewers. It looked best when you have people in the background sitting entranced by what the runner is doing, and reacting demonstratively to good things happening in the run, as well as sharing the pain of the runner when something goes bad. I think that shows off very well on camera and shouldn't be eliminated because of the possibility of non-essential chatter going on.

[quote="dballin"][quote="Darkwing Duck"]a perspective no one at the marathon could possibly have[/quote]

Hey :( I was a viewer, an attendee, and off-site chat op. Each of these things gave light to its own set of problems or concerns that someone that was only a viewer wouldn't quite grasp.
[/quote]
Well, I kind of mean that 99% of the viewers had no knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes (streams?) while they watched the marathon.  I also am trying to take the perspective of how I assume were the majority of the viewers, fans of the games played with no knowledge on how to speedrun them, the kind of viewer I was during the OoT race.

I agree with the hushed speaking when talk wasn't about the game being played.  I know Mike has wanted a less strict and formal structure to how the marathon look to viewers.  It looked best when you have people in the background sitting entranced by what the runner is doing, and reacting demonstratively to good things happening in the run, as well as sharing the pain of the runner when something goes bad.  I think that shows off very well on camera and shouldn't be eliminated because of the possibility of non-essential chatter going on.

CMiller

2011-01-12 04:20:42 pm

The time estimates for games were submitted by runners in case you guys did not know. My suggestion for runners in order to keep the schedule next time:

Run a game about ten times without restarting and find the average, then add another 20%. This should give you a good estimate plus some wiggle room if you mess up or are doing well and want to show other stuff off.

Darkwing Duck

2011-01-12 04:25:08 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from CMiller:

The time estimates for games were submitted by runners in case you guys did not know. My suggestion for runners in order to keep the schedule next time:

Run a game about ten times without restarting and find the average, then add another 20%. This should give you a good estimate plus some wiggle room if you mess up or are doing well and want to show other stuff off.

I like that.

CMiller

2011-01-12 04:27:36 pm

Also I will practice Halo.

ssskinner

2011-01-12 04:31:16 pm

every game is a horror game

I think this thread could use some positivity, so I'd like to make some comments about what I think went right, in my opinion:

Although the schedule kept getting moved around, there were always people keeping on top of it to let people know what was the new timing. That was really helpful for me so I could know if something was pushed back. I'd suggest for next year also using twitter as a way to update ustream as to what game is currently being played (this will allow a viewer to follow the SDA twitter and be immediately informed if a run they want to see is starting -- you can make another twitter in order to separate those tweets).

Even though the chat was hectic, the mods were really great at keeping the weirdness at a minimum without actually being assholes about it. I really disagree with the idea of using slow mode. As someone who streams on a weekly basis with sometimes over 300 viewers, slow mode helps me to read the chat. Considering the marathoners do not need to read it, a quick moving and fun chat is a much better idea than people having to wait a minute to talk. I think you guys make a good choice not using it.

I also wanted to say even though people were tired, the person at the commentary chair seemed to always be friendly and fun. Breakdown was awesome at reading comments and Mike and Rane usually read chat a lot. I also liked Emptyeye's cheery nature. I do also think that the commentary chair should be for talking more to the player than the chat though. The people in the chat can read what everyone is saying, but knowing what the commentator is doing is what interests me.

Either way, I had a great time watching both last year and this year, and I hope to be able to come next time!

I think this thread could use some positivity, so I'd like to make some comments about what I think went right, in my opinion:

Although the schedule kept getting moved around, there were always people keeping on top of it to let people know what was the new timing. That was really helpful for me so I could know if something was pushed back. I'd suggest for next year also using twitter as a way to update ustream as to what game is currently being played (this will allow a viewer to follow the SDA twitter and be immediately informed if a run they want to see is starting -- you can make another twitter in order to separate those tweets).

Even though the chat was hectic, the mods were really great at keeping the weirdness at a minimum without actually being assholes about it. I really disagree with the idea of using slow mode. As someone who streams on a weekly basis with sometimes over 300 viewers, slow mode helps me to read the chat. Considering the marathoners do not need to read it, a quick moving and fun chat is a much better idea than people having to wait a minute to talk. I think you guys make a good choice not using it.

