Speedruns on TV

Edit history:

Cygnus: 2005-12-10 01:40:01 am

2005-12-10 01:39:04 am

Ben Goldberg

I can't believe this. They'll show speed runs without giving credit, but we ask for a five second bit of credit, and they decide to stop showing speed runs. Man, they sure do have a super ego. Who knew a few words on a message board could have that big of an impact, though?

darkwasabi

2005-12-10 01:47:14 am

King of hearts

Quote:

So how come they ignored it when Adam posted?

They didn't understand how much of a problem this was.

I was really pissed too, all this time just ignoring people and stuff. But now what has it gotten us?

We need to let them know this is a big problem, but at the same time not piss them off. I know how I was pissing you off when I was almost demanding the FFVIII run with the Omega part. When I realized how much of an idiot I was I was sad thinking the run would never be up. So I tried to come up with an argument that wouldn't seem like I demand it, so you can understand my side of the story. At the same time I didn't know about your whole situation... So I seemed like a total ass.

Radix

2005-12-10 02:15:13 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

But now what has it gotten us?

I'd rather they air nothing than the shit they were airing.

darkwasabi

2005-12-10 02:53:18 am

King of hearts

Quote:

I'd rather they air nothing than the shit they were airing.

Well, I was just... yeah, I hate G4. They destroyed TechTV and everything it was about for money. They also make a profit out of this and the runners get shit. They whore themselves by getting good looking women, and playing anime with fan service.

I can go on and on about how much it sucks because I hated G4 for so long now. I used to think about the fame it brought to the speed run community but it isn't really worth it.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2005-12-10 06:49:11 am

2005-12-10 06:48:31 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

G4TV currently blows and their entire "line-up" is derived from other sources and editorially lacking commercials [what they call "product reviewing"]. In either case, we weren't helping anything by utterly lynching them for airing the unauthorized videos without consent. The speedruns, really, were the only bastions of quality to be found on the channel, and now they are gone. G4TV is temporarily the corporate "fast food" for video gamers, but I imagine that it will someday rise to a respectable form.

In any case, right now I believe we should cordially petition and maybe even partly apologize [for attacking, not for requesting] so that they might resume the speedrun broadcasting under the just condition that they distribute proper credit. Obviously, the guy's policies are not set in stone, or anything... I'm sure another 180 is in the cards if we work for it...

RandomEngy

2005-12-10 06:50:05 am

A Crab

Was poking around on the official copyright site and came across this:

Quote:

Make sure your work is a performing arts work. Performing arts works are intended to be “performed” directly before an audience or indirectly “by means of any device or process.”

It sounds like you could classify a speedrun as a recorded performance, in a game (the device or process).

Gibbatizer

2005-12-10 06:52:01 am

I classify speed running as an art form Grin

Arrow

2005-12-10 07:01:59 am

Now a hit show on the CW

While I definitely think it was asinine of G4 to show speed runs without the creators' consent or even crediting them, I believe that the moderator that replied was correct in saying that technically it isn't our property to begin with. I mean, if you recorded an episode of your favorite TV show, that recording isn't suddenly copyrighted by you. Although, how does IGN and other gaming sites get away with watermarking "exclusive" game footage and screenshots and claiming it as theirs? I don't see that as any different...

At any rate, I'm just surprised that despite the moderator's point, he then said they wouldn't be showing any more speed runs. If it was so popular, it seems like it would be in their best interest to make the small changes to appease the original run creators. I don't think very many runners from this site would flat out refuse G4 permission to show the videos. I think most of us, if asked and credited, would be happy to allow our videos to be shown since the whole reason we created them in the first place was so people could watch them and be entertained. It would give us our 15 minutes of fame, and some free publicity to SDA. It's almost as if they really don't want to have to credit us, for whatever reason. Maybe because they hate admiting that they have no original (and good) content? Who knows... do people actually watch G4? I don't.

