Speedrunner Roundtable July 10 at 9 PM EDT [locked]

2013-07-08 08:23:32 am

sda loyalist

I have done this every time it was an issue, and nothing was done. This is all I have left.

2013-07-08 08:23:33 am

Probably should just take a page out of common law.

1. Have strict rules for black and white issues.
2. Use precedent to decide grayer issues.
3. Have a panel of "judges" which decide which gray issues become precedent.
4. Have an appeal process for changing rules and precedent.

Cool Matty

Edit history:

Cool Matty: 2013-07-08 08:32:18 am

2013-07-08 08:26:57 am

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Lag.Com:

I have done this every time it was an issue, and nothing was done. This is all I have left.

Then it's probably a matter of opinion, where you want to be stricter than others. Opinions suck, but that's life. If it was a huge issue, I'd find it very hard to believe that nothing was done. I've seen issues taken care of first-hand, so I know it's not like all complaints are being ignored. Even against fairly popular people, if that's your angle.

Anyway, there's nothing more that I can say on it because apparently this situation was covered privately and this isn't going to go anywhere.

Lag.Com

2013-07-08 08:31:12 am

sda loyalist

I don't have to "believe" that nothing was done. That's already plain to see. As long as some effort is made to reduce the further effects of harassment within this community during the discussion then at least the ~8 years I've been trying to help this site will bear some fruit.

Cool Matty

2013-07-08 08:34:28 am

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Lag.Com:

I don't have to "believe" that nothing was done. That's already plain to see.

That's my problem, I do see things being done. People get banned from the marathons, people lose games at the marathons they're attending, and for lesser offenses, people getting laid out verbally. I'm sorry your specific issues weren't covered to your satisfaction, but a blatant claim that nothing is handled is just outright false.

Lag.Com

2013-07-08 08:35:11 am

sda loyalist

that nothing was done... about the cases which I reported.

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2013-07-08 08:42:42 am

Poxnor: 2013-07-08 08:41:16 am

Poxnor: 2013-07-08 08:37:14 am

2013-07-08 08:35:51 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from Lag.Com:

C4L proved that community events can help SDA and I only ever see myself going to these smaller and more intimate gatherings now, at least partially because that way Emily and I won't be the target of as much hatred.

That will continue to be an explicit goal -- stated in the bylaws of the C4L legal entity, depending on how things go with our lawyer and actually structuring a legal entity -- that I will endeavour to uphold with this event (probably the least popular thing I've mentioned, based on chat reactions).

Marathons should be an inclusive event which make people feel welcome. We are at a crossroads between how much the community matters and how much the charity matters, and it is time to start deciding if/which marathons are more about the community and if/which they are more about the charity. And this isn't an all-or-nothing proposition, it's a "to-what-extent" question -- to what extent is the Zelda/Mario/FF marathon ("raise as much for charity as possible!") preferable to including members of the community? This question needs an answer, and that answer won't be a number, an algorithm, or anything scientific. It will be a mission statement, a principle, or a core idea.

Sorry to be the biggest asshole in this thread, but you can't move $500,000 per year without people wanting some sort of clarity about how it is done. And for pointing this out (and getting angry about it -- mea culpa, that's on me), I've taken some flak for my less-than-diplomatic stance Sad

[Edit: harsh wording removed, because it doesn't help anything for me to be a jerk Smiley

]
[Edit 2: Edited my edit, because I apparently can't construct a simple sentence without swearing. How, exactly, did I manage to get through SGDQ 2012 without swearing more than two times in Essentia's house?]

[quote="Lag.Com"]C4L proved that community events can help SDA and I only ever see myself going to these smaller and more intimate gatherings now, at least partially because that way Emily and I won't be the target of as much hatred.[/quote]
That will continue to be an explicit goal -- stated in the bylaws of the C4L legal entity, depending on how things go with our lawyer and actually structuring a legal entity --  that I will endeavour to uphold with this event (probably the least popular thing I've mentioned, based on chat reactions).

Marathons should be an inclusive event which make people feel welcome.  We are at a crossroads between how much the community matters and how much the charity matters, and it is time to start deciding if/which marathons are more about the community and if/which they are more about the charity.  And this isn't an all-or-nothing proposition, it's a "to-what-extent" question -- to what extent is the Zelda/Mario/FF marathon ("raise as much for charity as possible!") preferable to including members of the community?  This question needs an answer, and that answer won't be a number, an algorithm, or anything scientific.  It will be a mission statement, a principle, or a core idea.

Sorry to be the biggest asshole in this thread, but you can't move $500,000 per year without people wanting some sort of clarity about how it is done.  And for pointing this out (and getting angry about it -- mea culpa, that's on me), I've taken some flak for my less-than-diplomatic stance :(

[Edit: harsh wording removed, because it doesn't help anything for me to be a jerk :) ]
[Edit 2: Edited my edit, because I apparently can't construct a simple sentence without swearing.  How, exactly, did I manage to get through SGDQ 2012 without swearing more than two times in Essentia's house?]

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2013-07-08 08:47:02 am

2013-07-08 08:44:52 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from Lag.Com:

How about being an asshole at a marathon?

