StarCraft 2 (WoL/HotS/LotV)

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2011-05-01 01:46:17 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

I haven't watched any speedruns cause I didn't want to spoil the campaign in case I play it later, so bare with me.

Quote:

During some engine of destruction runs it happened once that odin immidiatly ran to the second base. maybe it was because one of those mm balls pulled him "in front" of his trigger location

Interesting, if you could get that glitch to work I would suspect this could be useful since you could use odin on the later bases which I imagine are more reinforced and thus make things more efficient. Do you think you could get Odin to glitch to the last two bases this way?

mr.ioes

2011-05-01 08:12:25 am

Okay, first time I actually finished EoD it was after 18:37. Used nukes + ghosts. Pretty bad Grin

mr.ioes

Edit history:

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 01:34:33 pm

2011-05-01 12:55:18 pm

~~Another Victory condition seems to be Odin arriving at fourth base.~~
edit: nope, wrong. Just kill all buildings.

mr.ioes

Edit history:

mr.ioes: 2011-05-02 06:06:54 am

mr.ioes: 2011-05-02 06:06:38 am

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 03:25:37 pm

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 01:24:07 pm

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 01:23:54 pm

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 01:22:13 pm

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 01:21:01 pm

mr.ioes: 2011-05-01 01:20:33 pm

2011-05-01 01:19:14 pm

EoD 4th base with nukes.
Timewindows between Raven spawns are really short. 7-8 ghosts and 6 silos seem to be optimal. Killing the 2 ravens before entering the base is a pain in the ass without getting seeker missile'd so I had to exclude it in the video.

Need to check, if building addons count to the victory condition (edit: yes they do).
Current time: ~~17:12~~ 16:19

I don't know... I think there is no other strat rather than nuking the hell ot ouf them, it feels like the fastest strat, unless someone finds a glitch or something ...
Btw: When you nuke on the highground, units on the lowground don't run away even if in nukearea. Didn't check vice versa.

Spider-Waffle

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Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-02 06:40:12 am

2011-05-02 06:34:51 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

I wonder if you trick the AI into running all it's units under a nuke right before it explodes, maybe using a later nuke to move them into an earlier nuke? Why so many ghosts? The most nukes you had going at once was 4, seems like 2 ghosts could get get the job done in about the same amount of time, just build some silos and keep rebuilding nukes. Can't some vikings snipe the ravens with some good micro, plus they don't take that much gas. Or use Odin to snipe ravens and move onto later bases while you nuke in his footsteps.

mr.ioes

Edit history:

mr.ioes: 2011-05-02 08:24:22 am

2011-05-02 08:22:32 am

Yes you can trick the AI to go into earlier nukes, pretty much just like you said. However, I wouldn't care about units at all, you just need 2 special tanks in front of your base+a bunker with your starting rines to kill every wave approaching odin. And by the time Oding passes your base on that spot, the run is pretty much over currently at my progress (16:19)

There are some alternatives to "mass ghosts", which all have their cons/pros. 1 BC can instant yamato one raven and trigger seeker missile from the 2nd one in the 5th base. Finishing him off (the special BC won't survive that long I guess) could be done with 2+ ghosts or Vikings. Hmm sounds like a plan.

In the 4th base, I use up to 4 nukes simultaneously 2 times in a row. So 4 Ghosts, or at least 3, should be available.

edit: I didn't really use the inital wraiths after the first couple of minutes, maybe they can be the necessary force, along with a bc to get rid of those 2 ravens very quickly!

mr.ioes

Edit history:

mr.ioes: 2011-05-02 10:51:47 am

mr.ioes: 2011-05-02 10:51:27 am

mr.ioes: 2011-05-02 10:50:23 am

2011-05-02 10:48:48 am

4 ghosts + 8 silos seem perfect/necessary, as there are 8 nukes needed for base 3+4. Oh well, maybe 7/6 only for base 3, you surely can kill the bunker + factory in no time somewhere between the run with your tanks or whatever ^^

wfp

2011-05-02 03:51:47 pm

that looked cool. i think the options you have with the starting wraiths are have them shoot down stragglers alongside the ghosts to save a few seconds that way, send them after the bunker + factory you mentioned, or maybe set them to follow the odin to pick up time on the bases it kills itself (though you'd probably want to micro them towards doing something useful during the odin's downtime).

