Speedrunner Roundtable July 10 at 9 PM EDT [locked]

oasiz

Edit history:

oasiz: 2013-07-08 12:10:59 pm

2013-07-08 12:09:54 pm

Iha paska

What are you talking about ? Cheesy

Just get the A520 dude.
You need one by any chance because I might just have one extra and I can bring it for ESA ?

I would have to disagree with emulation for the most part since a A500 + 512KB trapdoor RAM is quite damn cheap to get and really common.
Pretty much all games run on this.

For AGA/etc.. I will admit that capturing RGB is way harder.

But with the crack / trainer part I would definately agree, just look at any amiga set out there and you will see a box of copied floppies with it. Very few actually bought the games legally (Mailing money across europes wasn't really the most fun option).

We should watch some amiga demos and play some games at ESA, got a floppy writer on my pentium 3 that does 880KB write and about 80~ empty DD floppies.
Could bring some DIRTY WAREZ !

Oh and just import from sweden/denmark/finland if you can't find one in the UK, A500 and C64 was like the NES in here pretty much.

ShadowWraith

2013-07-08 12:16:18 pm

.

I pretty much bought the games I wanted to run off ebay, never got around to finishing the runs though. I should probably get back on that. :[

Molotov

Edit history:

Molotov: 2013-07-08 12:22:10 pm

2013-07-08 12:21:42 pm

Shouldn't this topic have been split a long time ago? It has long since derailed into something else entirely, as far as I can tell.

Also, while I probably shouldn't jump into the path of this trainwreck topic and I'll regret posting immediately, I'd like to say that I agree entirely with Essentia's post. I've always been of the belief that the marathons are primarily SDA meetups that just so happen to make a lot of money for charity. I guess that has changed over the years and holding that view makes me a bad person (I'm half joking there), but eh. Honestly, when it comes to putting the charity first, I don't think people pay enough attention to on-site/on-stream interactions. That's why I got so upset about crude behavior during the last marathon, because it's ridiculous to be all about helping the charity while setting a bad example for the group as a whole.

Quote from Lee:

There's never been any need for it because people are only assholes on the internet.

You're joking, right? I know I'm hyper-sensitive, but interactions seem more passive-aggressive at marathons than anything. My personal favorite was asking a simple question and receiving a sarcastic/condescending remark in return. Partially from a staff member, no less. (This happens regularly enough that if anybody wonders why I never talk to anybody, this is exactly why.) To think that people aren't jerks to others at marathons is just naive. _{And yes, I'm petty enough to remember instances like that.}

But back to the original topic, I really like the idea of Mike setting up a blog for marathon cuts and so on. My concern though is how honest the given reasons will be. I'd love for the reasons to be as brutally honest as possible, because if one of my games gets cut, I'd prefer to hear "Because I don't like this game and it'll never get a marathon slot" over "I'm not sure this is the best choice." So I guess my question for the roundtable (or just Mike) is this: "What level of bluntness will the marathon blog offer?"

Shouldn't this topic have been split a long time ago? It has long since derailed into something else entirely, as far as I can tell.

Also, while I probably shouldn't jump into the path of this trainwreck topic and I'll regret posting immediately, I'd like to say that I agree entirely with Essentia's post. I've always been of the belief that the marathons are primarily SDA meetups that just so happen to make a lot of money for charity. I guess that has changed over the years and holding that view makes me a bad person (I'm half joking there), but eh. Honestly, when it comes to putting the charity first, I don't think people pay enough attention to on-site/on-stream interactions. That's why I got so upset about crude behavior during the last marathon, because it's ridiculous to be all about helping the charity while setting a bad example for the group as a whole.

[quote=Lee]There's never been any need for it because people are only assholes on the internet.[/quote]
You're joking, right? I know I'm hyper-sensitive, but interactions seem more passive-aggressive at marathons than anything. My personal favorite was asking a simple question and receiving a sarcastic/condescending remark in return. Partially from a staff member, no less. (This happens regularly enough that if anybody wonders why I never talk to anybody, this is exactly why.) To think that people aren't jerks to others at marathons is just naive. [sub]And yes, I'm petty enough to remember instances like that.[/sub]

But back to the original topic, I really like the idea of Mike setting up a blog for marathon cuts and so on. My concern though is how honest the given reasons will be. I'd love for the reasons to be as brutally honest as possible, because if one of my games gets cut, I'd prefer to hear "Because I don't like this game and it'll never get a marathon slot" over "I'm not sure this is the best choice." So I guess my question for the roundtable (or just Mike) is this: "What level of bluntness will the marathon blog offer?"

