StarCraft 2 (WoL/HotS/LotV)

Onin

2013-04-27 06:37:01 pm

How dare you contain this thread with off-topic vide-aww that was cute.

jolin012

Edit history:

jolin012: 2013-04-28 01:56:13 pm

2013-04-27 07:19:03 pm

In answer to your first question dime, whether reckoning can be done w/o mutas: I'm working on a strat at the moment very similar to the death from above one: kinetic blast+psionic shift+mend+burrow focusing on taking out detectors. Here's the first 2 minutes:
Edit: A full video is in the next post, so this one no longer has much relevance

All thats left is to figure out a way to deal with spontaneous science vessles. (probably psyonic shift is enough if you dont spot it early enough to save up a kinetic blast). alternatively figuring out their timing to be ready for them. This should make for a 5:10 run sealing the deal with dominate.

wfp

2013-04-28 12:19:53 am

wow, jolin once you get the timing down on the science vessels that definitely looks viable.

jolin012

Edit history:

jolin012: 2013-04-28 01:40:14 pm

jolin012: 2013-04-28 01:39:40 pm

2013-04-28 01:30:16 pm

The Reckoning 7:03 [Brutal]

Comments:
Ok, 5:10 turns out seemingly impossible without some drastic improvements to the strategy, Apocalypse (what i meant when i said "dominate" in last post) feels very dangerous to cast due to costing so much energy that mend cannot be used and i chicken out because im not ready for the energy to be out. What should be done is probably when its at 800 health and kerrigan has full health:
unburrow
channel apocalypse.
mend
cast kinetic blast.
Saves ~15 sec from just kinetic blasting.
alternatively some clever levi/primal zerg usage.

at home base we're just using raynors base to survive our structures. Probably another 40-80 seconds can be saved just by getting into position with kerrigan faster and smoother and requiring less time hanging with the warhounds to heal up, wasting fewer blasts on units in general.

Strat Tips:
When Odin(badass thor) walks over, dont unburrow til he turns around. try to always be at high health if you want to be rather safe than sorry ie if in a ss run. this is done by targeting some units down instead of mengsk's palace. Keep Mengsk on the upper right corner of your screen so you can see the vessles coming better. if vessle shows up right after you launched kinetic blast you better hope to have enough health and do the following: unburrow, mend if ready, psionic shift to the left, mend if ready, keep walking left but not into range of a missile turret. kinetic blast should be ready to take vessle out and burrow.

The Reckoning 7:03 [Brutal]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d44Iq0JLiwk

Comments:
Ok, 5:10 turns out seemingly impossible without some drastic improvements to the strategy, Apocalypse (what i meant when i said "dominate" in last post) feels very dangerous to cast due to costing so much energy that mend cannot be used and i chicken out because im not ready for the energy to be out. What should be done is probably when its at 800 health and kerrigan has full health:
unburrow
channel apocalypse.
mend
cast kinetic blast.
Saves ~15 sec from just kinetic blasting.
alternatively some clever levi/primal zerg usage.

at home base we're just using raynors base to survive our structures. Probably another 40-80 seconds can be saved just by getting into position with kerrigan faster and smoother and requiring less time hanging with the warhounds to heal up, wasting fewer blasts on units in general.

Strat Tips: 
When Odin(badass thor) walks over, dont unburrow til he turns around. try to always be at high health if you want to be rather safe than sorry ie if in a ss run. this is done by targeting some units down instead of mengsk's palace. Keep Mengsk on the upper right corner of your screen so you can see the vessles coming better. if vessle shows up right after you launched kinetic blast you better hope to have enough health and do the following: unburrow, mend if ready, psionic shift to the left, mend if ready, keep walking left but not into range of a missile turret. kinetic blast should be ready to take vessle out and burrow.

Gorash

2013-04-28 04:31:34 pm

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To answer the previous questions about my muta testing on the reckoning: I got best results with 30 mutas. It's very close if you take vespine efficiency or double drones, you get them done around 9:30. I did not use any strains, only armor piercing. 7:03 is extremely hard to do with mutas, I for sure can't do it. Question is if the Ninja Kerrigan strat is viable in SS. It looks very hard to pull off.

