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Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Sonic3Knuckles.html
Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Any %) (Single Segment) [Co-Op]
Verifier Responses
Decision: Accept
Congratulations to Mark 'werster' McKenzie & Mike 'mike89' McKenzie!
Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Any %) (Single Segment) [Co-Op]
Verifier Responses
Quote:
A/V good, no cheating, the time of 30:05 is correct. Very impressive co-op run from mike89 and werster, they have shown just how broken this game can be and just how quickly it can be done in. Easy accept! A shame about the death in Death Egg 2, though.
Quote:
A/V: Fine
Cheating: None, just a legitimate dose of mind-blowing!
Time: 30:05, measured by adding all of the Act times together. If the second Eggman part, after the Final Boss in Death Egg timer stops, counts though, then add +4 or 5 seconds, I guess.
Overall, this run looks very well done. Mike and Mark really know how to work together on this game and it shows! Some glitches that were new for me include the Wheel Glitch in Carnival Night, Mushroom 1 zip, possibly slope glitch in Flying Battery (I may have seen it in Mike's solo run and just forgot what it looked like) and the Death Egg zip. Again, great run and I can definitely accept it!
Decision: Accept... preferably before someone else gets the sub-30!
Cheating: None, just a legitimate dose of mind-blowing!
Time: 30:05, measured by adding all of the Act times together. If the second Eggman part, after the Final Boss in Death Egg timer stops, counts though, then add +4 or 5 seconds, I guess.
Overall, this run looks very well done. Mike and Mark really know how to work together on this game and it shows! Some glitches that were new for me include the Wheel Glitch in Carnival Night, Mushroom 1 zip, possibly slope glitch in Flying Battery (I may have seen it in Mike's solo run and just forgot what it looked like) and the Death Egg zip. Again, great run and I can definitely accept it!
Decision: Accept... preferably before someone else gets the sub-30!
Quote from Tiberius:
Right, let's get this on.
First off, the usual: A/V look as good as expected, no issues here. No cheating detected, although to make a bad pun/banter: Werster playing anything is surely counted as 'tool' assisted. Hur hur hur. Love you really.
Level by level commentary:
AI1: Actually a very poor start to the run, I'm kinda surprised you kept this as even though the time isn't terrible there are a lot of nasty looking errors, failing to get the bouce on the monkey thing and having to break the rock after the midboss. Like I say, decent time overall though. (0:48)
AI2: Breaking the Water Shield box as the music transitions makes it go away completely, a nice fun trick. Solid level from Sonic, Tails doesn't really get to do much in here as it's a level where the Water and Lighning specials really come into their own. Pretty smooth with no glaring errors. (1:30)
HC1: Lovely jump up to the top path, this is a stellar route and well executed, the runner knows the timing of the moving platforms will be perfect and makes use of that accordingly. Great level. (0:47)
HC2: Necessary death goes as expected, no Knux kill plane here unfortunately. Moving wall glitch executed perfectly, perfect boss, mere frames off a 32, very nice indeed. (0:31+0:07)
MG1: Tails waiting allows him to respawn at the right time for the flight into the top path. Verticle screenwrap and using the spring to push into the wall and zip is faster than the other method, goes well as the spring can troll occasionally. Lost some seconds on the boss as Tails wasn't around to deliver the one-round kill but it's not too much of a biggie. (0:55)
MG2: Again Tails not keeping up costs a few seconds, when he respawns it goes smoothly to the boss though. The boss was... well, pretty awful really in honesty. Loses approx 8 seconds here by not getting the quick kill. Not the best level in all but acceptable. (0:56)
CN1: Wheel glitch executed fine. Horizontal Underflow goes perfectly too. Tails kills the boss so as to keep the wheel glitch through the next act. Nice and easy. (0:43)
CN2: Wheel glitch manipulations are so much fun in this stage. Bypasses the bumpers perfectly, everything first try. Three tries to get the knux cutscene skip, that's not bad at all though. Really smooth level again. (1:14)
IC: No act 1 or 2 here, the madness of the slope glitch and the way the acts are set up gets in the way somewhat. This setup for the skip is slightly slower than the other but waaaaay more consistent for Sonic therefore abslutely fine in my opinion. Zip from the corridor to the boss of act 2 goes fine, some manipulation is needed while in the loopback here but it all goes well. Slope glitch used to quick kill boss. Very nicely executed level. (1:33)