Ahh fuck, I'm boned Wink

(Yes, have a fucking laugh. This thread needs it Wink

)

Onin

2013-07-08 08:48:00 am

I have a suggestion for SGDQ.

Swear on stream = Wear the horse head for 1 hour.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-07-08 08:56:07 am

Yagamoth: 2013-07-08 08:55:30 am

Yagamoth: 2013-07-08 08:54:05 am

2013-07-08 08:51:37 am

INTJ

I've thought about this analogy, but now I decide the actually post it:
- In various team multiplayer games online there is the problem, that people focus way too much on stuff that already happened instead of what they can do NOW, from that very point/position, to turn the match around and still win.
-> Works similarly here. While some things can't be forgotten, have to be addressed and not everything can be let slide, focusing on the upcoming stuff and how to do it properly in the future is more important. The longer things are past, the less important they get, the more of a burden they are if still brought up

TL;DR: Don't live in the past, please

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2013-07-08 09:09:10 am

2013-07-08 09:06:07 am

sda loyalist

Forgetting the past means never learning from it.

Edit: Then, too many things are being decided as 'forgettable'.

Yagamoth

2013-07-08 09:07:59 am

INTJ

Hence my "->" paragraph

Lee

2013-07-08 09:24:59 am

Quote from Poxnor:

Marathons should be an inclusive event which make people feel welcome. We are at a crossroads between how much the community matters and how much the charity matters, and it is time to start deciding if/which marathons are more about the community and if/which they are more about the charity. And this isn't an all-or-nothing proposition, it's a "to-what-extent" question -- to what extent is the Zelda/Mario/FF marathon ("raise as much for charity as possible!") preferable to including members of the community? This question needs an answer, and that answer won't be a number, an algorithm, or anything scientific. It will be a mission statement, a principle, or a core idea.

Building the community and raising money for the marathon are two separate events that just happen alongside each other. As marathons get bigger, we're going to inevitably run into situations where personalities clash, or feel excluded in some way. The very nature of speedrunning puts us in contact with a very limited number of people with similar interests, and the nature of a marathon is the exact opposite, where as many different games and people are all thrown together for the event. I expect cliques and groups to happen to a certain extent, and do not at all expect widespread acceptance and inclusion. Your personality and friendly demeanor should be what makes you your friends, and not the fact that people are participating in the same event. What I do expect is that people are civil to each other at least at the marathon, in real life interactions. So far I've not been disappointed in that.

The community building happens where current bonds are strengthened, and if there are new connections being made, then that's great. But I certainly can't expect 2 groups of people having vastly different interests to all decide to hold hands and sing kumbaya (stealing that one from you, breakdown). Ready for the shocker? Here's the real truth about community building at a live event like GDQ's: People who are open and friendly to everyone tend to end up making a lot of friends. People who aren't as open, don't. Bam. That's it. If someone wants to strengthen the community, then they should take it upon themselves to go out and interact with others. It's what I do, because I want people to get along. But certainly not a requirement for everyone, and I respect that. Boiling this point down, I personally believe that charity should be the main point of the MARATHON, but community should be a high priority for INDIVIDUALS who are so inclined.

Bottom line, if you need everyone to be friends to consider the community building a success, then you're limited to a small gathering. No exceptions. But we can at least act civil to each other in real life interactions, and can find new friends if we try.

[quote="Poxnor"]Marathons should be an inclusive event which make people feel welcome.  We are at a crossroads between how much the community matters and how much the charity matters, and it is time to start deciding if/which marathons are more about the community and if/which they are more about the charity.  And this isn't an all-or-nothing proposition, it's a "to-what-extent" question -- to what extent is the Zelda/Mario/FF marathon ("raise as much for charity as possible!") preferable to including members of the community?  This question needs an answer, and that answer won't be a number, an algorithm, or anything scientific.  It will be a mission statement, a principle, or a core idea.
[/quote]

Building the community and raising money for the marathon are two separate events that just happen alongside each other. As marathons get bigger, we're going to inevitably run into situations where personalities clash, or feel excluded in some way. The very nature of speedrunning puts us in contact with a very limited number of people with similar interests, and the nature of a marathon is the exact opposite, where as many different games and people are all thrown together for the event. I expect cliques and groups to happen to a certain extent, and do not at all expect widespread acceptance and inclusion. Your personality and friendly demeanor should be what makes you your friends, and not the fact that people are participating in the same event. What I do expect is that people are civil to each other at least at the marathon, in real life interactions. So far I've not been disappointed in that.

The community building happens where current bonds are strengthened, and if there are new connections being made, then that's great. But I certainly can't expect 2 groups of people having vastly different interests to all decide to hold hands and sing kumbaya (stealing that one from you, breakdown). Ready for the shocker? Here's the real truth about community building at a live event like GDQ's: People who are open and friendly to everyone tend to end up making a lot of friends. People who aren't as open, don't. Bam. That's it. If someone wants to strengthen the community, then they should take it upon themselves to go out and interact with others. It's what I do, because I want people to get along. But certainly not a requirement for everyone, and I respect that. Boiling this point down, I personally believe that charity should be the main point of the MARATHON, but community should be a high priority for INDIVIDUALS who are so inclined.

