[SNES] Spider-Man/X-Men: Arcade's Revenge

2010-12-01 03:59:52 am

I'm working on speedrunning this game. I'm pretty new here but I've been examining the forums, watching a lot of speedruns of other games, and trying to familiarize myself with all the lingo and methods used in speedrunning. Has anyone tried speedrunning this before? I've tried searching the forum, and the internet, but the closest thing I found was a five-part no-death run on Youtube that is clearly not speed-intensive. If anyone knows any tricks or has any tips for me that'd be helpful. I've been playing this game a lot in the past two months and I am optimizing level strategies near-daily(especially on Spider-man's stages). Would anyone be interested in seeing this?

I don't own an SNES yet but I'm going to get one for Christmas along with this game(I used to own it as a child and couldn't even beat any stage after the intro Spidey one) so I've been practicing on an emulator for now. I might post videos later of me playing some of the levels but I'll wait until I'm more comfortable with my times. I'm not sure what the time estimate for me is, as I haven't tried a SS run of it yet with all my optimized strategies. I might fiddle around with this sometime this morning to give a good estimate of what I think a good time might be. Would really enjoy some input though!

Thread title:

I'm working on speedrunning this game.  I'm pretty new here but I've been examining the forums, watching a lot of speedruns of other games, and trying to familiarize myself with all the lingo and methods used in speedrunning.  Has anyone tried speedrunning this before?  I've tried searching the forum, and the internet, but the closest thing I found was a five-part no-death run on Youtube that is clearly not speed-intensive.  If anyone knows any tricks or has any tips for me that'd be helpful.  I've been playing this game a lot in the past two months and I am optimizing level strategies near-daily(especially on Spider-man's stages).  Would anyone be interested in seeing this?

I don't own an SNES yet but I'm going to get one for Christmas along with this game(I used to own it as a child and couldn't even beat any stage after the intro Spidey one) so I've been practicing on an emulator for now.  I might post videos later of me playing some of the levels but I'll wait until I'm more comfortable with my times.  I'm not sure what the time estimate for me is, as I haven't tried a SS run of it yet with all my optimized strategies.  I might fiddle around with this sometime this morning to give a good estimate of what I think a good time might be.  Would really enjoy some input though!

Heidrage

2010-12-01 06:10:02 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

Me and some others were talking about this not too long ago. It is a great game and would be super fun to watch. I would really like updates on new stuff you find and what not. If you can provide vids of anything, I will be more than willing to help with either pointers, tips, or new strats. But be cautious, "Heid strats" are EVIL and can ruin a great run if failed. Most anyone who watches my stream can vouch for that as I have failed many many times. But the end rewards are worth it.

He's Dead Jim!

2010-12-01 10:55:10 am

Love to see a speedrun of this game. Its been in the request threads for a while too. I could never complete Wolverines stage against Juggernaut though. Good luck with that Tongue

Emptyeye

2010-12-05 07:59:25 pm

Talk to the Hand

I thought about doing this, but it's not high on my life's priority list right now. Would like to see a run of it though!

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-07 09:24:07 am

I completed a play through a few days ago and have started to upload the videos here if you're interested in watching them:

http://www.youtube.com/user/6uckfay6ouyay6#p/c/636AE1825C3B3F83

My time to complete the game was 70 minutes from opening screen to final scene. I'm sure that speed runners can do it in under an hour. I'm working on trying to get 1 Million points (with only one attempt per level), and that should be closer to the 90-120 minute range.

I used to play this A LOT on the SNES when I was younger, but could never complete it. I reached the final stage once and died so close to actually completing the game. When you get your SNES Micinity, let me know if the Gambit glitch is there. The one where if you're hit with a bullet with full health, it removes ALL of your health. I've experienced this on the emulator, but for the life of me I couldn't remember if this happened with the cartridge game as well.