LB1: Yet another horizontal underflow, Tails speeds the process up somewhat. Not entirely sure why the runners draw the boss(es) off to the side like that, it's not necessary at all, but then again it wastes no time either. The death at the end causes you to respawn in the start of act 2 with no time loss. (0:40)
LB2: At the beginning of this stage Werster attempts a level skip which requires a perfect 6-button spindash (you need to release the frame after the final rev, very hard to do) followed by a 2-frame accurate jump for a zip. He does not get it but given the difficulty of this trick that is no issue whatsoever on the quality of the run as a whole. The alternate/normal strat for the level goes well, including *almost* getting up to the top path without Tails, which is insanely hard, I've done it once ever. Boss is utterly demolished by the two-character combination. (1:28)
MH1: Oh god this zip sucks so much. It's insanely tough to set up, incredibly accurate and not only that but it's sub-pixel perfect so you can get it right and still fail. First try is insanely good here. Boss is a standard 3-3. Getting the shield box sucks, lucky it's not counted in the timing. Funny to watch though. (0:39)
MH2: No frame-perfect jump at the top of when knux blows you up, reject. Very very smooth looking level. I personally find this one of the most fun levels to run as it just looks so good when you get it right. The runners got it right. (1:13)
FB1: You are the dancing queen! God knows what even happens with this glitch but it's hilarious. Takes a while to get into the wall, loses some seconds but not too bad. Zip proper goes fine. Stop hitting youself boss. (1:19)
FB2: This is a difficult and intricate zip to set up and it goes pretty well, could maybe have been a second or two faster but very much acceptable. Lots of waiting around for the boss while the metallic fragments posing as clouds float by in the breeze. (1:24)
SO1: Lots of Tails use in this level to get to faster paths. A bit embarrassing at :40 or so. Cycles play relatively nice given the time lost. Stop killing yourself boss. Wastes some time to set up the cycle in the next level. (2:17)
SO2: A very long, very execution heavy level. No matter what you do it looks kinda slow but this route is certainly the best barring a very silly fire shield strat that is just luck based anyway. Very very ugly at around 1:20 with several failed catches, maybe 10 seconds or more lost right there. An overall pretty shoddy level really, at least the boss goes well. (2:46)
LR1: A slow start due to the horrible terrain in this level. Tails opens the faster path, no problems there. Boss goes very well, another one that having two players really helps for. (1:53)
LR2: Switch time! The stairs clip plus double spindash at the end is Mike's forte as Werster is used to doing it on keyboard not console so characters are swapped for this level. 2nd try clip and 3rd try exit is good. (1:35)
HP: Pretty standard level. Doesn't get the knux fight glitch which wastes several seconds. (0:39)
SS: Misses the spring but gets the lightning from below which is harder than it looks. 2 fails getting up to the final teleporter looks pretty bad. Mecha-Sonic falls pretty easily. (1:08)
DE1: Not too much to say for most of this, route is excellent and level is pretty smooth. Red-eye is the worst boss in Sonic. Both forms go as well as possible really. (1:37)
DE2: Again, death is necessary.This is another ridiculuosly tough one to set up, getting it wrong once is a shame but not entirely unexpected, second try is still more than fine in my opinion. Boss is standard. To think I used to get confused by this guy as a kid, for shame. Final boss goes very well, the strat here is quite beautiful. And of course, the Trihex to finish. (1:50+0:04+0:29)
Total time: 30:05
Verdict: Now in all honesty, for a lot of runs this would be borderline for me. There are levels that are really quite sloppy and which could theoretically be much improved. But the operative word here is *theoretically*. This game has boundless small tricks to it to save time along with an insane amount of huge glitches which are anything but easy to pull off. And getting two people who know the game well enough to make these runs is one in a million. As is getting all the tricks to work in a run together. So which this is potentially improvable by quite some time and I wish the runners had had more time to work on it, this is still an ACCEPT from me.
Great work guys.
P.S. As they will almost certainly know who this is from the detail/style there's no reason for me to hide that this is Tiberius.
First off, the usual: A/V look as good as expected, no issues here. No cheating detected, although to make a bad pun/banter: Werster playing anything is surely counted as 'tool' assisted. Hur hur hur. Love you really.