While I definitely think it was asinine of G4 to show speed runs without the creators' consent or even crediting them, I believe that the moderator that replied was correct in saying that technically it isn't our property to begin with. I mean, if you recorded an episode of your favorite TV show, that recording isn't suddenly copyrighted by you. Although, how does IGN and other gaming sites get away with watermarking "exclusive" game footage and screenshots and claiming it as theirs? I don't see that as any different...

At any rate, I'm just surprised that despite the moderator's point, he then said they wouldn't be showing any more speed runs. If it was so popular, it seems like it would be in their best interest to make the small changes to appease the original run creators. I don't think very many runners from this site would flat out refuse G4 permission to show the videos. I think most of us, if asked and credited, would be happy to allow our videos to be shown since the whole reason we created them in the first place was so people could watch them and be entertained. It would give us our 15 minutes of fame, and some free publicity to SDA. It's almost as if they really don't want to have to credit us, for whatever reason. Maybe because they hate admiting that they have no original (and good) content? Who knows... do people actually watch G4? I don't.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2005-12-10 07:35:32 am

2005-12-10 07:08:27 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

You know, the day that television devotes like a dozen channels to each topic of popculture will be interesting. Imagine a speedrun channel....

There are already quite enough runs to keep a channel running for well over a couple of days, I believe, and were a channel to actually hit the television airwaves that was specifically catered to gamers of the running variety, I doubt we would need to worry about accumulating more.

Other than continuous speedrunning, there could be blooper shows, top 10's, tournaments (with heavyweights over 4 hours, middleweights over 2 hours, light weights over 1/2 hour, and feather weights below 1/2) where viewers voted on their favorites ala the unscrupulous American Idol, upcoming previews, training spotlights, viewer feedbacks and submissions, and who knows what else...

EDIT: Imagine, if you will, an apartment with nine men all pushed to the limit, fighting to survive... attempting to make the BEST speedrun of them all.... I give you, "Speedrun to Hell." Watch as Uyama unplugs Marshmallow's VCR during the Sephiroth battle; watch as Snapdragon partially strangles Moody during the loading screens for Resident Evil 5; watch as Radix can't get any sleep from their infernal racket... Who will make the best speedrun? Who's run will be eliminated? Who will go home in a bodybag?
Find out Tuesdays at ten.

Well, as an effort to keep this absurdly ridiculous post related to the rest: This is what G4TV should be like; none of this plagiarist-esque scavenging crap!

You know, the day that television devotes like a dozen channels to each topic of popculture will be interesting.  Imagine a speedrun channel....

There are already quite enough runs to keep a channel running for well over a couple of days, I believe, and were a channel to actually hit the television airwaves that was specifically catered to gamers of the running variety, I doubt we would need to worry about accumulating more.

Other than continuous speedrunning, there could be blooper shows, top 10's, tournaments (with heavyweights over 4 hours, middleweights over 2 hours, light weights over 1/2 hour, and feather weights below 1/2) where viewers voted on their favorites ala the unscrupulous American Idol, upcoming previews, training spotlights, viewer feedbacks and submissions, and who knows what else...

EDIT: Imagine, if you will, an apartment with nine men all pushed to the limit, fighting to survive... attempting to make the BEST speedrun of them all....  I give you, "Speedrun to Hell."  Watch as Uyama unplugs Marshmallow's VCR during the Sephiroth battle; watch as Snapdragon partially strangles Moody during the loading screens for Resident Evil 5; watch as Radix can't get any sleep from their infernal racket... Who will make the best speedrun?  Who's run will be [b]eliminated[/b]?  Who will go home in a bodybag?  
Find out Tuesdays at ten.

Well, as an effort to keep this absurdly ridiculous post related to the rest: This is what G4TV should be like; none of this plagiarist-esque scavenging crap!

Radix

2005-12-10 07:11:25 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

I mean, if you recorded an episode of your favorite TV show, that recording isn't suddenly copyrighted by you.

You also had nothing to do with the creation of that video, beyond hitting 'record' on the vcr. With a game you're clearly involved in the creation of the video.

Quote:

Although, how does IGN and other gaming sites get away with watermarking "exclusive" game footage and screenshots and claiming it as theirs? I don't see that as any different...