Bottom line, if you need everyone to be friends to consider the community building a success, then you're limited to a small gathering. No exceptions. But we can at least act civil to each other in real life interactions, and can find new friends if we try.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2013-07-08 01:45:47 pm

2013-07-08 09:39:37 am

Quote from Onin:

I have a suggestion for SGDQ.

Swear on stream = Wear the horse head for 1 hour.

Dude, fuck yeah, I've always wanted to wear one of those! I'll even play my game with it on my head.

But umm... You'd be surprised how rational some of these perceived "assholes" actually are.

Is there something Party A has done to make you feel like shit? Man up, pull them aside and talk to them. Let them know how you feel.

Is there something you've done to make Party A feel offended due to a misunderstanding of some kind? Man up, eat crow, and apologize.

Is there something Party B doesn't understand about some kind of groupthink, such as how chat should be moderated and how to keep everyone happy? Don't fucking use sarcasm to get your point across, break it down for them and educate them on group fucking psychology! That one is actually the most

Example: I didn't like the way REDACTED prank called my phone in the middle of the night to give me shit, they didn't like the way I talked shit about them behind their backs because of the way they interact toward other people. Everyone knew they were in the wrong and that we had some obvious personality differences, but there are workarounds for that now. We acknowledged there was some shitty things happening going back and forth, we agreed that we wouldn't do that again, and nobody hates each other; and although neither party goes out of our way to communicate with each other, we respect each others' shit and acknowledge presences.

So in response:

Quote from Lag.Com:

Forgetting the past means never learning from it.

Edit: Then, too many things are being decided as 'forgettable'.

Yes, Lag, you are correct. So you've gotta attack it head-on. However, one thing that you gotta realize is that SDA is essentially the big leagues now. Uyama, nor anyone else can be responsible for everyone's interactions any longer. The only thing Uyama can (should, and is, for good reason) be focusing his attention on is making sure the event plays out and that it looks good to the public so we have a reason to keep making it happen.

At CEO, the big FGC event that just happened a week ago or so, Noel Brown actually got arrested right outside the hotel room I was staying in for beating down a dude who was sleeping with his ex. Why should someone like Alex Jebailey, the guy who organized the event, which has something like 1200 people, be responsible for Noel Brown?

This actually goes hand-in-hand with what Lee just posted perfectly. I'm going to meet a bunch of people, and I'm going to have some fun. There are cliques, and if they are being a bunch of conceited assholes when you've realistically imposed nothing on them (which I guarantee there are going to be), then that's a projection of the kind of hate that is based on the idea that others should be like them, probably tied into hating the things about you they needlessly hate about themselves. Their problem.

Edit: I should not have name-dropped. I'm really sorry about that.

[quote="Onin"]I have a suggestion for SGDQ.

Swear on stream = Wear the horse head for 1 hour.[/quote]

Dude, fuck yeah, I've always wanted to wear one of those! I'll even play my game with it on my head.

But umm... You'd be surprised how rational some of these perceived "assholes" actually are.

Is there something Party A has done to make you feel like shit? Man up, pull them aside and talk to them. Let them know how you feel.

Is there something you've done to make Party A feel offended due to a misunderstanding of some kind? Man up, eat crow, and apologize.

Is there something Party B doesn't understand about some kind of groupthink, such as how chat should be moderated and how to keep everyone happy? Don't fucking use sarcasm to get your point across, break it down for them and educate them on group fucking psychology! That one is actually the most

Example: I didn't like the way REDACTED prank called my phone in the middle of the night to give me shit, they didn't like the way I talked shit about them behind their backs because of the way they interact toward other people. Everyone knew they were in the wrong and that we had some obvious personality differences, but there are workarounds for that now. We acknowledged there was some shitty things happening going back and forth, we agreed that we wouldn't do that again, and nobody hates each other; and although neither party goes out of our way to communicate with each other, we respect each others' shit and acknowledge presences.

So in response:

[quote="Lag.Com"]Forgetting the past means never learning from it.

Edit: Then, too many things are being decided as 'forgettable'.[/quote]

Yes, Lag, you are correct. So you've gotta attack it head-on. However, one thing that you gotta realize is that SDA is essentially the big leagues now. Uyama, nor anyone else can be responsible for everyone's interactions any longer. The only thing Uyama can (should, and is, for good reason) be focusing his attention on is making sure the event plays out and that it looks good to the public so we have a reason to keep making it happen.

At CEO, the big FGC event that just happened a week ago or so, Noel Brown actually got arrested right outside the hotel room I was staying in for beating down a dude who was sleeping with his ex. Why should someone like Alex Jebailey, the guy who organized the event, which has something like 1200 people, be responsible for Noel Brown?

This actually goes hand-in-hand with what Lee just posted perfectly. I'm going to meet a bunch of people, and I'm going to have some fun. There are cliques, and if they are being a bunch of conceited assholes when you've realistically imposed nothing on them (which I guarantee there are going to be), then that's a projection of the kind of hate that is based on the idea that others should be like them, probably tied into hating the things about you they needlessly hate about themselves. Their problem.