I also wanted to say even though people were tired, the person at the commentary chair seemed to always be friendly and fun. Breakdown was awesome at reading comments and Mike and Rane usually read chat a lot. I also liked Emptyeye's cheery nature. I do also think that the commentary chair should be for talking more to the player than the chat though. The people in the chat can read what everyone is saying, but knowing what the commentator is doing is what interests me.

Either way, I had a great time watching both last year and this year, and I hope to be able to come next time!

Ishmayl

2011-01-12 04:33:30 pm

Quote from Bromazepam:

Also, as it's been stated already, there was a bit of "priority issues" between runner and commentator voices. Often I was frustrated because I was trying to listen to the donation comments but the couch trio kept chatting and, while they probably didn't figure it out, the mic was catching only their voices due to the close proximity (this was especially bad during the Metroid Prime runs, since they had moved it closer).

Ah, I completely disagree with this priority issues thing. If the person running the game, or the person assisting (which is who was supposed to be on the couch, and was often the case) wants to talk about the game, I completely think they should get priority. Tri-hex kept wanting to talk about some cool things he was doing in SMW2, and the commentator (can't remember who it was) literally just kept talking over him completely, over and over again. I think the person who has the most knowledge on the game being played should be the one who is given priority

Quote from Bromazepam:

Irc chat: I'm not sure a screen dedicated to the chat would be an entirely good idea. This is the internet, and the internet is full of arses, and the commentator often did an excellent job in skipping all the hate and very insensitive comments. I don't think some of the runners would have wanted to read hate and trolls after just a couple of deaths. For some people that might just end up increasing the frustration.

I don't think that's an issue, the person playing the game is focused on more important things. Even if it could possibly be the case, it would be very little issue to turn the monitor away from the player.

Overall, very good run. Hopefully will be even more awesome next year.

[quote="Bromazepam"]
Also, as it's been stated already, there was a bit of "priority issues" between runner and commentator voices. Often I was frustrated because I was trying to listen to the donation comments but the couch trio kept chatting and, while they probably didn't figure it out, the mic was catching only their voices due to the close proximity (this was especially bad during the Metroid Prime runs, since they had moved it closer).[/quote]

Ah, I completely disagree with this priority issues thing.  If the person running the game, or the person assisting (which is who was supposed to be on the couch, and was often the case) wants to talk about the game, I completely think they should get priority.  Tri-hex kept wanting to talk about some cool things he was doing in SMW2, and the commentator (can't remember who it was) literally just kept talking over him completely, over and over again.  I think the person who has the most knowledge on the game being played should be the one who is given priority

[quote="Bromazepam"]
Irc chat: I'm not sure a screen dedicated to the chat would be an entirely good idea. This is the internet, and the internet is full of arses, and the commentator often did an excellent job in skipping all the hate and very insensitive comments. I don't think some of the runners would have wanted to read hate and trolls after just a couple of deaths. For some people that might just end up increasing the frustration.[/quote]

I don't think that's an issue, the person playing the game is focused on more important things.  Even if it could possibly be the case, it would be very little issue to turn the monitor away from the player.

Overall, very good run.  Hopefully will be even more awesome next year.

Darkwing Duck

2011-01-12 04:45:27 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from CMiller:

Also I will practice Halo.

Come on, now, you were thrown into an impossible situation of legendary proportions. I don't fault you for that.

Quote from ssskinner:

I think this thread could use some positivity, so I'd like to make some comments about what I think went right, in my opinion:

Although the schedule kept getting moved around, there were always people keeping on top of it to let people know what was the new timing. That was really helpful for me so I could know if something was pushed back. I'd suggest for next year also using twitter as a way to update ustream as to what game is currently being played (this will allow a viewer to follow the SDA twitter and be immediately informed if a run they want to see is starting -- you can make another twitter in order to separate those tweets).

