Sonic Adventure 2 Hero/Dark Story

Edit history:

Galactic: 2006-09-30 06:56:48 pm

2006-09-30 06:55:13 pm

There are two problems with a Segmented Run.

#1) Playing the Knuckles stages (of which there are five) possibly 20,000 times (not an exagguration) just to get a second off a Run of this length? That seems a bit extreme for a full game run. That's taking the definition of "luck manipulation" too far. The point is that perfectly optimising all five of them, plus the rest of the Stage, could take literally years for one Run.

#2) There's no way of proving that you're continuing on the same save file. Someone could easily manipulate that by doing individual Stage runs at different times. Unless, of course, the run used less Segments than there are save opportunities (say, five segments, allowing the player to save before each Knuckles stage other than the first).

Segmenting is fine in some games. This game isn't really Segment-compatible. In my view (this is an opinion, which is why it isn't included above), repeatedly doing a Stage until "the stars align" for the item locations isn't my idea of an entertaining run, unless it's an SS stand-alone Run of one individual Stage. There's just no point in doing a full Run.

There are two problems with a Segmented Run.

#1) Playing the Knuckles stages (of which there are five) possibly 20,000 times (not an exagguration) just to get a second off a Run of this length? That seems a bit extreme for a full game run. That's taking the definition of "luck manipulation" too far. The point is that perfectly optimising all five of them, plus the rest of the Stage, could take literally years for one Run.

#2) There's no way of proving that you're continuing on the same save file. Someone could easily manipulate that by doing individual Stage runs at different times. Unless, of course, the run used less Segments than there are save opportunities (say, five segments, allowing the player to save before each Knuckles stage other than the first).

Segmenting is fine in some games. This game isn't really Segment-compatible. In my view (this is an opinion, which is why it isn't included above), repeatedly doing a Stage until "the stars align" for the item locations isn't my idea of an entertaining run, unless it's an SS stand-alone Run of one individual Stage. There's just no point in doing a full Run.

Groudon199

2006-09-30 09:03:34 pm

Quote:

There are two problems with a Segmented Run.

#1) Playing the Knuckles stages (of which there are five) possibly 20,000 times (not an exagguration) just to get a second off a Run of this length? That seems a bit extreme for a full game run. That's taking the definition of "luck manipulation" too far. The point is that perfectly optimising all five of them, plus the rest of the Stage, could take literally years for one Run.

#2) There's no way of proving that you're continuing on the same save file. Someone could easily manipulate that by doing individual Stage runs at different times. Unless, of course, the run used less Segments than there are save opportunities (say, five segments, allowing the player to save before each Knuckles stage other than the first).

Segmenting is fine in some games. This game isn't really Segment-compatible. In my view (this is an opinion, which is why it isn't included above), repeatedly doing a Stage until "the stars align" for the item locations isn't my idea of an entertaining run, unless it's an SS stand-alone Run of one individual Stage. There's just no point in doing a full Run.

There is no way to manipulate luck so every piece is real close, even on a TAS run. For the ideal combination, you have to get the pieces in 3-2-1 order, since if you get piece 1 first, the game looks for locations piece 2 can appear that are close to where you got the 1st piece and never puts the piece in those spots. It doesn't happen with 3-2-1 order, but 1-2-3 order would be the only possible way to clear it on a full run.

And the ideal combination is odd for one level on the Dark story. On Security Hall, the ideal combination is 3 (45 degrees to the right in the middle of the fans), 2 (in the robot ahead at the start), 1 (in the robot ahead at the start). Not even a TAS run can do this.

So what I'm saying is this game's better off with individual level runs (exluding hunting mission 1s, due to their randomness and lack of an ideal combination without numerous deaths).

[quote]There are two problems with a Segmented Run.

#1) Playing the Knuckles stages (of which there are five) possibly 20,000 times (not an exagguration) just to get a second off a Run of this length? That seems a bit extreme for a full game run. That's taking the definition of "luck manipulation" too far. The point is that perfectly optimising all five of them, plus the rest of the Stage, could take literally years for one Run.

