Speedrun Leaderboards Discussion Topic (SRL)

Svenne

2013-08-14 08:28:36 am

Smörgåsbord

So why bring it up, post the whole thing so people can make their own judgement. Sorry, not gonna write more.

garik16

2013-08-14 08:32:13 am

Quote from xcd:

I did, twice (it's in my mIRC logs). Still no justification, sorry.

Okay dude, two things.
1. This was being taken out of this thread and there's no reason to bring it up again.
2. It's a complete non-sequitor that has nothing to do with being in an SDA marathon. People can get angry at times. This doesn't disqualify them from SDA or SRL. It has nothing to do with this.

The only reason to bring this up was to make an ad hom attack, which is stupid. Cut it out.

----------------------
To get back on topic, I do feel people should be able to opt out of the leaderboards. I get what the goal of getting complete leaderboards is going for - and hell, it'd be extremely awkward if not damaging if a WR holder decided to opt out. That would suck. And I don't think there's any legal problem with declining opt outs - as noted, you have the legal right to do this.

That said, people post videos online, or stream online, for various reasons, and some may not be comfortable having their videos linked in such a manner. I don't think it's really asking much for you to allow people to opt-out if they feel strongly, because the alternative you're giving them - taking the videos off the net altogether - is bad for everyone.

[quote="xcd"]I did, twice (it's in my mIRC logs). Still no justification, sorry. [/quote]

Okay dude, two things.
1.  This was being taken out of this thread and there's no reason to bring it up again.
2.  It's a complete non-sequitor that has nothing to do with being in an SDA marathon.  People can get angry at times.  This doesn't disqualify them from SDA or SRL.  It has nothing to do with this.

The only reason to bring this up was to make an ad hom attack, which is stupid.  Cut it out.

----------------------
To get back on topic, I do feel people should be able to opt out of the leaderboards.  I get what the goal of getting complete leaderboards is going for - and hell, it'd be extremely awkward if not damaging if a WR holder decided to opt out.   That would suck.  And I don't think there's any legal problem with declining opt outs - as noted, you have the legal right to do this.

That said, people post videos online, or stream online, for various reasons, and some may not be comfortable having their videos linked in such a manner.  I don't think it's really asking much for you to allow people to opt-out if they feel strongly, because the alternative you're giving them - taking the videos off the net altogether - is bad for everyone.

Dime

2013-08-14 08:58:46 am

On the other hand, if this was done it likely does explain some of the trolling on the youtube videos of Presjpolk. Im not an angel, I would probably troll any of you if you made legit threats to me but that type of thing happened quite often in sc2 and dota. People get mad when they lose to collosus death pushes! Many people who had used death threats ended up being great people in RL when I met them. But still it's something serious and should never be said it's just wrong no matter what was happening in the channel at the time.

So the comments about being removed from a marathon are unwarranted in my opinion, thats not your decision and not really relevant to anything aside from potentially some of the trolling on Presjpolk's vids.

ktwo

2013-08-14 09:01:31 am

This thread started out as friendly reaching out for help and promoting a common project that the whole "community" should support. Discussion was said to be encouraged and new ideas considered. Without even leaving the first page, I already find a "we do what we want because it's legal, so you can't stop us", instead of respecting the wishes of a few fellow peers from within the community. Really? But it's all for the greater good, huh? Well, at least it's nice that you show your true colors now and don't wait until everything is implemented and done...

I can come up with a number of reasons why someone would not want to be listed on a leaderboard and this one is no exception. I don't understand why someone would need to explain a personal decision like that though (and with the mentality shown so far, why bother?). But yeah, by all means, wave around those legal rights a bit more if that's what it takes to make you guys justify your actions and sleep well at night.

garik16

2013-08-14 09:05:29 am

Quote from ktwo:

This thread started out as friendly reaching out for help and promoting a common project that the whole "community" should support. Discussion was said to be encouraged and new ideas considered. Without even leaving the first page, I already find a "we do what we want because it's legal, so you can't stop us", instead of respecting the wishes of a few fellow peers from within the community. Really? But it's all for the greater good, huh? Well, at least it's nice that you show your true colors now and don't wait until everything is implemented and done...