Edit: I should not have name-dropped. I'm really sorry about that.

Worn_Traveler

Edit history:

Worn_Traveler: 2013-07-08 09:46:31 am

2013-07-08 09:45:16 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

A couple brief notes on various things being discussed in this thread. Some of this has been slightly covered and some are ideas

1. Console re-alignment: If a re-alignment were to happen, the important thing is for clarity concerning what console goes where, no matter if it is ordered by generation, company (probably a bad idea), or the three tier system that was suggested a page or two ago. It doesn't matter where you put the console if no one knows what section it's in.

2. Leaderboards: To extend on what moooh said, SDA is not an entity that controls the runs on its site aside from hosting the videos. Each run that is published still belongs to the runner. If a runner wants his/her SDA run on a leaderboard then that person must give their permission. Is it an inconvenience for satiating our constant demand for the fastest and best? Yes. Is it better to be polite and not just grab everything because we are impatient? Of course.

3. "Other" SDA marathons: I believe that Alko mentioned this many pages ago concerning ESA. ESA is a good example of what could be a SDA marathon but isn't due to contractual/legal obligations. If I remember correctly, the reason the first ESA wasn't a SDA event was because the contract with Ludendi stated something to the effect that the rights to the marathon and such would belong to Ludendi. SDA couldn't legally touch it. I have nothing against Ludendi and I only use this as an example. If one wants a marathon that could be considered SDA official, it has to be legally free to be one, so pay attention to what you sign.

4. GDQ Marathons: I've never looked at each marathon as an AGDQ or SGDQ because each marathon has brought something new, regardless of its size and donation pool. The feel and vibe of a marathon begins at the planning phase. AGDQ '13 felt more like a SGDQ to me this year and the way that things have been set up for SDGQ this year reminds me more of AGDQ 2012, where there was more of a cut and dry approach to everything. Now, I have only been to AGDQ'11 and '13 (I stopped by AGDQ '12 for a day). I never played a game for either marathon I was at the whole time. I had a chance to play 3 games at SGDQ '12 but I had to back out due to financial reasons (and running a donation stream wasn't an option. I wouldn't have anyways.) So when it came time to suggest games for AGDQ '13, I did so, and was told no to all of them due to backing out from the previous marathon. Was I mad that I might never get a chance to play in an SDA marathon again? Of course, but I didn't let that stop me from still going to AGDQ and having a good time. If you really want to go and have fun even though you are not on the schedule, it can be worth it to go. Each marathon is different, regardless of what it's called. I like the first two SGDQ's because I felt that the game list was better balanced then the first two AGDQ's. I'm not as crazy about this SGDQ's schedule because it looks more to me like an AGDQ than a SGDQ, but I'll still watch and donate because I enjoy seeing these games played and I respect a lot of the runners that run them. There is no such thing as the perfect marathon when it comes down to executing it. I know that community is important, but the charity has to take precedent for a charity marathon. Every marathon is a different creature. Remember, the attitude and feel of a marathon is up to its participants and not the games. The games can only do so much on their own. I don't agree with every decision Mike and the others make but they've been consistent, and consistency either brings about continued success or stagnation. Let each marathon be its own event and do the right thing: helping others who are less fortunate, be it by running a game, doing tech work, airport trips, donating from home, or just sitting in the back row enjoying the runs. When it comes down to it, the main benefactors of these marathons aren't the participants but those that the charity helps, and helping others is one of the least selfish things one can do.

A couple brief notes on various things being discussed in this thread. Some of this has been slightly covered and some are ideas

1. Console re-alignment: If a re-alignment were to happen, the important thing is for clarity concerning what console goes where, no matter if it is ordered by generation, company (probably a bad idea), or the three tier system that was suggested a page or two ago. It doesn't matter where you put the console if no one knows what section it's in.

2. Leaderboards: To extend on what moooh said, SDA is not an entity that controls the runs on its site aside from hosting the videos. Each run that is published still belongs to the runner. If a runner wants his/her SDA run on a leaderboard then that person must give their permission. Is it an inconvenience for satiating our constant demand for the fastest and best? Yes. Is it better to be polite and not just grab everything because we are impatient? Of course.

3. "Other" SDA marathons: I believe that Alko mentioned this many pages ago concerning ESA. ESA is a good example of what could be a SDA marathon but isn't due to contractual/legal obligations. If I remember correctly, the reason the first ESA wasn't a SDA event was because the contract with Ludendi stated something to the effect that the rights to the marathon and such would belong to Ludendi. SDA couldn't legally touch it. I have nothing against Ludendi and I only use this as an example. If one wants a marathon that could be considered SDA official, it has to be legally free to be one, so pay attention to what you sign.