Good luck with your speed run on the game. Post any/all videos for it, since I would like to see how you do with this very challenging game. Smiley

I completed a play through a few days ago and have started to upload the videos here if you're interested in watching them:

http://www.youtube.com/user/6uckfay6ouyay6#p/c/636AE1825C3B3F83

My time to complete the game was 70 minutes from opening screen to final scene.  I'm sure that speed runners can do it in under an hour.  I'm working on trying to get 1 Million points (with only one attempt per level), and that should be closer to the 90-120 minute range.

I used to play this A LOT on the SNES when I was younger, but could never complete it.  I reached the final stage once and died so close to actually completing the game.  When you get your SNES Micinity, let me know if the Gambit glitch is there.  The one where if you're hit with a bullet with full health, it removes ALL of your health.  I've experienced this on the emulator, but for the life of me I couldn't remember if this happened with the cartridge game as well.

Good luck with your speed run on the game.  Post any/all videos for it, since I would like to see how you do with this very challenging game.  :)

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-10 03:26:07 pm

Looks like someone has actually done a speed run of sorts for this game:

http://www.youtube.com/user/bubufubu#p/c/84B8D3F6D2F6F756

About 55 minutes.

Micinity

Edit history:

Micinity: 2010-12-10 03:28:53 pm

2010-12-10 03:26:10 pm

Thank you all for you responses. I will be trying to get some videos soon, not sure when I'll get around to doing that, but mostly I've been waiting until I get the actual hardware to continue on with optimization. As an estimate based on how I'm doing on each individual level, I estimate a time around the 30 minute range, and lower if I can execute them with a decent ratio of success.

Small notes regarding Spider-man: Spider-man is the only character where speed-boosting from enemies or their projectiles is of any use. Another thing to note is if you hold the jump button when hit by an enemy or their projectile Spider-man will go up even further, giving you some control as to the height that you gain. Can be very helpful in certain places.

Due to this and Spider-man's web-slinging and wall-climbing, I have found many places to exploit and speed up the elapsed time it takes me to get through a level. His levels are honestly the most enjoyable in this process. Storm's being the least enjoyable.

There are several areas where I'm looking for ways to speed up time even further: Wolverine's second stage(the Juggernaut), Spider-man's first stage end-boss, and perhaps even Storm's areas but I've focused little on those and that will just be tedious time-optimization and looks to have little tricks to help.

Hopefully I'll have some videos soon as I'm ready to show my strategies and see where room for improvement is. Heidman, if you have any strats , be sure to tell me upon loading of my videos. I'm looking to make sure I make something worthwhile with this speedrun.

Edit: Yes, that is the no-death run I mentioned in the OP. It's fair as a measure of play, but it's too cautious and doesn't attempt any optimizations for speed.

Thank you all for you responses.  I will be trying to get some videos soon, not sure when I'll get around to doing that, but mostly I've been waiting until I get the actual hardware to continue on with optimization.  As an estimate based on how I'm doing on each individual level, I estimate a time around the 30 minute range, and lower if I can execute them with a decent ratio of success.

Small notes regarding Spider-man: Spider-man is the only character where speed-boosting from enemies or their projectiles is of any use. Another thing to note is if you hold the jump button when hit by an enemy or their projectile Spider-man will go up even further, giving you some control as to the height that you gain.  Can be very helpful in certain places.

Due to this and Spider-man's web-slinging and wall-climbing, I have found many places to exploit and speed up the elapsed time it takes me to get through a level.  His levels are honestly the most enjoyable in this process.  Storm's being the least enjoyable.

There are several areas where I'm looking for ways to speed up time even further: Wolverine's second stage(the Juggernaut), Spider-man's first stage end-boss, and perhaps even Storm's areas but I've focused little on those and that will just be tedious time-optimization and looks to have little tricks to help.

Hopefully I'll have some videos soon as I'm ready to show my strategies and see where room for improvement is.  Heidman, if you have any strats , be sure to tell me upon loading of my videos.  I'm looking to make sure I make something worthwhile with this speedrun.

Edit:  Yes, that is the no-death run I mentioned in the OP.  It's fair as a measure of play, but it's too cautious and doesn't attempt any optimizations for speed.