I can come up with a number of reasons why someone would not want to be listed on a leaderboard and this one is no exception. I don't understand why someone would need to explain a personal decision like that though (and with the mentality shown so far, why bother?). But yeah, by all means, wave around those legal rights a bit more if that's what it takes to make you guys justify your actions and sleep well at night.

Quote from Dime:

On the other hand, if this was done it likely does explain some of the trolling on the youtube videos of Presjpolk. Im not an angel, I would probably troll any of you if you made legit threats to me but that type of thing happened quite often in sc2 and dota. People get mad when they lose to collosus death pushes! Many people who had used death threats ended up being great people in RL when I met them. But still it's something serious and should never be said it's just wrong no matter what was happening in the channel at the time.

So the comments about being removed from a marathon are unwarranted in my opinion, thats not your decision and not really relevant to anything aside from potentially some of the trolling on Presjpolk's vids.

Okay People seriously. Even though I agree with ktwo (see above), the tone in this thread really needs to chill out. No one is trying to purposely hurt others through the leaderboards, even if there is a disagreement over whether the lack of opt-out does that or not.

[quote="ktwo"]This thread started out as friendly reaching out for help and promoting a common project that the whole "community" should support. Discussion was said to be encouraged and new ideas considered. Without even leaving the first page, I already find a "we do what we want because it's legal, so you can't stop us", instead of respecting the wishes of a few fellow peers from within the community. Really? But it's all for the greater good, huh? Well, at least it's nice that you show your true colors now and don't wait until everything is implemented and done...

I can come up with a number of reasons why someone would not want to be listed on a leaderboard and this one is no exception. I don't understand why someone would need to explain a personal decision like that though (and with the mentality shown so far, why bother?). But yeah, by all means, wave around those legal rights a bit more if that's what it takes to make you guys justify your actions and sleep well at night.[/quote]
[quote="Dime"]On the other hand, if this was done it likely does explain some of the trolling on the youtube videos of Presjpolk. Im not an angel, I would probably troll any of you if you made legit threats to me but that type of thing happened quite often in sc2 and dota. People get mad when they lose to collosus death pushes! Many people who had used death threats ended up being great people in RL when I met them. But still it's something serious and should never be said it's just wrong no matter what was happening in the channel at the time.

So the comments about being removed from a marathon are unwarranted in my opinion, thats not your decision and not really relevant to anything aside from potentially some of the trolling on Presjpolk's vids.[/quote]

Okay People seriously.  Even though I agree with ktwo (see above), the tone in this thread really needs to chill out.  No one is trying to purposely hurt others through the leaderboards, even if there is a disagreement over whether the lack of opt-out does that or not.

AdamAK

2013-08-14 09:23:05 am

Totally rad

Quote from ktwo:

I can come up with a number of reasons why someone would not want to be listed on a leaderboard and this one is no exception.

I would like to hear these. Thus far, I haven't seen any reasons other than some odd expectation of en masse harassment or "I don't want it because I don't want it" (which, in all fairness, isn't much of a reason).

sinister1

Edit history:

sinister1: 2013-08-14 09:23:44 am

2013-08-14 09:23:12 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Just wanted to say that I am very excited for leaderboards and admire the amount of work you guys have put into this project. I read the Google doc and you have really well thought out ideas/plans and I am glad you opened it up for further discussion here in the forums in addition to IRC.

With regards to the opt out thing I agree with most of what has been said. I think that the folks who want to opt out will consist of an extremely small minority of whom will experience only minor negative outcomes (mostly self perceived) by having their time posted. The idea of opting out of SRL leaderboards but still having your run publicly available on the internet is like telling the phone company "I want to opt out of the phone book, but only in certain neighborhoods."

@ktwo: Please share the "number of good reasons" instead of just mentioning it. It would helpful to support your argument.

And yes, this thread does need to stay on topic. If you have disagreements about the leaderboard state them in an appropriate, constructive, and mature way.

Just wanted to say that I am very excited for leaderboards and admire the amount of work you guys have put into this project. I read the Google doc and you have really well thought out ideas/plans and I am glad you opened it up for further discussion here in the forums in addition to IRC.