Level by level commentary:
AI1: Actually a very poor start to the run, I'm kinda surprised you kept this as even though the time isn't terrible there are a lot of nasty looking errors, failing to get the bouce on the monkey thing and having to break the rock after the midboss. Like I say, decent time overall though. (0:48)
AI2: Breaking the Water Shield box as the music transitions makes it go away completely, a nice fun trick. Solid level from Sonic, Tails doesn't really get to do much in here as it's a level where the Water and Lighning specials really come into their own. Pretty smooth with no glaring errors. (1:30)
HC1: Lovely jump up to the top path, this is a stellar route and well executed, the runner knows the timing of the moving platforms will be perfect and makes use of that accordingly. Great level. (0:47)
HC2: Necessary death goes as expected, no Knux kill plane here unfortunately. Moving wall glitch executed perfectly, perfect boss, mere frames off a 32, very nice indeed. (0:31+0:07)
MG1: Tails waiting allows him to respawn at the right time for the flight into the top path. Verticle screenwrap and using the spring to push into the wall and zip is faster than the other method, goes well as the spring can troll occasionally. Lost some seconds on the boss as Tails wasn't around to deliver the one-round kill but it's not too much of a biggie. (0:55)
MG2: Again Tails not keeping up costs a few seconds, when he respawns it goes smoothly to the boss though. The boss was... well, pretty awful really in honesty. Loses approx 8 seconds here by not getting the quick kill. Not the best level in all but acceptable. (0:56)
CN1: Wheel glitch executed fine. Horizontal Underflow goes perfectly too. Tails kills the boss so as to keep the wheel glitch through the next act. Nice and easy. (0:43)
CN2: Wheel glitch manipulations are so much fun in this stage. Bypasses the bumpers perfectly, everything first try. Three tries to get the knux cutscene skip, that's not bad at all though. Really smooth level again. (1:14)
IC: No act 1 or 2 here, the madness of the slope glitch and the way the acts are set up gets in the way somewhat. This setup for the skip is slightly slower than the other but waaaaay more consistent for Sonic therefore abslutely fine in my opinion. Zip from the corridor to the boss of act 2 goes fine, some manipulation is needed while in the loopback here but it all goes well. Slope glitch used to quick kill boss. Very nicely executed level. (1:33)
LB1: Yet another horizontal underflow, Tails speeds the process up somewhat. Not entirely sure why the runners draw the boss(es) off to the side like that, it's not necessary at all, but then again it wastes no time either. The death at the end causes you to respawn in the start of act 2 with no time loss. (0:40)
LB2: At the beginning of this stage Werster attempts a level skip which requires a perfect 6-button spindash (you need to release the frame after the final rev, very hard to do) followed by a 2-frame accurate jump for a zip. He does not get it but given the difficulty of this trick that is no issue whatsoever on the quality of the run as a whole. The alternate/normal strat for the level goes well, including *almost* getting up to the top path without Tails, which is insanely hard, I've done it once ever. Boss is utterly demolished by the two-character combination. (1:28)
MH1: Oh god this zip sucks so much. It's insanely tough to set up, incredibly accurate and not only that but it's sub-pixel perfect so you can get it right and still fail. First try is insanely good here. Boss is a standard 3-3. Getting the shield box sucks, lucky it's not counted in the timing. Funny to watch though. (0:39)
MH2: No frame-perfect jump at the top of when knux blows you up, reject. Very very smooth looking level. I personally find this one of the most fun levels to run as it just looks so good when you get it right. The runners got it right. (1:13)
FB1: You are the dancing queen! God knows what even happens with this glitch but it's hilarious. Takes a while to get into the wall, loses some seconds but not too bad. Zip proper goes fine. Stop hitting youself boss. (1:19)
FB2: This is a difficult and intricate zip to set up and it goes pretty well, could maybe have been a second or two faster but very much acceptable. Lots of waiting around for the boss while the metallic fragments posing as clouds float by in the breeze. (1:24)
SO1: Lots of Tails use in this level to get to faster paths. A bit embarrassing at :40 or so. Cycles play relatively nice given the time lost. Stop killing yourself boss. Wastes some time to set up the cycle in the next level. (2:17)
SO2: A very long, very execution heavy level. No matter what you do it looks kinda slow but this route is certainly the best barring a very silly fire shield strat that is just luck based anyway. Very very ugly at around 1:20 with several failed catches, maybe 10 seconds or more lost right there. An overall pretty shoddy level really, at least the boss goes well. (2:46)
LR1: A slow start due to the horrible terrain in this level. Tails opens the faster path, no problems there. Boss goes very well, another one that having two players really helps for. (1:53)
LR2: Switch time! The stairs clip plus double spindash at the end is Mike's forte as Werster is used to doing it on keyboard not console so characters are swapped for this level. 2nd try clip and 3rd try exit is good. (1:35)
HP: Pretty standard level. Doesn't get the knux fight glitch which wastes several seconds. (0:39)
SS: Misses the spring but gets the lightning from below which is harder than it looks. 2 fails getting up to the final teleporter looks pretty bad. Mecha-Sonic falls pretty easily. (1:08)
DE1: Not too much to say for most of this, route is excellent and level is pretty smooth. Red-eye is the worst boss in Sonic. Both forms go as well as possible really. (1:37)
DE2: Again, death is necessary.This is another ridiculuosly tough one to set up, getting it wrong once is a shame but not entirely unexpected, second try is still more than fine in my opinion. Boss is standard. To think I used to get confused by this guy as a kid, for shame. Final boss goes very well, the strat here is quite beautiful. And of course, the Trihex to finish. (1:50+0:04+0:29)
Total time: 30:05
Verdict: Now in all honesty, for a lot of runs this would be borderline for me. There are levels that are really quite sloppy and which could theoretically be much improved. But the operative word here is *theoretically*. This game has boundless small tricks to it to save time along with an insane amount of huge glitches which are anything but easy to pull off. And getting two people who know the game well enough to make these runs is one in a million. As is getting all the tricks to work in a run together. So which this is potentially improvable by quite some time and I wish the runners had had more time to work on it, this is still an ACCEPT from me.