Even though the chat was hectic, the mods were really great at keeping the weirdness at a minimum without actually being assholes about it. I really disagree with the idea of using slow mode. As someone who streams on a weekly basis with sometimes over 300 viewers, slow mode helps me to read the chat. Considering the marathoners do not need to read it, a quick moving and fun chat is a much better idea than people having to wait a minute to talk. I think you guys make a good choice not using it.

I also wanted to say even though people were tired, the person at the commentary chair seemed to always be friendly and fun. Breakdown was awesome at reading comments and Mike and Rane usually read chat a lot. I also liked Emptyeye's cheery nature. I do also think that the commentary chair should be for talking more to the player than the chat though. The people in the chat can read what everyone is saying, but knowing what the commentator is doing is what interests me.

Either way, I had a great time watching both last year and this year, and I hope to be able to come next time!

I don't have any experience with Twitter, but I think what you're saying is that when a new game starts, SDA sents a tweet out to all its followers? If I'm reading that right, that sounds like a good idea, save for getting tweets for five days at all weird hours.

Quote from Ishmayl:

Quote from Bromazepam:

Also, as it's been stated already, there was a bit of "priority issues" between runner and commentator voices. Often I was frustrated because I was trying to listen to the donation comments but the couch trio kept chatting and, while they probably didn't figure it out, the mic was catching only their voices due to the close proximity (this was especially bad during the Metroid Prime runs, since they had moved it closer).

Ah, I completely disagree with this priority issues thing. If the person running the game, or the person assisting (which is who was supposed to be on the couch, and was often the case) wants to talk about the game, I completely think they should get priority. Tri-hex kept wanting to talk about some cool things he was doing in SMW2, and the commentator (can't remember who it was) literally just kept talking over him completely, over and over again. I think the person who has the most knowledge on the game being played should be the one who is given priority

Quote from Bromazepam:

Irc chat: I'm not sure a screen dedicated to the chat would be an entirely good idea. This is the internet, and the internet is full of arses, and the commentator often did an excellent job in skipping all the hate and very insensitive comments. I don't think some of the runners would have wanted to read hate and trolls after just a couple of deaths. For some people that might just end up increasing the frustration.

I don't think that's an issue, the person playing the game is focused on more important things. Even if it could possibly be the case, it would be very little issue to turn the monitor away from the player.

Overall, very good run. Hopefully will be even more awesome next year.

I think that was a good example of a situation where the runner likes to explain what goes on in the game so he should get priority. I believe it was Cody that was one of the quieter runners, and that's when the commentators should speak up more, or person assisting (I like that term) could talk a bit more.

[quote="CMiller"]Also I will practice Halo.[/quote]
Come on, now, you were thrown into an impossible situation of legendary proportions.  I don't fault you for that.

[quote="ssskinner"]I think this thread could use some positivity, so I'd like to make some comments about what I think went right, in my opinion:

Although the schedule kept getting moved around, there were always people keeping on top of it to let people know what was the new timing. That was really helpful for me so I could know if something was pushed back. I'd suggest for next year also using twitter as a way to update ustream as to what game is currently being played (this will allow a viewer to follow the SDA twitter and be immediately informed if a run they want to see is starting -- you can make another twitter in order to separate those tweets).

Even though the chat was hectic, the mods were really great at keeping the weirdness at a minimum without actually being assholes about it. I really disagree with the idea of using slow mode. As someone who streams on a weekly basis with sometimes over 300 viewers, slow mode helps me to read the chat. Considering the marathoners do not need to read it, a quick moving and fun chat is a much better idea than people having to wait a minute to talk. I think you guys make a good choice not using it.

I also wanted to say even though people were tired, the person at the commentary chair seemed to always be friendly and fun. Breakdown was awesome at reading comments and Mike and Rane usually read chat a lot. I also liked Emptyeye's cheery nature. I do also think that the commentary chair should be for talking more to the player than the chat though. The people in the chat can read what everyone is saying, but knowing what the commentator is doing is what interests me.

Either way, I had a great time watching both last year and this year, and I hope to be able to come next time![/quote]
I don't have any experience with Twitter, but I think what you're saying is that when a new game starts, SDA sents a tweet out to all its followers?  If I'm reading that right, that sounds like a good idea, save for getting tweets for five days at all weird hours.