With regards to the opt out thing I agree with most of what has been said. I think that the folks who want to opt out will consist of an extremely small minority of whom will experience only minor negative outcomes (mostly self perceived) by having their time posted. The idea of opting out of SRL leaderboards but still having your run publicly available on the internet is like telling the phone company "I want to opt out of the phone book, but only in certain neighborhoods."

@ktwo: Please share the "number of good reasons" instead of just mentioning it. It would helpful to support your argument.

And yes, this thread does need to stay on topic. If you have disagreements about the leaderboard state them in an appropriate, constructive, and mature way.

Flip

2013-08-14 09:26:01 am

1-Up!

Is there a fear among those responsible for creating the Leaderboards that "if opting out is an option, then lots of people will do it and the overall quality of the Leaderboard will suffer for it" ?

I just think that 99.9% of everybody with an opportunity to be on the leaderboard (especially the top) will appreciate the service you're doing them (exposure, access to other times besides their own, etc) and won't opt out. Now maybe you guys just don't want to leave this to chance and I understand that too. I just think that allowing an opt-out to people who are vehemently opposed like presjpolk won't have much of a sizeable impact on the quality of the Leaderboards. Game communities are going to know of the existence of a run if it's the WR and the runner opted out. Along the same lines, people who aren't in that particular game's community aren't harmed at all by the WR not being on the leaderboards, because they're just getting into the game. If they get really good it follows to think that they'll become part of that game's community and then by default they'll know about the missing WR run. Forbidding any opt-outs seems like a heavy handed gesture to protect against an extreme edge case.

Personally, I'm pumped for the leaderboards. This has all just got me thinking about the consequences of opting out so I figured I'd share.

Is there a fear among those responsible for creating the Leaderboards that "if opting out is an option, then lots of people will do it and the overall quality of the Leaderboard will suffer for it"  ?

I just think that 99.9% of everybody with an opportunity to be on the leaderboard (especially the top) will appreciate the service you're doing them (exposure, access to other times besides their own, etc) and won't opt out. Now maybe you guys just don't want to leave this to chance and I understand that too. I just think that allowing an opt-out to people who are vehemently opposed like presjpolk won't have much of a sizeable impact on the quality of the Leaderboards. Game communities are going to know of the existence of a run if it's the WR and the runner opted out. Along the same lines, people who aren't in that particular game's community aren't harmed at all by the WR not being on the leaderboards, because they're just getting into the game. If they get really good it follows to think that they'll become part of that game's community and then by default they'll know about the missing WR run. Forbidding any opt-outs seems like a heavy handed gesture to protect against an extreme edge case.

Personally, I'm pumped for the leaderboards. This has all just got me thinking about the consequences of opting out so I figured I'd share.

garik16

2013-08-14 09:27:46 am

Quote from sinister1:

Just wanted to say that I am very excited for leaderboards and admire the amount of work you guys have put into this project. I read the Google doc and you have really well thought out ideas/plans and I am glad you opened it up for further discussion here in the forums in addition to IRC.

With regards to the opt out thing I agree with most of what has been said. I think that the folks who want to opt out will consist of an extremely small minority of whom will experience only minor negative outcomes (mostly self perceived) by having their time posted. The idea of opting out of SRL leaderboards but still having your run publicly available on the internet is like telling the phone company "I want to opt out of the phone book, but only in certain neighborhoods."

@ktwo: Please share the "number of good reasons" instead of just mentioning it. It would helpful to support your argument.

And yes, this thread does need to stay on topic. If you have disagreements about the leaderboard state them in an appropriate, constructive, and mature way.

Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason? I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable. Why should they need a reason we can understand?

Flip sums it up best for me. Again, it's one thing to require opt-in - I understand why you'd not want that as it'd result in non-functional leaderboards. But opt-out simply allows the extremes - those who have strong views - to still be comfortable. And if those are WRs, people will know anyhow.

[quote="sinister1"]Just wanted to say that I am very excited for leaderboards and admire the amount of work you guys have put into this project. I read the Google doc and you have really well thought out ideas/plans and I am glad you opened it up for further discussion here in the forums in addition to IRC.

