Speedrun Leaderboards Discussion Topic (SRL)

Reed

Edit history:

Reed: 2013-08-14 08:54:15 pm

2013-08-14 08:52:23 pm

@tiburonCS

I personally don't think time conversions should be messed with at all. Lots of games have PAL-specific tricks (Halo), J-specific RNG (Dynamite Headdy), etc. PAL conversions are sometimes imperfect, too - it's not always just "17% slower," to the point where you could do a time conversion. The simplest solution seems to be just leaving it in the metadata and letting the user decide what they want to se.

CosmoWright

Edit history:

CosmoWright: 2013-08-14 08:59:04 pm

2013-08-14 08:52:30 pm

Quote from andrewg:

One major thought!

So, basically timing and version differences:

Runs should be compared directly and converted to directly compare say a J version and US version of the same game. That is, assuming most things are identical for a given game. PAL and NTSC should also be converted in the same manner, but NTSC has sort of become the standard, so this can be tricky. I just think time conversions should be handled properly, and time differences between versions should be compared thoroughly for an accurate leaderboard list.

There are definitely some games where perfect conversion is possible (I believe Mega Man X japanese vs english is one example). There are many others where you can only get a close approximation. For example I made this video about OoT on the iQue player vs the Wii VC (J) version. I am pretty confident that it's about 13 seconds faster in this route and category, but it is only an approximation.

If I were to make the leaderboard add 13.3 seconds onto every iQue player time on the OoT any% category, that would (imo) be overly confident about the difference. I think in cases like this, converting shouldn't be done because it is not perfect. I do think the approx difference should be listed on the page though so people understand. This affects many games with lag differences.

Additionally, converting PAL->NTSC would give a reaction time advantage to the PAL players, which I have seen being taken advantage of in games like Starfox 64 score attack and Mario Kart 64 ILs. Just something to think about. I'm curious about other people's thoughts on this issue. Remember though, the leaderboards will always be filterable using the tags, so you could filter the list however you want to see specific versions on their own if you wanted to.

[quote="andrewg"]One major thought!

So, basically timing and version differences:

Runs should be compared directly and converted to directly compare say a J version and US version of the same game. That is, assuming most things are identical for a given game. PAL and NTSC should also be converted in the same manner, but NTSC has sort of become the standard, so this can be tricky. I just think time conversions should be handled properly, and time differences between versions should be compared thoroughly for an accurate leaderboard list.[/quote]

There are definitely some games where perfect conversion is possible (I believe Mega Man X japanese vs english is one example). There are many others where you can only get a close approximation. For example I made [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkbhBSrco1s"]this video about OoT on the iQue player vs the Wii VC (J) version[/url]. I am pretty confident that it's about 13 seconds faster in this route and category, but it is only an approximation.

If I were to make the leaderboard add 13.3 seconds onto every iQue player time on the OoT any% category, that would (imo) be [i]overly[/i] confident about the difference. I think in cases like this, converting shouldn't be done because it is not perfect. I do think the approx difference should be listed on the page though so people understand. This affects many games with lag differences.

Additionally, converting PAL->NTSC would give a reaction time advantage to the PAL players, which I have seen being taken advantage of in games like Starfox 64 score attack and Mario Kart 64 ILs. Just something to think about. I'm curious about other people's thoughts on this issue. Remember though, the leaderboards [u]will always be filterable using the tags[/u], so you could filter the list however you want to see specific versions on their own if you wanted to.

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2013-08-14 09:03:35 pm

2013-08-14 09:01:12 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

Basically, I think that if the game differences can be calculated (Mostly thinking J and US), runs should be listed alongside each other. While I know there are many games that this would not be possible, I think in this case a separate list should be made entirely because if the time differences are unknown, listing other versions on the main list wouldn't really add any information. And really, it can discredit runs done on the non-standard version.

Fred

2013-08-14 09:04:26 pm

Not Really Hobbes

Quote from Maxx:

on the other hand, enforcing the integrity of the data becomes hard. to use OoT as an example, you have 3 rom versions, 5 official releases on 4 different consoles, 4 different regions, and 5 different languages. the user should be allowed (and strongly encouraged, maybe required) to submit as much of this information as possible. but v1.0 and v1.1 were only available as ntsc n64 releases, chinese was only available on the ique, german and french were only available on pal releases, etc. so you would need to prevent submissions like 1.1 VC, japanese ique, 1.0 german gamecube, and other things that don't exist. this information needs to be stored somewhere, and it's obviously way different for each game. not every game will even have different "versions" so this needs to be able to support arbitrary restrictions (imagine if the tingle tuner was only available on the japanese wind waker release, for example).

i don't know exactly how to solve that yet, but it's definitely something to think about on the technical side. it's something that needs to work correctly from the start, or it will only make growing the leaderboards to support more games increasingly complex as time goes on.

Basically there's all these different version parameters, like platform, region and software revision that occur on most games, but there's a lot of illegal combinations, right? So why allow to represent them at all?

It might make more sense to have a separate "version" table, which is indexed by game ID and stores all the legit combinations of parameters for every given game, coupled with a unique "version ID", which is referenced in the "times" table as an enum. When you try to add a run with a certain set of parameters, it queries the version table for a matching entry and returns the respective version ID if valid, otherwise spits out an error.