4. GDQ Marathons: I've never looked at each marathon as an AGDQ or SGDQ because each marathon has brought something new, regardless of its size and donation pool. The feel and vibe of a marathon begins at the planning phase. AGDQ '13 felt more like a SGDQ to me this year and the way that things have been set up for SDGQ this year reminds me more of AGDQ 2012, where there was more of a cut and dry approach to everything. Now, I have only been to AGDQ'11 and '13 (I stopped by AGDQ '12 for a day). I never played a game for either marathon I was at the whole time. I had a chance to play 3 games at SGDQ '12 but I had to back out due to financial reasons (and running a donation stream wasn't an option. I wouldn't have anyways.) So when it came time to suggest games for AGDQ '13, I did so, and was told no to all of them due to backing out from the previous marathon. Was I mad that I might never get a chance to play in an SDA marathon again? Of course, but I didn't let that stop me from still going to AGDQ and having a good time. If you really want to go and have fun even though you are not on the schedule, it can be worth it to go. Each marathon is different, regardless of what it's called. I like the first two SGDQ's because I felt that the game list was better balanced then the first two AGDQ's. I'm not as crazy about this SGDQ's schedule because it looks more to me like an AGDQ than a SGDQ, but I'll still watch and donate because I enjoy seeing these games played and I respect a lot of the runners that run them. There is no such thing as the perfect marathon when it comes down to executing it. I know that community is important, but the charity has to take precedent for a charity marathon. Every marathon is a different creature. Remember, the attitude and feel of a marathon is up to its participants and not the games. The games can only do so much on their own. I don't agree with every decision Mike and the others make but they've been consistent, and consistency either brings about continued success or stagnation. Let each marathon be its own event and do the right thing: helping others who are less fortunate, be it by running a game, doing tech work, airport trips, donating from home, or just sitting in the back row enjoying the runs. When it comes down to it, the main benefactors of these marathons aren't the participants but those that the charity helps, and helping others is one of the least selfish things one can do.

Alko

2013-07-08 10:53:51 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Oh wow, one hundred posts since I went to bed yesterday night. Good Lord.

Quote from Skullboy:

3. "Other" SDA marathons: I believe that Alko mentioned this many pages ago concerning ESA. ESA is a good example of what could be a SDA marathon but isn't due to contractual/legal obligations. If I remember correctly, the reason the first ESA wasn't a SDA event was because the contract with Ludendi stated something to the effect that the rights to the marathon and such would belong to Ludendi. SDA couldn't legally touch it. I have nothing against Ludendi and I only use this as an example. If one wants a marathon that could be considered SDA official, it has to be legally free to be one, so pay attention to what you sign.

I don't know if that covers it all. ESA12 would not have been a *GDQ however you put it, because it was a first-timer and so much stuff needed to be figured out; hell, nobody even knew if it would work the way it should until the event itself. ESA13 will have been coming a long way since then, but I also feel any event regardless needs to prove it can happen again, before a *GDQ status should be considered.
Also, Ludendi as a whole with Frezy as a person were the main people organising ESA12, so there was no real contract or anything. But I could be wrong on that one.

Re different views on marathons, SGDQ/AGDQ, why are people attending, who do we give games.
I don't intend this section to be much of an argument, more of a rockpool of my personal views with what I perceive as facts added here and there occasionally.

Fact: Sometime during the beginning/middle of organising ESA13, one of the prime goals was to give everyone a game who wanted to come (providing that game is not much longer than an hour in length).
This, imho, lead to a wide diversity of games with rather few big cash cows, as well as a large number of runners being allowed into the basketball game. But we were only able to do that for a variety of reasons, including small size and the fact that (almost) none of the really big names (Singlemic, Cosmo, whoever) are Europe based, and those big names are therefore unlikely to attend. Yes, of course there are big names for specific games in Europe, but I'm not sure if they entirely compare.
I'll also add, that when I first saw (I think it was) Edenal write that down somewhere, I gasped, took a step back, supported myself against the wall and thought 'wow'. I don't believe that approach will be possible (unless severely reduced) for A/SGDQ. I'm very curious, what ESA14 is going to be like in that respect.
I do, however, believe, that there should be some kind of bias when choosing games for a marathon, based on 'did that runner get a chance to be in the last x marathons? If so, how often, and how many games did he run?', resulting in the standards required to reattend often with more games higher than if you haven't attended. Again, it wouldn't make sense to give me Super Mario World, if Dram is attending, even if that was the only game I'd suggested. No black, no white, only shades of grey.

Now in respect to attending/not attending marathons because I can/cannot showcase a game there:
I beg to consider time, money, marathon and many, many more as aspects of this. I will have attended three marathons by the end of this month. ESA12 I would have gone to this way or that, even if Goof Troop (my only run) would have been cut. Why? I wanted to know what it's like, and wanted to help wherever I could. I ended up manning the donation station most of the time, and enjoyed it. Also, the train to get there cost just around 100 €, the attendance fee was a piece of cake; and there were also reasons revolving around my master's thesis (which I had handed in a mere fortnight before) that meant I was not going to be spending any time at home.
For C4L, again I really wanted to come, this time because it would be a showcase of Final Fantasies. I had hopes of playing some parts of IX alongside with Puwexil (who beat me to signing up by ten thousand miles) but settled for sitting on the couch, commenting during that game as well. If it had not been an explicitly FF marathon, like C4L14 is going to be, I probably would have backed out in the same situation. Why? I spent ten times the amount of money to fly across the pond than I needed to get to Sweden. Should be enough of a reason. What did I do the rest of the time? Yes, I was very happy to again man the donation station (and found it a lot easier than ESA12, although it was a shame I had to borrow other people's laptops to do so, because the tracker doesn't support Linux).
I'll skip ESA13 in here and go strait to C4L14. I'm going to make plans on attending, suggest a game and ask my bosses for a holiday. If my game does not make it on schedule, I'm going to rea~lly think it through if I'm going to attend. I'll have a lot more money at my disposal than this year, and early booking should mean cheaper flights (and the people I met last year were awesome!). Still I'ld probably be leaning towards a 'no'. Not because donation tracking or whatever tech tasks are not fun, not because the people are not cool, but because I don't really see the benefits of going as opposed to donation from at home, as Essentia said.
So, same person, three different marathons, three different reasonings for whether coming or not. Does that mean I'm a hybrid of half a CoolMatty and half a Darkwing Duck?