With regards to the opt out thing I agree with most of what has been said. I think that the folks who want to opt out will consist of an extremely small minority of whom will experience only minor negative outcomes (mostly self perceived) by having their time posted. The idea of opting out of SRL leaderboards but still having your run publicly available on the internet is like telling the phone company "I want to opt out of the phone book, but only in certain neighborhoods."

@ktwo: Please share the "number of good reasons" instead of just mentioning it. It would helpful to support your argument.

And yes, this thread does need to stay on topic. If you have disagreements about the leaderboard state them in an appropriate, constructive, and mature way. [/quote]

Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason?  I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.  Why should they need a reason we can understand?

Flip sums it up best for me.  Again, it's one thing to require opt-in - I understand why you'd not want that as it'd result in non-functional leaderboards.  But opt-out simply allows the extremes - those who have strong views - to still be comfortable.  And if those are WRs, people will know anyhow.

AdamAK

2013-08-14 09:31:00 am

Totally rad

Quote from garik16:

Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason? I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?

garik16

2013-08-14 09:35:47 am

Quote from AdamAK:

Quote from garik16:

Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason? I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?

Adam, the reasons do not matter. The reason people opt-out would be because they don't want to be on the leaderboard. Who are you to judge their reasons for this? What if they keep old videos up out of habit, but don't care to have them re-publicized and would take them down otherwise? What if they share the videos for friends?

Again, people keep freaking diaries on the internet, and despite these things being open for everyone to view, in more than a few cases I've seen those people upset when suddenly a posting becomes publicized. That's what you're doing.

The reason shouldn't matter and opting out would not cause any problems. I don't see the issue here - why irritate some people for basically no benefit while the option of annoying no one would be completely doable?

[quote="AdamAK"][quote="garik16"]
Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason?  I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.[/quote]

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?[/quote]

Adam, the reasons do not matter.  The reason people opt-out would be because they don't want to be on the leaderboard.  Who are you to judge their reasons for this?  What if they keep old videos up out of habit, but don't care to have them re-publicized and would take them down otherwise?  What if they share the videos for friends?

Again, people keep freaking diaries on the internet, and despite these things being open for everyone to view, in more than a few cases I've seen those people upset when suddenly a posting becomes publicized.  That's what you're doing.

The reason shouldn't matter and opting out would not cause any problems.  I don't see the issue here - why irritate some people for basically no benefit while the option of annoying no one would be completely doable?

ShadowDraft

Edit history:

ShadowDraft: 2013-08-14 09:40:22 am

2013-08-14 09:39:50 am

Get over here!

Quote from garik16:

Quote from AdamAK:

Quote from garik16:

Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason? I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?

Adam, the reasons do not matter. The reason people opt-out would be because they don't want to be on the leaderboard. Who are you to judge their reasons for this? What if they keep old videos up out of habit, but don't care to have them re-publicized and would take them down otherwise? What if they share the videos for friends?

Again, people keep freaking diaries on the internet, and despite these things being open for everyone to view, in more than a few cases I've seen those people upset when suddenly a posting becomes publicized. That's what you're doing.

The reason shouldn't matter and opting out would not cause any problems. I don't see the issue here - why irritate some people for basically no benefit while the option of annoying no one would be completely doable?

Youtube has the option to unlist videos. Same goes to Twitch I believe with the hiding function. This discussion is going nowhere unless you post real reasons because there are already ways to opt-out without taking your videos from Youtube/Twitch. If you submit a run to SDA though it's a hole other story. Those runs are publicly available and it was your own decision to do so. The purpose for leaderboards is simply to state the fastest time and not to hurt anyone by doing so.

[quote="garik16"][quote="AdamAK"][quote="garik16"]
Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason?  I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.[/quote]

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?[/quote]

Adam, the reasons do not matter.  The reason people opt-out would be because they don't want to be on the leaderboard.  Who are you to judge their reasons for this?  What if they keep old videos up out of habit, but don't care to have them re-publicized and would take them down otherwise?  What if they share the videos for friends?