Carcinogen

2013-07-08 12:45:38 pm

Quote from jape:

i love you wes

I won't wrestle with you, but I hope you like whiskey. Smiley

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-08 01:04:21 pm

Not a walrus

This is how I view the marathon events, but don't take my word as gospel or anything just because I have a green name. The primary purpose is to put on a good show and raise money for charity by virtue of putting on a good show. At the same time, though, just because the social aspect is secondary doesn't mean it's secondary by much. I don't have any hard numbers handy but I think at least a third of the people who showed up to the last AGDQ didn't run a game (at least not for the main stream) or even couch commentate. If anything I expect that percentage to grow, not shrink. If that means we have to start getting stricter about off-camera interactions then that's definitely something that should be discussed. I basically spent all of my time at the last AGDQ either in a practice room or in the main room so I didn't see some of the stuff that people have brought up, so I can't fully comment on it directly, but if somebody really was drawing inappropriate things on the easel out in the hallway then you need to grow the fuck up, just as an example.

Josh the Funkdoc

2013-07-08 01:20:58 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

yo darkwing duck, just fyi all my games in SGDQ add up to less than an hour total. i suggested stuff like return of the joker only because i hadn't realized how big this event would be, and initially thought it would be a bit closer to past SGDQs than to AGDQ. no hard feelings tho =)

more on-topic, i do think a game's reception in non-SDA charity events should be considered when deciding for marathons. i've heard people say that you can't judge anything from, say, kings of poverty since that was such a different audience. when we started doing these things i would have agreed, but nowadays i don't buy it - the viewers who've gotten into speedrunning over the past couple years (read: like 90% of the audience) are pretty much all the same people who watch fighting games.

also, i wholeheartedly agree with uyama, rom, et al. on what the goal of these events should be. and on that note (said a bit of this in person before), i think it would be worthwhile to find more games to appeal self-contained fandoms that have their own conventions etc. (the way touhou is). basically, would you consider including fangames for MLP/doctor who/homestuck in AGDQ if there were any remotely runnable ones and people who could run them? i think that would be an interesting test of the "all for the charity" philosophy...

last and most important thought: for now and especially the future, i would *strongly* suggest creating an actual written policy on harassment and such. internet nerd gatherings are notorious for major problems with this, and it's blown up as a huge issue in multiple communities over the past couple years. to name just one prominent example, atheist conferences had to deal with this following an especially notable report of sexual harassment, and the (formerly) largest such conference has suffered a huge drop in attendance and reputation due to its god-awful handling of this issue (e.g. blaming the people REPORTING the harassment for lower turnout, not having a written harassment policy AT ALL this year).

even if it may not seem like the biggest issue now, putting something in place ASAP will only help in the long run, especially as these events continue to grow. unfortunately something WILL happen sooner or later, and not being prepared hurts the victims a great deal (and the event as well!)

yo darkwing duck, just fyi all my games in SGDQ add up to less than an hour total. i suggested stuff like return of the joker only because i hadn't realized how big this event would be, and initially thought it would be a bit closer to past SGDQs than to AGDQ. no hard feelings tho =)

more on-topic, i do think a game's reception in non-SDA charity events should be considered when deciding for marathons. i've heard people say that you can't judge anything from, say, kings of poverty since that was such a different audience. when we started doing these things i would have agreed, but nowadays i don't buy it - the viewers who've gotten into speedrunning over the past couple years (read: like 90% of the audience) are pretty much all the same people who watch fighting games.

also, i wholeheartedly agree with uyama, rom, et al. on what the goal of these events should be. and on that note (said a bit of this in person before), i think it would be worthwhile to find more games to appeal self-contained fandoms that have their own conventions etc. (the way touhou is). basically, would you consider including fangames for MLP/doctor who/homestuck in AGDQ if there were any remotely runnable ones and people who could run them? i think that would be an interesting test of the "all for the charity" philosophy...

last and most important thought: [b]for now and especially the future, i would *strongly* suggest creating an actual written policy on harassment and such[/b]. internet nerd gatherings are notorious for major problems with this, and it's blown up as a huge issue in multiple communities over the past couple years. to name just one prominent example, atheist conferences had to deal with this following an especially notable report of sexual harassment, and the (formerly) largest such conference has suffered a huge drop in attendance and reputation due to its god-awful handling of this issue (e.g. blaming the people REPORTING the harassment for lower turnout, not having a written harassment policy AT ALL this year).

even if it may not seem like the biggest issue now, putting something in place ASAP will only help in the long run, especially as these events continue to grow. unfortunately something WILL happen sooner or later, and not being prepared hurts the victims a great deal (and the event as well!)

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-07-08 01:34:49 pm

2013-07-08 01:34:19 pm

HELLO!

Fair point by Josh. If we're already making everyone sign a document to be let in, then make use of it! Get a policy in place. Make people agree to it.

garik16

2013-07-08 01:35:30 pm

Quote from Lag.Com:

Reading this thread is really starting to hurt... it makes me fully realise just how far I am away from the marathons now.

Going to AGDQ2011 was one of the most important events in my life; it was strange to be among so many like-minded people and be respected. I tried to help Nate out in the tech department but I didn't think that would happen before the time. I just happened to know a little about what was going on and decided to help. It ruined my sleep schedule and I was dead on my feet sometimes, but I wouldn't have swapped the experience for anything.