Spider-Waffle

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Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 04:17:15 am

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 04:10:51 am

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-02 05:11:46 pm

2011-05-02 05:04:48 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

So what do you start with, I'm guessing special BC, 2 special tanks, 3 wraiths, 6 marines or something?

I think you could use your ghosts+marines+wraiths to kill the second raven while it tries to get in range to seeker missile the BC, also if you could get the raven to seeker a wraith instead you could waypoint it around for awhile until the seeker times out. And how does it kill the BC, 2 seekers shouldn't even kill a normal BC let alone a special one.

Is waiting on 8 silos for the 4th base the limiting factor in speed? If so, what about using 4 or 5 silos and rebuilding initial wave of nukes right when the launches start? It seems you have to wait and pick at the other buildings for awhile anyway, like those starports. Then just make the last 4 nukes kill the last buildings instantly 4tw, I think if you positioned the left 2 nukes so one was closer to their silo and the other very slightly closer to depot could do it, also you could pick at the silo from safe range probably while the nukes are in place.

*EDIT*
Should probably try and figure out how nuke dmg works in more detail, I'm guessing there like 4 or 5 concentric AoE of dmg, Also SC had a system where an unit in the smallest AoE of damage would take either 3/5th it's total health or 500 dmg, which ever was greater, thus 2 nukes would kill any non-invincible unit, and 1 nuke could kill any unit 500hp or less, not sure if armor mattered. Armor would be something else to consider, because you'll have to pick at buildings some before and after nuking for a more optimized speedrun so would be beneficial to deal more dmg to higher armored buildings with nukes if all other factors are equal.

So what do you start with, I'm guessing special BC, 2 special tanks, 3 wraiths, 6 marines or something?

I think you could use your ghosts+marines+wraiths to kill the second raven while it tries to get in range to seeker missile the BC, also if you could get the raven to seeker a wraith instead you could waypoint it around for awhile until the seeker times out.  And how does it kill the BC, 2 seekers shouldn't even kill a normal BC let alone a special one.

Is waiting on 8 silos for the 4th base the limiting factor in speed?  If so, what about using 4 or 5 silos and rebuilding initial wave of nukes right when the launches start?  It seems you have to wait and pick at the other buildings for awhile anyway, like those starports.  Then just make the last 4 nukes kill the last buildings instantly 4tw, I think if you positioned the left 2 nukes so one was closer to their silo and the other very slightly closer to depot could do it, also you could pick at the silo from safe range probably while the nukes are in place.

*EDIT*
Should probably try and figure out how nuke dmg works in more detail, I'm guessing there like 4 or 5 concentric AoE of dmg,  Also SC had a system where an unit in the smallest AoE of damage would take either 3/5th it's total health or 500 dmg, which ever was greater, thus 2 nukes would kill any non-invincible unit, and 1 nuke could kill any unit 500hp or less, not sure if armor mattered.  Armor would be something else to consider, because you'll have to pick at buildings some before and after nuking for a more optimized speedrun so would be beneficial to deal more dmg to higher armored buildings with nukes if all other factors are equal.

Fragmaster01

2011-05-03 05:36:58 am

Wiggle wiggle

Liquipedia has a writeup on it here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Nuke
The tl;dr version: It does 300 to units, 500 to buildings. Center does full damage, inner circle does 50%, outer does 25%. The damage lines correspond directly to the circles on the targeting array, so you can see it when you aim the nuke.

Spider-Waffle

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Spider-Waffle

Edit history:

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:46:39 am

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:46:23 am

Spider-Waffle: 2011-05-03 06:43:33 am

2011-05-03 06:42:34 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

So how much HP does a CC or PF have these days, I think maybe 3 100%s and 1 50% instead of 4 100%s might kill it or come damn close and it would burn down very fast.

wait, so a direct nuke doesn't kill any full hp massive units or archons or immortals?

