Sorting out some runs

2014-12-01 07:23:30 pm

Dixie Kong Fan Club

I would guess because they aren't speedrunners to begin with, they easily went over a generous estimate, there seems to be no desire to improve, among a variety of other issues. The lackadaisical approach they're taking is insulting to the number of people who work their tails off to be competitive in their games.

Garrison

2014-12-01 07:25:12 pm

Because the run is a joke amongst the speedrunning crowd, therefor way more likely to be criticized at every opportunity. I can't say I don't understand why its in the marathon in the first place, but the run is rightly controversial. Everyone should have to practice their games though, it shouldn't matter what kind of money they'll bring in.

Bismuth

2014-12-01 07:28:38 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Quote from TheMG2:

Why do I only see posts about the minecraft runners not practicing and not about anybody else who isn't practicing? I don't buy that they're the only ones who aren't practicing.

I know this might not be the best thread to be complaining about minecraft but really, the state of their run has a lot of big red flags. Would you let someone do a 70 star run of mario 64 and put an estimate of 3 hours, and then find out they can't even do a run under that already awful estimate one month before the marathon? All while casually saying stuff like "world record is something like 2 hours 30 but it was done on japanese so it's something completely different" and talking against the practice of speedrunning? Because this is what these guys are doing right now. They are not even trying. This is a huge red flag because on top of the run itself being controversial in the first place, it is 100% going to be a trainwreck.

TheMG2

2014-12-01 07:34:35 pm

I don't buy that "Because they're popular" means they will do well even if they don't practice. Cody Miller ran the popular Halo games, but didn't practice. People didn't like his run. We all know how that ended up.

The majority of the people watching will have seen runs prior to it and will judge it in comparison. Prior to it is a Halo 2 co-op run and the runners will be highly practiced. If the minecraft runners completely fail, the viewers will know.

Yeah at the moment, its looking bad, but its not a sudden casualization of the entire event.

Garrison

2014-12-01 07:38:10 pm

cody miller was known for speedrunning. bacon_donut is known for having animated bacon spilled onto him via greenscreen.

TheMG2

2014-12-01 07:43:05 pm

But you can't seriously believe that people will like a run in which the runners mess up a lot, after runs in which the runners perform really well.

Supreme

2014-12-01 07:45:02 pm

Dixie Kong Fan Club

Quote from TheMG2:

But you can't seriously believe that people will like a run in which the runners mess up a lot, after runs in which the runners perform really well.

I don't think viewer perception is the issue, the fact that we're even having this discussion about how ill-prepared the run will be is a problem in itself

TheMG2

2014-12-01 07:49:57 pm

Then why do people act like this will be the standard, that next we will have pewdiepie? RIP speedrunning and all that. If people were actually concerned about the quality of the run itself, then you would be complaining about just that, rather than generalizing.

jape

2014-12-01 08:01:32 pm

Quote from TheMG2:

Then why do people act like this will be the standard, that next we will have pewdiepie? RIP speedrunning and all that. If people were actually concerned about the quality of the run itself, then you would be complaining about just that, rather than generalizing.

I don't want to Generalize Tongue

But, most people are posting about the run quality, or lack thereof Tongue

Right? I don't exactly have a Horse in this race but To be honest, Mate, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue for or against ! Smiley

BradNThings

Edit history:

BradNThings: 2014-12-01 08:03:32 pm

BradNThings: 2014-12-01 08:02:37 pm

2014-12-01 08:02:10 pm

Quote from TheMG2:

Then why do people act like this will be the standard.

The current state of the Minecraft run sets a bad precedent. Several members of the community have stated concerns about the run. Minecraft was in fact the top viewed run in AGDQ, and it raked in a good amount of cash. But the runners are under-prepared, under-practiced, under-motivated, subpar, and under-enthused about their speedgame, and speedgaming as a whole.

I've gone through the Twitch vods and I've found 1 completed run:

Original Estimate: 2:00
http://www.twitch.tv/giantwaffle/b/593759141 - Nov 29th, 2:12

12 minutes over estimate, the only run I see on either channel in the past 60 days (I can't go into anything past that for reference.) If I recall correctly, before this 60 day period they did a 1:4X (which they used in the submission for the game) and did a 1:5X after that in early July. No evidence, but this is what I've seen in the time I followed the two of them and the concerns were initially brought up by the members of the community. Single player random-seed on a harder difficulty is HALF THE TIME of their best run.

( Source: ) Another issue is that they play on the current patch. What if a patch gets dropped between now and AGDQ that chances how the game is played? They'd be even LESS practiced.

I'm gonna do a play by play of all the red flags we see regarding this run:
-GiantWaffle and BaconDonut have done no practice, just runs (see below)
-GiantWaffle and BaconDonut have done a minimal amount of runs (3)
-The game/category itself is volatile because world gen can just bend you over
-The Co-Op run has a significantly longer time than the best run
-They're behind position 4 (in solo) on the leaderboard by over 20 minutes

Are they the only ones not practicing? No.
Have they put enough work to be even considered for a GDQ? I don't think so.

