StarCraft 2 (WoL/HotS/LotV)

2011-03-06 04:05:25 pm

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Stimmed marines are the highest damage per supply and ressources. Marauders deal 20/1.5 = 13.33 dps vs armored, stimmed marines do 6/0.8608*1.5 = 10.46. That's without armor or shield bonus. A nexus starts at 1 armor, 0 shields, and gets upgraded to 1/1 fairly quickly. Versus 1 armor, marauders do 19/1.5 = 12.67 dps, stimmed marines do 5/0.8608*1.5 = 8.71. 2 marines are still 37% more damage than one marauder versus +1 armored. Still 16% more vs +2 armored. They first drop behind at +3 armored targets.

Also, don't focus too much on the time spent on nexi. Getting the battles before clean is way harder, even if it doesn't look like that in the video.

Fragmaster01

2011-03-06 06:22:35 pm

Wiggle wiggle

The idea was the damage versus time spent making them, not supply/resources. Since you have Orbital Depots and Automated Refineries, the only limiting factor should be how long it takes to make them, which isn't much of a difference if you use Tech Reactor(without it, Marauders are right out, though).

Gorash

2011-03-07 01:30:53 am

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Minerals are still scarce. Reactored vikings alone take (150*4 + 100) / (42*2) * 60 = 500 minerals per minute. I opted for 14 scvs IIRC, saturating the 7 patches optimally per scv. That's 588 minerals/minute assuming a 2 scv field yields ~84/minute. War Pigs are 250, so that's 3 minutes of minerals going there. If you look closely, you'll see, that I still only start saturaing the reactor after getting the War Pigs. Before that, I just haven't enough ressources. Double marauder would only eat away on my vikings.

Now command reactor, that's a choice I've been thinking about, especially as automated refinery costs 100 instead of 75 minerals. But even there, 4-5 gas harvesting scvs aren't cheap either.

Gorash

2011-03-16 01:48:03 am

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Cutthroat IL in 3:44

Nothing special. I just took the existing strategy of tritium4ever and squeezed it a bit. I think there are a few seconds still left in it, but I'd need Tech Reactor to take full advatage of that change.

wfp

2011-03-16 07:52:21 pm

i think you could potentially save a ton of time on safe haven by building missile turrets where you engage the purifier. you should have the resources/be able to spare a few scvs, they offer great dps plus i'm fairly certain that neither the turrets (as they're structures) nor the scvs (this needs to be double checked, but moving them out of the way can't be too difficult) cause the purifier to warp in its reinforcements.

but didn't someone claim this was doable saving all 5 outposts, not just the four in the vid, or am i misremembering?

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2011-03-17 04:39:21 am

2011-03-17 04:38:08 am

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Quote from wfp:

i think you could potentially save a ton of time on safe haven by building missile turrets where you engage the purifier.

That was one of my first ideas, but I put it off quickly. The main problem: The purifier itself does a hefty amount of damage and is only vulnearable long after it moves into place. I haven't tested this but I'm faily certain it will kill at least 4 turrets before I finish the last nexus. I was going to say the turrets trigger warp ins, but I'm not even certain about that now...

Edit: I'm going to test that tonight...

Gorash

2011-03-18 05:12:04 pm

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Ok I have tested turrets again, and you are right, neither turrets nor SCVs trigger the warp ins. And turrets do ridiculous amounts of damage. Problem is: I need a critical mass of about 12-15 turrets, because the purifier will kill about 6 of them before it gets vulnerable. That's a lot of minerals that cut directly into the mobile forces, which is noticable even on the second nexus. Still it might be faster.

wfp

2011-03-18 08:23:59 pm

yeah, it's probably only a couple seconds at best, and mainly comes down to resource management, potentially you could cut vikings in favor of turretts though and don't forget about the resources you get for holding off the first terror fleet that an scv or viking could easily pick up which you neglected in the previous run.