NitroxKnight

2013-04-28 04:33:58 pm

@jolin012
It worked i go 8:44 but that was really sloppy. Well done on the route finding.
I'm now working on my first ss run of HOTS and i'm now at mision 8. My ss will be done in 3 days and it will be on youtube/twitch.

Onin

2013-04-28 05:45:44 pm

Wouldn't a combination of Ninja Kerrigan plus a smaller flock of mutalisks ultimately be optimal?

wfp

2013-04-28 07:05:40 pm

nice run of the reckoning. i kinda wonder about the necessity of taking out the seige breaker a couple times and i understand that apocalypse leaves you pretty vulnerable so have you considered drop pods? they'll draw fire away from kerrigan and though they probably won't do great damage before dying, it's something... heck if you could use them to clear out the forces enough so you can use leaping strike instead of kinetic blast it may even become way faster (leaping strike is faster dps than kinetic blast). i do worry somewhat with ss though. kerrigan's hp, mp, and attack power will be nerfed somewhat in ss which means slight adjustments may need to be made for caution.

jolin012

2013-04-28 11:39:49 pm

lots of clever questions and ideas.

Drop pods:
I have tried this. only I was dumb enough to do it when mengsk was at half health. Turns out this triggers mengsk to call in reinforcements with his own drop pods. So for a realistic attempt, should be done when thing is it less than, Idont know, 1100? 800? health. and just focus it down with kerrigan unburrowed, while droppods arrive to hurt you. If this works well I would expect you can save 10-20 seconds over a good apocalypse. Possibly more if in combination with clever usage of additional reinforcements.

Mutalisks:
@onin Definitely we wanna spend our money on something. This game i was experimenting with upgrades and no they dont help kerrigan. I will extend this to Mutalisks/Roaches/Infestors. If path is cleared of missilturrets, it should be easy enough to reinforce. ofcourse, how they are used is the real question. Roaches and Infestors have great synergy. Roaches replenish life, and Infestors need to consume. Infestors and steal science vessles as well as ordinary units, helping keep kerrigan alive. Maybe with this strategy it would be worthwhile taking odin(2500hp) out instead of mengsk(5000hp), to later unburrow and face mengsk. Infested units or even just the infestor roach will very likely trigger drop pods alone, but this may not be a problem if we can convert a bunch quickly.

SS:
@Gorash, Yes this would be extremely hard if not impossible to pull off with less health and energy. But only at the one specific place where we ninja through kill two turrets and burrow. I am sure we can find a nice midstop safezone after killing only one turret. @wfp taking out units I dont think is necessary, only an adjustment for caution and you are right really only belongs in an ss run. but taking out units=> more hp to spare for spontaneous vessle escapes.

Leaping Strike VS Kinetic Blast:
@wfp yes it is faster dps. I only feel its downsides are too drastical. It is only melee so vessles would be killed by hand or with infestor. shorter range, so we need to be in range of Odin, he kills us very easily, even if we only unburrow to mend he will kill us faster.

lots of clever questions and ideas.

Drop pods:
 I have tried this. only I was dumb enough to do it when mengsk was at half health. Turns out this triggers mengsk to call in reinforcements with his own drop pods. So for a realistic attempt, should be done when thing is it less than,  Idont know, 1100? 800? health. and just focus it down with kerrigan unburrowed, while droppods arrive to hurt you. If this works well I would expect you can save 10-20 seconds over a good apocalypse. Possibly more if in combination with clever usage of additional reinforcements.

Mutalisks:
@onin Definitely we wanna spend our money on something. This game i was experimenting with upgrades and no they dont help kerrigan. I will extend this to Mutalisks/Roaches/Infestors. If path is cleared of missilturrets, it should be easy enough to reinforce. ofcourse, how they are used is the real question. Roaches and Infestors have great synergy. Roaches replenish life, and Infestors need to consume. Infestors and steal science vessles as well as ordinary units, helping keep kerrigan alive. Maybe with this strategy it would be worthwhile taking odin(2500hp) out instead of mengsk(5000hp), to later unburrow and face mengsk. Infested units or even just the infestor roach will very likely trigger drop pods alone, but this may not be a problem if we can convert a bunch quickly.