[quote="Ishmayl"][quote="Bromazepam"]
Also, as it's been stated already, there was a bit of "priority issues" between runner and commentator voices. Often I was frustrated because I was trying to listen to the donation comments but the couch trio kept chatting and, while they probably didn't figure it out, the mic was catching only their voices due to the close proximity (this was especially bad during the Metroid Prime runs, since they had moved it closer).[/quote]

Ah, I completely disagree with this priority issues thing.  If the person running the game, or the person assisting (which is who was supposed to be on the couch, and was often the case) wants to talk about the game, I completely think they should get priority.  Tri-hex kept wanting to talk about some cool things he was doing in SMW2, and the commentator (can't remember who it was) literally just kept talking over him completely, over and over again.  I think the person who has the most knowledge on the game being played should be the one who is given priority

[quote="Bromazepam"]
Irc chat: I'm not sure a screen dedicated to the chat would be an entirely good idea. This is the internet, and the internet is full of arses, and the commentator often did an excellent job in skipping all the hate and very insensitive comments. I don't think some of the runners would have wanted to read hate and trolls after just a couple of deaths. For some people that might just end up increasing the frustration.[/quote]

I don't think that's an issue, the person playing the game is focused on more important things.  Even if it could possibly be the case, it would be very little issue to turn the monitor away from the player.

Overall, very good run.  Hopefully will be even more awesome next year.
[/quote]

I think that was a good example of a situation where the runner likes to explain what goes on in the game so he should get priority.  I believe it was Cody that was one of the quieter runners, and that's when the commentators should speak up more, or person assisting (I like that term) could talk a bit more.

dballin

Edit history:

dballin: 2011-01-12 09:44:16 pm

dballin: 2011-01-12 06:38:11 pm

dballin: 2011-01-12 06:05:52 pm

dballin: 2011-01-12 06:02:13 pm

dballin: 2011-01-12 05:59:12 pm

dballin: 2011-01-12 05:57:55 pm

2011-01-12 05:56:40 pm

Balls jerky

Things I might be able to explain to people who weren't there:
Here's a really bad paint drawing I made about how the marathon room looked for those interested. Emphasis on the really bad.
The schedule was actually really easy to update. There was an excel file with formulas that automatically updated everything when you input the run time for the previous game. That was copy/pasted into a google doc which automatically updated the schedule. This was a significant improvement over the previous year's MANUAL UPDATES LOL

Problems I noticed as a viewer:
1) I didn't know about the Grand Prizes until Monday night during the Kirby runs. These should have been mentioned a lot more.
2) People on site need to pay attention to the chats more. The chat really wanted people at the marathon to pay attention to them. Most of the time it was for donation updates or other stuff that we did constantly like donation comments, but other times it was legit stuff like GO CATCH A DROWZEE!!! for 5 minutes without being read. There were some donation challenges that I'm sure we missed by not reading the chat. Last year I know it took me a few copy/pastes and a long time for someone to read "beat tmnt and you'll reach 5k" and that problem definitely wasn't fixed this year with the exception of Moooh. If we implement Rakuen's idea we could easily avoid that problem. If not, we really need at least one person per chat to follow them. 3 chats solo was fucking hard.

Problems I noticed as an attendee:
1) We need more than two people who know the tech side of things. It's great that Lag.com was able to help Nate. but when neither one of them was there hooking up even a single console became trial and error with which switch was connected to which console and to what TV, etc.
2) Also need to make sure that at all times someone is there to track donations and update schedules. Sunday morning we weren't tracking donations or updating the schedule because nobody was at the computer or told anyone else how to do it. Cody and I had no idea what we were doing, but we were pretty much the only ones there.
3) Have the person who is running the next game on deck ready to go with game/console/controller in hand before the previous run is over to minimize setup time required

Problems I noticed as an off-site chat mod:
1) There were like 10 of us and 3000 of them. Sad

2) We weren't able to answer certain questions or bring info to the people running the game/commentary which is why we need people on site to do this as well.
3) People are fucking blind. Half of them couldn't find the schedule even though it was in the topic title. I am in full support of having a page for FAQs, current donation totals, and the sda mini-yearbook, but I don't know how we're going to get people to see them short of a giant flashing gif.