Oh wow, one hundred posts since I went to bed yesterday night. Good Lord.

[quote=Skullboy]3. "Other" SDA marathons: I believe that Alko mentioned this many pages ago concerning ESA. ESA is a good example of what could be a SDA marathon but isn't due to contractual/legal obligations. If I remember correctly, the reason the first ESA wasn't a SDA event was because the contract with Ludendi stated something to the effect that the rights to the marathon and such would belong to Ludendi. SDA couldn't legally touch it. I have nothing against Ludendi and I only use this as an example. If one wants a marathon that could be considered SDA official, it has to be legally free to be one, so pay attention to what you sign.[/quote]
I don't know if that covers it all. ESA12 would not have been a *GDQ however you put it, because it was a first-timer and so much stuff needed to be figured out; hell, nobody even knew if it would work the way it should until the event itself. ESA13 will have been coming a long way since then, but I also feel any event regardless needs to prove it can happen again, before a *GDQ status should be considered.
Also, Ludendi as a whole with Frezy as a person were the main people organising ESA12, so there was no real contract or anything. But I could be wrong on that one.

Re different views on marathons, SGDQ/AGDQ, why are people attending, who do we give games.
I don't intend this section to be much of an argument, more of a rockpool of my personal views with what I perceive as facts added here and there occasionally.

Fact: Sometime during the beginning/middle of organising ESA13, one of the prime goals was to give everyone a game who wanted to come (providing that game is not much longer than an hour in length).
This, imho, lead to a wide diversity of games with rather few big cash cows, as well as a large number of runners being allowed into the basketball game. But we were only able to do that for a variety of reasons, including small size and the fact that (almost) none of the really big names (Singlemic, Cosmo, whoever) are Europe based, and those big names are therefore unlikely to attend. Yes, of course there are big names for specific games in Europe, but I'm not sure if they entirely compare.
I'll also add, that when I first saw (I think it was) Edenal write that down somewhere, I gasped, took a step back, supported myself against the wall and thought 'wow'. I don't believe that approach will be possible (unless severely reduced) for A/SGDQ. I'm very curious, what ESA14 is going to be like in that respect.
I do, however, believe, that there should be some kind of bias when choosing games for a marathon, based on 'did that runner get a chance to be in the last [i]x[/i] marathons? If so, how often, and how many games did he run?', resulting in the standards required to reattend often with more games higher than if you haven't attended. Again, it wouldn't make sense to give me Super Mario World, if Dram is attending, even if that was the only game I'd suggested. No black, no white, only shades of grey.

Now in respect to attending/not attending marathons because I can/cannot showcase a game there:
I beg to consider time, money, marathon and many, many more as aspects of this. I will have attended three marathons by the end of this month. ESA12 I would have gone to this way or that, even if Goof Troop (my only run) would have been cut. Why? I wanted to know what it's like, and wanted to help wherever I could. I ended up manning the donation station most of the time, and enjoyed it. Also, the train to get there cost just around 100 €, the attendance fee was a piece of cake; and there were also reasons revolving around my master's thesis (which I had handed in a mere fortnight before) that meant I was not going to be spending any time at home.
For C4L, again I really wanted to come, this time because it would be a showcase of Final Fantasies. I had hopes of playing some parts of IX alongside with Puwexil (who beat me to signing up by ten thousand miles) but settled for sitting on the couch, commenting during that game as well. If it had not been an explicitly FF marathon, like C4L14 is going to be, I probably would have backed out in the same situation. Why? I spent ten times the amount of money to fly across the pond than I needed to get to Sweden. Should be enough of a reason. What did I do the rest of the time? Yes, I was very happy to again man the donation station (and found it a lot easier than ESA12, although it was a shame I had to borrow other people's laptops to do so, because the tracker doesn't support Linux).
I'll skip ESA13 in here and go strait to C4L14. I'm going to make plans on attending, suggest a game and ask my bosses for a holiday. If my game does not make it on schedule, I'm going to rea~lly think it through if I'm going to attend. I'll have a lot more money at my disposal than this year, and early booking should mean cheaper flights (and the people I met last year were awesome!). Still I'ld probably be leaning towards a 'no'. Not because donation tracking or whatever tech tasks are not fun, not because the people are not cool, but because I don't really see the benefits of going as opposed to donation from at home, as Essentia said.
So, same person, three different marathons, three different reasonings for whether coming or not. Does that mean I'm a hybrid of half a CoolMatty and half a Darkwing Duck?

oasiz

2013-07-08 10:59:21 am

Iha paska

TL;DR whole thread but I am really looking forward to DOS / win9x improvements. As there is no reference hardware for those, there should be a clear set of guidelines on those. For example there are games where the frame limit breaks if you have a too fast CPU and that means that you can run the game at 2-3x speed or even more.