[quote="Maxx"]on the other hand, enforcing the integrity of the data becomes [i]hard[/i]. to use OoT as an example, you have 3 rom versions, 5 official releases on 4 different consoles, 4 different regions, and 5 different languages. the user should be allowed (and strongly encouraged, maybe required) to submit as much of this information as possible. but v1.0 and v1.1 were only available as ntsc n64 releases, chinese was only available on the ique, german and french were only available on pal releases, etc. so you would need to prevent submissions like 1.1 VC, japanese ique, 1.0 german gamecube, and other things that don't exist. this information needs to be stored somewhere, and it's obviously way different for each game. not every game will even have different "versions" so this needs to be able to support arbitrary restrictions (imagine if the tingle tuner was only available on the japanese wind waker release, for example).

i don't know exactly how to solve that yet, but it's definitely something to think about on the technical side. it's something that needs to work correctly from the start, or it will only make growing the leaderboards to support more games increasingly complex as time goes on.[/quote]
Basically there's all these different version parameters, like platform, region and software revision that occur on most games, but there's a lot of illegal combinations, right? So why allow to represent them at all?

It might make more sense to have a separate "version" table, which is indexed by game ID and stores all the legit combinations of parameters for every given game, coupled with a unique "version ID", which is referenced in the "times" table as an enum. When you try to add a run with a certain set of parameters, it queries the version table for a matching entry and returns the respective version ID if valid, otherwise spits out an error.

Patashu

2013-08-14 09:19:42 pm

I think if there are too many possible version differences, console differences, etc. it can become overly cluttered to have a big list of all of them on the page. How about tags that have extra information have a hover-overable next to them (for example a (?)). When you mouse over it a pop-up fades in listing information about the tag (for a version, version differences and timing differences; for a category, information about the category; for a particular serial of PS3, how good it is for loading times; etc)

mrvoids

2013-08-14 09:59:24 pm

As far as service integration goes I would check into Inspire IRCd. It's one of the few irc servers I can find that has sql (and LDAP) support including an authentication module against queries. The biggest hurdle I can see with integrating the different service account would be with the irc server and I know that would probably be a pain to replace the current server, but the native sql might be worth it to make connecting it to the forums and such much easier depending on the forum implementation.

nate

Edit history:

nate: 2013-08-14 10:15:22 pm

2013-08-14 10:08:17 pm

tf's api is just a https GET thing that replies in json if a reply is needed. it's meant to be used by anything that can make an https GET and parse json. i think it might be interesting for people to use the same name on irc as they do on the forum - maybe mangled since the irc server would have to be pretty permissive to be as permissive as tf. i think there are like two disallowed characters in tf. anyway, that's one idea. if you want to use a name on irc that's in use on the forum then you have to provide the password for that name (to nickserv or whatever replaces it). just like logging in on the forum.

edit: ok, it's actually https POST. i guess i figured it would be cleaner that way.

Solairflaire

2013-08-14 11:03:09 pm

So, a few things.

1) PC Game timings

Would it be possible to have timings that exclude load times on games as an optional part? Still have the RTA timing, but only have a w/out load times part after. Sort of like having in game time next to the RTA time.

2) Name

Names are a powerful thing. In my mind, calling it the SRL leader boards makes it sound like it's only for people who are a part of SRL, or that it's supposed to be just the best race times. I believe Kirkq had said something about just having it called The Speedrunners LB, or something like that. I don't think it matters where it's hosted, just what it's called (same with this thread).

3) The Opt Out stuff

I know people are sick of it at this point, but I feel I need to say something here. The main issue I have with this is that it takes something I did and removes most of the control I feel I used to have over it. Whether that control is real or not is irrelevant, it removes any perception of control I had. I know the LBs are supposed to be all inclusive and be an awesome resource. I think that's an excellent goal. But, it does feel that, with the way the rules are right now, that the administrators of it don't care about peoples' feelings at all. If someone thinks that SRL, SDA, and the Leaderboards are full of people who are bullies/something else bad and don't want to be associated with them in any way, what right do you have to force them to be a part of it? Putting their name on that leaderboard automatically associates them with it, which they didn't ask for.

This mostly stems from the fact that someone can take someone else's run and get it put up on the leaderboard without their permission. I think a more elegant solution would be to still allow that, but ask the original runner what they want to do with it. Give them 3 options:

A) Put it up with their name
B) Put it up as Anonymous with no video
C) Don't put it up at all

Make sure the person understands that once a time is on the leaderboard, it isn't removed. This keeps the person in control without stepping on anyone's toes and still keeps with the main goal of the LBs. I'm sure most people would be willing to have their time up as anonymous even if they dislike the majority of the Speed Running Community. It also means they need a video of the run in the first place.

So, a few things.

1) PC Game timings

Would it be possible to have timings that exclude load times on games as an optional part? Still have the RTA timing, but only have a w/out load times part after. Sort of like having in game time next to the RTA time.

2) Name

Names are a powerful thing. In my mind, calling it the SRL leader boards makes it sound like it's only for people who are a part of SRL, or that it's supposed to be just the best race times. I believe Kirkq had said something about just having it called The Speedrunners LB, or something like that. I don't think it matters where it's hosted, just what it's called (same with this thread).