Gorash

2011-03-22 05:22:32 am

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That's already calculated in, otherwise it wouldn't even be possible to build all these turrets while pulling off scvs. I also skipped the second vespine. As I said, may be faster, but if so a lot harder to execute.

Btw. why has Dane Koponen removed his Breakout video?

PoC

2011-04-13 09:52:02 am

Welcome to the Jungle: 5:41
Supernova 6:11

wfp

2011-04-13 02:06:53 pm

nice runs PoC, though for supernova i think it'd be good to include the admittedly boring first section of the mission, and you also lose a few seconds by not queuing your nuke commands (also i think you only need 3 silos for constant nukes).

wfp

2011-04-13 02:09:30 pm

also i think you'd save a fair amount of time by dropping a scan for the first nuke rather than waiting for the marine.

PoC

2011-04-13 02:40:42 pm

The Moebius Factor 4:39:

Quote from wfp:

nice runs PoC, though for supernova i think it'd be good to include the admittedly boring first section of the mission, and you also lose a few seconds by not queuing your nuke commands (also i think you only need 3 silos for constant nukes).

You are correct it should be possible with 3 silos (3*20s vs 60s cd). Ill have to try that. It might also be possible to micro marines to the lower left corner to survive nukes and/or fly 1-2 banshees up to skip another nuke.
In the recorded version the marines skip 2 nukes already by dealing >500dmg combined.

PoC

2011-04-13 04:35:02 pm

Added the changes to my supernova strategy - thanks.
Supernova: 5:46

wfp

2011-04-13 05:53:55 pm

whoa, i'm pretty impressed by the time on the moebius run by itself, but watching the run leads me to believe it could be even faster. any way to engage the third building faster? get a second tank to building #2? get a reactor on the barracks for faster marines (maybe build one off the factory)? just ideas, the time itself is way faster than i ever thought the mission could be completed as is.

glad i could help on supernova. still think you could get the first nuke off with a scan by delaying the mule as well as some of the nukes (that you'll need the mule's resources to produce).

PoC

2011-04-14 03:09:48 am

Problem with starting with a scan is that the marines have to deal 500 damage + negate shield regeneration to skip 2 nukes and they probably wont deal enough damage if they start later or arent synced with the nukes and I dont think that I can start more than 20s earlier with a scan to make up for the nuke lost and still gain time. I messed up the early part with the 4 banshees lost 5 seconds there.

Moebius Factor: It should be possible to destroy core 3 at the same time as core 2 (3:39). A second tank would require gas, same is true for a reactor. Tech reactor takes 25 seconds longer than techlab so it slows down building 2 by 25s unless its somehow possible to mine gas for a second tank without running into mineral problems.

wfp

2011-04-14 10:01:00 am

supernova: hmm, didn't realize the timing of marines was such that it synched with the nukes so specifically. potentially there's something to be done with an additional nuking ghost or second barracks, but otherwise i think this supernova time may stand.

moebius: yeah, in general i thought that cores 2 and 3 should die simultaneously and was really just suggesting things that may make that happen. i wasn't talking about a tech reactor, just a normal reactor as i think you build so many marines that the reactor will ultimately allow you to produce more. you could even build the reactor from the factory and swap addons.

PoC

2011-04-14 12:02:00 pm

Moebius Factor in 4:17 - if core 2&3 are destroyed at the same time the game will force to listen to the complete transmission of core 2 before giving the core 3 transmission thats about ~40 seconds of unavoidable text.
I use 1 Marine next to the tank to start the core2 transmission a bit earlier. I destroyed core3 9s too late (I think the nydus worm transmission can be skipped). Without the 1 Marine the core3 transmission will stop at ~4:25

wfp

2011-04-14 01:10:31 pm

can you skip the text by destroying the datacores out of order? otherwise other than the timesavers you mentioned i don't see much room for improvement, though it looks like you're floating a couple hundred minerals at the end which could translate to more marines.

in particular though, i liked the mule drop at core 2 to get the attack going a little early.

