Speedrunner Roundtable July 10 at 9 PM EDT [locked]

2013-07-10 11:09:55 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

First off, I think we've heard enough about the contributing games vs. behind the scenes work argument. It's not going to be settled because it's a subjective argument based on opinions more than facts.

Playing games and behind the scenes work are both valuable contributions to the marathon, even if people judge the two differently, and it's not worth disparaging one or the other.

Just want to answer one of the points parax made about a second stream. Yes, this is something we should likely include in the future, but I don't know if we're quite the size where we can incorporate a second stream at this point. For now, I think the understream fills this niche decently, and maybe even better, because I wouldn't be meddling in it. Tongue

Golden

Edit history:

Golden: 2013-07-10 12:05:02 pm

Golden: 2013-07-10 11:56:32 am

2013-07-10 11:47:11 am

Voice

If I could chime in for a second on the "second stream" idea: I think a main reason for doing this is that people would like some means to watch their old runs without the donation commentary, or with a larger game screen/no webcam, etc. So it would be cool to have a second recording of every run where you potentially have a larger game screen (perhaps even omitting the webcam or reducing its real estate on the layout), the couch/runner commentary, or perhaps even no commentary at all and just use the game audio? In that sense, it might not even have to be a 2nd stream if that would be too much of a bandwidth concern; it could just be a 2nd machine local recording the gameplay for upload later. I feel that the speedrunners themselves benefit the most from the 2nd stream idea (i.e. it wouldn't be something we would market to stream viewers per se, although it could be). I think it would be worth discussing this just to see what people most want out of it. I guess I don't really have a stance for or against it, but I'm curious what people will say.

Edit: Realized my point has nothing to do with a 2nd stream, but it's still something to consider perhaps. I do like that idea of an alternate stream, there's always something going on in one of the side rooms.

If I could chime in for a second on the "second stream" idea: I think a main reason for doing this is that people would like some means to watch their old runs without the donation commentary, or with a larger game screen/no webcam, etc. So it would be cool to have a second recording of every run where you potentially have a larger game screen (perhaps even omitting the webcam or reducing its real estate on the layout), the couch/runner commentary, or perhaps even no commentary at all and just use the game audio? In that sense, it might not even have to be a 2nd stream if that would be too much of a bandwidth concern; it could just be a 2nd machine local recording the gameplay for upload later. I feel that the speedrunners themselves benefit the most from the 2nd stream idea (i.e. it wouldn't be something we would market to stream viewers per se, although it could be). I think it would be worth discussing this just to see what people most want out of it. I guess I don't really have a stance for or against it, but I'm curious what people will say.

Edit: Realized my point has nothing to do with a 2nd stream, but it's still something to consider perhaps. I do like that idea of an alternate stream, there's always something going on in one of the side rooms.

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-10 11:54:02 am

Not a walrus

Well, I could already do that with most of the footage given how it's recorded, but I'm not sure there's enough demand for it that the extra encoding time/space would be worth it. All of the videos that have the game audio only track available already do so, so it would just be a matter of the video footage being different.

duckfist

Edit history:

duckfist: 2013-07-10 12:08:57 pm

duckfist: 2013-07-10 11:59:17 am

2013-07-10 11:56:28 am

I just wanted to say a couple of things before the roundtable tonight, which I'm really looking forward to.

As a retrospective comment on threads like this, and perhaps the on forums in general: This is really good stuff. I often see speedrunners and stream viewers mention offhandedly "drama" taking place on this forum over topics like this. To anyone who thinks that as the first thing to come to mind, you're missing the point entirely. Stuff like this is necessary if we want to remain stable as we grow as a community. Addressing common issues through rational inquiry and reasonable discussion is by far the best way to solve problems. Elsewise, the opinions of the popular and influential take hold amongst their cliques, without any communication between the cliques themselves. I think this is because as the community grows, it's harder for each person to make their voice heard in the community as a whole, and instead smaller subcommunities begin to emerge with their own standards and views of how things "should be done". A moderated discussion like in this thread and in the roundtable tonight will (hopefully) help bring some of these subcommunities together to let their voices be heard. I suppose it's not necessary that every speedrunner and speedrunning fan be on the same page, but maybe stuff like this will at least bring to light some of the concerns spread throughout the whole community that were once only stewing amongst smaller subgroups, especially since the 'GDQ events seem to be getting recognized as a reflection of the speedrunning community as a whole (as opposed to, say, only mikwuyma and his CGDQ basement bretheren Tongue

, or, *shudder*, Sig's chat )

tldr this roundtable and this thread are great, and I think the community as a whole would only benefit if something like this happened more often, perhaps between influential figures in SDA, SRL, Ludendi, etc.