3) The Opt Out stuff

I know people are sick of it at this point, but I feel I need to say something here. The main issue I have with this is that it takes something I did and removes most of the control I feel I used to have over it. Whether that control is real or not is irrelevant, it removes any perception of control I had. I know the LBs are supposed to be all inclusive and be an awesome resource. I think that's an excellent goal. But, it does feel that, with the way the rules are right now, that the administrators of it don't care about peoples' feelings at all. If someone thinks that SRL, SDA, and the Leaderboards are full of people who are bullies/something else bad and don't want to be associated with them in any way, what right do you have to force them to be a part of it? Putting their name on that leaderboard automatically associates them with it, which they didn't ask for.

This mostly stems from the fact that someone can take someone else's run and get it put up on the leaderboard without their permission. I think a  more elegant solution would be to still allow that, but ask the original runner what they want to do with it. Give them 3 options:

A) Put it up with their name
B) Put it up as Anonymous with no video
C) Don't put it up at all

Make sure the person understands that once a time is on the leaderboard, it isn't removed. This keeps the person in control without stepping on anyone's toes and still keeps with the main goal of the LBs. I'm sure most people would be willing to have their time up as anonymous even if they dislike the majority of the Speed Running Community. It also means they need a video of the run in the first place.

AdamAK

2013-08-14 11:11:17 pm

Totally rad

Wikipedia lists a gigantic number of names on its website. Does that mean that every name listed on there is part of the "wikipedia community"? No.
Does having a name on the leaderboards imply anything other than that the person is a speedrunner? No.

Wymorn

2013-08-14 11:14:58 pm

Rank 1 Goatborn

Quote from AdamAK:

Wikipedia lists a gigantic number of names on its website. Does that mean that every name listed on there is part of the "wikipedia community"? No.
Does having a name on the leaderboards imply anything other than that the person is a speedrunner? No.

Very much this. I'm tired of this argument being perpetuated by people who are arguing for the sake of arguing.

nmaster64

2013-08-14 11:35:59 pm

I think this is far-and-away the best, most insightful post on the matter:

Quote from inzult:

If some big project like this is perceived as attempting to co-opt smaller communities and leaderboards that grew organically out of there not being a centralized leaderboard, it's not too surprising that people get upset. They might not even know why. They may want to stay out what they see as the other community altogether. This could mean ignoring it, or it might mean a runner not wanting their run listed at all. Of course, it seems to me like that isn't the goal of The LeaderBoard, and it's "just a list". But if the response is "oh well gotta keep the board accurate your run stays" then you run the risk of planting poisonous seeds inside those communities of runners, and alienating everyone. If this is acceptable collateral, then fine. But it is something to keep in mind regardless.

If someone really wants to run a centralized records keeping site, and some drama happens (which is really rare, I know, but stay with me here) with some runners and they actually do feel like they need to take their runs down in response, then it absolutely is the responsibility of the community at large. Obviously you don't choose what an individual does with their video, and if one gets taken down it's not because the community wanted it taken down. But I don't see how someone can build The Place To Go, intentionally not have something in place to alleviate problems, and wash their hands of what happens by just saying "hey, it's not our choice". Especially if there is no choice given.

It has nothing to do with respect, or who owns what, or the law or anything. It just has to do with perception, with people's feelings, with autonomy etc. If you try to use logic on a Mad Person, it won't work.

I don't know how people ought to go about solving these problems, and maybe there actually isn't a way. Unfortunately, for a lot of people, groups are coloured by their worst elements and I'm not sure you can change someone's mind if their problem just boils down to they don't like SRL. But being dismissive of the issues people have (which is even more rare than drama but hold on, I'm almost done) probably isn't the right way. I've seen a lot more LOL NOPE in this thread than I was expecting when I first clicked on it.

\_o_/

I think this is far-and-away the best, most insightful post on the matter: [hidden][quote="inzult"]If some big project like this is [i]perceived as[/i] attempting to co-opt smaller communities and leaderboards that grew organically out of there not being a centralized leaderboard, it's not too surprising that people get upset. They might not even know why. They may want to stay out what they see as [i]the other[/i] community altogether. This could mean ignoring it, or it might mean a runner not wanting their run listed at all. Of course, it seems to me like that isn't the goal of The LeaderBoard, and it's "just a list". But if the response is "oh well gotta keep the board accurate your run stays" then you run the risk of planting poisonous seeds inside those communities of runners, and alienating everyone. If this is acceptable collateral, then fine. But it is something to keep in mind regardless.

If someone really wants to run a centralized records keeping site, and some drama happens (which is really rare, I know, but stay with me here) with some runners and they actually do feel like they need to take their runs down in response, then it absolutely is the responsibility of the community at large. Obviously you don't choose what an individual does with their video, and if one gets taken down it's not because the community wanted it taken down. But I don't see how someone can build The Place To Go, intentionally not have something in place to alleviate problems, and wash their hands of what happens by just saying "hey, it's not our choice". Especially if there is no choice given.

It has nothing to do with respect, or who owns what, or the law or anything. It just has to do with perception, with people's feelings, with autonomy etc. If you try to use logic on a Mad Person, it won't work.