It isn't.

darkwasabi

2005-12-10 07:11:38 am

King of hearts

Quote:

G4TV is temporarily the corporate "fast food" for video gamers, but I imagine that it will someday rise to a respectable form.

If you think it's going to get better, you're wrong. G4 has done nothing but sell out more and more with time. It's doing the exact same thing MTV did, but much quicker. First MTV was all music, then slowly turned into a "reality show" channel.

If Fast Lane and The Man Show isn't enough to prove that, then I don't know what to say.

Gibbatizer

2005-12-10 07:11:48 am

And if it runs out of speed demos to show, we could team up with some other people from around the place and start showing high scores and stuff...

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2005-12-10 07:33:58 am

2005-12-10 07:19:10 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote:

If you think it's going to get better, you're wrong. G4 has done nothing but sell out more and more with time. It's doing the exact same thing MTV did, but much quicker. First MTV was all music, then slowly turned into a "reality show" channel.

If Fast Lane and The Man Show isn't enough to prove that, then I don't know what to say.

Fair point, but the difference is that G4TV never had any quality. I believe that they will invest, at least to some degree, in better programming as soon as some competition arises. Granted, you're pretty much unassailable about MTV, but I believe MTV really has a different audience than dedicated music lovers [which is probably their intention], and it will not receive any of my attention, anyway, now and especially as soon as enough TV channels emerge to provide a more studious alternative to it. Besides, despite how commercial it is, MTV does have at least something, or at sometime did, that allowed it to become as popular as it is, now. Comedy Central, on the other hand, is still finding its niche, but its growing as it assimilates more quality shows. Only time will tell how video gaming television will act...

EDIT: To post below: Actually, Comedy Central is my favorite channel, but they need to stop playing MadTV and all of those C-rate movies. They're definitely getting there, but they still could use some improvement. More standup!

[quote]

If you think it's going to get better, you're wrong.  G4 has done nothing but sell out more and more with time.  It's doing the exact same thing MTV did, but much quicker.  First MTV was all music, then slowly turned into a "reality show" channel.

If Fast Lane and The Man Show isn't enough to prove that, then I don't know what to say.[/quote]

Fair point, but the difference is that G4TV [i]never[/i] had any quality.  I believe that they will invest, at least to some degree, in better programming as soon as some competition arises.  Granted, you're pretty much unassailable about MTV, but I believe MTV really has a different audience than dedicated music lovers [which is probably their intention], and it will not receive any of [i]my[/i] attention, anyway, now and especially as soon as enough TV channels emerge to provide a more studious alternative to it.  Besides, despite how commercial it is, MTV does have at least something, or at sometime did, that allowed it to become as popular as it is, now. Comedy Central, on the other hand, is still finding its niche, but its growing as it assimilates more quality shows.   Only time will tell how video gaming television will act...

EDIT: To post below: Actually, Comedy Central is my favorite channel, but they need to stop playing MadTV and all of those C-rate movies.  They're definitely getting there, but they still could use some improvement.  More standup!

soteos

Edit history:

soteos: 2005-12-10 07:30:57 am

2005-12-10 07:29:17 am

I'm getting befuddled by this copyright stuff, because there is no such law concerning speedruns. But, I bet we could piece one together by using examples of other copyrighted stuff. It would help to have a defense based off of other examples.
So what other stuff out there is copyrighted? Stuff like paintings, which don't belong to the paper company. Or photos, which don't belong to Polaroid, etc.

Edit: Comedy Central is still finding its niche? Show me where it's doing any worse than MTV.

Gibbatizer

2005-12-10 07:33:25 am

And what's the deal with bands being able to record a song for there album which is a complete cover? EG: Alien Ant Farm, Limp Bizkit

DK64_MASTER

2005-12-10 07:37:12 am

This whole watermark business got we wondering...

In every single one of Bisqwit's movies, they have the splash screen, warning you that the run is tool assisted, and gives the author name, rerecord count, and the site itself.