I know SMK wants to automate the donations process as much as possible which i totally think is the best idea ever. I didn't have to man the donations app but it looked like a TON of manual text editing. One of the things I was thinking might be possible but not knowing how practical it would be was to have some kind of donation shop set up. Have one page that lists everything we're accepting donations for so that a user could click on Name Chrono Trigger character x and a box would open and you could put how much you want to donate and the name you choose which would then go right into the app. I don't know if that's what he meant, but that's what I was kicking around before I read this thread. I can't program for shit so like I said this may or may not be the most practical thing ever. Having the app export that info to an excel file or something we could put into google docs would also probably eliminate half the questions the chat has.

I'm done with this for now, but maybe I'll come back to it. Shoveling over 2 feet of snow makes my brain tired.

Things I might be able to explain to people who weren't there:
[url=http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/dballin4/wooopaint.jpg]Here's a really bad paint drawing I made about how the marathon room looked[/url] for those interested. Emphasis on the really bad.
The schedule was actually really easy to update. There was an excel file with formulas that automatically updated everything when you input the run time for the previous game. That was copy/pasted into a google doc which automatically updated the schedule. This was a significant improvement over the previous year's MANUAL UPDATES LOL

Problems I noticed as a viewer:
1) I didn't know about the Grand Prizes until Monday night during the Kirby runs. These should have been mentioned a lot more.
2) People on site need to pay attention to the chats more. The chat really wanted people at the marathon to pay attention to them. Most of the time it was for donation updates or other stuff that we did constantly like donation comments, but other times it was legit stuff like GO CATCH A DROWZEE!!! for 5 minutes without being read. There were some donation challenges that I'm sure we missed by not reading the chat. Last year I know it took me a few copy/pastes and a long time for someone to read "beat tmnt and you'll reach 5k" and that problem definitely wasn't fixed this year with the exception of Moooh. If we implement [url=http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/suggestions_and_comments_from_a_viewers_perspective._53.html]Rakuen's idea[/url] we could easily avoid that problem. If not, we really need at least one person per chat to follow them. 3 chats solo was fucking hard.

Problems I noticed as an attendee:
1) We need more than two people who know the tech side of things. It's great that Lag.com was able to help Nate. but when neither one of them was there hooking up even a single console became trial and error with which switch was connected to which console and to what TV, etc.
2) Also need to make sure that at all times someone is there to track donations and update schedules. Sunday morning we weren't tracking donations or updating the schedule because nobody was at the computer or told anyone else how to do it. Cody and I had no idea what we were doing, but we were pretty much the only ones there.
3) Have the person who is running the next game on deck ready to go with game/console/controller in hand before the previous run is over to minimize setup time required

Problems I noticed as an off-site chat mod:
1) There were like 10 of us and 3000 of them. :(
2) We weren't able to answer certain questions or bring info to the people running the game/commentary which is why we need people on site to do this as well.
3) People are fucking blind. Half of them couldn't find the schedule even though it was in the topic title. I am in full support of having a page for FAQs, current donation totals, and the sda mini-yearbook, but I don't know how we're going to get people to see them short of a giant flashing gif.

I know SMK wants to automate the donations process as much as possible which i totally think is the best idea ever. I didn't have to man the donations app but it looked like a TON of manual text editing. One of the things I was thinking might be possible but not knowing how practical it would be was to have some kind of donation shop set up. Have one page that lists everything we're accepting donations for so that a user could click on Name Chrono Trigger character x and a box would open and you could put how much you want to donate and the name you choose which would then go right into the app. I don't know if that's what he meant, but that's what I was kicking around before I read this thread. I can't program for shit so like I said this may or may not be the most practical thing ever. Having the app export that info to an excel file or something we could put into google docs would also probably eliminate half the questions the chat has.

I'm done with this for now, but maybe I'll come back to it. Shoveling over 2 feet of snow makes my brain tired.