I don't know how people ought to go about solving these problems, and maybe there actually isn't a way. Unfortunately, for a lot of people, groups are coloured by their worst elements and I'm not sure you can change someone's mind if their problem just boils down to they don't like SRL. But being dismissive of the issues people have (which is even more rare than drama but hold on, I'm almost done) probably isn't the right way. I've seen a lot more LOL NOPE in this thread than I was expecting when I first clicked on it.

\_o_/[/quote]
[/hidden]

CubicalSucrose

2013-08-15 02:45:21 am

This is a fantastic endeavor and I'm really hyped to see how it evolves over time.

I think PB tracking could be a great feature to help runners document their own progress and maybe add some motivation to improve, excited to see how that works out.

One thing I recall Trihex mentioning months ago is a place to share splits. It feels like this would be a great opportunity to either store or link to splits for a documented video. Perhaps have some optional text form to fill out, or just an additional URL field during submission. Maybe even allow amendments to this, so if other curious people have created splits for an already-submitted run and want to share them, they're able to do so. Not necessary information by any means, but it does seem to jive with the idea of ``reducing the time spent by someone looking for information about the current fastest runs available.''

mike89

2013-08-15 05:04:19 am

SEGA Junkie

Quote from CubicalSucrose:

One thing I recall Trihex mentioning months ago is a place to share splits.

I daresay it can be pursued outside the leaderboard framework, but I just wanted to note that this is a really good idea and should appear in the overall speedrunning framework -somewhere-.

rudyxx

Edit history:

rudyxx: 2013-08-15 06:36:45 am

2013-08-15 06:22:08 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from mike89:

Quote from CubicalSucrose:

One thing I recall Trihex mentioning months ago is a place to share splits.

I daresay it can be pursued outside the leaderboard framework, but I just wanted to note that this is a really good idea and should appear in the overall speedrunning framework -somewhere-.

I feel like this would be information that would pertain to the Knowledge Base.

Also I mentioned this to Kirkq yesterday, but there is a certain unawareness that some people have about the actual model of the console affecting the overall time and I feel like actual model numbers should be required in many cases.

The biggest known problem with this is in PS1 and PS2 games. A common misconception with playstation games is that they all play faster on a slim ps2. This is not always the case. The 55000 model of a ps2 will play text heavy PS1 games faster than the 90000 series models of PS2. The 90000 series models will play graphics intense games faster than the 50000 series. The 50000 series models are all fat PS2 systems. The PSN version of PS1 games will play ridiculously slower on PS3 than any other console, and the PSN version of a PS1 game will play ridiculously faster on a PSP than any other system.

The 50000 series PS2 will actually handle some PS2 games better than the 70000 series (which is a slim model). But overall the 90000 series will play PS2 games faster than every other console.

I could pretty much go on forever with this.

I don't know how this may have an effect on other consoles and games, but I do feel like this is something that a lot of people are unaware of enough that it might not even be all that well known about on other systems. In some cases, we could actually learn new information simply by having it be included/required.

[quote="mike89"][quote="CubicalSucrose"]One thing I recall Trihex mentioning months ago is a place to share splits.[/quote]

I daresay it can be pursued outside the leaderboard framework, but I just wanted to note that this is a really good idea and should appear in the overall speedrunning framework -somewhere-.[/quote]

I feel like this would be information that would pertain to the Knowledge Base.

Also I mentioned this to Kirkq yesterday, but there is a certain unawareness that some people have about the actual model of the console affecting the overall time and I feel like actual model numbers should be required in many cases.

The biggest known problem with this is in PS1 and PS2 games. A common misconception with playstation games is that they all play faster on a slim ps2. This is not always the case. The 55000 model of a ps2 will play text heavy PS1 games faster than the 90000 series models of PS2. The 90000 series models will play graphics intense games faster than the 50000 series. The 50000 series models are all fat PS2 systems. The PSN version of PS1 games will play ridiculously slower on PS3 than any other console, and the PSN version of a PS1 game will play ridiculously faster on a PSP than any other system.

The 50000 series PS2 will actually handle some PS2 games better than the 70000 series (which is a slim model). But overall the 90000 series will play PS2 games faster than every other console.

I could pretty much go on forever with this.

I don't know how this may have an effect on other consoles and games, but I do feel like this is something that a lot of people are unaware of enough that it might not even be all that well known about on other systems. In some cases, we could actually learn new information simply by having it be included/required.

Solairflaire

2013-08-15 06:33:57 am

I do have one question. Why would times be removed from the leaderboard when there is no video anymore if it's already been cleared of cheating?

Quote from AdamAK:

Wikipedia lists a gigantic number of names on its website. Does that mean that every name listed on there is part of the "wikipedia community"? No.
Does having a name on the leaderboards imply anything other than that the person is a speedrunner? No.

There's a difference between being associated with something and being a part of it. I'll give an example.

In the past, the Fighting Game Community has been viewed as a place where sexism and brawling (between people, not in a game) are common place. Now imagine you are going to a major tournament with a friend. You're just going to see what it's like and don't play any Fighting Games. You're friend is in the tournament. You meet some people, talk about your speedrunning and give out your username so they can come and watch. Some time later, say a week, you go online and find that people are calling you sexist for going to that tournament. You never were a part of that community, but you have been associated with it and the negative stuff follows you.

