StarCraft 2 (WoL/HotS/LotV)

2010-08-02 04:58:52 am

Heyyy... wait.. i don't know you. Don't confuse me

Quote from Arrow:

Another question - would we only accept runs on Easy and Brutal?

There are a few games on SDA that have been run on different difficulties. Cant see a reason why SC2 should be an exception. Easy would be just plowing through everything, more focused on the makro-ing while Brutal would be much more Micro-ing. Also your choices in upgrades and units sure would be different.

RandomEngy

2010-08-02 12:46:17 pm

A Crab

Having IL runs would be kind of forced. Seems to me like an official run should be for the campaign. Even if you decide you can have whatever upgrades you want for that run, how many credits do you get to spend? Anyway, do you know if you can share singleplayer game saves? Aren't they synced to the Battle.net servers or something?

Snabbdist

Edit history:

Snabbdist: 2010-08-02 01:29:08 pm

2010-08-02 01:17:57 pm

Quote from RandomEngy:

Having IL runs would be kind of forced. Seems to me like an official run should be for the campaign. Even if you decide you can have whatever upgrades you want for that run, how many credits do you get to spend? Anyway, do you know if you can share singleplayer game saves? Aren't they synced to the Battle.net servers or something?

You can use the save feature without internet connection. so that information is stored locally.

edit: "C:\Users\John\Documents\StarCraft II\Saves\" Smiley

Deign

2010-08-02 10:17:51 pm

I do stuff

Quick tip for the first mission you do for Dr. Hanson. If you kill the convoys near the end, the colonists will enter the ship quicker.

Abaddon

2010-08-02 10:50:55 pm

Heyyy... wait.. i don't know you. Don't confuse me

Not all can be killed, since they enter the shuttle as well and count as a rescued colonist.

Maybe the last two or three, i cant exactly remember how many colonists there overall are.

Seikusa

2010-08-03 07:06:31 am

if you would count each mission seperatly, it will be a lot of work since you would have to play the campaign until the mission, you would like to play, is the last available mission.
then finish it with the most upgrades since they will make you complete it faster.

maybe it can be only the necessary mission will make the choice easy, because maybe there is only one path to play complete it in the fastest way.

well how will this be decided?
by an offical?
since i want it to be clear befor making an attempt.

Liderharen

2010-08-03 07:26:53 am

Either way you look at it IL runs is just not suited for this game...

Even if you find some obscure way to do it, it still wont represent the actual fastest way to complete the game! The only real way to do it is to treat the entire campaign as a whole...

IL didnt work for wc3 and its not gonna work for sc2!

uanime5

2010-08-03 11:20:54 am

Though there are some problems with runs for Starcraft 2 it's not impossible to make a run for this game. SDA already has several run in which the player has obtained an advantage by previously completing the game (Zelda 2 on the NES for example). Therefore there's no problem comparing runs by people who have purchased as many upgrades as they can and then redone some of the levels.

In many cases upgrades do not affect a run because of the way Starcraft 2 has been designed.

The following levels are not affected by upgrades:
1) All the Protoss levels, as the upgrades are for Terran units/buildings only.
2) Possibly 'Breakout' as the AI controls the army (I'm unsure if the army benefits from your research).

These levels are not affected by all upgrades:
1) 'Liberation Day', 'Breakout', 'Ghost of a Chance' and any level where you can't recruit more soldiers are not affected by building or mercenary upgrades. Though some can be affected by unit upgrades.
2) Mission where you can't build Mercenary recruiters are not affected by mercenary upgrades.
3) The earlier levels restrict your access to technology so some upgrades are not available even if you've purchased them. For example the Shrike Turret (bunker upgrade) is not available in Zero Hour.

Though there are some problems with runs for Starcraft 2 it's not impossible to make a run for this game. SDA already has several run in which the player has obtained an advantage by previously completing the game (Zelda 2 on the NES for example). Therefore there's no problem comparing runs by people who have purchased as many upgrades as they can and then redone some of the levels.

In many cases upgrades do not affect a run because of the way Starcraft 2 has been designed.

The following levels are not affected by upgrades:
1) All the Protoss levels, as the upgrades are for Terran units/buildings only.
2) Possibly 'Breakout' as the AI controls the army (I'm unsure if the army benefits from your research).