Maybe we could do that for SDA. But it would be an extreme amount of work to retag every run. So it's maybe an idea for future runs? If it's too time consuming for Nate to do, then forget it.

No response to my PM yet...

Sir VG

2005-12-10 07:42:33 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

And what's the deal with bands being able to record a song for there album which is a complete cover? EG: Alien Ant Farm, Limp Bizkit

I'm sure it's probably somewhere in the parody laws that something like that is allowed.

It's interesting that G4Hecubus responded to me, then turned around and closed the thread. Is he afraid of the stuff I learned in my media productions class? Is he afraid that I might prove him WRONG?!

I was hoping to direct this to the professor I mentioned, but apparantly she is no longer at BVU.

Yes, the game is copyrighted by Konami/Nintendo/etc. However, we're "creating" something which gives us rights to what we've created. We have rights to the video that we get credit. We just can't make money on it. It's a similiar issue to fanfics. Book companies can't get involved with them since the fanfic writer doesn't own the copyright to the characters and such.

So the short is yes, we don't have copyright to the game, but we do the video for non-profit purposes. G4 is in the wrong and if they were in a media or English class, would get an F in the class and possibly expelled for plagurism. Yes, colleges do expel people for plagurism (not that I know personally. I was smart and cited my sources!).

[quote]And what's the deal with bands being able to record a song for there album which is a complete cover? EG: Alien Ant Farm, Limp Bizkit[/quote]

I'm sure it's probably somewhere in the parody laws that something like that is allowed.

It's interesting that G4Hecubus responded to me, then turned around and closed the thread.  Is he afraid of the stuff I learned in my media productions class?  Is he afraid that I might prove him WRONG?!

I was hoping to direct this to the professor I mentioned, but apparantly she is no longer at BVU.

Yes, the game is copyrighted by Konami/Nintendo/etc.  However, we're "creating" something which gives us rights to what we've created.  We have rights to the video that we get credit.  We just can't make money on it.  It's a similiar issue to fanfics.  Book companies can't get involved with them since the fanfic writer doesn't own the copyright to the characters and such.

So the short is yes, we don't have copyright to the game, but we do the video for non-profit purposes.  G4 is in the wrong and if they were in a media or English class, would get an F in the class and possibly expelled for plagurism.  Yes, colleges do expel people for plagurism (not that I know personally.  I was smart and cited my sources!).

marshmallow

2005-12-10 07:49:46 am

Jack of all Trades

I have a little title screen on some of my runs. Banjo Kazooie, at least.

Radix

2005-12-10 07:51:39 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

In every single one of Bisqwit's movies, they have the splash screen, warning you that the run is tool assisted, and gives the author name, rerecord count, and the site itself.

That does nothing to stop someone from displaying the rest of the video.

darkwasabi

2005-12-10 07:51:39 am

King of hearts

Ok, let's say that the runs from now on would be copyrighted. Citing the site and authors still wouldn't be enough anyway because G4 is still making a profit, while the site and authors get nothing.

Sir VG

2005-12-10 08:25:33 am

Fucking Weeaboo

I was thinking a little more on this and I thought of this.

Let's take a look at X-Play (the only decent show left on the station). X-Play is nothing by videos and reviews of various games, none of which Adam or Morgan created. Yet at the end of every show, THERE IS A COPYRIGHT.

Speedruns and reviews work with copyright in the same way. By creating such, we do not claim that we made the game, but instead are creating something of entertainment/learning/whatever value. By using such material, whether written or visual, a fee doesn't need to be paid, but the source needs to be cited, else it's plagurism.

It's nice that they put up the link in the locked topic in that forum, but they need to remember what I've stated in this post if they ever decide to stop being asswipes and start showing speedruns again.

Cite your sources! (We do so. It's called DISPLAYING THE CREDITS. Well, we might stretch things on the single level runs, but we display title screens on the page which can cover the same ground.)

I was thinking a little more on this and I thought of this.