AGDQ2012 wasn't quite the same; I wasn't "needed" like I was in 2011, but I was still welcome and I got to talk to more people. I said I wanted to help more but was dissuaded from taking the mic so I abandoned that idea. However I did get to be onscreen more this time, because I had more games but also to provide couch commentary. It was starting to become clear that people's contributions to the marathon were being rated... an unnamed person has managed to make quite a name for themselves by being caustic to other speedrunners and outrageous to the stream. For some reason this is a winning formula.

I didn't go to AGDQ2013 partially because of finances but also because of the amount of people who have proven poisonous to other members of the community who were still invited. If I'm not mistaken, there were more issues between attendees than ever this time. However small the ratio is, the fact that it is (apparently) growing is worrying. Moderating the chat was a harder job than ever before, because so many watchers were intent on disrupting proceedings.

I apologise for not mentioning SGDQ events here, my memories of those are more muddled. The only thing I remember being annoyed at is people talking over the PC runs all the time, but that's not a community problem.

SDA has only been growing throughout its entire existence, and the growth sped up dramatically after CGDQ. I'm not trying to oppose this; I just want the growth to be managed. I want larger checks put in place to prevent harassment and bullying, or at the very least shunning those who promote it and trying to prevent people from doing it at marathon events and on stream.

C4L proved that community events can help SDA and I only ever see myself going to these smaller and more intimate gatherings now, at least partially because that way Emily and I won't be the target of as much hatred.

Lag, I have no idea what you've encountered, as I've never been to a marathon. And for all I know you're right that you've tried calling it out in private and nothing has changed.

In that case, stop beating around the bush and name what you are talking about. If people are being such assholes, they don't deserve you being private, and you doing so and staying away only allows them to continue.

I don't get why people in this thread are afraid to voice their concerns. If you are, then what's going to freaking change?

[quote="Lag.Com"]Reading this thread is really starting to hurt... it makes me fully realise just how far I am away from the marathons now.

Going to AGDQ2011 was one of the most important events in my life; it was strange to be among so many like-minded people and be respected. I tried to help Nate out in the tech department but I didn't think that would happen before the time. I just happened to know a little about what was going on and decided to help. It ruined my sleep schedule and I was dead on my feet sometimes, but I wouldn't have swapped the experience for anything.

AGDQ2012 wasn't quite the same; I wasn't "needed" like I was in 2011, but I was still welcome and I got to talk to more people. I said I wanted to help more but was dissuaded from taking the mic so I abandoned that idea. However I did get to be onscreen more this time, because I had more games but also to provide couch commentary. It was starting to become clear that people's contributions to the marathon were being rated... an unnamed person has managed to make quite a name for themselves by being caustic to other speedrunners and outrageous to the stream. For some reason this is a winning formula.

I didn't go to AGDQ2013 partially because of finances but also because of the amount of people who have proven poisonous to other members of the community who were still invited. If I'm not mistaken, there were more issues between attendees than ever this time. However small the ratio is, the fact that it is (apparently) growing is worrying. Moderating the chat was a harder job than ever before, because so many watchers were intent on disrupting proceedings.

I apologise for not mentioning SGDQ events here, my memories of those are more muddled. The only thing I remember being annoyed at is people talking over the PC runs all the time, but that's not a community problem.

SDA has only been growing throughout its entire existence, and the growth sped up dramatically after CGDQ. I'm not trying to oppose this; I just want the growth to be managed. I want larger checks put in place to prevent harassment and bullying, or at the [i]very least[/i] shunning those who promote it and trying to prevent people from doing it [i]at marathon events and on stream[/i].

C4L proved that community events can help SDA and I only ever see myself going to these smaller and more intimate gatherings now, at least partially because that way Emily and I won't be the target of as much hatred.[/quote]

Lag, I have no idea what you've encountered, as I've never been to a marathon.  And for all I know you're right that you've tried calling it out in private and nothing has changed.

In that case, stop beating around the bush and name what you are talking about.  If people are being such assholes, they don't deserve you being private, and you doing so and staying away only allows them to continue.

I don't get why people in this thread are afraid to voice their concerns.  If you are, then what's going to freaking change?

Cool Matty

2013-07-08 02:14:57 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Josh the Funkdoc:

last and most important thought: for now and especially the future, i would *strongly* suggest creating an actual written policy on harassment and such. internet nerd gatherings are notorious for major problems with this, and it's blown up as a huge issue in multiple communities over the past couple years. to name just one prominent example, atheist conferences had to deal with this following an especially notable report of sexual harassment, and the (formerly) largest such conference has suffered a huge drop in attendance and reputation due to its god-awful handling of this issue (e.g. blaming the people REPORTING the harassment for lower turnout, not having a written harassment policy AT ALL this year).