These levels are not affected by all upgrades:
1) 'Liberation Day', 'Breakout', 'Ghost of a Chance' and any level where you can't recruit more soldiers are not affected by building or mercenary upgrades. Though some can be affected by unit upgrades.
2) Mission where you can't build Mercenary recruiters are not affected by mercenary upgrades.
3) The earlier levels restrict your access to technology so some upgrades are not available even if you've purchased them. For example the Shrike Turret (bunker upgrade) is not available in Zero Hour.

Lorashkar

2010-08-03 12:11:41 pm

I believe AI controlled units in Breakout are not affected by your upgrades, I couldn't see slow-down weapon upgrade on marauders which I bought.

Requiem

2010-08-03 05:31:53 pm

... for a dream, of course.

By the way, this guy is playing (and recording on HD) campaign on brutal, including crystal missions and his tech/mercs/upgrades decisions:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CostinMoroianu

Although he isn't speedruning it's always nice to see the missions played on brutal (some of them are, in my opinion, a pain on the ass).

Abaddon

2010-08-03 05:37:06 pm

Heyyy... wait.. i don't know you. Don't confuse me

Watching someone else play can give you an idea of how to approach certain situations as opposed to just "blacksheepwall" the entire thing and stare at it.

He also talks a little and being informative as well as being entertaining.

Arrow

2010-08-03 06:24:11 pm

Now a hit show on the CW

I agree that while this game is definitely more suited for full game runs, at the very least we should allow ILs for the levels which aren't influenced by upgrades (the Mar Sara and Prophecy missions), and maybe the rest if we can reach a consensus on whether to restrict upgrades or not.

Deign

2010-08-04 01:02:05 am

I do stuff

I would be against any restrictions. Any upgrade that is available at the point in the game aught to be allowed. Mostly because I come from a TAS type of background, I like any edge allowed. Allowing all available upgrades allows us to know best times for each level.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-08-04 02:18:42 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

You could plan out a full game run with upgrades and do it one segment/level which I still can't believe isn't an official category, but there's only small chance someone would try to obsolete a OSPL with more segments, unfortunately SDA has no plan of action once this happens. Always discouraging more segments with a OSPL run isn't very nice to anyone that wanted to make a fully segmented run.

You could also have an IL table, just decide on either no ups or all ups. I think no ups would make more sense, that's kind of like quake ILs.

Abaddon

2010-08-04 04:52:34 am

Heyyy... wait.. i don't know you. Don't confuse me

So it would come down to NG/No UPs IL, NG+ All UPs IL, NG Any%, NG+ Any%, and the variations of 100% on those as well... (+ anything i have missed ofc)

And Upgrades should be regarded as a whole. As one single thing. Dont restrict the usage of single upgrades. Either allow them or dont. Some people prefer one upgrade over the other. Playstyles differ, so will the upgrades then.

Deign

2010-08-05 09:06:17 pm

I do stuff

Well I finally just finished my Brutal Campaign, but I did all 29 missions. My total time was a little more than 12 hours in-game time. So I would in fact find it interesting to see what kind of times someone can get when they are really trying to speedrun. I can't imagine it'll be anything less than about 6 hours if you skip irrelevant levels. After playing through several times, I think there's the 3 protoss missions and 3 or 4 missions you can skip and just go straight to char. Once again, even on Brutal, all I needed was a roaming squad of banshees and a stack of tanks on either side for All in.

Btw, if anyone wants to add me in game my Character code is 146

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-08-05 11:01:31 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

I'd be really surprised if a decent run was over 6 hours. If it's anything like SC and BW. People probably thought 6 hours would be crazy fast for those games when they first came out, now we're under 3 on both.

Deign

2010-08-05 11:20:10 pm

I do stuff

The difference is that half the levels aren't timed based on how quickly you can go through it. Most of the levels are timed on in-game things. Such as the dig's laser cannon, All-in's charge up on the artifacts. The colonists transports. The Great Train Robbery. The list goes on.

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-08-06 12:30:35 am

Don't think! feeeeeal

Ya but you still might find glitches later down the road that bypass stuff like that like I did for BW.

