Speedruns on TV

Edit history:

naughty_hanyou: 2005-07-13 12:46:44 am

2005-07-13 12:43:19 am

The 70 star run of Mario 64 was only shown for like 30 seconds. They didn't say anything about LeCoureur103 at all. All they said was that is was a very good run and to download it right away. Oh yeah, on Filter they showed SDA on the cool websites to check out thing.

Trevor

2005-07-16 10:06:27 pm

I only caught the later half, but the Super Mario Bros speedrun was shown on cinematech today. no credit whatsoever was given to the player, unless they mentioned something in the beginning which I doubt. this problem can only worsen unless we do something about it. I'm going to send them an e-mail.

DragonWarriorr

2005-07-17 07:28:34 am

Currently needing ideas on games to speedrun

Wow, I had no idea this was even going on. Figures that they would steal things without credit. Maybe we should start copyrighting speedruns XD

alexpenev

2005-07-17 08:47:41 am

I think speedruns would automatically have a copyright, because they are an original work and require effort to create (no different to writing a piece of code, essay, etc). Yeah?

soteos

2005-07-17 09:01:03 am

Well, we're the first ones to have to deal with this "problem." I say "problem" because it hasn't happened enough for any rules to be established. There's the Mario bros run done by someone we don't know not credited; the Zelda run by TSA not credited; and the Mario 64 segments by LeCoureur, but linked to this site. Maybe we should wait until more runs are shown before we go all "they're stealing our work". Hey, it's nice to have them on tv in the first place.
Could the copyright lie with the companies (eg Nintendo) instead of the runners?

Mkt2015

Edit history:

Mkt2015: 2005-07-17 12:09:44 pm

2005-07-17 12:08:49 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

I was thinking about if the runs are somewhat still property of the companies...especially if someone did a story run of a game. What would be the point of buying the game if TSA had already done a story run of Twilight Princess and had the whole thing posted before the game came out.

Me smells a lawsuit.

naughty_hanyou

2005-07-17 01:59:22 pm

Exactly........................but government can suck it.

TSA

2005-07-17 11:24:36 pm

Retired

Nintendo can't do shit about a speed run I do unless it is out before the release of the game I did the run on.

So if I do a speed run of Twilight Princess, there is a risk of Nintendo getting mad if it comes out early. Hence I will ask Radix to wait until 3 days before launch...that way it will be the WEEKEND when Nintendo is closed, and by the time they find out, the game will be out and it will be pointless for them to remove it. Not to mention, they did tell me I could post FULL MEDIA the day I get the game...so wtf...

As for normal speed runs, as long as you obtained the game legally, you retain right to the performance since it is a non-interactive video. You are not giving away secrets, you are not giving away anything that causes financial damage to Nintendo (it's not the game you're giving out, it's a video). The onyl thing Nintendo could muscle around with is the fact you sell some of the runs on DVD. That's making a profit...so not sure about that.

Mkt2015

2005-07-17 11:56:38 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

I wasn't referring to selling their property. I meant a story run. My Jak and Daxter run would be a story run cause you can see almost all the cutscenes...it begs the question, what makes a person want to buy the game if they can just see the whole game in a speedrun?

Of course, it could have a completely reverse affect...whenever I watch a speedrun of a game I already own it makes me want to play it more.

A game like Metroid Prime that...for lack of a better term...is butchered, would be different...since there are so many things that can be skipped and whatnot that a person who watches it would probably get confused if s/he doesn't own the game already or doesn't understand the concept of sequence-breaking. (I actually liked 'butchered' cause the game is literally chopped to pieces and gone through with a fine-toothed comb)

I don't know what the future holds for things like these since speedruns are still relatively new. I'm just wondering about things.

alexpenev

2005-07-18 07:55:12 am

Quote:

I wasn't referring to selling their property. I meant a story run. What makes a person want to buy the game if they can just see the whole game in a speedrun?

You could say the same thing about reading a bunch of FAQs, reviews, and seeing the images and movie samples (e.g. IGN). That's hardly illegal. I think the only grey area with any justifiability for argument is music; it's distributed in media form, since it comes packaged with the run.