Reiska

2011-01-12 06:34:39 pm

I'd like to throw in my own thoughts.

As a preface: The parts of the marathon I was able to watch were fantastic. Smiley

Re: chat - you guys did the best you could with moderation given the circumstances. The wild suggestion I have for next year is not directly incorporating ustream's chat applet on the front page though - it's a buggy and laggy mess. Don't get me wrong: there should certainly be a chat, but I'd suggest the front page simply having instructions for how to get into the marathon chat (which could possibly be in a room on the normal SDA channel's IRC server?) This would probably get around the 1500 limit that ustream has, among other things.

Re: schedules - I have to concur with what's been said in this thread - almost all of the game time estimates were a little too optimistic. As others in the thread have said, at least 5 minutes should be budgeted for setup between each games whenever equipment changes have to be made - more if you have to do complicated setup such as for races (more on those later). It's probably also a good idea to assume that every game on the schedule is going to go 5-10 minutes over schedule (or more for longer games), and plan accordingly - if games do finish on time or even early as some did, you can have a (surprise?) list of "extra", short games to insert in the schedule or other such "exhibition" content to fill time until the scheduled start of the next game. This could be anything from versus games (perhaps Smash Bros. matches?), to other games on the schedule being played by people other than their usual speedrunners for comedy, to simple glitch exhibitions or gimmick runs of popular games (for example, an SMB1 run without running). Filler content need not be speedruns necessarily, is what I'm trying to say. And I would agree with the suggestion that runs that are going too far over schedule should be segmented if possible.

Re: races - great idea, lousy execution. I would actually suggest, for next year, having three streams on the front page - two game streams and the commentary stream. The second game stream can be left offline for non-races, and this may overall be more bandwidth-friendly. Not sure how to best handle larger races though.

As a final note: the non-speedruns were very entertaining to watch too (Castle Crashers, Dr. Mario versus, etc.) It may be interesting to intersperse some skill run (attempts) along the speedruns, including perhaps of games not necessarily speedrun-capable like shmups.

I'd like to throw in my own thoughts.

As a preface: The parts of the marathon I was able to watch were fantastic. :)

Re: chat - you guys did the best you could with moderation given the circumstances.  The wild suggestion I have for next year is not directly incorporating ustream's chat applet on the front page though - it's a buggy and laggy mess.  Don't get me wrong: there should certainly be a chat, but I'd suggest the front page simply having instructions for how to get into the marathon chat (which could possibly be in a room on the normal SDA channel's IRC server?)  This would probably get around the 1500 limit that ustream has, among other things.

Re: schedules - I have to concur with what's been said in this thread - almost all of the game time estimates were a little too optimistic.  As others in the thread have said, at least 5 minutes should be budgeted for setup between each games whenever equipment changes have to be made - more if you have to do complicated setup such as for races (more on those later).  It's probably also a good idea to assume that every game on the schedule is going to go 5-10 minutes over schedule (or more for longer games), and plan accordingly - if games do finish on time or even early as some did, you can have a (surprise?) list of "extra", short games to insert in the schedule or other such "exhibition" content to fill time until the scheduled start of the next game.  This could be anything from versus games (perhaps Smash Bros. matches?), to other games on the schedule being played by people other than their usual speedrunners for comedy, to simple glitch exhibitions or gimmick runs of popular games (for example, an SMB1 run without running).  Filler content need not be speedruns necessarily, is what I'm trying to say.  And I would agree with the suggestion that runs that are going too far over schedule should be segmented if possible.

Re: races - great idea, lousy execution.  I would actually suggest, for next year, having three streams on the front page - two game streams and the commentary stream.  The second game stream can be left offline for non-races, and this may overall be more bandwidth-friendly.  Not sure how to best handle larger races though.

As a final note: the non-speedruns were very entertaining to watch too (Castle Crashers, Dr. Mario versus, etc.)  It may be interesting to intersperse some skill run (attempts) along the speedruns, including perhaps of games not necessarily speedrun-capable like shmups.

stanski

Edit history:

stanski: 2011-01-12 11:27:16 pm

stanski: 2011-01-12 11:10:47 pm

stanski: 2011-01-12 11:09:58 pm

2011-01-12 11:06:14 pm

wise fwom yo gwave

Quote from Trekhaak:

A big Fuck You to all the haters.