"Faithfully" recording DOS games from real hardware is a real pain even if you have a capture card since you MUST use a scaler as some games might switch resolution / Hz between menu/ingame and whatnot. This already places expenses around +$300 if you want a reliable capture setup.

A more clear set on framerate / settings / what emulation is allowed would be awesome.
Dosbox is extremely faithful nowdays and you can pretty much have game specific settings to simulate the optimal system of the time. I wouldn't worry too much about load times too much since you could run a lot of games from HDD already instead of floppy, which gave you nearly instant load times in old stuff (besides current PC timing cuts them from the final time) Most official gog.com releases have mostly been set to "auto cpu speed" so with with pretty much anything from the 90s you should get a similar setup to a typical gog.com release with out of the box settings.

If you guys need help with DOS / Win9x stuff then I will gladly help, although you probably have this covered.

TL;DR whole thread but I am really looking forward to DOS / win9x improvements. As there is no reference hardware for those, there should be a clear set of guidelines on those. For example there are games where the frame limit breaks if you have a too fast CPU and that means that you can run the game at 2-3x speed or even more.

"Faithfully" recording DOS games from real hardware is a real pain even if you have a capture card since you MUST use a scaler as some games might switch resolution / Hz between menu/ingame and whatnot. This already places expenses around +$300 if you want a reliable capture setup.

A more clear set on framerate / settings / what emulation is allowed would be awesome.
Dosbox is extremely faithful nowdays and you can pretty much  have game specific settings to simulate the optimal system of the time. I wouldn't worry too much about load times too much since you could run a lot of games from HDD already instead of floppy, which gave you nearly instant load times in old stuff (besides current PC timing cuts them from the final time) Most official gog.com releases have mostly been set to "auto cpu speed" so with with pretty much anything from the 90s you should get a similar setup to a typical gog.com release with out of the box settings.

If you guys need help with DOS / Win9x stuff then I will gladly help, although you probably have this covered.

zewing

2013-07-08 11:30:00 am

just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it

I think the real reason people attend AGDQ or SGDQ is more towards money and location. I live close to AGDQ and as such I probably will only ever attend AGDQ especially since I go to college and am very limited on funding. Alko really sums this up with more key points. Not attending a specific marathon since you THINK your game won't make it isn't feasel-able. If you want to attend offer game since 100% of games not offered are rejected (duh). Also when it comes down to it I'd pick an active member of a game who's been streaming a lot of run / helping out on forums / racing over someone who hasn't streamed runs nor has ever been heard of for marathon. This is just common sense.

In regards to game organization I'd add a new one that's just "newest" to include wii u, ps4, and xbox one. This will have to be a temporary fix until agreements on detailed organization can be made (hell we got 2 marathons coming up and AGDQ planning no need to be in a rush to fix it permanantely).

One final thing I want to say and it's that I only ever will attend these marathons to help out the charity. My family has been hit hard with cancer over the years so I go for personal reasons and I could really care less if my stream link or anything about me is even mentioned on stream. I try to help out in any way I can for charities and all I want is for speedrunners to come together and help a common cause by being selfless.

I think the real reason people attend AGDQ or SGDQ is more towards money and location.  I live close to AGDQ and as such I probably will only ever attend AGDQ especially since I go to college and am very limited on funding.  Alko really sums this up with more key points.  Not attending a specific marathon since you THINK your game won't make it isn't feasel-able.  If you want to attend offer game since 100% of games not offered are rejected (duh).  Also when it comes down to it I'd pick an active member of a game who's been streaming a lot of run / helping out on forums / racing over someone who hasn't streamed runs nor has ever been heard of for marathon.  This is just common sense.

In regards to game organization I'd add a new one that's just "newest" to include wii u, ps4, and xbox one.  This will have to be a temporary fix until agreements on detailed organization can be made (hell we got 2 marathons coming up and AGDQ planning no need to be in a rush to fix it permanantely).

One final thing I want to say and it's that I only ever will attend these marathons to help out the charity.  My family has been hit hard with cancer over the years so I go for personal reasons and I could really care less if my stream link or anything about me is even mentioned on stream.  I try to help out in any way I can for charities and all I want is for speedrunners to come together and help a common cause by being selfless.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2013-07-08 11:34:23 am

2013-07-08 11:33:40 am

Just a quick thought regarding bullying: what if a small number of respected and levelheaded members of the community openly volunteered to moderate any disputes that may come up? Iin other words, make sure everyone present knows they are willing to do this - and doing this voluntarily is key. Speaking from experience, Carc is 100% right, but unfortunately such confrontations can be difficult to do right, or even at all. Having somebody impartial there should help both for summoning the necessary confidence, and in preventing escalation - intended or not. Also, to be clear, I think that in these instances handing out "punishments" beyond, "hey, cut it out" should be limited to particularly bad cases because this strategy aims to stop issues before they get out of hand. I would also encourage complete confidentiality whenever reasonable.