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-10 03:30:12 pm

LOL, we posted at the same time. Cheesy

As for your request for speeding up Wolverine's second stage:

Oh, it's a no-death run...isn't that the same as a speed run?

Micinity

2010-12-10 03:41:56 pm

It's just not speed-run optimized. It wouldn't, as far as I'm aware, meet SDA standards at all as I've seen them. Also knowing the game and its levels as well as I do now, he misses a lot of simple places where he could speed his time up more without SDA tricks, such as in Cyclops's and Storm's levels. Especially Storm's where he spends a lot of time hoarding the air she requires and making absolutely sure he doesn't die and ends up spending more time in her levels than is easily required.

I've seen that video, and it's not that I don't know how to beat Juggernaut, there are just certain things I need to know in order to cut down time. I don't want Juggernaut dead by the end of the stage, I want him dead ASAP. I've heard there are ways to use emulators to judge the amount of health an enemy has and the amount of damage you do to it. The Juggernaut is felled at the end by a claw, so this means Wolverine does some amount of damage without the anvils, but how much of it is useful? It's really hard to measure seeing as there is no visible health bar for the boss. Ah well, will need to put down more time for it.

It's just not speed-run optimized.  It wouldn't, as far as I'm aware, meet SDA standards at all as I've seen them.  Also knowing the game and its levels as well as I do now, he misses a lot of simple places where he could speed his time up more without SDA tricks, such as in Cyclops's and Storm's levels.  Especially Storm's where he spends a lot of time hoarding the air she requires and making absolutely sure he doesn't die and ends up spending more time in her levels than is easily required.

I've seen that video, and it's not that I don't know how to beat Juggernaut, there are just certain things I need to know in order to cut down time.  I don't want Juggernaut dead by the end of the stage, I want him dead ASAP.  I've heard there are ways to use emulators to judge the amount of health an enemy has and the amount of damage you do to it.  The Juggernaut is felled at the end by a claw, so this means Wolverine does some amount of damage without the anvils, but how much of it is useful?  It's really hard to measure seeing as there is no visible health bar for the boss.  Ah well, will need to put down more time for it.

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-10 04:09:30 pm

I've played the second stage for Wolverine a LOT, and the level itself is bizarre. For example, I've killed Juggernaut by the last pillar three times, yet in those three times I dropped a different amount of weights on his body. 9, 11, and then 14. So one would think if 9 was enough to kill him, why isn't 14 enough to kill him much sooner? Juggernaut always seems to die right before the pit (from what I've seen and on other videos) so maybe the game is programmed to allow the claws to kill him if a certain amount of weights have made contact? Or if a large amount of claw strikes have hit him as well (if you just cut the weights down and don't drop them on Juggernaut's body).

I was just curious about whether or not the claws were doing damage, so I made a video of just weights making contact with minimal claw attacks and was shocked to see that A) I killed Juggernaut and B) That I did it so quickly. If you're able to complete the level in a faster time, then you are much better than me at this game. Cheesy

Cyclops is limited to the dumb cart, so that will make the time slower, but then again no one else can go any faster either (unless they cheat). Storm has a few spots where air comes out from the ground where a clam is (I'm sure that you know this) so that should help you out. You probably also know that killing the first Boss for Storm is easiest when you just go down to the bottom and attack. Have you timed yourself yet on a play through from beginning to end yet to get an idea of your times?

Oh, one more thing. On Gambit's first level...right before you do the jump and fight the Boss there is a spot that is blocked by some red blocks (that can be destroyed by cards) and it has some items for points, a deck of cards, and a ball item that makes the spiked ball go backwards). I can never jump up high enough to reach the items. Can these be reached or are they there just to trick you into thinking that they can be used?