SS:
@Gorash, Yes this would be extremely hard if not impossible to pull off with less health and energy. But only at the one specific place where we ninja through kill two turrets and burrow. I am sure we can find a nice midstop safezone after killing only one turret. @wfp taking out units I dont think is necessary, only an adjustment for caution and you are right really only belongs in an ss run. but taking out units=> more hp to spare for spontaneous vessle escapes.

Leaping Strike VS Kinetic Blast:
@wfp yes it is faster dps. I only feel its downsides are too drastical. It is only melee so vessles would be killed by hand or with infestor. shorter range, so we need to be in range of Odin, he kills us very easily, even if we only unburrow to mend he will kill us faster.

JonBlom

2013-04-29 02:04:14 pm

Nice one jolin. I did some testing and had some thoughts.
The starport right in front of the hiding place seems to start building a science vessel as soon as one is killed. Might be worth considering taking out the techlab thingie to reduce the number of them. However I do believe some come flying from somewhere else and it does take two blasts to take it out. So, maybe not.

It seems like a lot of work to clear a way for infestors or roaches. And they'd die rather quickly it seems even if you get them in place. Neuraling a science vessel might have a little benefit for healing but it might just draw more stuff over. Sort of negating the effect. On top of that the Odin can't be neuraled. Of course I'm just speculating here but it just doesn't seem worth it to try and get an infestor in place.

Anyway, great work.

NitroxKnight

Edit history:

NitroxKnight: 2013-04-29 04:06:09 pm

2013-04-29 02:37:45 pm

I'm working on old soldiers and have now a time of 11:15 whit roashes
and on the same level whit ninja karrigan 11:30 (it's really hard because of the SCV that repair the fottres)

Olso my time on The Reckoning is 6:33. will upload if under 6:30.

Edit: Even better a 5:58

I tried to kill the techlab on the starport but the number of science vessels was always 5 to 6. I don't think it matters.

jolin012

2013-04-29 04:34:25 pm

Nice one nitroxknight! That was pretty much spotless. which is a hard thing when it relies on risking it at low health when vessles could be lurking about. Well done, there should be no more drastical (>30s) improvements until infestors, mutas, or something else turns out to work in favor.

NitroxKnight

2013-04-29 05:27:06 pm

On the mision Old Soldiers I'm getting some better time now.
Whit the use of INPALERS I got 8:20. If i get it down 7:45 I will upload but for now lets sleep.

wfp

2013-04-29 06:52:46 pm

yeah, it definitely seems like there should be some way to get forces to the gate. if you fly around the west and north edge of the map there's next to no anti-air for mutas. for ss i wonder if not racing past one of the turrets makes it viable? in general the computer's gonna be super cheap about science vessels so there isn't much that could be done.

Raelcun

Edit history:

Raelcun: 2013-04-29 07:20:59 pm

Raelcun: 2013-04-29 07:18:32 pm

Raelcun: 2013-04-29 07:17:16 pm

2013-04-29 07:13:33 pm

We require more minerals

Okay since Dime asked about SS I'm going to infodump what I've been thinking about.

Currently the ideal route is to go to Char first

Char
Domination
-straight forward but I think we need to get the 2 bonus levels
-With going to Char first and no upgrades the first attack on the base is risky and doesn't always work. Building a few drones early and making 5-6 queens for the final assault is enough to deal with the Mutalisks and allow for the zerglings to do more damage.
Fire in The Sky
-2 levels are readily available, third would require suiciding Kerrigan at the end. Need to experiment with it but believe that having 5 total bonus levels will help a lot with Old Soldier.
Old Soldier
-This is the MAJOR problem, only Aberation Bashers, Queens, Zerglings and Banelings are available
-Getting bonus kerrigan levels allows for unlocking zergling reconstitution or Overlord bonus which makes this mission much more doable in a speedrun with no powerful units available. Pretty sure it saves more time than the extra levels wastes. Needs testing
-Kerrigan levels are a complete waste of time

(5 bonus levels, 5 levels from rewards, +10 levels)

Zerus
Waking the Ancient
-Needs testing, Bashers and Queens can kill this mission pretty quickly, but the quillboars are kitable a certain amount. If you can kite them far enough away from their spawn point then the enemy forces sent to kill you won't aggro. They get sent to where the quillboar spawns. Need to play around with optimizing and using this to our advantage.
-Can easily get 2 kerrigan levels without wasting time, third is up for debate
The Crucible
-A few extra Swarm Hosts are all that are needed, beyond that Bashers and Queens work.
-Doesn't take many units to sneak through the battle lines to kill the ultralisk for research, should be perfectly viable.
-Use locusts when scared, last two waves get used on cooldown. The final wave can have locusts spawned twice
Supreme
-Straight forward, ninja kerrigan rules
-Get three levels. First one you pass by, next in the top left, and third by the bunch of eggs.