Granted, that was a bit of an extreme example, but it does apply here. Gamers and gaming still have a negative Stigma. In some professions, it can actually be made a lot harder to get a job just because you admit that you play video games. This is a real concern because you are indirectly harming these people. It's the association here that's a problem. If someone submits a video of their own accord, it's their responsibility and keeping their time up is fine (as long as the ToS says that). The problem really comes in when they don't submit it themselves.

I presented a solution that would work in my previous post that I believe mostly solves the issue. I doubt it would be logistically possible to completely get rid of it, but I do believe that effort should be put in to accommodate those people.

I do have one question. Why would times be removed from the leaderboard when there is no video anymore if it's already been cleared of cheating?

[quote="AdamAK"]Wikipedia lists a gigantic number of names on its website. Does that mean that every name listed on there is part of the "wikipedia community"? No.
Does having a name on the leaderboards imply anything other than that the person is a speedrunner? No.[/quote]

There's a difference between being associated with something and being a part of it. I'll give an example.

In the past, the Fighting Game Community has been viewed as a place where sexism and brawling (between people, not in a game) are common place. Now imagine you are going to a major tournament with a friend. You're just going to see what it's like and don't play any Fighting Games. You're friend is in the tournament. You meet some people, talk about your speedrunning and give out your username so they can come and watch. Some time later, say a week, you go online and find that people are calling you sexist for going to that tournament. You never were a part of that community, but you have been associated with it and the negative stuff follows you.

Granted, that was a bit of an extreme example, but it does apply here. Gamers and gaming still have a negative Stigma. In some professions, it can actually be made a lot harder to get a job just because you admit that you play video games. This is a real concern because you are indirectly harming these people. It's the association here that's a problem. If someone submits a video of their own accord, it's their responsibility and keeping their time up is fine (as long as the ToS says that). The problem really comes in when they don't submit it themselves.

I presented a solution that would work in my previous post that I believe mostly solves the issue. I doubt it would be logistically possible to completely get rid of it, but I do believe that effort should be put in to accommodate those people.

rudyxx

2013-08-15 06:42:14 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from Solairflaire:

In some professions, it can actually be made a lot harder to get a job just because you admit that you play video games. This is a real concern because you are indirectly harming these people. It's the association here that's a problem.

Anyone who is living a life where they are in a situation like this, needs to seriously take a look at their life and rethink the direction it is going. If you can't be who you are, or enjoy doing the things that you do because you are afraid or embarrassed about being yourself, then why do you even surround yourself with people that make you uncomfortable. These people should follow a different career path or find a better place to work, otherwise you will hate your job and your life and in turn only be hurting yourself.

S.

2013-08-15 06:59:47 am

Quote:

Granted, that was a bit of an extreme example, but it does apply here. Gamers and gaming still have a negative Stigma. In some professions, it can actually be made a lot harder to get a job just because you admit that you play video games. This is a real concern because you are indirectly harming these people. It's the association here that's a problem. If someone submits a video of their own accord, it's their responsibility and keeping their time up is fine (as long as the ToS says that). The problem really comes in when they don't submit it themselves.

Then don't throw your name around on the internet. That's what nicknames are for.

Alko

2013-08-15 07:00:47 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Maxx:

on the other hand, enforcing the integrity of the data becomes hard. to use OoT as an example, you have 3 rom versions, 5 official releases on 4 different consoles, 4 different regions, and 5 different languages. the user should be allowed (and strongly encouraged, maybe required) to submit as much of this information as possible. but v1.0 and v1.1 were only available as ntsc n64 releases, chinese was only available on the ique, german and french were only available on pal releases, etc. so you would need to prevent submissions like 1.1 VC, japanese ique, 1.0 german gamecube, and other things that don't exist. this information needs to be stored somewhere, and it's obviously way different for each game. not every game will even have different "versions" so this needs to be able to support arbitrary restrictions (imagine if the tingle tuner was only available on the japanese wind waker release, for example).

i don't know exactly how to solve that yet, but it's definitely something to think about on the technical side. it's something that needs to work correctly from the start, or it will only make growing the leaderboards to support more games increasingly complex as time goes on.

I believe this should be easy to handle. Since these kinds of options (and these options' combinations) are different for every game, they will have to be entered manually. When entering an option, always point out which choices are illegal together with that option. (language=German makes system=NTSC, version=1.0 and version=1.1 illegal choices. system=NTSC makes language=German and language=French illegal choices). My gut feeling tells me, this shouldn't be hard to implement.

[quote="Maxx"]on the other hand, enforcing the integrity of the data becomes [i]hard[/i]. to use OoT as an example, you have 3 rom versions, 5 official releases on 4 different consoles, 4 different regions, and 5 different languages. the user should be allowed (and strongly encouraged, maybe required) to submit as much of this information as possible. but v1.0 and v1.1 were only available as ntsc n64 releases, chinese was only available on the ique, german and french were only available on pal releases, etc. so you would need to prevent submissions like 1.1 VC, japanese ique, 1.0 german gamecube, and other things that don't exist. this information needs to be stored somewhere, and it's obviously way different for each game. not every game will even have different "versions" so this needs to be able to support arbitrary restrictions (imagine if the tingle tuner was only available on the japanese wind waker release, for example).