Anyway, I agree with TSA that game distributors can't do anything to you. Actually, they should feel proud that some people can be so dedicated to one of their games.
But I think TSA should wait until the official release date, rather than publish his works early. We can wait 3 days before watching his run, right? Plus most of us won't watch it until we've beaten the game ourselves anyway, so there is no reason for him to post something before release except bragging rights ("haha, I got the game before you, nyaa nyaa").

Mkt2015

2005-07-18 10:24:35 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Quote:

You could say the same thing about reading a bunch of FAQs, reviews, and seeing the images and movie samples (e.g. IGN). That's hardly illegal. I think the only grey area with any justifiability for argument is music; it's distributed in media form, since it comes packaged with the run.

That's like saying you've seen a movie if you've only seen the trailer. I don't mean to pick a fight, but seriously, would companies actually like story runs...where the person who watches it doesn't even need to go out and buy/rent the game? I don't mean images or small clips, but a video showing from start to finish the story of a game.

Since Harry Potter 6 just came out I'll use it as an example. Would J.K.Rowling like it if someone taped themselves reading the entire book and then distributing that on the internet? You would be hearing someone read a book just like watching a speed run is watching someone play a game.

BTW, I was thinking this morning about an idea I had had several years back. I know this might sound strange and/or dilusional, but way back when I thought of starting my own business. Instead of strategy guides it was going to be video walkthroughs, but in my head I ran into a few problems. 1) the people who I hired to record the games would have to be exceptional good and good at certain games without only a limited time considering that strategy guides come out at about the same time as the games do and 2) the videos would have to be near perfection with as few errors as possible. Even though I'm no entreprenuer, I gave up the idea as soon as the 'Others' section had been made.

[quote]You could say the same thing about reading a bunch of FAQs, reviews, and seeing the images and movie samples (e.g. IGN). That's hardly illegal. I think the only grey area with any justifiability for argument is music; it's distributed in media form, since it comes packaged with the run.[/quote]

That's like saying you've seen a movie if you've only seen the trailer. I don't mean to pick a fight, but seriously, would companies actually like story runs...where the person who watches it doesn't even need to go out and buy/rent the game? I don't mean images or small clips, but a video showing from start to finish the story of a game.

Since Harry Potter 6 just came out I'll use it as an example. Would J.K.Rowling like it if someone taped themselves reading the entire book and then distributing that on the internet? You would be hearing someone read a book just like watching a speed run is watching someone play a game.

BTW, I was thinking this morning about an idea I had had several years back. I know this might sound strange and/or dilusional, but way back when I thought of starting my own business. Instead of strategy guides it was going to be video walkthroughs, but in my head I ran into a few problems. 1) the people who I hired to record the games would have to be exceptional good and good at certain games without only a limited time considering that strategy guides come out at about the same time as the games do and 2) the videos would have to be near perfection with as few errors as possible. Even though I'm no entreprenuer, I gave up the idea as soon as the 'Others' section had been made.

Lag.Com

2005-07-18 11:10:49 am

sda loyalist

Mm, copyright law is a fairly weird thing. Even if I watch a plot run of a game, that is nothing like playing it, agreed? I wouldn't think "I may as well not play this game now" unless there was nothing to the game APART from the plot.
And then it would be a bad game, so I wouldn't want to play it anyway.

Um, yeah. I agree with soteos so far; although some kind of 'infringement' has been made, it is not yet serious enough to threaten anything. Maybe some sort of representitive email requesting that the authors be credited correctly. Smiley

soteos

2005-07-19 04:20:38 am

I've been up to nefarious things...
http://forums.g4tv.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=442323&STARTPAGE=1

p01ar is the associate producer of Cinematech

Cygnus

2005-07-19 04:40:29 am

Ben Goldberg

That's cool, but maybe you don't want to demand that he credit the authors of the speed runs, but just ask him. He seems like a nice guy, to not lock the topic and all.

soteos

2005-07-19 05:21:17 am

There, I made it "nicer" and not demanding or whatever. Yeah, it must be hard to stay a nice moderator with forum topics like "Does anyone like cinematech?" "This show blows..." and "Fudging gay cinamatech" where people actually respond with similar comments.