(6 kerrigan bonus levels, 15 reward levels. 31 Kerrigan levels. Double drones available from after Harvest of Screams)

Kaldir
Harvest of Screams
-Killable with just zerglings and no upgrades in 2 flash freezes.
-Both levels are accessible without losing time.
Shoot the Messenger
-Ninja Kerrigan is possible, spawn banelings is available with current Kerrigan levels
-Producing a few units with double drones makes getting the closest Kerrigan level available.
Enemy Within
-Straight forward, use evolved banelings for max effect.
-Bonus level is a freebie

(4 bonus levels, 5 reward levels, 40 Kerrigan levels.)

Variation Point: Doing Skygerr Station allows for having Infestors available in Conviction, but no Furor in Infested. Right now choosing Skygerr first, ninja Kerrigan strats should still kill fast enough that having Infestors available is faster.

Skygerr Station
Infested
-Ninja Kerrigan, multiple variants available. Medivac version probably more SS safe. Leap Strike is faster.
-Bonus levels are technically available but not really within reason
Hand of Darkness
-Ninja Kerrigan, yet again
-Get both levels.
Phantoms of the Void
-Roaches and queens destroy this level, Alexei is the main limitation
-Get one bonus level.

(3 bonus levels, 4 reward levels, 47 Kerrigan Levels)

Dominion Space
With Friends Like These
-IL Strats
Conviction
-Use infestors to neural powerful units (tanks, thors etc)
-Get both bonus levels, second one actually speeds things up if you get it as opposed to skipping

(2 bonus levels, 9 reward levels, 56 Kerrigan Levels, Need 4 more from earlier to use Apocalypse, Drop Pods, Leviathan. Only really necessary in one of the levels though. Don't think the detours would save enough time to make up for them.)

Final Missions
Planet Fall
-Build up several spine crawlers and 2 spores at each drop pod. 5-6 spines by themselves buy enough time to react to anything even while continuing to move forward with the majority of army to clear the path.
-Time mission, no levels
Death From Above
-IL Strat, no Apocalypse, so possibly bring a few mutas with. Needs testing
Reckoning
-Ninja Kerrigan, Furor, Mend, Shift, Kinetic Blast
-Once the way to the gate is clear need to learn the timings of the Science vessels and save Kinetic Blasts.

Evolutions:
Zergling Evolution: yes
-Currently using Raptorlings for the damage bonus and movespeed bonus. This allows for adrenal glands to be upgraded and have zerglings that do massive amounts of damage.
-Switch to Metabolic Boost for Harvest of Screams

Baneling Evolution: yes
-Splitterlings do more damage, mostly going to be using banelings with spawn banelings so use that just for the damage

Roach Evolution: maybe
-Would help with Phantoms of the void. Vile Roaches are extremely powerful and let you kill the protoss with less units and split up forces earlier. Definitely safer for SS, but not sure if it actually saves time or if it's about even
-It's possible Vile Roaches would allow for all bonus levels on Phantoms of the Void and mean only one extra level is needed for last tier of abilities. Needs investigating.

Everything else: No

Okay since Dime asked about SS I'm going to infodump what I've been thinking about.