Great work guys.
P.S. As they will almost certainly know who this is from the detail/style there's no reason for me to hide that this is Tiberius.
Quote:
Audio: Good for the most part. There are a few issues though, such as Angel Island 2 where the background music doesn't load and then the wrong boss music plays in Hydrocity 2.
Video: Again similar to above, the in-game camera goes haywire on several occasions which is pretty distracting and there's even an instance where the sodding CLOUDS don't load properly. I think the McKenzie Bros should look at the cart they're using. Or maybe it's a side effect of the thousands of glitches, tricks, skips and teeny teeny timesavers, who knows
Cheating: Does being a McKenzie count as cheating? Probably not, I've met them and they are both surprisingly good at mimicking human appearances and behaviour, so that's fine.
The Run: Tiberius has covered it all pretty much - I've lost count of the number of streams and vods I've watched and seen these guys both hit and miss every single trick in the book. I agree that there are a lot of things missed here and the time can get lowered here by a fair bit, but as this is a co-op run before we can get any kind of improvement we'd need a new team to pick up this category. My personal favourite was DE1, actually one of the few glitchless levels (yes there are somehow SEVEN glitchless acts in this run, if you don't count audio/visual glitches that don't affect gameplay) in which I witnessed Tails grabbing Sonic while he was running at full speed and not stopping him, did not know that could happen!
.
I will happily Accept this run for SDA because it's a massive improvement of the run already on the site, incredibly well executed and a joy to watch. Rather cunningly, it's improvable and pretty obvious which bits are improvable too so hopefully that will encourage another duo to take on the challenge - however my acceptance comes under the condition that the final run is posted with audio commentary and that the commentary should be the two runners arguing about who screwed up what area (so basically whatever was going on during the run itself)
Time-wise I'm happy with 30:05 which is what you get if you add up all the level times. It's been well established that in a sonic game the "between stage" bits don't count against final time because going down that road you hit all kinds of crap about it being faster to finish a stage slower due to time bonuses and the like. However, I'd like some clarification on the final time though as there are almost 20 seconds between delivering the final hit on the DE2 boss that stops the timer, but then you have to deliver another 8 hits on Robotnik as he escapes (and the Tri-Hex, while risky and potentially KILLING the run, does make this faster) - should this be counted?
Either way, fantastic job on the run gents.
Video: Again similar to above, the in-game camera goes haywire on several occasions which is pretty distracting and there's even an instance where the sodding CLOUDS don't load properly. I think the McKenzie Bros should look at the cart they're using. Or maybe it's a side effect of the thousands of glitches, tricks, skips and teeny teeny timesavers, who knows
Cheating: Does being a McKenzie count as cheating? Probably not, I've met them and they are both surprisingly good at mimicking human appearances and behaviour, so that's fine.
The Run: Tiberius has covered it all pretty much - I've lost count of the number of streams and vods I've watched and seen these guys both hit and miss every single trick in the book. I agree that there are a lot of things missed here and the time can get lowered here by a fair bit, but as this is a co-op run before we can get any kind of improvement we'd need a new team to pick up this category. My personal favourite was DE1, actually one of the few glitchless levels (yes there are somehow SEVEN glitchless acts in this run, if you don't count audio/visual glitches that don't affect gameplay) in which I witnessed Tails grabbing Sonic while he was running at full speed and not stopping him, did not know that could happen!
.
I will happily Accept this run for SDA because it's a massive improvement of the run already on the site, incredibly well executed and a joy to watch. Rather cunningly, it's improvable and pretty obvious which bits are improvable too so hopefully that will encourage another duo to take on the challenge - however my acceptance comes under the condition that the final run is posted with audio commentary and that the commentary should be the two runners arguing about who screwed up what area (so basically whatever was going on during the run itself)
Time-wise I'm happy with 30:05 which is what you get if you add up all the level times. It's been well established that in a sonic game the "between stage" bits don't count against final time because going down that road you hit all kinds of crap about it being faster to finish a stage slower due to time bonuses and the like. However, I'd like some clarification on the final time though as there are almost 20 seconds between delivering the final hit on the DE2 boss that stops the timer, but then you have to deliver another 8 hits on Robotnik as he escapes (and the Tri-Hex, while risky and potentially KILLING the run, does make this faster) - should this be counted?
Either way, fantastic job on the run gents.
Decision: Accept
Congratulations to Mark 'werster' McKenzie & Mike 'mike89' McKenzie!
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