+1
+1
+1
+1

Seriously, focus on suggestions that actually increase money for donations please. Suggestions like about the prizes, random raffles, etc. are much more effective and useful than ones complaining about how your personal viewing experience wasn't as good as it could have been or how we ignored your comment in chat because we didn't have enough mods. If we were really serious about it, we really should have polled the average viewers/given those who donated a suggestion box to write in for after the marathon (i.e. they could have not only sent a comment, but also a suggestion for what they would like to see done differently). Not sure if this could be implemented easily, but yea its just a thought, because their opinion is way more important to us than to those on SDA who are more biased to wanting to see high level play and such.

Also, the OOT fighting is kind of ridiculous and unnecessary, but alec it probably would have been better to leave specific games out of it and just say scheduling needs to be fixed. When you come and say something about 2 specific games scheduling when the scheduling was messed up in a lot of parts, people are bound to get defensive.

Also, as much as I would love to play dodonpachi, RFJ, fire shark, fighting games etc., I'm not sure i agree with you reiska. I am sure others are also at a pretty high level in other genres that i'm not aware of, but i think it would really take the focus away to load up dodonpachi or whatever in the middle of the marathon. Also, it was an absolute blast playing jackie chan with josh, twinkle star sprites with mike, sonic 2 2 player with a bunch of random people etc., but i'm not sure that it accomplishes what we are aiming for here and takes the focus off the speedrunning. If people thought altered beast was just a playaround, I definitely wouldn't want to do it again, but others have the choice as to what they do and do not want to do. I just know that personally I am more of a fan of it being a more serious marathon to separate us from the numerous other people out there who play video games on stream. For the record I took altered beast seriously and was super pissed that we fucked up stage 5.

[quote="Trekhaak"]A big Fuck You to all the haters.[/quote]
+1 
+1
+1
+1

Seriously, focus on suggestions that actually increase money for donations please. Suggestions like about the prizes, random raffles, etc. are much more effective and useful than ones complaining about how your personal viewing experience wasn't as good as it could have been or how we ignored your comment in chat because we didn't have enough mods. If we were really serious about it, we really should have polled the average viewers/given those who donated a suggestion box to write in for after the marathon (i.e. they could have not only sent a comment, but also a suggestion for what they would like to see done differently). Not sure if this could be implemented easily, but yea its just a thought, because their opinion is way more important to us than to those on SDA who are more biased to wanting to see high level play and such.

Also, the OOT fighting is kind of ridiculous and unnecessary, but alec it probably would have been better to leave specific games out of it and just say scheduling needs to be fixed. When you come and say something about 2 specific games scheduling when the scheduling was messed up in a lot of parts, people are bound to get defensive.

Also, as much as I would love to play dodonpachi, RFJ, fire shark, fighting games etc., I'm not sure i agree with you reiska. I am sure others are also at a pretty high level in other genres that i'm not aware of, but i think it would really take the focus away to load up dodonpachi or whatever in the middle of the marathon. Also, it was an absolute blast playing jackie chan with josh, twinkle star sprites with mike, sonic 2 2 player with a bunch of random people etc., but i'm not sure that it accomplishes what we are aiming for here and takes the focus off the speedrunning. If people thought altered beast was just a playaround, I definitely wouldn't want to do it again, but others have the choice as to what they do and do not want to do. I just know that personally I am more of a fan of it being a more serious marathon to separate us from the numerous other people out there who play video games on stream. For the record I took altered beast seriously and was super pissed that we fucked up stage 5.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2011-01-12 11:55:43 pm

2011-01-12 11:55:25 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from stanski:

If we were really serious about it, we really should have polled the average viewers/given those who donated a suggestion box to write in for after the marathon (i.e. they could have not only sent a comment, but also a suggestion for what they would like to see done differently).

I like this idea. Since we have their email address, why not send them an email soliciting comment?