Zealie

Edit history:

Zealie: 2011-05-03 06:57:11 am

Zealie: 2011-05-03 06:56:04 am

2011-05-03 06:54:12 am

isn't archon 350/10?
I don't think there are any (normal) units with more then 500hp. And I don't consider mothership as normal btw.

[edit] oh I misread, I thought it also did 500 dmg to units. Hmmmm I thought it could kill of all units, but apparently not.
[edit2] was also wrong about archon health ;p

mr.ioes

Edit history:

mr.ioes: 2011-05-03 07:59:51 am

2011-05-03 07:59:06 am

I am pretty sure that nuking placements are perfect for the fourth base. 99% sure for third base. 80% for 5th.

Those outer lines (nuke graphic) are not 100% accurate. Damage to buildings is 500/250/125 as already mentioned. Going to try using those nuke guide in the evening.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2011-05-03 09:06:34 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

Are you sure, because it is possible to position a nuke in between two buildings so they both get 50%, or move it closer to one such that one gets 100% and other still 50%; or with 50% and 25% interchangeably.
Also, looked like those nukes on the bottom starport and CC weren't collinear with the closest corner hexes of the starport and CC.

PoC

2011-05-10 09:33:26 am

Shatter the Sky 4:47

failed to record sound Sad

— used 50% def to reduce the lag

requires: drop pods, marine upgrades, medic heal upgrade, auto harvest vespene, +vespene production, orbital command
yes I had more than those techs/upgrades but I dont think they are required.

Still trying to figure out a way to kill the bottom left base faster because I can destroy the other bases in 3:00. It would be enough if the ghosts would survive 2 seconds extra for their dmg spell but the nuke is down in 1.25 so it has to be cast earlier.

wfp

2011-05-10 07:17:40 pm

hehe, i like how the zerg flee the area as you drop the nuke. can't really see much room for improvement beyond potentially starting the nuke silos a second or two earlier and/or just general experimentation with your scvs (like if there's some way the cc reactor could be more economical than the auto-refinery (i'm kinda doubting it as i don't think i saw you build any additional scvs), or if you could kill the first base fast enough to use the additional resources you get from it).

i imagine you checked that there weren't any sweet spots you could hide cloaked ghosts and had to suicide them (did you attempt running them away?). also could a second barracks building ghosts help get the timing perfect between nukes? just thoughts that are probably not possible.

PoC

2011-05-10 09:46:46 pm

Limiting factor is actually not the nuke silo but the barracks: marine 0:25,marine 0:50,tech lab 1:15,ghost 2:03,ghost 2:51, ghost 3:39, ghost 4:27, NUKE DOWN 4:47
It is possible to destroy the other bases at ~2:15 and harvest the minerals at 3:00 but thats quite late to actually change something ... an additional barrack will take another minute 4:00 +1 marine = 4:25 ... so I doubt that this will be used. Also this will spawn the leviathan and thats a detector with enough range to kill the ghosts :/

currently thinking about a second barrack to train 3 marines synced to the ghosts-1s - yes it slows down the ghosts a bit because there arent enough minerals but it might allow me to cast psy lash at the tower before starting the nuke -> down to 3 ghosts.
Its better if time lost from not enough minerals is <= 48s which I think is true.

PoC

2011-05-11 08:07:39 am

correction: marines take only 23s so I lost 4 seconds overall ... 2 at the start and maybe +2 for the droppod falling animation cant think of anything else?

wfp

2011-05-11 09:54:28 am

only thing i can think of is that the leviathan shows up after you destroy two bases so you can get the resources from one base, but as you said i doubt it'll make much difference. if you're only seeing a potential 4 seconds that can be saved from this run, i can't imagine there's much more to be done.

slYnki

2011-05-13 01:49:14 am

XXY

I'd like to toss an idea up. I haven't read through this thread so forgive me if it's been mentioned. Would a full game, segmented (per mission) run interest anyone? I like the idea mainly for the potential of researching certain abilities that could aid in future missions, and researching an any% route could be entertaining.