Currently the ideal route is to go to Char first

[u]Char[/u]
[b]Domination[/b] 
-straight forward but I think we need to get the 2 bonus levels
-With going to Char first and no upgrades the first attack on the base is risky and doesn't always work. Building a few drones early and making 5-6 queens for the final assault is enough to deal with the Mutalisks and allow for the zerglings to do more damage.
[b]Fire in The Sky[/b]
-2 levels are readily available, third would require suiciding Kerrigan at the end. Need to experiment with it but believe that having 5 total bonus levels will help a lot with Old Soldier.
[b]Old Soldier[/b]
-This is the MAJOR problem, only Aberation Bashers, Queens, Zerglings and Banelings are available
-Getting bonus kerrigan levels allows for unlocking zergling reconstitution or Overlord bonus which makes this mission much more doable in a speedrun with no powerful units available. Pretty sure it saves more time than the extra levels wastes. Needs testing
-Kerrigan levels are a complete waste of time

(5 bonus levels, 5 levels from rewards, +10 levels)

[u]Zerus[/u]
[b]Waking the Ancient[/b]
-Needs testing, Bashers and Queens can kill this mission pretty quickly, but the quillboars are kitable a certain amount. If you can kite them far enough away from their spawn point then the enemy forces sent to kill you won't aggro. They get sent to where the quillboar spawns. Need to play around with optimizing and using this to our advantage.
-Can easily get 2 kerrigan levels without wasting time, third is up for debate
[b]The Crucible[/b]
-A few extra Swarm Hosts are all that are needed, beyond that Bashers and Queens work.
-Doesn't take many units to sneak through the battle lines to kill the ultralisk for research, should be perfectly viable.
-Use locusts when scared, last two waves get used on cooldown. The final wave can have locusts spawned twice
[b]Supreme[/b]
-Straight forward, ninja kerrigan rules
-Get three levels. First one you pass by, next in the top left, and third by the bunch of eggs.

(6 kerrigan bonus levels, 15 reward levels. 31 Kerrigan levels. Double drones available from after Harvest of Screams)

[u]Kaldir[/u]
[b]Harvest of Screams[/b]
-Killable with just zerglings and no upgrades in 2 flash freezes.
-Both levels are accessible without losing time.
[b]Shoot the Messenger[/b]
-Ninja Kerrigan is possible, spawn banelings is available with current Kerrigan levels
-Producing a few units with double drones makes getting the closest Kerrigan level available.
[b]Enemy Within[/b]
-Straight forward, use evolved banelings for max effect.
-Bonus level is a freebie

(4 bonus levels, 5 reward levels, 40 Kerrigan levels.)

Variation Point: Doing Skygerr Station allows for having Infestors available in Conviction, but no Furor in Infested. Right now choosing Skygerr first, ninja Kerrigan strats should still kill fast enough that having Infestors available is faster.

[u]Skygerr Station[/u]
[b]Infested[/b]
-Ninja Kerrigan, multiple variants available. Medivac version probably more SS safe. Leap Strike is faster.
-Bonus levels are technically available but not really within reason
[b]Hand of Darkness[/b]
-Ninja Kerrigan, yet again
-Get both levels.
[b]Phantoms of the Void[/b]
-Roaches and queens destroy this level, Alexei is the main limitation
-Get one bonus level.

(3 bonus levels, 4 reward levels, 47 Kerrigan Levels)

[u]Dominion Space[/u]
[b]With Friends Like These[/b]
-IL Strats
[b]Conviction[/b]
-Use infestors to neural powerful units (tanks, thors etc)
-Get both bonus levels, second one actually speeds things up if you get it as opposed to skipping

(2 bonus levels, 9 reward levels, 56 Kerrigan Levels, Need 4 more from earlier to use Apocalypse, Drop Pods, Leviathan. Only really necessary in one of the levels though. Don't think the detours would save enough time to make up for them.)

[u]Final Missions[/u]
[b]Planet Fall[/b]
-Build up several spine crawlers and 2 spores at each drop pod. 5-6 spines by themselves buy enough time to react to anything even while continuing to move forward with the majority of army to clear the path.
-Time mission, no levels
[b]Death From Above[/b]
-IL Strat, no Apocalypse, so possibly bring a few mutas with. Needs testing
[b]Reckoning[/b]
-Ninja Kerrigan, Furor, Mend, Shift, Kinetic Blast
-Once the way to the gate is clear need to learn the timings of the Science vessels and save Kinetic Blasts.