I've played the second stage for Wolverine a LOT, and the level itself is bizarre.  For example, I've killed Juggernaut by the last pillar three times, yet in those three times I dropped a different amount of weights on his body.  9, 11, and then 14.  So one would think if 9 was enough to kill him, why isn't 14 enough to kill him much sooner?  Juggernaut always seems to die right before the pit (from what I've seen and on other videos) so maybe the game is programmed to allow the claws to kill him if a certain amount of weights have made contact?  Or if a large amount of claw strikes have hit him as well (if you just cut the weights down and don't drop them on Juggernaut's body).

I was just curious about whether or not the claws were doing damage, so I made a video of just weights making contact with minimal claw attacks and was shocked to see that A) I killed Juggernaut and B) That I did it so quickly.  If you're able to complete the level in a faster time, then you are much better than me at this game.  :D

Cyclops is limited to the dumb cart, so that will make the time slower, but then again no one else can go any faster either (unless they cheat).  Storm has a few spots where air comes out from the ground where a clam is (I'm sure that you know this) so that should help you out.  You probably also know that killing the first Boss for Storm is easiest when you just go down to the bottom and attack.  Have you timed yourself yet on a play through from beginning to end yet to get an idea of your times?

Oh, one more thing.  On Gambit's first level...right before you do the jump and fight the Boss there is a spot that is blocked by some red blocks (that can be destroyed by cards) and it has some items for points, a deck of cards, and a ball item that makes the spiked ball go backwards).  I can never jump up high enough to reach the items.  Can these be reached or are they there just to trick you into thinking that they can be used?

Micinity

2010-12-10 07:05:29 pm

Thanks for the deconstruction of Juggernaut's stage. Kind of tips I was looking for. I'll toy around with it, I guess at this point it's fair to say the best strategy is to see what the little amount of damage I can do by the end to still destroy him.

Also Cyclops has a lot of areas especially in his first stage that allow for a cleaner, more efficient way of getting through them(and lesser amounts of cart-riding). On the boss for Storm, you can just skip him if you go down and come up and go right fast enough. I've never actually destroyed him because I can bypass him which is much quicker. I haven't yet timed a full run-through because a lot of areas where I'm speeding up time require pretty healthy execution and I'm not to the level where I can do it decently enough in all areas for a comprehensive run-through. Mostly waiting to do that until I own the system, so I'm used to the controller interface more. I'm sure my input will change up a bit once getting the actual hardware.

About that area I'm not certain, looks like another tease(sort of like the one in Gambit's other stage where if you go up the wrong way you get crushed and die but it gives you full health and cards). There's a sense of playfulness in design like that which is one of the things I enjoy about this game.

Thanks for the deconstruction of Juggernaut's stage.  Kind of tips I was looking for.  I'll toy around with it, I guess at this point it's fair to say the best strategy is to see what the little amount of damage I can do by the end to still destroy him.

Also Cyclops has a lot of areas especially in his first stage that allow for a cleaner, more efficient way of getting through them(and lesser amounts of cart-riding).  On the boss for Storm, you can just skip him if you go down and come up and go right fast enough.  I've never actually destroyed him because I can bypass him which is much quicker.  I haven't yet timed a full run-through because a lot of areas where I'm speeding up time require pretty healthy execution and I'm not to the level where I can do it decently enough in all areas for a comprehensive run-through.  Mostly waiting to do that until I own the system, so I'm used to the controller interface more.  I'm sure my input will change up a bit once getting the actual hardware.

About that area I'm not certain, looks like another tease(sort of like the one in Gambit's other stage where if you go up the wrong way you get crushed and die but it gives you full health and cards).  There's a sense of playfulness in design like that which is one of the things I enjoy about this game.

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-11 10:44:13 am

I just tested out the lowest amount of weights that you can drop on Juggernaut, run to the end (while still cutting down weights for Juggernaut to run into), and then kill him...and it looks like 9 is the magic number. 6, 7, and 8 would not kill him with my claws before the pit (and I was clawing him right after the final wall that you cut down). So since my video had 14 hits, I might be able to complete it faster with only needing 9 hits. I'll have to time myself and see later.