Again, people keep freaking diaries on the internet, and despite these things being open for everyone to view, in more than a few cases I've seen those people upset when suddenly a posting becomes publicized.  That's what you're doing.

The reason shouldn't matter and opting out would not cause any problems.  I don't see the issue here - why irritate some people for basically no benefit while the option of annoying no one would be completely doable?  
[/quote]

Youtube has the option to unlist videos. Same goes to Twitch I believe with the hiding function. This discussion is going nowhere unless you post real reasons because there are already ways to opt-out without taking your videos from Youtube/Twitch. If you submit a run to SDA though it's a hole other story. Those runs are publicly available and it was your own decision to do so. The purpose for leaderboards is simply to state the fastest time and not to hurt anyone by doing so.

AdamAK

2013-08-14 09:41:17 am

Totally rad

Until you show me an actual valid reason for not wanting to be on the leaderboards, it's very difficult to take your point of view seriously.

The fact that you say "the reasons do not matter" only implies that (1) you do not have any reasons to list and/or (2) you are unwilling to listen to counterarguments and have a valid discussion in the first place.

Prove me wrong.

CosmoWright

Edit history:

CosmoWright: 2013-08-14 09:51:20 am

CosmoWright: 2013-08-14 09:43:49 am

2013-08-14 09:43:15 am

Quote from Flip:

Game communities are going to know of the existence of a run if it's the WR and the runner opted out.

So you're saying that via irc discussion, forums, it being mentioned on streams, people talking about it via twitter/mumble, or somebody making a google doc or pastebin about it, some people will be knowledgeable about the existence of the run.

In that case, why would you not put it on the leaderboard as well? This way you have a consistent place to find this information instead of it being fragmented. If I as a casual viewer interested in speedruns look at the leaderboard, I want to be confident about their accuracy. I shouldn't have to scour youtube, sda, nicovideo, twitch, and google for hours. I especially shouldn't have to be in some secret club circlejerk to be able to be made aware of accurate information.

garik16

2013-08-14 09:47:06 am

Quote from ShadowDraft:

Quote from garik16:

Quote from AdamAK:

Quote from garik16:

Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason? I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?

Adam, the reasons do not matter. The reason people opt-out would be because they don't want to be on the leaderboard. Who are you to judge their reasons for this? What if they keep old videos up out of habit, but don't care to have them re-publicized and would take them down otherwise? What if they share the videos for friends?

Again, people keep freaking diaries on the internet, and despite these things being open for everyone to view, in more than a few cases I've seen those people upset when suddenly a posting becomes publicized. That's what you're doing.

The reason shouldn't matter and opting out would not cause any problems. I don't see the issue here - why irritate some people for basically no benefit while the option of annoying no one would be completely doable?

Youtube has the option to unlist videos. Same goes to Twitch I believe with the hiding function. This discussion is going nowhere unless you post real reasons because there are already ways to opt-out without taking your videos from Youtube/Twitch. If you submit a run to SDA though it's a hole other story. Those runs are publicly available and it was your own decision to do so. The purpose for leaderboards is simply to state the fastest time and not to hurt anyone by doing so.

Again, this is the reason not to list them. If someone wants to post something onto youtube but not be publicized, the leaderboards essentially force them to take something off youtube, preventing them from getting whatever benefits they got out of that in the first place.

@Adam as well: Listen, I'm not one of these people who would care. But tell me, what happens when someone comes up to you with a reason? What will be your response? Are you really going to say to them: "Sorry I don't care" or "Sorry, that reason just doesn't resonate with me?"

Just let people opt-out. It solves all the problems with none of the fuss.

@Cosmo - this is the problem with the concept of World Records more than anything - if someone has a certain time but never posts it on the internet, they kind of have the WR - you just don't know it. So you don't care about it. You care about "Fastest Known Times."

Allowing an opt-out provision doesn't change this - the goal should still be to be at the top of the leaderboard, and if one guy beats that and then doesn't want his video listed, people should STILL BE TRYING TO BEAT THE GUY ON TOP OF THE LEADERBOARD.

I don't get how a minor change that causes no harm to your project (and it's unlikely to happen with WR holders anyhow) is an issue when not doing that change could annoy others.