PoC

2011-04-14 04:46:55 pm

Quote from wfp:

can you skip the text by destroying the datacores out of order? otherwise other than the timesavers you mentioned i don't see much room for improvement, though it looks like you're floating a couple hundred minerals at the end which could translate to more marines.

Datacore transmissions cant be skipped (well unless I misread the triggers). Nydus warning transmission (~5 seconds) can be avoided by destroying all 3 cores within 60 seconds of each other -> I should actually keep core 1 at some low hp level and destroy it with 1 marine after flying off.
In my run @ 2:29 core 1 is destroyed so at 3:29 the nydus msg is added to the que(nydus msg takes 8s).
It is delayed because at 3:22 Core 2 dies and transmits a msg for 32s (until 3:54) + 8s->4:02 for nydus then 2 seconds lost and at 4:04 core3 transmission starts(13s).
To speed it up further one has to either delay core 1(this has to be done with precision because core1 msg is 23s and it shouldnt delay core2/3
Or speed it up by more than 15s (7-15s would just change the transmission order)
Speeding up with stim should be possible to play nydus before core2 ~> 4:07. Further speedup would require core2 to die faster in turn requiring core1 to die even faster (remember the dropship also has to fly all the way to core1 and then core3 to get the troops on the new target unless core3 can be done with 1 medivac full of units + trained stuff in the required time which would allow core 1 to be delayed.

[quote="wfp"]can you skip the text by destroying the datacores out of order?  otherwise other than the timesavers you mentioned i don't see much room for improvement, though it looks like you're floating a couple hundred minerals at the end which could translate to more marines.[/quote] 
Datacore transmissions cant be skipped (well unless I misread the triggers). Nydus warning transmission (~5 seconds) can be avoided by destroying all 3 cores within 60 seconds of each other -> I should actually keep core 1 at some low hp level and destroy it with 1 marine after flying off.
In my run @ 2:29 core 1 is destroyed so at 3:29 the nydus msg is added to the que(nydus msg takes 8s).
It is delayed because at 3:22 Core 2 dies and transmits a msg for 32s (until 3:54) + 8s->4:02 for nydus then 2 seconds lost and at 4:04 core3 transmission starts(13s).
To speed it up further one has to either delay core 1(this has to be done with precision because core1 msg is 23s and it shouldnt delay core2/3
Or speed it up by more than 15s (7-15s would just change the transmission order) 
Speeding up with stim should be possible to play nydus before core2 ~> 4:07. Further speedup would require core2 to die faster in turn requiring core1 to die even faster (remember the dropship also has to fly all the way to core1 and then core3 to get the troops on the new target unless core3 can be done with 1 medivac full of units + trained stuff in the required time which would allow core 1 to be delayed.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2011-04-15 02:41:53 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

you guys still massacrering this game?

Gorash

2011-04-15 01:52:09 pm

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I'm innocent this time around.... but it's nice to see someone is actually producing new food for the masses. Smiley

PoC

2011-04-15 04:17:36 pm

Maw of the Void 3:46

PoC

2011-04-15 07:05:59 pm

working on gates of hell now:
Collecting all vespene should be enough so no need for a refinery -> double scv tech instead.
Mass vultures for supply or is there a faster way? How to rescue the factory without losing anything?
Nukes have to be in the falling down animation between 4.0s & 4.4s after reaching 100 supply. If launched too early nukes wont hit the nydus worms, if launched too late the nukes will be canceled. <- This might get really annoying without save&load Smiley

proof that this is a working strategy

wfp

2011-04-15 10:24:08 pm

i think mass medics is the fastest for supply on gates of hell, though it requires gas. i think 2x scvs is still faster than an autorefinery(especially in building supply), though requires awkward micro to saturate the gas and minerals properly.

nice work on maw of the void, didn't realize the specialist upgrade would affect bcs.