#2) There's no way of proving that you're continuing on the same save file. Someone could easily manipulate that by doing individual Stage runs at different times. Unless, of course, the run used less Segments than there are save opportunities (say, five segments, allowing the player to save before each Knuckles stage other than the first).

Segmenting is fine in some games. This game isn't really Segment-compatible. In my view (this is an opinion, which is why it isn't included above), repeatedly doing a Stage until "the stars align" for the item locations isn't my idea of an entertaining run, unless it's an SS stand-alone Run of one individual Stage. There's just no point in doing a full Run.[/quote]

There is no way to manipulate luck so every piece is real close, even on a TAS run.  For the ideal combination, you have to get the pieces in 3-2-1 order, since if you get piece 1 first, the game looks for locations piece 2 can appear that are close to where you got the 1st piece and never puts the piece in those spots.  It doesn't happen with 3-2-1 order, but 1-2-3 order would be the only possible way to clear it on a full run.

And the ideal combination is odd for one level on the Dark story.  On Security Hall, the ideal combination is 3 (45 degrees to the right in the middle of the fans), 2 (in the robot ahead at the start), 1 (in the robot ahead at the start).  Not even a TAS run can do this.

So what I'm saying is this game's better off with individual level runs (exluding hunting mission 1s, due to their randomness and lack of an ideal combination without numerous deaths).

SadisticMystic

2006-09-30 09:10:18 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I've done segmented runs for all hunting stages, and it's not nearly that tedious. The greatest number of tries I've put into an improvement was 1501 for Death Chamber. That level's Chao mission took more tries to get right, and there isn't a random element there. Simple levels (I'm thinking of Aquatic Mine and Security Hall) should go down in 200 tries or less.

For #2, what could be gained from playing levels out of order that can't be done in a regular 16-segment run? If you're using something like bounce in Metal Harbor, that's easily noticeable and caught.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2006-09-30 09:42:39 pm

2006-09-30 09:41:40 pm

Nothing. Except added convenience which isn't permitted.

Groudon199, I think you've slightly misunderstood me. Luck manipulation and probability manipulation are two separate things, contrary to popular belief. True, you cannot manipulate the probability of a certain object appearing in a certain location (probability). You can, however, spend an indefinite amount of retries waiting for this to happen (relying on luck). I do agree that the game is definitely better suited to individual Stage Speed Runs.

Not aiming at anyone in particular here: There's also the time factor. (Ignore this bit if you don't have college, work, food, sleep, toilet needs or anything else to consume your time and can devote your life to playing). Probability is a funny thing. If something has a 99.99% chance of happen, it could still not happen. Now, if the theoretical probability of something working is, say, 1/2000, that's 0.05%, or, turned around, a 99.95% chance of it not happening. Quitting and re-entering to avoid time penalties in a Speed Run comprised of more than just that one Stage (if we're talking about playing by similar rules to Sonic Adventure here) could take about 35 seconds, if you're quick. 35 X 2000 = 70000. One full 24-hour period is 86400 seconds. Add to that re-trying it to improve your time, and...well, do the rest.

Nothing. Except added convenience which isn't permitted.

Groudon199, I think you've slightly misunderstood me. Luck manipulation and probability manipulation are two separate things, contrary to popular belief. True, you cannot manipulate the probability of a certain object appearing in a certain location (probability). You can, however, spend an indefinite amount of retries waiting for this to happen (relying on luck). I do agree that the game is definitely better suited to individual Stage Speed Runs.