Frankly I think it's a perfectly legitimate request to have a formal policy on harassment and such. Could probably just be added to the rules + to the waiver people sign when they go to our marathons.

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-08 02:17:07 pm

Not a walrus

I'm on board with that. First rule:

1) We aren't your fucking parents.

Only half-kidding. Tongue

Poxnor

2013-07-08 02:20:45 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

100% agree with Cool Matty, 100% disagree with UA (I will explain).

Hopefully, you'll never have to apply the policy. But, having it in place prevents SDA (read: Mike, until there's any sort of legal separation between the event and the main planner) from being culpable in the event of a serious incident.

And UA: sorry, but any flippancy towards such a policy will be used to demonstrate that SDA wasn't serious about enforcing said policy.

I'm 100% with Cool Matty on this one.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2013-07-08 02:29:50 pm

2013-07-08 02:24:00 pm

Not a walrus

Poxnor: I meant it in a "we're all adults here and you're expected to act like one" way, and if you disagree with that then I think we're fundamentally at odds, but that would surprise me.

Let me clarify: I fully support having a well written policy document and enforcement of such. We (as a community) already had to tell at least three people that I know of that they are not welcome at our gatherings, so there has already been some informal enforcement of rules.

Poxnor

2013-07-08 02:37:19 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

UA: I misinterpreted what you wrote to mean, "We're not going to be policing anything at our events; deal with any problems yourself."

I agree with what you wrote in your second post. But, my misunderstanding really highlights the problem with flippancy / sarcasm when it comes to such a touchy issue, I suppose. A well-written policy (devoid of sarcasm Wink

) is probably an important thing to have, if only to cover everyone's ass.

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-08 02:39:33 pm

Not a walrus

That's definitely the farthest thing from the truth when it comes to what I wanted people to take away from that statement, and I thought about clarifying that in my initial post but decided against it, which I realize was a mistake now.

presjpolk

2013-07-08 02:45:35 pm

HELLO!

*Are* we all adults here? I know ESA has at least one or two teenagers... do the GDQs?

Trekhaak

2013-07-08 02:46:35 pm

Everybody's favorite monster

too sexy for this thread.

UraniumAnchor

2013-07-08 02:47:34 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from presjpolk:

*Are* we all adults here? I know ESA has at least one or two teenagers... do the GDQs?

Well, so far the actual minors (at least the ones I'm aware of) have been some of the most well-behaved people there, so close enough.

Onin

2013-07-08 03:37:54 pm

Quote from presjpolk:

*Are* we all adults here? I know ESA has at least one or two teenagers... do the GDQs?

Quote from Trekhaak:

too sexy for this thread.

I found one already. Cheesy

Mitorequiem

2013-07-08 05:33:00 pm

Wazzzaaa

Quote from Edenal:

Something that's been bothering me for quite some time are the constant online marathons with the sole purpose of raising money to a select few runners who wants to attend *GDQ/ESA. And I might be out on thin ice here, but seeing prominent members of the SDA(and SRL/ESA)-staff taking part in these marathons turns it into a popularity contest. The benefactor might be a close friend but that does not change that it's highly questionable from a moral standpoint.
And I for one, would like to see anyone involved in planing or organizing a major on-site marathon not taking part in any kind of fundraiser with a single or a few benefactors.

Edit: I'm thinking a online-marathons like TheMegaMarathon https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApLPxc7ItywhdFZLUFhqbWJHcGF2Yk1iRExCZzk2Znc#gid=2 , and not events like the Shin-Thon II.

Ohhh the call out on our marathon, Well if you want to have a private chat about this I'm always free in IRC under MitoRequiem. Really curious what's your problem with these types of marathons I fail to understand your logic, especially since I was upfront with what the money is being used for. Keep in mind I did start the marathon to help out Wawlconut(A guy I knew nothing about at first).

[quote="Edenal"]Something that's been bothering me for quite some time are the constant online marathons with the sole purpose of raising money to a select few runners who wants to attend *GDQ/ESA. And I might be out on thin ice here, but seeing prominent members of the SDA(and SRL/ESA)-staff taking part in these marathons turns it into a popularity contest. The benefactor might be a close friend but that does not change that it's highly questionable from a moral standpoint. 
And I for one, would like to see anyone involved in planing or organizing a major on-site marathon not taking part in any kind of fundraiser with a single or a few benefactors.

Edit: I'm thinking a online-marathons like TheMegaMarathon [url]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApLPxc7ItywhdFZLUFhqbWJHcGF2Yk1iRExCZzk2Znc#gid=2[/url] , and not events like the Shin-Thon II. [/quote]

Ohhh the call out on our marathon, Well if you want to have a private chat about this I'm always free in IRC under MitoRequiem. Really curious what's your problem with these types of marathons I fail to understand your logic, especially since I was upfront with what the money is being used for. Keep in mind I did start the marathon to help out Wawlconut(A guy I knew nothing about at first).