Bp_

2010-08-06 05:28:05 am

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

I'd be really surprised if a decent run was over 6 hours. If it's anything like SC and BW. People probably thought 6 hours would be crazy fast for those games when they first came out, now we're under 3 on both.

quote from TL.net:

Quote:

Mission - Minutes.Seconds - Total Hours.Minutes.Seconds (please excuse any math mistakes, this is all by hand) (* means plan on improving easily)
Lib Day - 3.41 - 0.3.41
Outlaws - 6.45 - 0.10.26
0 Hour - 20.12 - 0.30.38
The Evac - 24.53 - 0.55.31
Smash/Grab - 12.44 - 1.08.15
Devil's Playground - 14.39 - 1.22.54
*Welcome to the Jungle - 22.41 - 1.45.35
*Train - 27.24 - 2.12.59
Cutthroat - 17.05 - 2.30.04
*The Dig - 31.28 - 3.01.32
Whispering Doom - 14.18 - 3.15.50
Sinister Turn - 12.56 - 3.28.46
Echoes of the Future - 17.17 - 3.40.03
*Utter Darkness - 48.02 - 4.28.05
Engine of Destruction - 20.40 - 4.48.45
Moebius Factor - 11.39 - 5.00.24
SuperNova - 21.05 - 5.21.29
Outbreak - 13.10 - 5.34.39
Safe haven - 12.12. - 5.46.51
Maw of the Void - 19.45 - 6.06.36
Gates of hell - 9.50 - 6.16.20

This is without any current try of real speedrunning.
I dini't did a reall check but I think the mission that are really timed arn't present (ie: "All in" and other)

[quote="Spider-Waffle"]
I'd be really surprised if a decent run was over 6 hours.  If it's anything like SC and BW.  People probably thought 6 hours would be crazy fast for those games when they first came out, now we're under 3 on both.
[/quote]

quote from TL.net:

[quote]Mission - Minutes.Seconds - Total Hours.Minutes.Seconds (please excuse any math mistakes, this is all by hand) (* means plan on improving easily)
Lib Day - 3.41 - 0.3.41
Outlaws - 6.45 - 0.10.26
0 Hour - 20.12 - 0.30.38
The Evac - 24.53 - 0.55.31
Smash/Grab - 12.44 - 1.08.15
Devil's Playground - 14.39 - 1.22.54
*Welcome to the Jungle - 22.41 - 1.45.35
*Train - 27.24 - 2.12.59
Cutthroat - 17.05 - 2.30.04
*The Dig - 31.28 - 3.01.32
Whispering Doom - 14.18 - 3.15.50
Sinister Turn - 12.56 - 3.28.46
Echoes of the Future - 17.17 - 3.40.03
*Utter Darkness - 48.02 - 4.28.05
Engine of Destruction - 20.40 - 4.48.45
Moebius Factor - 11.39 - 5.00.24
SuperNova - 21.05 - 5.21.29
Outbreak - 13.10 - 5.34.39
Safe haven - 12.12. - 5.46.51
Maw of the Void - 19.45 - 6.06.36
Gates of hell - 9.50 - 6.16.20[/quote]

This is without any current try of real speedrunning.
I dini't did a reall check but I think the mission that are really timed arn't present (ie: "All in" and other)

Deign

Edit history:

Deign: 2010-08-06 06:22:56 am

2010-08-06 05:55:23 am

I do stuff

Well I have to ask if these are individual level best times or sequenced best times, because in a real segmented run you wouldn't be able to use different upgrades for the different levels, they would have to be in succession. i.e. No doing the great train robbery with siege tanks if the dig hasn't been completed. Also the list is missing the last 2 levels at the very least, as you mentioned. And there is no getting around the fact that All in is 30min.

I can say however that my time on the great train robbery was significantly faster than this list is. Mine was 20:45 without missing a train and killing the last train at the entrance i.e. before it even made it on to the map =D

NONOCE

2010-08-06 11:27:01 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Here is a 7min41 run I did on The devil's Playground mission for fun.

There is still room for improvement with gathering the crystal items mainly.