Radix

2005-07-23 03:09:41 am

I'm addicted to games

Looks like they're planning it again: http://www.g4tv.com/cinematech/episodes/4301/Speeding_Along.html

Trevor

2005-07-23 03:20:24 am

they better give credit now. if they continue to fail doing so, despite knowing that we have a problem with it, then I'm going to be really pissed. it's like, damn, if you present a run to the public then this is the kind of crap you might have to put up with. I've seen similiar with artists who display their work on the internet and get ripped off by people on other sites claiming it as their own.... leading them to consider "hiding their signature" in the artwork or some shit. WTF. yeah, it's a little late for me but the thought of that just makes me mad...

transience

2005-07-24 01:58:26 am

trust the fungus

they should at least have an SDA link associated with it. I've not seen these on TV, but I'm assuming they just play it and don't mention the site or the author at all?

alexpenev

2005-07-24 02:19:06 am

I assume that a speedrun is copyrighted. Radix, do you have some statement on this site saying that "all runs are copyright their respective authors blah blah all rights reserved blah blah. Runs listed on this site are used with permission from the author, and must not be commerically redistributed without consent blah blah".

Maybe a little thing like this can make some difference, ust to make things explicitly clear (if it isn't already). Because if they bypass that (essentially, the "consent" business), then it's doubly-wrong.

We'll be millionaires! (they're rich, right?) Roll Eyes

bushwacker

2005-07-24 04:09:32 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Haha I like how soteos said to show Super Mario 64 70 stars in an hour Smiley

naughty_hanyou

2005-07-24 04:09:48 am

I still think that since we didn't make the game, we don't really own the copyright or anything. BUT, they should still mention that they got it from SDA.

Radix

2005-07-24 04:14:51 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

I still think that since we didn't make the game, we don't really own the copyright or anything.

Does the inventor of baseball own the copyright on every conceivable recording of every conceivable baseball game possible in the universe? I doubt it.

So why should a game company own the copyright on every conceivable image sequence from a game they created.

Quote:

I assume that a speedrun is copyrighted. Radix, do you have some statement on this site saying that "all runs are copyright their respective authors blah blah all rights reserved blah blah. Runs listed on this site are used with permission from the author, and must not be commerically redistributed without consent blah blah".

No, because I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know any. I could write such a page, but without having some actual legal advice (spanning how many possible countries?) it could just get laughed at.

-Suzaku-

2005-07-24 04:20:45 am

Eternal Understudy

Quote:

Does the inventor of baseball own the copyright on every conceivable recording of every conceivable baseball game possible in the universe? I doubt it.

So why should a game company own the copyright on every conceivable image sequence from a game they created.

Completely agree with you, Radix. To use a more current example, would Adobe own the rights to the work of an artist if they used Photoshop? No, so I don't think that the game companies own the Speedruns. They deserve credit, though

whacko_jacko

Edit history:

whacko_jacko: 2005-07-24 07:33:36 pm

2005-07-24 07:33:05 pm

Well, in any runs that have a significant amount of downtime, the runner should simply write something with a gun or something on the wall so theres no way to not give credit, sorta like hiding your signature in artwork so it cant get ripped off ;). Of course, seeing as they edit the runs they put on the show, that could be just edited out, but id say its really no big deal, and i thought they did say to check out SDA on one of them, in which case they kinda sorta slightly in a way gave credit to the place where the runner hosted the run that they may or may not have rights to.... I guess thats close enough, right? Roll Eyes

Mkt2015

2005-07-25 10:10:29 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Quote:

Does the inventor of baseball own the copyright on every conceivable recording of every conceivable baseball game possible in the universe? I doubt it.

Very true, but the inventor of baseball only made up the rules. A game like Madden 200# is completed created by the company. It's true that they had to take the names and likenesses of teams and players and add them all to the game, but somebody had to create the models and apply the textures.

In a way, the people who make the games are simply making worlds and that we only make movies within said worlds.

I think speedrunners should have rights to their runs. My only question was on story runs. Of course any company who makes a game that doesn't allow you to skip cutscenes/cinemas/cgi should be slapped. Lol. I can just see some law suit where a speedrun made the sales of a game go down and the argument would be "Well, the game doesn't let me skip cutscenes."