Poxnor

2013-07-08 06:02:39 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I think so long as people are upfront about exactly where the money from any event is going, then it's perfectly fine. You only hit moral issues, in my (rarely humble) opinion, if there's deception about where the money is going.

Maybe, though, we could help address the concern raised by Edenal in the following way:

Create a thread in the marathon board titled something like "Players Raising Funds to Go to SGDQ 2013." Any player running a mini-thon to raise travel funds to the marathon would post the details in that thread. The first post could even be kept up to date with both past mini-thons and upcoming mini-thons. That way, it sort of levels the playing field for everyone, helping to reduce the "popularity contest" aspect of things?

Would my suggestion help with your concerns, Edenal?

ButtersBB

2013-07-08 07:16:19 pm

Wow... This thread escalated quickly.

Breakdown summed up most of my feelings on the marathon selection issue nicely. That said, I want to briefly touch on a quote that kind of floated by.

Quote from Lenophis:

Let's expand this for a moment. Turn the clock back so you're (the general you) between 8 and 13 years old. You want to play ball with the guys at the park. It's getting to the end selection, and it's just two of you left to be picked for teams. The other kid gets picked, then the "captains" both decide and flatly say to go home. That is how the marathon game selection process has felt to me since it started. I'm not sure how many others here feel that way, but judging by some reactions I'd say I'm not alone here.

SDA tends to be nicer about it, but yeah, it is not much different from that... So what's the problem here?

Let us look deeper into this metaphor. Ok, so I am 11 and was not picked to play basketball. Rather than crying and running home to denounce the injustices of this cruel world, I find myself instead thinking about why this might have occurred. Perhaps these young men have never seen me before and have no basis to judge what my skill level is, so I should advocate for myself and talk about how I have been playing on teams for years, or better yet, show them what I can do. Perhaps I really am just the most un-athletic, so I should hit the gym and level up my game, or join a more organized league or something. If you truly care about this, then you find a way to close the deal.

Speedruning is competitive by nature. We post whatever the fastest submitted time for a game is, and we pick the runners that are the fastest for a suggested marathon game. Put bluntly: This is not an egalitarian process, this is a straight up meritocracy. This is not a bad thing at all. Competition breeds success.

While we are on the topic of sports metaphors: Why do television networks show sports besides football, even though football pulls the highest ratings? Simple: Because different strokes for different folks, and because over saturation would flood the market. The charity marathon would not make more dough by just doing Mario, Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc. because it would get stale, and because it would be missing the boat on a bunch of fans of other games that while collectively smaller than the mainstream hits, might not otherwise be donating.

In regards to the relative importance of non-runners, I refer you to the Snowplow Game of 1982, wherein the Patriots were able to defeat the Dolphins after a snowplow operator cleared a path for the placekicker. Sticking to the basketball theme, if someone dunks too hard and breaks the backboard, someone would need to replace it in order for the game to continue, correct? Our donation tracker broke during the last AGDQ, and we would not have been able to continue if SMK did not quickly create a new one. If anything, he was more important than any runner at that marathon. At the end of the day though... What is the point of arguing levels of importance? You are doing something for a good cause either way. Also, I'm done making sports metaphors for the remainder of this post.

If you don't want to go to a marathon due to not having a game... Alright, cool, your call. I would stress to anyone that has never been to a marathon that there is tons of fun to be had regardless of whether or not you have a game, though.

Now then! I want to touch on the social issues that seem to be cropping up. In my experience, everyone has been really cool. There were a few times that I encountered someone that I initially felt was rude or did not seem to care for me, but I quickly realized that this was simply their nature and personality, and no maliciousness was intended. Molotov, I am not sure what happened to you, but I believe I was one of your roommates, so I hope that I was a model of courtesy towards you. I apologize for the snoring.

I agree with Funkdoc that some hard rules should be established for harassment, just to be safe. UA has the right of it though that the big key is that people just need to act like adults. The majority of "issues" that might crop up are just misunderstandings or personality conflicts that certainly do not require "tattling" to an organizer. As Carcinogen said, people tend to be rather civil if you act with maturity.

You know who else is civil if you act with maturity? Organizers! Yeah, turns out that the head SDA muckity mucks are just regular dudes and not hive-minded dictators that act only on their own whims. I'm not surprised at how they occasionally get painted by stream viewers, but I am kind of startled that I occasionally see runners with this mindset, even at marathons.

I really want to stress the importance of ADVOCACY and BEING AN ADULT. Not just in speedrunning, but in all aspects of life. Now then, with all the controversy that has been spouted off in this thread, it is my turn to lay down some controversy, so strap yourselves in ~~kids~~ responsible adults.

You want to know who the most mature person was at the last AGDQ? The one that best highlights how to behave like an intelligent, responsible adult while at a marathon? BlueGlass.