Not aiming at anyone in particular here: There's also the time factor. (Ignore this bit if you don't have college, work, food, sleep, toilet needs or anything else to consume your time and can devote your life to playing). Probability is a funny thing. If something has a 99.99% chance of happen, it could still not happen. Now, if the theoretical probability of something working is, say, 1/2000, that's 0.05%, or, turned around, a 99.95% chance of it not happening. Quitting and re-entering to avoid time penalties in a Speed Run comprised of more than just that one Stage (if we're talking about playing by similar rules to [I]Sonic Adventure[/I] here) could take about 35 seconds, if you're quick. 35 X 2000 = 70000. One full 24-hour period is 86400 seconds. Add to that re-trying it to improve your time, and...well, do the rest.

yoshmaster5

2006-09-30 10:15:07 pm

Also tenkiforecast

That's what I meant, segmenting before Knux's stages. *except WC, obviously*

X9

2006-09-30 10:29:09 pm

hai yah

Well a segmented run wouldn't have to make them completely perfect(for example, 1 second on wild canyon) but just decent. I'd still rather a single segment though, because it would overall look alot better if you do good on the tougher stages near the end.

The boss strategies have helped alot, Only king boom boo and rogue seem to be the biggest problems.

I figure a final possibility for him(for someone who is good at it) would be to attempt the quad hit, and if they fail they could restart the fight and still save abit of time compared to 1-3 or 2-2

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2006-09-30 10:51:19 pm

2006-09-30 10:42:47 pm

Well, if you're willing to put the time in, then go for it.

King Boom Boo, just try to beat him in two (or three, if you must) rounds. It's directly after Death Chamber, so I won't blame you.

Now, for little Rouge, it all depends on whether or not you can beat her before the flaming pit opens. This is directly after Meteor Herd, which doesn't make things any easier. Saving AFTER Meteor Herd as well might be a good idea.

Your best bet is to Drill Drive her before the pit opens. Of course, if the pit does open, the terrible floating controls and Rouge's unfair ability to use Black Wave to her hearts' (all four of them) content make attacking her at this point very difficult. She will also either play keep-away or climb the structure's towers and Drill Drive you while she's at it, unless she's using Black Wave, in which case she only moves just enough to avoid you. I think her A.I. is programmed to avoid you unless she can attack you. In other words, if that pit opens, it'll bust (pun not intended) your attempt. You'll need to re-start if you want a good time with her (please don't interpret that the wrong way...).

Well, if you're willing to put the time in, then go for it.

King Boom Boo, just try to beat him in two (or three, if you must) rounds. It's directly after Death Chamber, so I won't blame you.

Now, for little Rouge, it all depends on whether or not you can beat her before the flaming pit opens. This is directly after Meteor Herd, which doesn't make things any easier. Saving AFTER Meteor Herd as well might be a good idea.

Your best bet is to Drill Drive her before the pit opens. Of course, if the pit does open, the terrible floating controls and Rouge's unfair ability to use Black Wave to her hearts' (all four of them) content make attacking her at this point very difficult. She will also either play keep-away or climb the structure's towers and Drill Drive you while she's at it, unless she's using Black Wave, in which case she only moves just enough to avoid you. I think her A.I. is programmed to avoid you unless she can attack you. In other words, if that pit opens, it'll bust (pun not intended) your attempt. You'll need to re-start if you want a good time with her (please don't interpret that the wrong way...).

mike89

2006-10-01 01:24:40 am

SEGA Junkie

Rouge can be done in about 20 seconds with relative ease.

Consider the following:

Pick up a ring and get hit. This for whatever reason makes Rouge vulnerable, so attack quickly and get a ring before you become vulnerable again, then get hit again, rinse and repeat.

Should get you something below 25 seconds (which is roughly how long it takes for the flame pit to open), with a decent margin for error. Even if you only get three hits before it opens, it's not the end of the world anyway.

Saestrol

2006-10-01 01:43:45 am

Speed Running Joy-bringer

If the pit DOES open, it's not completely over (if you are lucky anyway...). She does play keep-away, but if she is moving over while rotaing about the pillars, she is vulnearble.

When you are being pushed by a gust of wind, you are actually able to glide out of it. All you have to do, is catch Rouge while she's floating over and Drill Drive her.

Galactic

2006-10-01 03:54:25 pm

If you try to glide out of the updraft (you'll need to be toward the edge of the arena to do that), you'll need to position yourself exactly to take her out. Drill Driving her while she's in the updraft rarely works reliably, because she's roughly level with you and the Drill Drive is cancelled as soon as the updraft gets you again.