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-11 12:23:42 pm

Since my above video was at 2 Minutes, 13 seconds (I timed it from the opening Wolverine screen to the end of the Wolverine screen when you complete the level) and had 14 hits I tried it with only 9 hits (with weights) and had a time of 2 Minutes, 1 Second. Just something for you to aim for. Smiley

BlueStarReturns

2010-12-17 10:41:47 am

Twinkle-Twinkle Lil' Star, har har!

I have gained some interest in this run.

Interestingly enough, there was a TAS in the works for this game, but according to the last date in the forum topic, it's been abandoned.

I played this game a bit on the Genesis version. However, never played the SNES version, so I wouldn't even know if they're the exact same game or not.

I'll try and look for some more helpful Videos and stuff, though. thumbsup

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-17 12:54:21 pm

BlueStar810:

If I were you, I'd go with the SNES version. I have never played the Genesis version, but have seen videos for it. My GOD is it crap! The music alone is enough to make me feel sorry for anyone who has the Genesis version, since the music for the SNES title is simply awesome! Smiley

I'm sure that the gameplay is the same, but the audio portions of the two are no way close to one another.

Not sure why someone would need to cheat to do a speedrun for this game...then again, I'm the type that says "Why cheat for a speedrun? Just learn the game and do it for real". I'm old though, so I'm sure that I'm in the minority for this way of thinking since TAS runs seem to be popular. Plus when I read about people doing so much work for a mere few SECONDS...it makes me laugh. Come one folks, those seconds are that important to you?!

PJ

2010-12-17 02:42:29 pm

Is PJ

Quote from Reaper Cloud:

Not sure why someone would need to cheat to do a speedrun for this game...then again, I'm the type that says "Why cheat for a speedrun? Just learn the game and do it for real". I'm old though, so I'm sure that I'm in the minority for this way of thinking since TAS runs seem to be popular. Plus when I read about people doing so much work for a mere few SECONDS...it makes me laugh. Come one folks, those seconds are that important to you?!

Seconds are always important! I changed routes for several of my levels in Actraiser 2 just to cut 1-2 seconds off. And that's a 47 minute run. Speed runners love cutting seconds!

However, once we talk about cutting "frames", then I have the same opinion. That's just silly. Tongue

(sorry, Tompa!)

BlueStarReturns

2010-12-17 04:08:33 pm

Twinkle-Twinkle Lil' Star, har har!

@Reaper Cloud

Forgive me. When I said I have gained interest in this game, I didn't mean speedrunning it... at least not right now.

Sadly, I lost interest after the intro Spidey stage because... well, let's just say I didn't like games kicking me in the face when I was a kid Wink

I fully tolerate it nowadays because it gives me more drive to beat the bloody thing.

I probably could try picking this up somewhere, but I'd be no use in attempting runs due to lack of completing the game. Who knows though?

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-17 10:01:15 pm

It's cool, I was just going off of your comment about TAS and ranted about how some people (not particularly you) don't mind to cheat on speedruns. Smiley

The game is challenging, and most levels are more of a pain in the ass than the Spider-Man intro, so you might have your hands full. Cheesy

Do you have any type of SNES Emulator for your PC? Maybe you should test/try the game on that first before wanting to spend money on the game. It would suck to spend money on the game and have flashbacks to your childhood and how cheap the game can be (gameplay wise). Wink

Micinity

2010-12-18 06:36:06 am

Well I don't find TAS to mean that someone is trying to cheat their way with a speed-run. They are two different types of crafts. This is not a discussion meant for this thread though. Anyways, the Genesis version and SNES version are wildly different. I've played around with both, and the game-play is different on a basic level. It's a terribly bad port, unfortunately. The genesis version just lacks a lot of the polish the SNES version has. The fact that there was an attempt to TAS the game does interest me though. Can you link the thread?

Also I am going to care about seconds very much in my speed-run.

BlueStarReturns

Edit history:

BlueStarReturns: 2010-12-18 12:00:10 pm

2010-12-18 11:59:17 am

Twinkle-Twinkle Lil' Star, har har!