I hope I am not the only person that looks back at the whole YSG fiasco and just shakes their head at how stupid the whole thing was. I'm not even talking about the stream viewers that pushed it, I'm talking about how the marathon goers handled it. Half the people were of the mindset that "The people love him, its good for donations, lets push this!" and the other half were of the mindset that "This is hurtful and incredibly stupid, and I can't quite vocalize it but something just FEELS wrong about this." This was seriously a major talking point of the marathon that somehow stirred animosity and cries of dictatorship.

Here is where the "issue" comes up: How do you reach some sort of consensus on how to address some weird stream phenomenon that occurs DURING a marathon? Its not like a roundtable can be organized in the middle of a marathon.

The answer is simple: Just ask the source for his opinion. That's it. That's really all that matters. However, no one had the nerve to just walk up to BlueGlass and be like, "Yo, dude, do you want to roll with this YSG thing or do you want it to die?" because they didn't want to ruin his good mood or something. This is a full grown adult, mind you, who independently traveled to this marathon on his own hard earned dime.

Either way, BlueGlass obviously caught on to the fact that something was up. What did he do? Demand that people stop calling him that? Put on a name tag that said "YSG" and ham it up? Hide from the camera? No, he just resumed watching runs, playing games, and having a good time without acknowledging it. At one point he was too loud during a run and was told to shush, to which he acknowledged his mistake, did not take offense, and resumed watching the runs. In other words, he decided "whatever is going on is unimportant, this marathon isn't about me."

I'm glad that Uyama asked for his opinion recently, and BlueGlass responded that he would prefer not being called YSG. His thought process was likely along the lines of "This is stupid and the marathon isn't about me."

Communication. Advocacy. Respect. FUCK.

Wow... This thread escalated quickly.

Breakdown summed up most of my feelings on the marathon selection issue nicely. That said, I want to briefly touch on a quote that kind of floated by.

[quote="Lenophis"]
Let's expand this for a moment. Turn the clock back so you're (the general you) between 8 and 13 years old. You want to play ball with the guys at the park. It's getting to the end selection, and it's just two of you left to be picked for teams. The other kid gets picked, then the "captains" both decide and flatly say to go home. [b]That[/b] is how the marathon game selection process has felt to me since it started. I'm not sure how many others here feel that way, but judging by some reactions I'd say I'm not alone here. [/quote]

SDA tends to be nicer about it, but yeah, it is not much different from that... So what's the problem here?

Let us look deeper into this metaphor. Ok, so I am 11 and was not picked to play basketball. Rather than crying and running home to denounce the injustices of this cruel world, I find myself instead thinking about why this might have occurred. Perhaps these young men have never seen me before and have no basis to judge what my skill level is, so I should advocate for myself and talk about how I have been playing on teams for years, or better yet, show them what I can do. Perhaps I really am just the most un-athletic, so I should hit the gym and level up my game, or join a more organized league or something. If you truly care about this, then you find a way to close the deal.

Speedruning is competitive by nature. We post whatever the fastest submitted time for a game is, and we pick the runners that are the fastest for a suggested marathon game. Put bluntly: This is not an egalitarian process, this is a straight up meritocracy. This is not a bad thing at all. Competition breeds success.

While we are on the topic of sports metaphors: Why do television networks show sports besides football, even though football pulls the highest ratings? Simple: Because different strokes for different folks, and because over saturation would flood the market. The charity marathon would not make more dough by just doing Mario, Final Fantasy, Zelda, etc. because it would get stale, and because it would be missing the boat on a bunch of fans of other games that while collectively smaller than the mainstream hits, might not otherwise be donating.

In regards to the relative importance of non-runners, I refer you to the Snowplow Game of 1982, wherein the Patriots were able to defeat the Dolphins after a snowplow operator cleared a path for the placekicker. Sticking to the basketball theme, if someone dunks too hard and breaks the backboard, someone would need to replace it in order for the game to continue, correct? Our donation tracker broke during the last AGDQ, and we would not have been able to continue if SMK did not quickly create a new one. If anything, he was more important than any runner at that marathon. At the end of the day though... What is the point of arguing levels of importance? You are doing something for a good cause either way. Also, I'm done making sports metaphors for the remainder of this post.

If you don't want to go to a marathon due to not having a game... Alright, cool, your call. I would stress to anyone that has never been to a marathon that there is tons of fun to be had regardless of whether or not you have a game, though.

Now then! I want to touch on the social issues that seem to be cropping up. In my experience, everyone has been really cool. There were a few times that I encountered someone that I initially felt was rude or did not seem to care for me, but I quickly realized that this was simply their nature and personality, and no maliciousness was intended. Molotov, I am not sure what happened to you, but I believe I was one of your roommates, so I hope that I was a model of courtesy towards you. I apologize for the snoring.

I agree with Funkdoc that some hard rules should be established for harassment, just to be safe. UA has the right of it though that the big key is that people just need to act like adults. The majority of "issues" that might crop up are just misunderstandings or personality conflicts that certainly do not require "tattling" to an organizer. As Carcinogen said, people tend to be rather civil if you act with maturity.