i don't know exactly how to solve that yet, but it's definitely something to think about on the technical side. it's something that needs to work correctly from the start, or it will only make growing the leaderboards to support more games increasingly complex as time goes on.[/quote]
I believe this [i]should[/i] be easy to handle. Since these kinds of options (and these options' combinations) are different for every game, they will have to be entered manually. When entering an option, always point out which choices are illegal together with that option. (language=German makes system=NTSC, version=1.0 and version=1.1 illegal choices. system=NTSC makes language=German and language=French illegal choices). My gut feeling tells me, this shouldn't be hard to implement.

kirkq

Edit history:

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:06:53 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:06:21 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:05:10 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:04:35 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:04:28 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:04:18 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:03:28 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 04:03:09 pm

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:36:50 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:36:48 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:35:52 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:33:05 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:28:32 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:23:00 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:22:38 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:18:29 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:18:11 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:17:32 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:17:05 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:12:06 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:11:43 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:07:55 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:07:40 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:04:24 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:03:58 am

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:03:22 am

2013-08-15 07:02:30 am

Die Hard 2013.

Let me ask a string of questions related to the opt out issue. Really they are just yes or no questions in my opinion.

Separate from "being in a time table": (Imagine links at the top of the game page)

Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the SDA Knowledge Base for each game as a resource?
What if the SDA Knowledge Base for each game links to the SDA Records page, can we still link to it?
Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the SDA Records page as a resource?
Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the SDA forum game thread as a resource?
If the first post in these SDA forum game threads is about someone who doesn't want their run up, are you okay with us linking to it? (Edit: Reworded for clarity)
If the tenth post in these SDA forum game threads is about someone who doesn't want their run up, are you okay with us linking to it? (Edit: Reworded for clarity)
Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the Leaderboards forum game thread as a resource?
If the first post in these Leaderboards forum threads is about someone's run on youtube or SDA or twitch who doesn't want their run up, do you expect us to moderate it out of existence? (Careful of wording)
If the tenth post in these Leaderboards forum threads is about someone's run on youtube or SDA or twitch who doesn't want their run up, do you expect us to moderate it out of existence? (Careful of wording)

If Leaderboards can "morally" do all these things, which I perceive are acceptable. You're effectively in my opinion just saying that we can't put information in a database that we are already tangentially linking to.

Other Questions:

Can Leaderboards link to: http://nintendo-records.com/
Can Leaderboards link to: http://nintendo-records.com/zelda2/
Can Leaderboards link to: http://redcandle.us/
Can Leaderboards link to: http://redcandle.us/Zelda_II:_The_Adventure_of_Link
Can Leaderboards forum threads link to these?
Can Leaderboards link to SDA forum game pages that link to these?

I'm only linking these as relevant examples of things people don't seem to want us linking to. I don't really have any interest in linking to these; I'm just curious whether or not you think I morally can do these things.

Where do you draw the line?

Let me ask a string of questions related to the opt out issue.  Really they are just yes or no questions in my opinion.

Separate from "being in a time table": (Imagine links at the top of the game page)

Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the SDA Knowledge Base for each game as a resource?  
What if the SDA Knowledge Base for each game links to the SDA Records page, can we still link to it? 
Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the SDA Records page as a resource?
Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the SDA forum game thread as a resource?
If the first post in these SDA forum game threads is about someone who doesn't want their run up, are you okay with us linking to it? (Edit: Reworded for clarity) 
If the tenth post in these SDA forum game threads is about someone who doesn't want their run up, are you okay with us linking to it?  (Edit: Reworded for clarity)
Can Leaderboards Game Pages link to the Leaderboards forum game thread as a resource?
If the first post in these Leaderboards forum threads is about someone's run on youtube or SDA or twitch who doesn't want their run up, do you expect us to moderate it out of existence? (Careful of wording)
If the tenth post in these Leaderboards forum threads is about someone's run on youtube or SDA or twitch who doesn't want their run up, do you expect us to moderate it out of existence? (Careful of wording)

If Leaderboards can "morally" do all these things, which I perceive are acceptable.  You're effectively in my opinion just saying that we can't put information in a database that we are already tangentially linking to.

Other Questions:

Can Leaderboards link to: http://nintendo-records.com/
Can Leaderboards link to: http://nintendo-records.com/zelda2/
Can Leaderboards link to: http://redcandle.us/
Can Leaderboards link to: http://redcandle.us/Zelda_II:_The_Adventure_of_Link
Can Leaderboards forum threads link to these?
Can Leaderboards link to SDA forum game pages that link to these?

I'm only linking these as relevant examples of things people don't seem to want us linking to.  I don't really have any interest in linking to these; I'm just curious whether or not you think I morally can do these things.

[u]Where do you draw the line?[/u]

Blubbler

2013-08-15 07:05:29 am

Quote from Solairflaire:

In some professions, it can actually be made a lot harder to get a job just because you admit that you play video games.

You don't have to put your real name on your videos and I don't see why an employer would rather use SRL than Google.
This whole "opt-out" debate seems really ridiculous to me. There are tons of runs linked on the SDA forums without permission, why does nobody complain about that? Why does nobody complain about reddit linking to their runs? It seems to me there are just some bitter persons who want to damage SRL.

Quote from zewing:

@blubber the YI community didn't know the top runners in japan used turbo till we were told. text is not only way turbo is useful

Then you can put the Turbo option as yes, no, ?. Still no reason to exclude japanese players by default.