[quote="TheMG2"] Then why do people act like this will be the standard.[/quote]

The current state of the Minecraft run sets a bad precedent. Several members of the community have stated concerns about the run. Minecraft was in fact the top viewed run in AGDQ, and it raked in a good amount of cash. But the runners are under-prepared, under-practiced, under-motivated, subpar, and under-enthused about their speedgame, and speedgaming as a whole.

I've gone through the Twitch vods and I've found 1 completed run:

Original Estimate: 2:00
http://www.twitch.tv/giantwaffle/b/593759141 - Nov 29th, 2:12

12 minutes over estimate, the only run I see on either channel in the past 60 days (I can't go into anything past that for reference.) If I recall correctly, before this 60 day period they did a 1:4X (which they used in the submission for the game) and did a 1:5X after that in early July. No evidence, but this is what I've seen in the time I followed the two of them and the concerns were initially brought up by the members of the community. Single player random-seed [b]on a harder difficulty is HALF THE TIME of their best run. [/b]

( Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB9VoPGAXtQ ) Another issue is that they play on the current patch. What if a patch gets dropped between now and AGDQ that chances how the game is played? They'd be even LESS practiced.

I'm gonna do a play by play of all the red flags we see regarding this run:
-GiantWaffle and BaconDonut have done no practice, just runs (see below)
-GiantWaffle and BaconDonut have done a minimal amount of runs (3)
-The game/category itself is volatile because world gen can just bend you over
-The Co-Op run has a significantly longer time than the best run
-They're behind position 4 (in solo) on the leaderboard by over 20 minutes

Are they the only ones not practicing? No. 
Have they put enough work to be even considered for a GDQ? I don't think so.

tekkie

2014-12-01 08:12:49 pm

~

do they not have SDA accounts? they can come here and defend themselves, it's not like they're above the community or something

TheMG2

2014-12-01 08:26:38 pm

My problem here is entirely with this:

Quote:

Have they put enough work to be even considered for a GDQ? I don't think so.

I made a stupid post in the submissions thread, and got clarified that it is assumed that during the submission process that those everyone who submitted any game will put in the same amount of work in and will put in the practice. He will check up on practice during this period, not before.

My problem is entirely with the idea that the run should have been rejected in the first place because "they haven't put enough work in", when it isn't one of the requirements for any submission in the first place.

Miles

2014-12-01 08:29:46 pm

And what exactly does that have to do with the situation now...? It seems more like you're arguing for the sake of arguing at the moment.

Bismuth

2014-12-01 08:42:30 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Quote from tekkie:

do they not have SDA accounts? they can come here and defend themselves, it's not like they're above the community or something

I'd be surprised if they cared enough to do that.

zastbat

2014-12-01 08:43:42 pm

Lord Of The Beards

why does everyone want minecraft to be cut? I think a trainwreck and an empty room would be better to watch than any actual speedruns.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-12-01 08:55:38 pm

2014-12-01 08:55:13 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from zastbat:

why does everyone want minecraft to be cut? I think a trainwreck and an empty room would be better to watch than any actual speedruns.

People generally seem to be more upset with the fact that (or at least it seems like) mike isn't taking this very seriously and isn't addressing the problem (at least publicly); it's somewhat evident, for example, he didn't look at the video link deuceler joked about and assumed it was a new route.

TheMG2

2014-12-01 09:05:53 pm

I wonder why mike doesn't take this seriously? It's not like the speedrunning community has pointless drama every week.

doicm

2014-12-01 09:08:42 pm

I was just curious if the two Minecraft runners are still coming to AGDQ.

Deuceler

2014-12-01 10:23:26 pm

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

The bottom line is this:

There was a time that in order to get into a GDQ, you had to be in the top-tier of the game you were running. Not having a "WR", but at least being DAMN good at what you did with a knowledge of the game that would allow you to adapt during the marathon setting. There are many games that are still held up to this standard and SHOULD be. Read the SDA motto on the front page, "Playing through games quickly, skillfully and legitimately." This is what all the runners here pride themselves on and practice for countless hours trying to achieve. The fact that some of us (and by no means all of us) have the opportunity to showcase our run in front of 50-100,000 people is an honor and one that you must work hard to obtain.