[u]Evolutions:[/u]
[b]Zergling Evolution: yes[/b]
-Currently using Raptorlings for the damage bonus and movespeed bonus. This allows for adrenal glands to be upgraded and have zerglings that do massive amounts of damage.
-Switch to Metabolic Boost for Harvest of Screams

[b]Baneling Evolution: yes[/b]
-Splitterlings do more damage, mostly going to be using banelings with spawn banelings so use that just for the damage

[b]Roach Evolution: maybe[/b]
-Would help with Phantoms of the void. Vile Roaches  are extremely powerful and let you kill the protoss with less units and split up forces earlier. Definitely safer for SS, but not sure if it actually saves time or if it's about even
-It's possible Vile Roaches would allow for all bonus levels on Phantoms of the Void and mean only one extra level is needed for last tier of abilities. Needs investigating.

[b]Everything else: No[/b]

Dime

2013-04-29 07:32:48 pm

Really appreciate the runthrough Raelcun, going to do my own routes and then come back to this information + IL's afterwards and try and get the best of both worlds.

Can 6-8 mutas realistically do anything on the reckoning? looking at the resources in the IL's seems like a handful of mutas could be brought out but unsure if they pull in science vessels or just get blown up at Mengsk's gate.

Raelcun

2013-04-29 07:35:00 pm

We require more minerals

It might be helpful just for getting the Science vessels away, but flying the mutas there will take a good amount of damage. There are a few turrets you can't avoid and a group of vikings. Plus with the Odin being there that early, they're going to get taken out pretty fast.

It's possible to use them to distract the Odin so Kerrigan can stay on the gate, but that would require testing and probably need a few more than 6-8 mutas.

Asteron

2013-04-29 09:14:42 pm

Quote from Raelcun:

Plus with the Odin being there that early, they're going to get taken out pretty fast.

If I remember right the Odin can't shoot air.

wfp

2013-04-29 10:05:19 pm

i think space should be done before skygierr the extra attack and health boosts from levelling are probably going to be very welcome on infested and hand of darkness whereas i can't see them making a difference on conviction plus you get ability efficiency for skygierr which is a pretty obvious time saver. i also think banelings and beyond aren't worth it, but we'll need to look at how much banelings are used and if having slightly better ones really adds up to 3-4 minutes gained (i'm thinking not... same is technically true with zerglings, but i do think they're worth it).

the odin can shoot air. its air weapons are just awful and it doesn't do splash damage like normal thors.

NitroxKnight

Edit history:

NitroxKnight: 2013-04-30 04:55:34 am

NitroxKnight: 2013-04-30 04:55:19 am

NitroxKnight: 2013-04-30 04:54:56 am

NitroxKnight: 2013-04-30 04:52:56 am

2013-04-30 04:47:18 am

Here is my best SS run of Old Soldiers:

I got a better one of 7:08 http://i.imgur.com/4RCsn0B.jpg but that was segmented.

something interesting is that the fortress is a detector but the detonation range is way smaller then how far it can shoot.
Inpailer have just a little more range then the detection on the fortress. The window for that is small. That's why I lost one inpailer (just a little bit to close).

JonBlom

2013-04-30 04:12:14 pm

To be more SS safe on Infested I think using mend instead of spawn banelings should be enough. Going on the left side with mend isn't all that difficult and you save at least a minute or a minute and a half compared to medivacs.

wfp

2013-04-30 06:37:34 pm

nice nitrox. i now wonder if you drop pod on the reckoning do you get hydras you could make into impalers? might save a few seconds.

Raelcun

2013-05-01 02:48:11 am

We require more minerals

Would they do enough damage to offset the morphing time?

Garryl

2013-05-01 06:27:28 am

Can they even morph at all? I thought Drop Pod gave primal zerg that weren't affected by upgrades and mutations.

NitroxKnight

2013-05-01 03:38:20 pm

I have been working on Phantoms of the Void. It is a really hard mission to do perfect. Whit the macro at base, the abilities on Sucof?, not getting supply blocked and not losing any units (if any of these goes wrong i will not be in time to intersect a attack on my base and it will take again one minute). I think I'll get the mission down to a time of 10-12 minutes but is is really hard to do.
My tactic for now is to make inpailer-hydra. 5 inpailers kill a hybrid whit-in 10 seconds and the hydra's have a really good boost where they shoot really fast.