@Micinity

http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1359&highlight=

EDIT: Last post was in '07, though, so there may have been a lot more tricks found by now. Still worth a read.

@Reaper Cloud

I have tried each of the X-Men characters' stages, but got repeatedly owned. I'd only consider picking it up for collection purposes.

Micinity

2010-12-18 02:54:10 pm

Thank you! This is sort of like a gold-mine, although only in a few direct ways. There are two videos in the thread, one an early highly unpolished TAS attempt of the whole game done in about 30 minutes. this confirms my general time estimate, and even better this seemed to be an underestimate of my perception of time since due to the highly unpolished nature of the first one the strategies i had were saving a lot more time than his. especially in cyclop's first level, gambit's levels and spider'man's levels. his storm level works as a general outline(seeing as i've put little time in her levels) but he also spends time on the boss that i know doesn't need to be fought at all. overall this puts my estimate as closer to the 25-27 minute range.

I was much more pleased with the second video although its demonstration ends at the end of the Juggarnaut level(which gives a great strategy for defeating him in a more expedient manner.) I was most pleased by how he seemed to be using most of speed-boosting tricks in spider-man's stages that I was, and maneuvering through them in much the same route which gives me more confidence in my attitude and direction with speed-running this game. I wish I could ahve seen more of his run as it would have given me more ideas

Also think Rhino and Carnage can be defeated quicker than both of the videos presented.

Thank you!  This is sort of like a gold-mine, although only in a few direct ways.  There are two videos in the thread, one an early highly unpolished TAS attempt of the whole game done in about 30 minutes.  this confirms my general time estimate, and even better this seemed to be an underestimate of my perception of time since due to the highly unpolished nature of the first one the strategies i had were saving a lot more time than his.  especially in cyclop's first level, gambit's levels and spider'man's levels.  his storm level works as a general outline(seeing as i've put little time in her levels) but he also spends time on the boss that i know doesn't need to be fought at all.  overall this puts my estimate as closer to the 25-27 minute range.

I was much more pleased with the second video although its demonstration ends at the end of the Juggarnaut level(which gives a great strategy for defeating him in a more expedient manner.)  I was most pleased by how he seemed to be using most of speed-boosting tricks in spider-man's stages that I was, and maneuvering through them in much the same route which gives me more confidence in my attitude and direction with speed-running this game.  I wish I could ahve seen more of his run as it would have given me more ideas

Also think Rhino and Carnage can be defeated quicker than both of the videos presented.

Reaper Cloud

2010-12-29 10:04:43 am

Just wanted to know if you were still going to do the speedrun and how it was progressing. Smiley

Maybe Santa didn't find the game or the SNES for you at Christmas. 0_0

Reaper Cloud

2011-01-14 03:32:09 pm

I forgot about this for a while and decided to see if anything has been updated...looks like it hasn't.

I just might do my own speedrun for fun, since I'm not about to buy a SNES just for one game to be "official" on this site.

Oh, I was able to cut some time off of the second stage for Wolverine. I'm down to 1 Minute, 45 Seconds. I'm timing the level at the beginning of when it starts, and when it ends. I'm not adding the title cards that show up before and after the level. My old time was about 2 Seconds longer...so I'm not going to try and get any faster with this one. It would be a waste. lol

Brandon

2011-06-12 05:23:49 pm

It's all about da fonk.

I might give this a shot. I am in the process of polishing my TAS of it, which comes out to be roughly 24 and a half minutes. The only level that I think I can do fairly optimally unassisted is the Juggernaut level, though I'll tell you right now...the strategy in the video provided is far from it. His damage system is really weird. His HP starts at 24. Until the very end, claws do nothing. Anvils take 4 HP on the head, other weights take 2 HP, and both take 1 if he runs into them. He cannot go under 2 HP until the very end. So, the strategy I employed for the TAS was to hit him with 7 anvils, one weight, and one claw. I use the two anvils at the end that are close to eachother to reduce the amount of time he is stunned. I also detonate all of the exploding blocks that he would run into as these blocks push him back a few pixels.