You know who else is civil if you act with maturity? Organizers! Yeah, turns out that the head SDA muckity mucks are just regular dudes and not hive-minded dictators that act only on their own whims. I'm not surprised at how they occasionally get painted by stream viewers, but I am kind of startled that I occasionally see runners with this mindset, even at marathons.

I really want to stress the importance of ADVOCACY and BEING AN ADULT. Not just in speedrunning, but in all aspects of life. Now then, with all the controversy that has been spouted off in this thread, it is my turn to lay down some controversy, so strap yourselves in [s]kids[/s] responsible adults.

You want to know who the most mature person was at the last AGDQ? The one that best highlights how to behave like an intelligent, responsible adult while at a marathon? BlueGlass.

I hope I am not the only person that looks back at the whole YSG fiasco and just shakes their head at how stupid the whole thing was. I'm not even talking about the stream viewers that pushed it, I'm talking about how the marathon goers handled it. Half the people were of the mindset that "The people love him, its good for donations, lets push this!" and the other half were of the mindset that "This is hurtful and incredibly stupid, and I can't quite vocalize it but something just FEELS wrong about this." This was seriously a major talking point of the marathon that somehow stirred animosity and cries of dictatorship.

Here is where the "issue" comes up: How do you reach some sort of consensus on how to address some weird stream phenomenon that occurs DURING a marathon? Its not like a roundtable can be organized in the middle of a marathon.

The answer is simple: Just ask the source for his opinion. That's it. That's really all that matters. However, no one had the nerve to just walk up to BlueGlass and be like, "Yo, dude, do you want to roll with this YSG thing or do you want it to die?" because they didn't want to ruin his good mood or something. This is a full grown adult, mind you, who independently traveled to this marathon on his own hard earned dime.

Either way, BlueGlass obviously caught on to the fact that something was up. What did he do? Demand that people stop calling him that? Put on a name tag that said "YSG" and ham it up? Hide from the camera? No, he just resumed watching runs, playing games, and having a good time without acknowledging it. At one point he was too loud during a run and was told to shush, to which he acknowledged his mistake, did not take offense, and resumed watching the runs. In other words, he decided "whatever is going on is unimportant, this marathon isn't about me."

I'm glad that Uyama asked for his opinion recently, and BlueGlass responded that he would prefer not being called YSG. His thought process was likely along the lines of "This is stupid and the marathon isn't about me."

Communication. Advocacy. Respect. FUCK.

Brossentia

Edit history:

Brossentia: 2013-07-08 07:41:14 pm

Brossentia: 2013-07-08 07:40:41 pm

2013-07-08 07:31:16 pm

No pain, no gain

I don't know if I really have much to say with the 'GDQ stuff, but I've had a good time at each one I've watched and attended. Really, the intent from the organizers is fairness without doing too much to compromise the charity. Just so you know, with the first SGDQ, I ran Mirror's Edge. I'd never run a game before and had a month to get ready. Yeah, I wasn't great, but it was a good experience. And I somehow started an odd meme, so I can't complain too much.

New runners are coming and participating in marathons, and that's great. If I don't get chosen in a future marathon, that's fine--others need their time to shine. I'll either support by watching or going and reading donations (or commentating for Rayman 2). I mean, these are for a great cause, and I'm not gonna let a little disappointment take place of my joy for the charity.

Other issues. DOSBox. I would love a solution for this. It sounds like people have good ideas, and I want to see something work.

I... don't really have issues with anything. I'm a little curious to see if other events for AGDQ or SGDQ start happening, sort of like a convention. Really depends on what people want to do, I guess.

I don't know if I really have much to say with the 'GDQ stuff, but I've had a good time at each one I've watched and attended. Really, the intent from the organizers is fairness without doing too much to compromise the charity. Just so you know, with the first SGDQ, I ran Mirror's Edge. I'd never run a game before and had a month to get ready. Yeah, I wasn't great, but it was a good experience. And I somehow started an odd meme, so I can't complain too much.

New runners are coming and participating in marathons, and that's great. If I don't get chosen in a future marathon, that's fine--others need their time to shine. I'll either support by watching or going and reading donations (or commentating for Rayman 2). I mean, these are for a great cause, and I'm not gonna let a little disappointment take place of my joy for the charity.

Other issues. DOSBox. I would love a solution for this. It sounds like people have good ideas, and I want to see something work.

I... don't really have issues with anything. I'm a little curious to see if other events for AGDQ or SGDQ start happening, sort of like a convention. Really depends on what people want to do, I guess.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2013-07-08 08:09:35 pm

mikwuyma: 2013-07-08 08:03:28 pm

mikwuyma: 2013-07-08 07:54:04 pm

2013-07-08 07:52:38 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Okay a lot has gone on in the last 24 hours since I've looked at the thread. I'm obviously not going to address every post, but I'll try to address some of the bigger points.

First off, read butters' post above mine. It is VERY GOOD and I agree with the whole thing. Seriously if you only read one post, read his.