X9

Edit history:

X9: 2006-10-02 07:49:21 am

2006-10-02 06:17:27 am

hai yah

both rogue strategies work great, I got 18 seconds, shouldn't be that hard to get under 30 consistantly.

I did a practice run tonight:

#1 CE: 2:09 (Worst run ever?)

#B1 Bigfoot: 0:25

#2 WCanyon- 1:05

#B2 Egg1- 0:18 (bad aim)

#3 PLane- 2:01

#4 Mharbor- 1:41(screwed up alot)

#B3 Shadow- 0:21

#5 GForest- 1:48(loads of stuff went wrong :/)

#6 Pumpkin hill- 1:51(Very lucky here, usually it takes
5+ minutes)

#7 Mission street: 2:40

#8 AQMine- 1:58 (decent,one piece was right by the level 3 drain switch)

#9 R101: 2:21 hit a few cars, but can't really complain about this. (2:21 is actual time, not completion time that cuts off a second for some reason)

#10 Hidden base- 2:14

#11 Pyramid cave- 2:09 very nice except the the beginning.

#12 Death chamber: 2:50(I think i got a good route, this run was bad though)

#B4 King Boom boo- 1:43 (2+2)
#B5- Golem 1:54- Wow.. he did his longer attacks that he doesn't usually do,I usually get him below 1:20 every time.

#13 Et Engine- 3:38 Heh I died 9 times here due to not knowing what to do , but I think I got it down now.

#14 Metor herd- 3:31 Luckiest run ever?

#B6 Rogue- 0:42 not bad I guess

#15 Crazy Gadget- 2:16

#B7 Eggman2- 0:24

#16 Final Rush 2:45 Died once because I tried to jump to fast

#B8 Shadow2 1:04 While doing this I think I found a easy way to get the last 2 hits, which is great.

both rogue strategies work great, I got 18 seconds, shouldn't be that hard to get under 30 consistantly.

I did a practice run tonight:

#1 CE: 2:09 (Worst run ever?)

#B1 Bigfoot: 0:25

#2 WCanyon- 1:05

#B2 Egg1- 0:18 (bad aim)

#3 PLane- 2:01

#4 Mharbor- 1:41(screwed up alot)

#B3 Shadow- 0:21

#5 GForest- 1:48(loads of stuff went wrong :/)

#6 Pumpkin hill- 1:51(Very lucky here, usually it takes 
5+ minutes)

#7 Mission street: 2:40

#8 AQMine- 1:58 (decent,one piece was right by the level 3 drain switch)

#9 R101: 2:21 hit a few cars, but can't really complain about this. (2:21 is actual time, not completion time that cuts off a second for some reason)

#10 Hidden base- 2:14

#11 Pyramid cave- 2:09 very nice except the the beginning.

#12 Death chamber: 2:50(I think i got a good route, this run was bad though)

#B4 King Boom boo- 1:43 (2+2)
#B5- Golem 1:54- Wow.. he did his longer attacks that he doesn't usually do,I usually get him below 1:20 every time.

#13 Et Engine- 3:38 Heh I died 9 times here due to not knowing what to do , but I think I got it down now.

#14 Metor herd- 3:31 Luckiest run ever?

#B6 Rogue- 0:42 not bad I guess

#15 Crazy Gadget- 2:16

#B7 Eggman2- 0:24

#16 Final Rush 2:45 Died once because I tried to jump to fast

#B8 Shadow2 1:04 While doing this I think I found a easy way to get the last 2 hits, which is great.

X9

Edit history:

X9: 2006-10-02 06:25:31 am

2006-10-02 06:24:42 am

hai yah

I've also come up with these final target times for the real run, think they're good as they are or should some go lower?

