Sly Cooper and the Thievius Raccoonus

2008-11-18 10:13:43 am

I've started thinking I might want to try to do an any% single segmented run of this game. I'd be the first game I would be speed running, and I thought it'd be a good choice since I'm already familiar with it. I also figured an any% run would serve as a more gentle introduction to speed running.

So far I've been messing around with the game up to beating the first boss, but I think I need to practice more with the rolling =)

Thread title:

QuestionMark

2008-11-19 10:52:33 pm

I ended up using a stopwatch and made a crude estimation against trihex's time trial runs in the first zone (Tides of Terror), the boss fight, and time wandering around between levels. Using my crude estimate I think that without the roll I'm currently three minutes or so behind him, though roll will make a difference and he had some save warping that I couldn't take into account. Still have to practice with the roll though and I'll be able to retime myself. I also need more practice to help ensure less mistakes.

So far I've found a one or two time saving tricks that trihex didn't do in his run that'll hopefully cut down on the time in my any% run. An example is that outside "A Cunning Disguise", If jumping diagonally across the window you don't have to stop running to and hide. You can just jump over the window and kill the guard rather then lose a few seconds waiting for him to turn around from his patrol. Also on "Into the Machine", You can jump directly from the pipe over the electric sawblades to the hook which saves both the time falling down from the hook and jumping up again to reconnect to the hook.

I don't think I'll be able to find many time savers trihex didn't used, but anything should help =P

I ended up using a stopwatch and made a crude estimation against trihex's time trial runs in the first zone (Tides of Terror), the boss fight, and time wandering around between levels. Using my crude estimate I think that without the roll I'm currently three minutes or so behind him, though roll will make a difference and he had some save warping that I couldn't take into account. Still have to practice with the roll though and I'll be able to retime myself. I also need more practice to help ensure less mistakes.

So far I've found a one or two time saving tricks that trihex didn't do in his run that'll hopefully cut down on the time in my any% run. An example is that outside "A Cunning Disguise", If jumping diagonally across the window you don't have to stop running to and hide. You can just jump over the window and kill the guard rather then lose a few seconds waiting for him to turn around from his patrol. Also on "Into the Machine", You can jump directly from the pipe over the electric sawblades to the hook which saves both the time falling down from the hook and jumping up again to reconnect to the hook.

I don't think I'll be able to find many time savers trihex didn't used, but anything should help =P

DRybes

2008-11-20 07:05:19 am

O Zlda?

http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,2785.0.html
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,4218.0.html

Tips there for you, possibly more if trihex decides to post in this thread.

trihex

2008-11-21 05:23:49 am

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Quote from QuestionMark:

I ended up using a stopwatch and made a crude estimation against trihex's time trial runs in the first zone (Tides of Terror), the boss fight, and time wandering around between levels. Using my crude estimate I think that without the roll I'm currently three minutes or so behind him, though roll will make a difference and he had some save warping that I couldn't take into account. Still have to practice with the roll though and I'll be able to retime myself. I also need more practice to help ensure less mistakes.

So far I've found a one or two time saving tricks that trihex didn't do in his run that'll hopefully cut down on the time in my any% run. An example is that outside "A Cunning Disguise", If jumping diagonally across the window you don't have to stop running to and hide. You can just jump over the window and kill the guard rather then lose a few seconds waiting for him to turn around from his patrol. Also on "Into the Machine", You can jump directly from the pipe over the electric sawblades to the hook which saves both the time falling down from the hook and jumping up again to reconnect to the hook.

I don't think I'll be able to find many time savers trihex didn't used, but anything should help =P

Ugh, I'm quite embarrassed with my extremely outdated 2005 segmented mess of a speedrun. I'm long overdue for redoing it entirely. The biggest flaw is the speedrun type itself. A 100% segmented run is dumb. I had to do Master Thief Sprints back-to-back to feel less guilty about the excess of segments in the run, overall lowering the quality of the Sprints themselves in favor of actually finishing the run quickly. This was done almost three years ago!. I was dumb and impatient then, and complete recording entirely within less than a week. It shows in some parts.

I do plan to eventually bump the proper thread, hopefully sometime in 2009 (After getting that damn any% Yoshi's Island table done) with an announcement of deleting my current 100% segmented run because it sucks and replacing it with a much more optimized any% segmented run, along with a Master Thief Sprint table!

That won't be for a while, so you're more than invited (and have my support) to do a any% segmented run. I haven't played Sly 1 in months, so I'd have to rewatch my speedrun to see what you're referring to concerning the time-savers you've discovered.

About your any%, I never finished route planning, but here's what I got so far:

1) Get Level 1's bottles and crack its safe (it's required to get the rolling ability)
2) Get "Fire Down Below" (Or whatever the hell it's called) bottles and crack its safe (acquired rolling)
Note: Rolling saves a lot of time, and will be required for later shortcuts
3) Rape everything else rather quickly via rolling everywhere and avoiding whatever's possible. Abusing lucky charms where carefully planned to (as opposed to whenever dumb luck granted it to me in the 100% segmented).

Again, I'm planning to get around to doing all this eventually. But if anyone want's to see this done within the next 6-8 months, QuestionMark, I'm here for support.