Quote from Alko:

I believe this should be easy to handle. Since these kinds of options (and these options' combinations) are different for every game, they will have to be entered manually. When entering an option, always point out which choices are illegal together with that option. (language=German makes system=NTSC, version=1.0 and version=1.1 illegal choices. system=NTSC makes language=German and language=French illegal choices). My gut feeling tells me, this shouldn't be hard to implement.

It may not be hard to implement, but I think it's pretty useless anyway. If an illegal combination is entered, a moderator should catch it. If you want to view an illegal combination, you just look at an empty list.

[quote="Solairflaire"]In some professions, it can actually be made a lot harder to get a job just because you admit that you play video games.[/quote]
You don't have to put your real name on your videos and I don't see why an employer would rather use SRL than Google.
This whole "opt-out" debate seems really ridiculous to me. There are tons of runs linked on the SDA forums without permission, why does nobody complain about that? Why does nobody complain about reddit linking to their runs? It seems to me there are just some bitter persons who want to damage SRL.

[quote="zewing"]@blubber the YI community didn't know the top runners in japan used turbo till we were told.  text is not only way turbo is useful[/quote]
Then you can put the Turbo option as yes, no, ?. Still no reason to exclude japanese players by default.

[quote="Alko"]I believe this [i]should[/i] be easy to handle. Since these kinds of options (and these options' combinations) are different for every game, they will have to be entered manually. When entering an option, always point out which choices are illegal together with that option. (language=German makes system=NTSC, version=1.0 and version=1.1 illegal choices. system=NTSC makes language=German and language=French illegal choices). My gut feeling tells me, this shouldn't be hard to implement.[/quote]
It may not be hard to implement, but I think it's pretty useless anyway. If an illegal combination is entered, a moderator should catch it. If you want to view an illegal combination, you just look at an empty list.

RaneofSOTN

2013-08-15 07:42:58 am

I want off the ride....

My only concern is that people dont want you linking to their created content. And my issue with this is that the content can be linked to without that user's consent/etc/etc.

There was a case sometime ago with the NYTimes vs a UK newspaper over that newspaper's website linking to NYTimes headlines. This was caused because they were bypassing the NYTimes "homepage" which was another source of AD revenue. Thus by linking the headlines directly to pages, NYTimes was losing out on money and as such can be seen as a legal issue. AFAIK for any site that hosts User Created Content, you agree to the terms and conditions that gives that website permissions to hold your data and show it. Where as with this leaderboard site, someone can post your run (which was your created content) without your permission.

Now with people making a living off of this "past time" with streaming, ad-revenue and partnership this is becoming worse and worse. You could say that linking the run is only positive but thats a slippery slope. What if we start EMBEDDING youtubes/twitches into the pages for ease of users... Then we start getting into grayer areas. I'm runner x, never knew about SRL and suddenly my run got linked on the leaderboards and things happen for better or worse. This leaderboard without that users permissions have aggregated information and it could be a problem.

Now I did some diving and since the point of this board is to be essentially educational in nature for the runs (learning about the times, seeing the run to learn more about it) it may not even apply (this is where wikipedia and other websites get some leeway). But then again its an issue.

What exactly is educational? And who is deciding this. This is a moral gray issue because for some large percentage of the general population, this is not educational or ever will be educational.

Also for the case of Usain Bolt's WR run, that was done at a public event and i'm sure he had given permissions to prevent that measure. But if a user creates content, and they put that content somewhere that is their own (own website/etc) then we have another issue as that could harm their own business. Youtube/Twitch protected links should basically be handed around carefully and thats a gray area.

My only issue is the MORAL gray area of someone else handling my content and passing it onto you guys. They wanna pass on the time? Sure thats public knowledge. They wanna pass on the video... well it may or may not have been a public thing, and telling me to "take it off the internet or go cry about it" is going to spawn issues later. Potentially legal issues, because someone didn't give consent for their content to be attached to the website. They had never accepted the terms or etc. So if this leaderboard ever did get a bad name (not saying it would, but...) aren't we morally obligated to make sure only those people who actually associate with it, are the ones affiliated?

My issue isn't with the leaderboard, its goal, or anything. Its its attitude towards User Created Content (runs made by people, because it basically is our own content, we added something MAJOR to a piece of work to consider it our own) and who can throw it around randomly. People throwing out links can usually not be harmful but we are still in the moral gray areas of computer ethics and I'm just worried.

My only concern is that people dont want you linking to their created content. And my issue with this is that the content can be linked to without that user's consent/etc/etc.

There was a case sometime ago with the NYTimes vs a UK newspaper over that newspaper's website  linking to NYTimes headlines. This was caused because they were bypassing the NYTimes "homepage" which was another source of AD revenue. Thus by linking the headlines directly to pages, NYTimes was losing out on money and as such can be seen as a legal issue. AFAIK for any site that hosts User Created Content, you agree to the terms and conditions that gives that website permissions to hold your data and show it. Where as with this leaderboard site, someone can post your run (which was your created content) without your permission.