CE- 2:02
Bigfoot- 0:30
WC- 1:00
Egg1- 0:17
PLane- 2:02
Mharbor- 1:38
GForest- 1:50
PHill- 3:00
Mission Street- 2:40
AQMine- 2:30
R101- 2:22
Hidden base- 2:15
Pyramid Cave- 2:15
Dchamber- 3:00
King boom boo- 2:00
Golem- 1:25
Et Engine- 3:40
MHerd- 5:00
Rogue- 0:45
Crazy Gadget- 2:20
Egg2- 0:28
Final rush- 2:50
Shadow 2- 0:50

petrie911

2006-10-02 06:32:56 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

I'd say that your meteor herd time is way too loose, but that late in the run, it's best to just take anything. I don't think you'll ever reach 5:00 in a run. My worst Mad Space run was only 3:45, for comparison.

I can't see Pumpkin Hill taking THAT long, but you should probably do some test runs of it to find out.

X9

2006-10-02 07:06:04 am

hai yah

yeah they are set high, but those levels give me alot of trouble, maybe if I play them abit more i'll learn the layouts better. btw petie, how's your Dark Story coming along? and more importantly, what targets are you aiming for on shadow's levels? (since they have the most action)

petrie911

2006-10-02 11:23:46 pm

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

less than 2:00 on Radical highway is preferred, although anything less than 2:10 is good. Again, around 2:00 for White Jungle. Around 1:00 (preferrably less) for Sky Rail. And less than 4:00 for final Chase

I hate Final Chase so much. I always have. the gravity tubes suck, and it's so easy to screw up and die.

Incidentally, the biggest run killer is Sand ocean. There are so many hard jumps in that that can go horribly wrong, and you save 5 seconds by taking a death, and considerably more if you don't use ridiculously hard tricks.

X9

Edit history:

X9: 2006-10-03 12:38:57 am

2006-10-03 12:16:18 am

hai yah

Sounds pretty good, can't wait to see it.

Overall those targets shouldn't be that hard, Radical highway can be tricky though because if you jump at the wrong time/angle of any of the shortcuts you'll probably die, and sometimes you fall right through the suspension cables on the bridge for no reason, even if your lined up with them :/

The final chase is set abit high, but I guess that's to take into consideration loads of things can go wrong here, like slowing down/stopping on the damn cylinders for no reason. I assume you've watched F-Man's 2:33 video to know all the shortcuts and tricks used.

Anyway, I found a slightly different way to do prison lane and metal harbor, sub 2 can easily happen on prison lane, I got 1:57 and 1:58 during practice and 1:34 on metal harbor.

petrie911

2006-10-03 01:11:33 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

I've figured out a way to get most of those tricks with 100% success. I think it's a little slower than TSC's way, but it works for me. Either that or it's the same and I just forgot...>_>

Also, I am aware of all the tricks in Final Chase. But I will not necessarily use them all, especially the one right after the 4th checkpoint (I think it's 4th). I simply cannot get the jump down, so I'll just eat the 10 second loss and skip it. My usual time in Final chase is around 3:30, but at that point in a run, I'll pretty much accept anything that's deathless.

BTW, Pumpkin hill should go down in about 1:45 easy. I know that that may sound like a tall order, but a little practice and clue memorization can make that better. Same goes for Aquatic Mine.

Anyway, good luck. Once these runs are done, we can finally have individual level times and NG+ runs.

Sandbag29

2006-10-03 10:21:31 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Isn't this game even more unforgiving than the original?

Good Luck. You'll need it 8oP

395 pointless posts. Only 5 more to go!

X9

Edit history:

X9: 2006-10-04 01:11:44 am

2006-10-04 01:11:19 am

hai yah

thanks, I wish you luck as well, espcially on rogues horrendous hunting levels.

1:45 is abit steep, but I got a new idea that I think is pretty good to save alot of time, i'm writing down all the hints then where to go, making it so I only need one hint during the real run instead of 2, and i'll have an idea of where to go.