Miraj

Edit history:

Miraj: 2010-08-06 07:44:10 pm

2010-08-06 06:04:48 pm

i´ve finally ran Echoes of the future on brutal. it´s pretty much pure luck if you survive it or not, but it´s kinda fun to run it.

have fun:

Edit:

i done a sinister turn in 6:49 on hard:

i think its possible in 8 minutes on brutal.

Hugo123

Edit history:

Hugo123: 2010-08-06 09:37:32 pm

2010-08-06 09:18:53 pm

Do I understand it correctly that you don't need all missions for a any% run?

Then it will be way below 6h with your time table.

Mar Sara 1: Liberation Day
Mar Sara 2: The Outlaws
Mar Sara 3: Zero Hour
Artifact 1: Smash and Grab
+
3 fastest missions until this point.
+
Artifact 2: The Dig - Must have completed 8 other missions to access.
+
2 fastest missions until this point.
+
Artifact 3: The Moebius Factor - Must have completed 11 other missions to access.
+
2 fastest missions until this point.
+
Artifact 4: Supernova - Must have completed 14 other missions to access.
Artifact 5: Maw of the Void
Final 1: Gates of Hell
Final 2a: Belly of the Beast or Final 2b: Shatter the Sky
Final 3: All-In

Makes 19 missions.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Campaign

Upgrades are never available in already completed missions. So you if get a sieg tank later you can't redo a previous level with a tank. (Armory upgrades aren't available as well as you can see when you upgrade the bunker and redo "Zero Hour". (I'm not sure if this is true for all missions.)

The new technology is available at the missions where you have to choose. If you do "Save Heaven" and go on and play "Havens Fall" later you have alll technologies and upgrades in this mission making it a lot easier and faster. (Mercenary Vikings which you normally get after this missions but you got it already for saving heaven.)
Saving heaven should be harder so you can save time with a game+ here (if it's allowed).
(This is irrelevant at the choice on char as you don't get anything new and almost useless with Tosh/ghost as you can't build any units yourself.)

I got 20:07 on the train on normal but on brutal this is probably not doable as the train has 1000 more life and you have a lower army. Wink

Do I understand it correctly that you don't need all missions for a any% run?

Then it will be way below 6h with your time table.

Mar Sara 1: Liberation Day 
Mar Sara 2: The Outlaws 
Mar Sara 3: Zero Hour
Artifact 1: Smash and Grab
+
3 fastest missions until this point.
+
Artifact 2: The Dig - Must have completed 8 other missions to access.
+
2 fastest missions until this point.
+
Artifact 3: The Moebius Factor - Must have completed 11 other missions to access.
+
2 fastest missions until this point.
+
Artifact 4: Supernova - Must have completed 14 other missions to access. 
Artifact 5: Maw of the Void
Final 1: Gates of Hell 
Final 2a: Belly of the Beast or Final 2b: Shatter the Sky 
Final 3: All-In

Makes 19 missions.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Campaign

Upgrades are never available in already completed missions. So you if get a sieg tank later you can't redo a previous level with a tank. (Armory upgrades aren't available as well as you can see when you upgrade the bunker and redo "Zero Hour". (I'm not sure if this is true for all missions.)

The new technology is available at the missions where you have to choose. If you do "Save Heaven" and go on and play "Havens Fall" later you have alll technologies and upgrades in this mission making it a lot easier and faster. (Mercenary Vikings which you normally get after this missions but you got it already for saving heaven.)
Saving heaven should be harder so you can save time with a game+ here (if it's allowed).
(This is irrelevant at the choice on char as you don't get anything new and almost useless with Tosh/ghost as you can't build any units yourself.)

I got 20:07 on the train on normal but on brutal this is probably not doable as the train has 1000 more life and you have a lower army. ;)

NONOCE

Edit history:

NONOCE: 2010-08-07 09:20:39 am

2010-08-07 08:57:06 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Here is a Welcome to the jungle in 12min35 on brutal:

Upgrades used: The 2 armory upgrades for the bunker.

Key for improvement here is to understand how exactly these protoss attack.

It look like heros chatter delay their attack as if I build my first bunker too soon they attack it right away. Also retreiving all the canisters at the same time lessen the number of enemies that will retaliate.