To finish up, I just want to echo some of the topics I'd like to hear discussion about tonight, if there is time:

- Second stream a.k.a understream. Backstage stuff is some serious fun at these events, and the general public misses out on most of it. I don't know of a good solution, as pretty much anything requires some coordinated effort and someone stepping up and taking charge. Some random thoughts: A second camera stationed in a practice room that can be switched to in between games. An actual second stream with a schedule for side events. A second stream with no schedule that just shows people having a good time. Minion's cellphone again.

- Donation comments. Yeah, measures were taken to restrict these at AGDQ13, but more and more restrictions will have to be set in place as donation volume increases. What's are ALL the details in handling this? Stricter filtering? Higher donation minimum? On-stream scrolling marquee? Off-stream but on-website donation updates? Ideally, it'd be some solution that would NOT involve simply allocating more and more people onto the donation tracker, and at the same time not cause situations where our Host doesn't have to read donation comments for 10 minutes straight at break-neck pace during a run. Sometimes the commentator and/or runner may hesitate at interrupting the Host, due to stress levels, shyness, whatever. Even during high-volume donation sections, it'd be nice if there were still some natural lulls in the pacing of reading donation comments.

I'll think of more later. See you at the roundtable and keep kicking ass, speedrunners.

I just wanted to say a couple of things before the roundtable tonight, which I'm really looking forward to.

As a retrospective comment on threads like this, and perhaps the on forums in general: This is really good stuff.  I often see speedrunners and stream viewers mention offhandedly "drama" taking place on this forum over topics like this.  To anyone who thinks that as the first thing to come to mind, you're missing the point entirely.  Stuff like this is necessary if we want to remain stable as we grow as a community.  Addressing common issues through rational inquiry and reasonable discussion is by far the best way to solve problems.  Elsewise, the opinions of the popular and influential take hold amongst their cliques, without any communication between the cliques themselves.  I think this is because as the community grows, it's harder for each person to make their voice heard in the community as a whole, and instead smaller subcommunities begin to emerge with their own standards and views of how things "should be done".  A moderated discussion like in this thread and in the roundtable tonight will (hopefully) help bring some of these subcommunities together to let their voices be heard.  I suppose it's not necessary that every speedrunner and speedrunning fan be on the same page, but maybe stuff like this will at least bring to light some of the concerns spread throughout the whole community that were once only stewing amongst smaller subgroups, especially since the 'GDQ events seem to be getting recognized as a reflection of the speedrunning community as a whole (as opposed to, say, only mikwuyma and his CGDQ basement bretheren :P , or, *shudder*, Sig's chat )

tldr this roundtable and this thread are great, and I think the community as a whole would only benefit if something like this happened more often, perhaps between influential figures in SDA, SRL, Ludendi, etc.

To finish up, I just want to echo some of the topics I'd like to hear discussion about tonight, if there is time:

- Second stream a.k.a understream.  Backstage stuff is some serious fun at these events, and the general public misses out on most of it.  I don't know of a good solution, as pretty much anything requires some coordinated effort and someone stepping up and taking charge.  Some random thoughts:  A second camera stationed in a practice room that can be switched to in between games.  An actual second stream with a schedule for side events.  A second stream with no schedule that just shows people having a good time.  Minion's cellphone again.

- Donation comments.  Yeah, measures were taken to restrict these at AGDQ13, but more and more restrictions will have to be set in place as donation volume increases.  What's are ALL the details in handling this?  Stricter filtering?  Higher donation minimum?  On-stream scrolling marquee?  Off-stream but on-website donation updates?  Ideally, it'd be some solution that would NOT involve simply allocating more and more people onto the donation tracker, and at the same time not cause situations where our Host doesn't have to read donation comments for 10 minutes straight at break-neck pace during a run.  Sometimes the commentator and/or runner may hesitate at interrupting the Host, due to stress levels, shyness, whatever.  Even during high-volume donation sections, it'd be nice if there were still some natural lulls in the pacing of reading donation comments.

I'll think of more later.  See you at the roundtable and keep kicking ass, speedrunners.

Kiyura

Edit history:

Kiyura: 2013-07-10 12:10:34 pm

2013-07-10 12:08:41 pm

Wiiaboo

I completely agree with you that open, honest discussion is very healthy for a community, duckfist. The problem is when people just voice negative emotions and don't directly state who or what is the cause, just that "something should be done, you know who you are." That's not healthy at all. Be positive, or if something negative is worth bringing up, say exactly what's wrong about it and preferably offer some reasonable solution.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2013-07-10 01:41:32 pm

2013-07-10 01:38:44 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I think Kiyura said it best, open and honest discussion is good, but shit-slinging and personal attacks are not.