Having two people come into our community and showcase their game at one of these events who have no business being here
(and don't want to be ) is not only a slap in the face to everyone runner who submitted a game and got rejected, but it is comprising the integrity of the event in the first place. It's not about Minecraft - I'm sure almost every person in this thread has played that game and enjoyed it - it's the fact that two people who are not speed runners and contribute nothing to speed running are getting a 2 hour time slot that they don't deserve. People are insulted by it, and the fact that we get no response as to why this was acceptable is even more insulting. We are one month out from AGDQ and these guys have done one run in the last 6 months that was over estimate and show no signs of even trying to improve, tell me about how they are being held to the normal SDA standard

The bottom line is this:

There was a time that in order to get into a GDQ, you had to be in the top-tier of the game you were running. Not having a "WR", but at least being DAMN good at what you did with a knowledge of the game that would allow you to adapt during the marathon setting. There are many games that are still held up to this standard and SHOULD be. Read the SDA motto on the front page, "Playing through games quickly, skillfully and legitimately." This is what all the runners here pride themselves on and practice for countless hours trying to achieve. The fact that some of us (and by no means all of us) have the opportunity to showcase our run in front of 50-100,000 people is an honor and one that you must work hard to obtain.

Having two people come into our community and showcase their game at one of these events who have no business being here 
(and don't want to be ) is not only a slap in the face to everyone runner who submitted a game and got rejected, but it is comprising the integrity of the event in the first place. It's not about Minecraft - I'm sure almost every person in this thread has played that game and enjoyed it - it's the fact that two people who are not speed runners and contribute nothing to speed running are getting a 2 hour time slot that they don't deserve. People are insulted by it, and the fact that we get no response as to why this was acceptable is even more insulting. We are one month out from AGDQ and these guys have done one run in the last 6 months that was over estimate and show no signs of even trying to improve, tell me about how they are being held to the normal SDA standard

Trogdor

2014-12-01 11:02:56 pm

I am unsure if I will be able to attend AGDQ and even if I will be able to, I will not be playing X3 at any point before the event.

My time is a little over 2 minutes behind Falco's at this point and it would be difficult for me to catch up.

SpootyBiscuit

Edit history:

SpootyBiscuit: 2014-12-02 06:49:26 am

SpootyBiscuit: 2014-12-01 11:37:32 pm

2014-12-01 11:32:15 pm

Couple things about the Descent run:

1) I understand not wanting to make this a race considering how disorienting everything is and how much will likely need to be explained/commentated, but it's ultimately irrelevant because...
2) Justis has informed me that he will not be at AGDQ and was asking me how to pull out his run proposal. I told him to send you a message here about it, but I'm not sure he even has an account on the boards here.
3) If possible, I'd like to change the category from Trainee any% to Hotshot any%. Hotshot has been my primary focus lately and has made me much better at the game - to the point where Trainee runs pretty much feel like a rather uninteresting exercise of flying from key to key while robots watch from the sidelines. It's a much more interesting run when the enemies aren't all half-braindead. I can abuse quick-saves and/or setup safety saves in advance to prevent major time-loss if anything goes horribly wrong as a result of the higher difficulty. I'm fairly confident that with all the practice I'll be putting in, I'll still be able to make the 46 minute estimate I'd set for the Trainee run - for reference, my current bests are 40:58 for Trainee and 43:20 on Hotshot.

Couple things about the Descent run:

1) I understand not wanting to make this a race considering how disorienting everything is and how much will likely need to be explained/commentated, but it's ultimately irrelevant because...
2) Justis has informed me that he will not be at AGDQ and was asking me how to pull out his run proposal. I told him to send you a message here about it, but I'm not sure he even has an account on the boards here.
3) If possible, I'd like to change the category from Trainee any% to Hotshot any%. Hotshot has been my primary focus lately and has made me much better at the game - to the point where Trainee runs pretty much feel like a rather uninteresting exercise of flying from key to key while robots watch from the sidelines. It's a much more interesting run when the enemies aren't all half-braindead. I can abuse quick-saves and/or setup safety saves in advance to prevent major time-loss if anything goes horribly wrong as a result of the higher difficulty. I'm fairly confident that with all the practice I'll be putting in, I'll still be able to make the 46 minute estimate I'd set for the Trainee run - for reference, my current bests are 40:58 for Trainee and 43:20 on Hotshot.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-12-02 12:25:41 am

Quote from SpootyBiscuit:

I'd like to change the category from Trainee any% to Hotshot any%
...
It's a much more interesting run when the enemies aren't all half-braindead.

Wording this, Hotshot is where it's at.

NewAgeRetroHippie

2014-12-02 12:27:21 am

something something minecraft guys should be held to same standards other runners are

why does this even need paragraphs to explain?

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-12-02 01:58:09 pm

Quote from NewAgeRetroHippie:

something something minecraft guys should be held to same standards other runners are

why does this even need paragraphs to explain?

Quote from NewAgeRetroHippie:

something something minecraft guys should be held to same standards other runners are

why does this even need paragraphs to explain?

Because they aren't.

rudyxx

2014-12-02 03:23:11 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I vote we find 2 actual speedrunners and convince them to practice minecraft instead. That way the game gets in the marathon, and 2 people that know what they are doing actually show off a decent run.