Now with people making a living off of this "past time" with streaming, ad-revenue and partnership this is becoming worse and worse. You could say that linking the run is only positive but thats a slippery slope. What if we start EMBEDDING youtubes/twitches into the pages for ease of users... Then we start getting into grayer areas. I'm runner x, never knew about SRL and suddenly my run got linked on the leaderboards and things happen for better or worse. This leaderboard without that users permissions have aggregated information and it could be a problem.

Now I did some diving and since the point of this board is to be essentially educational in nature for the runs (learning about the times, seeing the run to learn more about it) it may not even apply (this is where wikipedia and other websites get some leeway). But then again its an issue.

What exactly is educational? And who is deciding this. This is a moral gray issue because for some large percentage of the general population, this is not educational or ever will be educational.

Also for the case of Usain Bolt's WR run, that was done at a public event and i'm sure he had given permissions to prevent that measure. But if a user creates content, and they put that content somewhere that is their own (own website/etc) then we have another issue as that could harm their own business. Youtube/Twitch protected links should basically be handed around carefully and thats a gray area.

My only issue is the MORAL gray area of someone else handling my content and passing it onto you guys. They wanna pass on the time? Sure thats public knowledge. They wanna pass on the video... well it may or may not have been a public thing, and telling me to "take it off the internet or go cry about it" is going to spawn issues later. Potentially legal issues, because someone didn't give consent for their content to be attached to the website. They had never accepted the terms or etc. So if this leaderboard ever did get a bad name (not saying it would, but...) aren't we morally obligated to make sure only those people who actually associate with it, are the ones affiliated?

My issue isn't with the leaderboard, its goal, or anything. Its its attitude towards User Created Content (runs made by people, because it basically is our own content, we added something MAJOR to a piece of work to consider it our own) and who can throw it around randomly. People throwing out links can usually not be harmful but we are still in the moral gray areas of computer ethics and I'm just [i]worried.[/i]

luigimeister

2013-08-15 07:52:33 am

Likes SoM far too much

Well technically speaking the video-game company owns the footage (especially if the content creators aren't commenting over it) and the content creators shouldn't be able to monetize it in the first place. Luckily for lpers, speedrunners and the like, video-game companies ignore it for the most part. It's not really the best example of monetized/user-created content. So if anyone can get legally angry it would have to be the video-game company, and I doubt they really care if someone is spreading around game footage of their games that they're fine with being on the internet. In short, I don't really see how this is a morally grey issue at all. Most speedrunners don't own anything about a video except the possible commentary.

kirkq

Edit history:

kirkq: 2013-08-15 07:54:04 am

2013-08-15 07:53:14 am

Die Hard 2013.

Rane: It's not an upload of your content, it's a link to your content. We do not host user created content. We reference and link to user created content. It might not even be embedded. No one is taking revenue from anyone. In fact if anything we're contributing to your revenue. That seems to be half your argument.

Lenophis

2013-08-15 07:54:34 am

0-10

kirk: You mention "records" several times, and for some reason it has to constantly be repeated: SDA is not a world records site. Video archive site, that's it.

Quote from Blubbler:

It seems to me there are just some bitter persons who want to damage SRL.

Nice assumption giving a generalization of pettiness. Grow the fuck up. I've told Cosmo this before, and he can confirm it. I want no part of such a hateful community.

RaneofSOTN

2013-08-15 07:57:31 am

I want off the ride....

Quote from kirkq:

Rane: It's not an upload of your content, it's a link to your content. We do not host user created content. We reference and link to user created content. It might not even be embedded. No one is taking revenue from anyone. In fact if anything we're contributing to your revenue. That seems to be half your argument.

Issue with this statement.

Say i do runs on twitch just to do the live feeds and never ever save a video but later upload high quality videos to my own server. And I bank off the ad revenue of the webpages people view to get my run. By linking to the run (download of it) people are thusly circumventing my ad revenue. Problem. I stated that this as a general statement. Circumventing a page was seen as enough course to engage legal action by NYTimes vs another paper. What would be the minimum here?

I'm not arguing against things. I just want to bring up the gray areas as reasons to step back and think if this is really a GOOD FREAKING idea. Would you want to be called up on b/c someone else linked a run that is hosted on a user's site (for instance old runs of Resident Evil that are/were on Zero's {a famous resident evil} website?

Case of Youtube/twitch, cool! User created site?.... ehhhhh problems.

[quote="kirkq"]Rane: It's not an upload of your content, it's a link to your content.  We do not host user created content.  We reference and link to user created content.  It might not even be embedded.  No one is taking revenue from anyone.  In fact if anything we're contributing to your revenue.  That seems to be half your argument.[/quote]
Issue with this statement.

Say i do runs on twitch just to do the live feeds and never ever save a video but later upload high quality videos to my own server. And I bank off the ad revenue of the webpages people view to get my run. By linking to the run (download of it) people are thusly circumventing my ad revenue. Problem. I stated that this as a general statement. Circumventing a page was seen as enough course to engage legal action by NYTimes vs another paper. What would be the minimum here?

I'm not arguing against things. I just want to bring up the gray areas as reasons to step back and think if this is really a GOOD FREAKING idea. Would you want to be called up on b/c someone else linked a run that is hosted on a user's site (for instance old runs of Resident Evil that are/were on Zero's {a famous resident evil} website?

Case of Youtube/twitch, cool! User created site?.... ehhhhh problems.