About donation comments: For SGDQ, we can probably get away with roughly similar filtering to AGDQ because I don't think the donation traffic will be as crazy (famous last words), but at the very least (and I'll talk to SMK about this), I'd like a flush button so when we're behind we can just flush out older comments so we can at least keep up to date (even if we can't read the comments). We'll also emphasize that not all comments can be read because there are just too many donations.

For the next AGDQ, we won't be able to read anywhere near all of the comments, so we'll have a donation ticker for the ones we don't read, and read maybe 20-30 max an hour while the host/general commentator focuses on other aspects of commentary such as promoting sda, srl, and the charity, hyping up upcoming games and donation incentives, and helping out a bit with the game commentary (asking basic questions, the history of running the game, etc.)

I think Kiyura said it best, open and honest discussion is good, but shit-slinging and personal attacks are not.

About donation comments: For SGDQ, we can probably get away with roughly similar filtering to AGDQ because I don't think the donation traffic will be as crazy (famous last words), but at the very least (and I'll talk to SMK about this), I'd like a flush button so when we're behind we can just flush out older comments so we can at least keep up to date (even if we can't read the comments). We'll also emphasize that not all comments can be read because there are just too many donations.

For the next AGDQ, we won't be able to read anywhere near all of the comments, so we'll have a donation ticker for the ones we don't read, and read maybe 20-30 max an hour while the host/general commentator focuses on other aspects of commentary such as promoting sda, srl, and the charity, hyping up upcoming games and donation incentives, and helping out a bit with the game commentary (asking basic questions, the history of running the game, etc.)

presjpolk

2013-07-10 01:54:35 pm

HELLO!

That last point is a great one I think. Sometimes there may be things about the game that aren't as obvious as the people who run the game think they are. Having questions thrown in like that would be very helpful.

RoboSparkle

2013-07-10 02:22:02 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Re: The understream - one of the interesting events of AGDQ 2013 was Flicky's mystery speedrun challenge. That had both a number of successes and parts that didn't work as well as we would have thought. (although footbigmike managed to utterly destroy the game far more than we dreamed possible) But one of the ideas that was thrown around as a variation next time is to find a smaller game and challenge teams to come up with the shortest time to beat it in, say, 4 hours and make it one intense competition instead of a casual affair that a number of people (myself included) simply stopped trying pretty quickly due to getting distracted. Broadcasting something like that (see your favourite runners speedrun speedrunning a new game) would be great for an understream!

puwexil

2013-07-10 02:46:53 pm

Professional Second Banana

Quote from Rakuen:

Is it possible a meetups forum could be added with enough demand, like was done with the non-SDA marathons? I think that would be enough to both make people aware and to get the ball rolling on more events.

Or maybe just expand the "Community Marathons" forum to "Community Marathons & Meetups"?

Sonikkustar

2013-07-10 02:48:32 pm

The Loony Bin

Quote from duckfist:

- Second stream a.k.a understream. Backstage stuff is some serious fun at these events, and the general public misses out on most of it. I don't know of a good solution, as pretty much anything requires some coordinated effort and someone stepping up and taking charge. Some random thoughts: A second camera stationed in a practice room that can be switched to in between games. An actual second stream with a schedule for side events. A second stream with no schedule that just shows people having a good time. Minion's cellphone again.

In all honesty, that sounds VERY creepy. I don't know about anyone else, but having a live camera just sitting in the practice room broadcasting our every move just sounds unsettling.

presjpolk

2013-07-10 03:21:38 pm

HELLO!

At AGDQ we had the 'quiet room'/on deck area, that was held to a different standard of behavior.

Sticking a camera in there, and saying HEY IF YOU ARE IN THIS PARTITIONED AREA YOU ARE ON CAMERA with a sign, whatever... that could work.

mikwuyma

2013-07-10 03:37:45 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from puwexil:

Quote from Rakuen:

Is it possible a meetups forum could be added with enough demand, like was done with the non-SDA marathons? I think that would be enough to both make people aware and to get the ball rolling on more events.

Or maybe just expand the "Community Marathons" forum to "Community Marathons & Meetups"?

I think this is best. Going to rename the forum right now.

duckfist

2013-07-10 03:57:11 pm

Quote from Sonikkustar:

In all honesty, that sounds VERY creepy. I don't know about anyone else, but having a live camera just sitting in the practice room broadcasting our every move just sounds unsettling.