[quote="ShadowDraft"][quote="garik16"][quote="AdamAK"][quote="garik16"]
Sin, Adam, does it matter the reason?  I don't think there are actual negative outcomes - trolling for instance - of the leaderboards, but I can see people who have stuff on the internet NOT wanting attention called to it and being uncomfortable.[/quote]

Yes, the reasons certainly matter. Also, if you have speedruns posted on the internet or even stream them and have accessible VODs, then how on earth can you still be uncomfortable with people actually watching these speedruns? Why would you stream them or post them on SDA in the first place, if public viewing makes you uncomfortable?[/quote]

Adam, the reasons do not matter.  The reason people opt-out would be because they don't want to be on the leaderboard.  Who are you to judge their reasons for this?  What if they keep old videos up out of habit, but don't care to have them re-publicized and would take them down otherwise?  What if they share the videos for friends?

Again, people keep freaking diaries on the internet, and despite these things being open for everyone to view, in more than a few cases I've seen those people upset when suddenly a posting becomes publicized.  That's what you're doing.

The reason shouldn't matter and opting out would not cause any problems.  I don't see the issue here - why irritate some people for basically no benefit while the option of annoying no one would be completely doable?  
[/quote]

Youtube has the option to unlist videos. Same goes to Twitch I believe with the hiding function. This discussion is going nowhere unless you post real reasons because there are already ways to opt-out without taking your videos from Youtube/Twitch. If you submit a run to SDA though it's a hole other story. Those runs are publicly available and it was your own decision to do so. The purpose for leaderboards is simply to state the fastest time and not to hurt anyone by doing so.[/quote]

Again, this is the reason not to list them.  If someone wants to post something onto youtube but not be publicized, the leaderboards essentially force them to take something off youtube, preventing them from getting whatever benefits they got out of that in the first place.

@Adam as well: Listen, I'm not one of these people who would care.  But tell me, what happens when someone comes up to you with a reason?  What will be your response?  Are you really going to say to them: "Sorry I don't care" or "Sorry, that reason just doesn't resonate with me?"

Just let people opt-out.  It solves all the problems with none of the fuss.

@Cosmo - this is the problem with the concept of World Records more than anything - if someone has a certain time but never posts it on the internet, they kind of have the WR - you just don't know it.  So you don't care about it.  You care about "Fastest Known Times."

Allowing an opt-out provision doesn't change this - the goal should still be to be at the top of the leaderboard, and if one guy beats that and then doesn't want his video listed, people should STILL BE TRYING TO BEAT THE GUY ON TOP OF THE LEADERBOARD.

I don't get how a minor change that causes no harm to your project (and it's unlikely to happen with WR holders anyhow) is an issue when not doing that change could annoy others.

AdamAK

2013-08-14 09:50:37 am

Totally rad

Quote from garik16:

snip

You've started making assumptions about me rather than listing actual reasons. I want to hear you out to see if I can understand your point of view. Ad hominems are not conducive to my understanding.

TheMG2

2013-08-14 09:53:20 am

I think regardless of whether people have a "legitimate" reason for opting out or not, that the people who do want to opt out have already made up their minds. A lack of an option to opt out will probably cause people who have made up their minds to pull videos. Is that something that we should be looking to avoid, or is it a casualty of war? I mean I have nothing against it, but it seems the result of no opt-out is that some people will take action.

Flip

2013-08-14 09:54:05 am

1-Up!

Quote from CosmoWright:

In that case, why would you not put it on the leaderboard as well?

Beats me. I don't understand why people want to opt-out. I'm just saying that they will surely constitute such a negligible minority of all Leaderboard consumers that appeasing them by letting them refuse to have their time listed on the Leaderboard won't have much of an effect.

Like I said before, I understand if you just don't want to take that risk. I'm certainly not advocating "secret club circlejerks," or anything like that. I do think that if the Leaderboard has 9 of the 10 best times for a game, then a casual viewer probably won't resort to "youtube, sda, nico, twitch, and google for hours." The casual viewer will be content with the product you're providing. A rare omission here or there won't destroy the credibility of the Leaderboards, IMO.

garik16

2013-08-14 09:55:02 am

Quote from AdamAK:

Quote from garik16:

snip

You've started making assumptions about me rather than listing actual reasons. I want to hear you out to see if I can understand your point of view. Ad hominems are not conducive to my understanding.