I also recommend reading Breakdown's post. It is also filled with good points.

Marathons raising money for charity, etc.: Okay I should expound upon this because some people took my point about not all Mario, Final Fantasy, Zelda, and Metroid and ran away with it.

Yeah, of course it's about raising money for charity, but who comes to together to raise the money for charity, the speedrunning community! To add onto what buttersbb said about being stale if the marathon was only mario, zelda, metroid, and final fantasy, it also wouldn't be very representative of the games we play in the community, and I'm sure plenty of people would be mad. Obviously there are going to be some games from those series every year, but if you look at every marathon schedule, there are a lot of other games on the schedule too.

I like to think of community and raising money for charity as synergistic, not isolated or in combat with each other. If the community didn't want to attend the marathon, then we wouldn't raise any money for charity. And if we didn't want to raise money for charity, some of the greater purpose might be lost and people might not want to attend.

Harrassment Policy: This is honestly something I have never thought about and overlooked, but it's clear now that the marathons are getting bigger, that there needs to be one, and it's a great idea. I feel stupid that I haven't thought about it until now, actually.

I will say this, if people don't mention their problems to to me or someone else on marathon staff such as romscout, then how could we know? If there's a problem, we need to be informed about it if we're going to take action. And please be direct in-person if possible, bringing it up later is a passive-aggressive strategy that just frustrates everyone.

The Blog: Sorry, but it's not going to be about x game or y game, it's going to be about my thoughts going into decisions such as why I limited the amount of 3d zelda we had last AGDQ, and why I choose games the way I do. I don't know if that's going to fulfill the "brutal honesty" requirement, but we'll just have to wait and see. If you don't think it's honest enough when I write posts, you will be free to respond, that's one of the points of a blog, to get some discussion rolling.

I might not be posting until after the roundtable because I'll be busy preparing for it and SGDQ, just FYI.

Okay a lot has gone on in the last 24 hours since I've looked at the thread. I'm obviously not going to address every post, but I'll try to address some of the bigger points.

First off, read butters' post above mine. It is VERY GOOD and [b]I agree with the whole thing[/b]. Seriously if you only read one post, read his.

I also recommend reading [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/speedrunner_roundtable_july_10_at_9_pm_edt_183.html#speedrunner_roundtable_july_10_at_9_pm_edt_183]Breakdown's post[/url]. It is also filled with good points.

Marathons raising money for charity, etc.: Okay I should expound upon this because some people took my point about not all Mario, Final Fantasy, Zelda, and Metroid and ran away with it.

Yeah, of course it's about raising money for charity, but who comes to together to raise the money for charity, the speedrunning community! To add onto what buttersbb said about being stale if the marathon was only mario, zelda, metroid, and final fantasy, it also wouldn't be very representative of the games we play in the community, and I'm sure plenty of people would be mad. Obviously there are going to be some games from those series every year, but if you look at every marathon schedule, there are a lot of other games on the schedule too.

[b]I like to think of community and raising money for charity as synergistic, not isolated or in combat with each other[/b]. If the community didn't want to attend the marathon, then we wouldn't raise any money for charity. And if we didn't want to raise money for charity, some of the greater purpose might be lost and people might not want to attend.

Harrassment Policy: This is honestly something I have never thought about and overlooked, but it's clear now that the marathons are getting bigger, that there needs to be one, and it's a great idea. I feel stupid that I haven't thought about it until now, actually.

I will say this, if people don't mention their problems to to me or someone else on marathon staff such as romscout, then [b]how could we know[/b]? If there's a problem, we need to be informed about it if we're going to take action. And please be direct in-person if possible, bringing it up later is a passive-aggressive strategy that just frustrates everyone.

The Blog: Sorry, but it's not going to be about x game or y game, it's going to be about my thoughts going into decisions such as why I limited the amount of 3d zelda we had last AGDQ, and why I choose games the way I do. I don't know if that's going to fulfill the "brutal honesty" requirement, but we'll just have to wait and see. If you don't think it's honest enough when I write posts, you will be free to respond, that's one of the points of a blog, to get some discussion rolling.

I might not be posting until after the roundtable because I'll be busy preparing for it and SGDQ, just FYI.

PJ

2013-07-08 08:11:34 pm

Is PJ

+1 Butters. Hell, +30.

mikwuyma

2013-07-08 08:56:59 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Actually there's one thing I missed, and it was a point funkdoc raised about considering games that are successful at smaller marathons or community marathons that haven't been in main marathons. I think the best way to push a game like this is to use data such as viewer numbers (and viewer averages during the marathon), chat logs, and if you have them, donation statistics (even rough ones will do). There are so many community marathons now that I cannot possibly watch them all, so a quick snapshot of how the game did would be great.

Sonic '06's runaway success at JRDQ is actually what really made me think that Awful Games Done Quick was a good idea, so I do consider games that were successful in past marathons.