Fragmaster01

2011-05-13 01:55:14 am

Wiggle wiggle

Quote from slYnki:

I'd like to toss an idea up. I haven't read through this thread so forgive me if it's been mentioned. Would a full game, segmented (per mission) run interest anyone? I like the idea mainly for the potential of researching certain abilities that could aid in future missions, and researching an any% route could be entertaining.

Deign was working on that last I checked. I've got a playlist on youtube of a Normal difficulty one, comes out to 2:20:35 real time. Note that many of PoC's videos show much better strategies for actually beating some of the later levels, though the general research structure remains intact.

slYnki

2011-05-13 12:12:00 pm

XXY

Cool. I think I'll give that youtube video a watch.

wfp

2011-05-13 07:15:01 pm

hi slynki, i'd definitely say there's interest. the normal run is worth checking out. though as mentioned some of the strategies are a bit dated. i think most of the research decisions are optimal as poc's shatter the sky run finally justifies to me at least that automated refineries are preferrable to cc reactor. only major deviation from the normal run i can think of is that ghost of a chance is way faster than breakout.

here's a link if you didn't find it already:

Gorash

2011-05-14 06:28:52 am

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Though you would have to test Ghost of a Chance on normal again. It's been ages since I played that mission on normal, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to jump so many hoops as on brutal.

Fragmaster01

Edit history:

Fragmaster01: 2011-05-14 10:42:14 am

2011-05-14 10:41:42 am

Wiggle wiggle

Gorash: I'll test it sometime this weekend, now that finals are over. Also, being less sick than last night, I'll elaborate on what I can recall for slYnki, sans levels Deign's done already, which you can watch on his Youtube channel:

* Cuthroat - The updated IL strategy doesn't work, I don't have nukes in time for this mission. It saves roughly 3 minutes when you can do it.
* The Dig - No one's pulled off my fast route on Brutal yet, I believe, at the moment it's a Normal Only strategy.
* Sinister Turn - You need more units to slip through the enemy base on Brutal. Someone's got this on Youtube somewhere.
* Moebius Factor - Pretty sure PoC's strat doesn't need any techs I don't have. My Hercules strategy has been obsoleted by the tank drop behind the second building.
* Supernova - Don't recall if I've seen a 4PR version of the quick strategy, someone post a link if such a thing exists. You need 4PR for drop pods by the next mission.
* Gates of Hell - See PoC's run for an upgraded use of Drop Pods. My "Drop after cutscene" strategy would be relegated to a single segment run, plus PoC's route upgrades in getting 100 supply.
* Shatter the Sky - Similar to Gates of Hell, mine is much more consistent to pull off, his is much faster and can still be done on any%, but will take a few tries to land right.

Gorash: I'll test it sometime this weekend, now that finals are over. Also, being less sick than last night, I'll elaborate on what I can recall for slYnki, sans levels Deign's done already, which you can watch on his Youtube channel:

* Cuthroat - The updated IL strategy doesn't work, I don't have nukes in time for this mission. It saves roughly 3 minutes when you can do it.
 * The Dig - No one's pulled off my fast route on Brutal yet, I believe, at the moment it's a Normal Only strategy.
 * Sinister Turn - You need more units to slip through the enemy base on Brutal. Someone's got this on Youtube somewhere.
 * Moebius Factor - Pretty sure PoC's strat doesn't need any techs I don't have. My Hercules strategy has been obsoleted by the tank drop behind the second building.
 * Supernova - Don't recall if I've seen a 4PR version of the quick strategy, someone post a link if such a thing exists. You need 4PR for drop pods by the next mission.
 * Gates of Hell - See PoC's run for an upgraded use of Drop Pods. My "Drop after cutscene" strategy would be relegated to a single segment run, plus PoC's route upgrades in getting 100 supply.
 * Shatter the Sky - Similar to Gates of Hell, mine is much more consistent to pull off, his is much faster and can still be done on any%, but will take a few tries to land right.