Let's take a look at X-Play (the only decent show left on the station).  X-Play is nothing by videos and reviews of various games, none of which Adam or Morgan created.  Yet at the end of every show, THERE IS A COPYRIGHT.

Speedruns and reviews work with copyright in the same way.  By creating such, we do not claim that we made the game, but instead are creating something of entertainment/learning/whatever value.  By using such material, whether written or visual, a fee doesn't need to be paid, but the source needs to be cited, else it's plagurism.

It's nice that they put up the link in the locked topic in that forum, but they need to remember what I've stated in this post if they ever decide to stop being asswipes and start showing speedruns again.

Cite your sources!  (We do so.  It's called DISPLAYING THE CREDITS.  Well, we might stretch things on the single level runs, but we display title screens on the page which can cover the same ground.)

DK64_MASTER

2005-12-10 08:32:43 am

Quote:

That does nothing to stop someone from displaying the rest of the video.

But at least there's substantial proof that it belongs to someone, like a form of ID. Right now, if I was to get the video of a random site, I wouldn't know anything about it.

Arrow

2005-12-10 09:33:48 am

Now a hit show on the CW

Quote:

It's interesting that G4Hecubus responded to me, then turned around and closed the thread. Is he afraid of the stuff I learned in my media productions class? Is he afraid that I might prove him WRONG?!

I really don't think that's what he's afraid of, it's probably more that from his perspective he sees tempers starting to flare and just wants to avoid it turning into a flame war. Please don't take this the wrong way... I don't mean this to sound as offensive as it probably will, but the fact that you don't even spell plagiarism correctly probably discredits your opinions in his eyes.

Sir VG

Edit history:

Sir VG: 2005-12-10 10:27:48 am

2005-12-10 10:26:21 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

I really don't think that's what he's afraid of, it's probably more that from his perspective he sees tempers starting to flare and just wants to avoid it turning into a flame war. Please don't take this the wrong way... I don't mean this to sound as offensive as it probably will, but the fact that you don't even spell plagiarism correctly probably discredits your opinions in his eyes.

Oh no. I misspelled a fucking word. OH NO THE WORLD IS GONNA COME TO AN END. :wave-finger:

Get over yourself. First off, he didn't make any mention of it or "discredit" me because of it. Everybody makes spelling mistakes. Now if I was filling up a post full of l33tspeak or AOL Talk, that's one thing.

Quote:

U LSRS Y U H8 SPEDRNRS?! GVE US CRDT!

That would be one thing. However he's claiming that it was perfectly ok to take somebody else's "report" show it off like they made it, and not credit where they got it from and that is what's wrong. And then to turn around and claim that our "report" isn't our property so it isn't plagiarism is wrong by definition.

Quote:

plagiarism

n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own

[quote]
I really don't think that's what he's afraid of, it's probably more that from his perspective he sees tempers starting to flare and just wants to avoid it turning into a flame war. Please don't take this the wrong way... I don't mean this to sound as offensive as it probably will, but the fact that you don't even spell plagiarism correctly probably discredits your opinions in his eyes.[/quote]

Oh no.  I misspelled a fucking word.  OH NO THE WORLD IS GONNA COME TO AN END.  :wave-finger:

Get over yourself.  First off, he didn't make any mention of it or "discredit" me because of it.  Everybody makes spelling mistakes.  Now if I was filling up a post full of l33tspeak or AOL Talk, that's one thing.

[quote]U LSRS Y U H8 SPEDRNRS?!  GVE US CRDT![/quote]

That would be one thing.  However he's claiming that it was perfectly ok to take somebody else's "report" show it off like they made it, and not credit where they got it from and that is what's wrong.  And then to turn around and claim that our "report" isn't our property so it isn't plagiarism is wrong by definition.

[quote]plagiarism

n 1: a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work 2: the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own [/quote]

Mkt2015

2005-12-10 11:06:11 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

I think Radix said it perfectly. While we do not own the copyright of the game (we didn't make it), we do have ownership over the video. The difference for recording a show on tv is that we aren't making something different. It's only a copy of the show...but each speedrun is different. This is simple logic.