For example here's what I got on pumpkin hill so far:

skull marks the spot: church mountain- Near top by Train and skull

Forgotten Hut: Ghost Train Mountain- Up Left from the train

Path Of the ghost train/on the tracks: On the train path on church mountain

Angels Ring/Mountain with ghost face: one of the pumpkin towers-

Double containers: Ghost Train mountain, far left of the train inside 2 boxes

Person your waiting for arrived: far down on pumpkin mountain, by the train tracks

Pumpkin Snowman/Rocky wall: All the way at the bottom of pumpkin mountain, by pumpkins and hint

Sad eyes pumpkin/Same as Ghost face but dig in the left eye

obviosly I can't get them all, but I think it'll be a big help if I get most of them.

thanks, I wish you luck as well, espcially on rogues horrendous hunting levels.

1:45 is abit steep, but I got a new idea that I think is pretty good to save alot of time, i'm writing down all the hints then where to go, making it so I only need one hint during the real run instead of 2, and i'll have an idea of where to go.

For example here's what I got on pumpkin hill so far:

[i]skull marks the spot: church mountain- Near top by Train and skull

Forgotten Hut: Ghost Train Mountain- Up Left from the train

Path Of the ghost train/on the tracks: On the train path on church mountain

Angels Ring/Mountain with ghost face: one of the pumpkin towers-

Double containers: Ghost Train mountain, far left of the train inside 2 boxes

Person your waiting for arrived: far down on pumpkin mountain, by the train tracks

Pumpkin Snowman/Rocky wall: All the way at the bottom of pumpkin mountain, by pumpkins and hint

Sad eyes pumpkin/Same as Ghost face but dig in the left eye[/i]

obviosly I can't get them all, but I think it'll be a big help if I get most of them.

petrie911

2006-10-04 04:55:57 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

The one thing you gotta remember is that the same clue can lead to different places on different emeralds. Makes Dry Lagoon and Security Hall rather hideous...

SadisticMystic

2006-10-04 06:44:08 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I've made a file that lists all the hints in Wild Canyon. http://soniccenter.org/sm/files/sa2huntwc.txt It only gives the hints, not directions on where to go to get the pieces, but the 3rd hints listed are pretty much giveaways. It's missing 3 of the locations for piece 1, but I suspect the missing ones to be exact duplicates of existing locations I've documented. This is why I'm looking for the debug code (for NTSC Dreamcast SA2); this will put diagnostic information on the screen to include enumeration of the pieces so that I can put a complete count on them once and for all. And when I get that code, I'll move on to mapping out the other eight stages.

Xtra

2006-10-08 03:18:17 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

On Shadow II, I slow down and let him get ahead of me (but I don't completely stop). Once I hear him say whatever he says before he fires the Chaos Spear, I start rushing forward. the Chaos spear totally misses, and I hit him.

X9

2006-10-08 05:11:41 am

hai yah

yeah that's what i've been doing for the last 2 hits, it works great.

oh, and does anyone know if using the death trick on Crazy gadget would be banned? it's where you jump on top of the box by the goal and you die, but if you move quickly enough you can still hit the goal ring and doing so saves alot of time.

SadisticMystic

2006-10-08 07:11:51 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The end of Crazy Gadget takes place in open space. However, the back wall of the goal chamber is supposed to be solid (at least on one side), so I can't imagine that would be allowed, not to mention I've always found that method incredibly inconsistent and probably ill-advised for such a late point in the run. My preferred method (getting onto the yellow block, falling to the back, and shooting up through the floor) would likely not be allowed either. It's probably best to stick with the safe method of walking off the edge of the block and hitting the switch mid-fall, so as to avoid confrontations with would-be fake walls.

F-Man

Edit history:

F-Man: 2006-10-08 07:24:45 am

2006-10-08 07:22:10 am

Passing through walls and floors is allowed, but doing the trick at the end might label the run death-abusable.

Also

Quote:

My preferred method (getting onto the yellow block, falling to the back, and shooting up through the floor)

If by that, you mean doing a super bounce to go under the floor of the last platform, that's actually faster than entering from behind. I don't see why most people never just use that method instead. I believe it still abuses death though, for a split second (from the moment you fall up through the floor until you touch the ring). But you don't exit the level boundaries by doing so for sure.