Is this a perfect solution? Not at all, but I think it could help a great deal and would at least love to see it discussed.

Edit: to be clear, this suggestion is mostly for marathons

Just a quick thought regarding bullying: what if a small number of respected and levelheaded members of the community openly volunteered to moderate any disputes that may come up?  Iin other words, make sure everyone present knows they are willing to do this - and doing this voluntarily is key.  Speaking from experience, Carc is 100% right, but unfortunately such confrontations can be difficult to do right, or even at all.  Having somebody impartial there should help both for summoning the necessary confidence, and in preventing escalation - intended or not.  Also, to be clear, I think that in these instances handing out "punishments" beyond, "hey, cut it out" should be limited to particularly bad cases because this strategy aims to stop issues before they get out of hand.  I would also encourage complete confidentiality whenever reasonable.

Is this a perfect solution?  Not at all, but I think it could help a great deal and would at least love to see it discussed.

Edit: to be clear, this suggestion is mostly for marathons

Lee

2013-07-08 11:40:31 am

There's never been any need for it because people are only assholes on the internet. This fact hasn't changed. As far as I know in face to face interactions people have been more than friendly and helpful.

Withhelde

2013-07-08 11:41:48 am

Thinker & Dreamer

Eh, by that point, it comes down to misunderstandings and people not really giving a shit at the time.

jape

2013-07-08 11:48:19 am

i love you wes

Rakuen

2013-07-08 11:55:17 am

@zewing: I didn't mean to make any changes to console org OMG RIGHT NAO, but rather to have it as something to think about and maybe take action on in the near-ish future. If the administration thinks it's fine the way it is, that's fine too. Smiley

RoboSparkle

Edit history:

RoboSparkle: 2013-07-08 12:03:13 pm

2013-07-08 12:00:38 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

I'd kind of like to see an update on the whole DOSBox/emulator situations because of (incoming selfish reasons) possibly seeing some Amiga runs via emulator. Getting a "legitimate" setup there is really difficult, as my brief and fruitless attempts to get a working Amiga recorded properly would have been prohibitively expensive. However that's where it gets complicated if you do talk about emulating because the idea of "standard" Amiga is as daft and non-existent as a "standard" DOS setup. WinUAE is pretty much the emulator of choice in Lemon Amiga and EAB forums, you can install most games that had the feature originally and it has its own recorder. However there are a couple of disadvantages - most emulated games are cracked with a LOT of different versions (and not all of them work properly). There is a more serious reason though which is that WinUAE comes with its own recorder but you can use savestates to cheat and I don't think it's possible to detect this in the video (I could be wrong though).

TL;DR - if emulators are being considered for use in some situations (i.e. non-standard hardware or if it's prohibitively expensive to get and record from official hardware) then would this be extended to the Amiga emulator despite possibly having undetectable cheating (I don't know if it's undetectable) and the risk of badly emulated games?

EDIT - I forgot to put the reason I want to see this happen, which is to see some Amiga games on the site, because it's a fantastic machine with a wonderful library of quality games. And Great Giana Sisters Wink

I'd kind of like to see an update on the whole DOSBox/emulator situations because of (incoming selfish reasons) possibly seeing some Amiga runs via emulator.  Getting a "legitimate" setup there is really difficult, as my brief and fruitless attempts to get a working Amiga recorded properly would have been prohibitively expensive. However that's where it gets complicated if you do talk about emulating because the idea of "standard" Amiga is as daft and non-existent as a "standard" DOS setup.  WinUAE is pretty much the emulator of choice in Lemon Amiga and EAB forums, you can install most games that had the feature originally and it has its own recorder.  However there are a couple of disadvantages - most emulated games are cracked with a LOT of different versions (and not all of them work properly).  There is a more serious reason though which is that WinUAE comes with its own recorder but you can use savestates to cheat and I don't think it's possible to detect this in the video (I could be wrong though).

TL;DR - if emulators are being considered for use in some situations (i.e. non-standard hardware or if it's prohibitively expensive to get and record from official hardware) then would this be extended to the Amiga emulator despite possibly having undetectable cheating (I don't know if it's undetectable) and the risk of badly emulated games?

EDIT - I forgot to put the reason I want to see this happen, which is to see some Amiga games on the site, because it's a fantastic machine with a wonderful library of quality games.  And Great Giana Sisters ;)

ShadowWraith

Edit history:

ShadowWraith: 2013-07-08 12:15:31 pm

ShadowWraith: 2013-07-08 12:07:25 pm

2013-07-08 12:07:06 pm

.

I have a setup for recording from an Amiga A500+: my PC, an EasyCap and the Amiga itself... I wouldn't call it expensive so much as I would complain that Amiga hardware is getting harder and harder to come by nowadays. :/

But yeah, there's a lot of Amiga games that deserve runs out there.