I am not making assumptions or making ad homs. I like the idea of the leaderboards and think you have the best of intentions.

My issue is again that asking for justications essentially forces you to become a judge of people's reasons, which is something beyond what you should be aiming to do. What if say a Nicovideo record holder doesn't want his record to be known amongst non-Japanese people and thus is fine with his record being hard to find for non-Nico users (or anyone else)? Are you going to judge that?

PPE: MarioGalaxy2443g5 says it best for me.

Doesn't matter

Flip

Edit history:

Flip: 2013-08-14 09:57:25 am

2013-08-14 09:55:02 am

This post doesn't contribute to the discussion in a healthy way, so I removed it. If you want to try and word that in a bit more civil way, and have enough conviction about what you're saying to use your own username, by my guest. -Flip

iotku

Edit history:

iotku: 2013-08-14 10:02:37 am

iotku: 2013-08-14 09:59:15 am

2013-08-14 09:58:39 am

Quote from MarioGalaxy2433g5:

A lack of an option to opt out will probably cause people who have made up their minds to pull videos. Is that something that we should be looking to avoid, or is it a casualty of war? I mean I have nothing against it, but it seems the result of no opt-out is that some people will take action.

If somebody posts something online publicly they are responsible for their actions, it can be referenced and linked to. Welcome to the internet. If they don't want that to happen they'll have to remove the video or otherwise make it private.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2013-08-14 09:58:57 am

Quote from garik16:

If someone wants to post something onto youtube but not be publicized,

wut

CosmoWright

Edit history:

CosmoWright: 2013-08-14 10:38:54 am

CosmoWright: 2013-08-14 10:19:29 am

2013-08-14 09:59:27 am

Quote from garik16:

@Cosmo - this is the problem with the concept of World Records more than anything - if someone has a certain time but never posts it on the internet, they kind of have the WR - you just don't know it. So you don't care about it. You care about "Fastest Known Times."

Allowing an opt-out provision doesn't change this - the goal should still be to be at the top of the leaderboard, and if one guy beats that and then doesn't want his video listed, people should STILL BE TRYING TO BEAT THE GUY ON TOP OF THE LEADERBOARD.

If somebody never posts a run and nobody knows about it, it is not public knowledge, and there is no reason to worry about it. Completely irrelevant.

If somebody does post a run and it is public knowledge with a publicly available video, and the leaderboards do not reflect this despite some people being "in the know", then the leaderboards have failed to serve their purpose. It is a major difference.

garik16

2013-08-14 10:02:22 am

Quote from Naegleria:

Quote from garik16:

If someone wants to post something onto youtube but not be publicized,

wut

I fail to see the "wut" here. Again, people post things on the internet all the time without realizing the result is that everyone can see it. Honestly, it's to our benefit that this is done because some of these things are cool and wouldn't be posted otherwise! But when they do realize it, or if that realization is forced upon them, these things are often taken down, which is sad for everyone.

@Cosmo: Indeed. And if someone submitted a better run to SDA to replace it with all the modern tricks, then people would be working to beat those times. And all would still be fine.

I don't deny that some of SDA's purpose is made moot by some pages that are hopelessly out of date. I fail to see how opt-out makes that a threat.

sinister1

2013-08-14 10:03:12 am

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Garik: People can opt out in other ways that have already been mentioned (private TwitchTV channel, unlisted/private YouTube, etc.). You can't have your cake and eat it too, which is essentially what having a video on YouTube or Twitch or SDA but NOT on SRL is. You cannot choose who is going to view something that is publicly available on the internet. If you put it out there anyone with internet access is allowed to watch it. If you don't like that then remove it or use privacy options.

Also the point of listing reasons is to potentially get people to agree with you or consider another point of view. If you had really good reasons that have not been brought up maybe some folks would change their opinions and support opt-out.

Here is another thought. If the leaderboards go up with no opt-out and then there a huge problems because of it, then they can always be changed to have an opt-out feature.