Didn't expect that one - I'm not creeped out in the slightest. While that was more of an AGDQ idea, how is it so much different than the live stream of the marathon room? I'm picturing EVO or MLG streams with the nice multiple camera angle setups, I suppose. I think events capture social interaction like this to convey the excitement of the event and generate hype. I guess it was a bad idea, but in coming to these events you should expect to be seen by the public to some extent.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-07-10 04:27:42 pm

Learning to Stream

Second stream area could DEFINITELY be interesting.

.... oh snap-a-doodle... a special SECONDARY room setup... and we can have a "Big Brother" like event as a side amusement. We can do some random amusement things and "Donation incentives" or "Donate to Vote". Just something totally silly.

Maybe make it so whoever wins gets to do some silly challenge like the 2 Gamers, 1 Controller Die Hard run?

... yeah.. and it's gone like that. But it was a definitely interesting thing. Could be totally scripted or improv style. Total lark to segue to during game changes in the stream. I dunno.

Poxnor

2013-07-10 04:30:51 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I think if there were a camera on the practice area, it would also be good to set aside a second mini-practice area with no camera. That way, if someone's feeling really nervous before their run, and just needs to get "in the zone" a bit prior to playing, they could always do so without the ever-watchful eye.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-07-10 04:34:56 pm

Learning to Stream

Secondary idea... very HUGE longshot.... if someone happens to be good at ASL [American Sign Language], perhaps a secondary camera area that shows the screen and someone who will sign the commentary and stuff from people? Obviously censoring things.

I mean just because you're deaf, doesn't mean you don't play games! I think that is potentially an entire audience that would feel even more welcome into the marathon fray knowing they can now follow along with everyone else there and learn the insights of runners.

Sure someone can say a lot of deaf people can lip read... but still.

kirbymastah

2013-07-10 04:38:16 pm

<(^_^)>

I personally would not want a camera to track every little thing I do in a practice room. That being said, it's not too big of a deal if there are practice rooms without cameras, so I'm fine with that regardless and it's not like we're only gonna have one practice room, hopefully =x

droogie

2013-07-10 04:38:40 pm

hello, world!

Are you guys sure the network is going to be able to handle all of these new additions and streams? It's barely been able to manage one over the last couple of years

ProfessorBroman

Edit history:

ProfessorBroman: 2013-07-10 04:55:53 pm

2013-07-10 04:55:26 pm

Quote from Mr. Kelly R. Flewin:

Secondary idea... very HUGE longshot.... if someone happens to be good at ASL [American Sign Language], perhaps a secondary camera area that shows the screen and someone who will sign the commentary and stuff from people? Obviously censoring things.

I mean just because you're deaf, doesn't mean you don't play games! I think that is potentially an entire audience that would feel even more welcome into the marathon fray knowing they can now follow along with everyone else there and learn the insights of runners.

Sure someone can say a lot of deaf people can lip read... but still.

I know that network capacity and everything have limiting factors, but as somebody who worked with people with various forms of disabilities for a large portion of my life I think this would be fantastic. If it couldn't be done on site, perhaps an ASL restream similar to the French restream? Expanding access is always a good idea if possible.

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-10 04:59:25 pm

Not a walrus

I'm having trouble imagining somebody who'd be willing to sit there for 120+ hours, signing all of the room commentary. We'd definitely need several people able to do that.

ProfessorBroman

Edit history:

ProfessorBroman: 2013-07-10 05:05:17 pm

2013-07-10 05:04:56 pm

It would have to be a group of people for sure, another possibility would be having the ASL (or any open access Closed Captioning perhaps...BIG long shot there) happen during peak hours or something similar if there were not enough individuals to take 120+ hours of shifts however they may be divided.

jape

2013-07-10 05:07:56 pm

t-minus 2 hours who's Pumped and ready?

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-10 05:08:03 pm

Not a walrus

As much as I like the idea in principle I'm pretty sure the logistics of arranging that are way, way beyond anything we're capable of right now.

I'd love to be proven wrong on that, mind you.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-07-10 05:09:00 pm

Learning to Stream

Third random idea? Kittens! [Unless people are allergic.] Randomly during game changes... people bring in KITTENS!!! That would so pump up people!

And in regards to the ASL idea.. yeah, would need several volunteers... maybe a local group may be willing to volunteer their time to help out?

Kiyura

2013-07-10 05:09:06 pm

Wiiaboo

Unless someone else has worked with it before and can say otherwise, it looks like any closed captioning service/software worth a damn is very pricey and requires voice training. And can you use ASL or know someone who can? That's the first requirement before we can really consider this. I think a restream would be the best way to handle it if we did have the resources.