Quote from DRybes:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,2785.0.html
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,4218.0.html

Tips there for you, possibly more if trihex decides to post in this thread.

Seriously, are you getting any of my PMs that I sent you? I've been trying to get in touch with you! :S

[quote="QuestionMark"]
I ended up using a stopwatch and made a crude estimation against trihex's time trial runs in the first zone (Tides of Terror), the boss fight, and time wandering around between levels. Using my crude estimate I think that without the roll I'm currently three minutes or so behind him, though roll will make a difference and he had some save warping that I couldn't take into account. Still have to practice with the roll though and I'll be able to retime myself. I also need more practice to help ensure less mistakes.

So far I've found a one or two time saving tricks that trihex didn't do in his run that'll hopefully cut down on the time in my any% run. An example is that outside "A Cunning Disguise", If jumping diagonally across the window you don't have to stop running to and hide. You can just jump over the window and kill the guard rather then lose a few seconds waiting for him to turn around from his patrol. Also on "Into the Machine", You can jump directly from the pipe over the electric sawblades to the hook which saves both the time falling down from the hook and jumping up again to reconnect to the hook.

I don't think I'll be able to find many time savers trihex didn't used, but anything should help =P 
[/quote]

Ugh, I'm quite embarrassed with my [i]extremely [/i]outdated 2005 segmented mess of a speedrun. I'm long overdue for redoing it entirely. The biggest flaw is the speedrun type itself. A 100% segmented run is dumb. I had to do Master Thief Sprints back-to-back to feel less guilty about the excess of segments in the run, overall lowering the quality of the Sprints themselves in favor of actually finishing the run quickly. This was done almost[i] three years[/i] ago!. I was dumb and impatient then, and complete recording entirely within less than a week. It shows in some parts.

I do plan to eventually bump the proper thread, hopefully sometime in 2009 (After getting that damn any% Yoshi's Island table done) with an announcement of deleting my current 100% segmented run because it sucks and replacing it with a much more optimized any% segmented run, along with a Master Thief Sprint table!

That won't be for a while, so you're more than invited (and have my support) to do a any% segmented run. I haven't played Sly 1 in months, so I'd have to rewatch my speedrun to see what you're referring to concerning the time-savers you've discovered.

About your any%, I never finished route planning, but here's what I got so far:

1) Get Level 1's bottles and crack its safe (it's required to get the rolling ability)
2) Get "Fire Down Below" (Or whatever the hell it's called) bottles and crack its safe (acquired rolling)
Note: Rolling saves a lot of time, and will be required for later shortcuts
3) Rape everything else rather quickly via rolling everywhere and avoiding whatever's possible. Abusing lucky charms where carefully planned to (as opposed to whenever dumb luck granted it to me in the 100% segmented).

Again, I'm planning to get around to doing all this eventually. But if anyone want's to see this done within the next 6-8 months, QuestionMark, I'm here for support.

[quote="DRybes"]
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,2785.0.html
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,4218.0.html

Tips there for you, possibly more if trihex decides to post in this thread.
[/quote]

Seriously, are you getting any of my PMs that I sent you? I've been trying to get in touch with you! :S

QuestionMark

2008-11-21 01:37:09 pm

Are the bottles in the first level really "required", because the abilities I thought were gained purely by the number of safes currently cracked, so you'd get the rolling move on the second safe cracked despite which safes were opened. As an example I went and did one of the levels on Sir Raleigh's ship and was given the dive ability normally given on the first level. However, I then went back to the first level for the bottles and was given the roll ability.

Regardless, it'd probably be pretty stupid though to skip the first level's bottles simply because it takes almost no time to ensure they are all gained in contrast to other levels and you'd get the roll ability sooner =)

Also just to note another time saver in "Fires Down Below" for sprint run purposes, When running on the final "treadmill" to break into the conveyor belts at the end of the level its possible to save time by ignoring the spotlight. The second time it shines over the treadmill the spotlight's time converting from neutral to kill mode is enough that you can just keep running and break the door open. It saves maybe 3 seconds, but its still a few seconds =)

Are the bottles in the first level really "required", because the abilities I thought were gained purely by the number of safes currently cracked, so you'd get the rolling move on the second safe cracked despite which safes were opened. As an example I went and did one of the levels on Sir Raleigh's ship and was given the dive ability normally given on the first level. However, I then went back to the first level for the bottles and was given the roll ability.

Regardless, it'd probably be pretty stupid though to skip the first level's bottles simply because it takes almost no time to ensure they are all gained in contrast to other levels and you'd get the roll ability sooner =)

Also just to note another time saver in "Fires Down Below" for sprint run purposes, When running on the final "treadmill" to break into the conveyor belts at the end of the level its possible to save time by ignoring the spotlight. The second time it shines over the treadmill the spotlight's time converting from neutral to kill mode is enough that you can just keep running and break the door open. It saves maybe 3 seconds, but its still a few seconds =)

trihex

2008-11-22 11:13:13 am

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Quote from QuestionMark:

Are the bottles in the first level really "required", because the abilities I thought were gained purely by the number of safes currently cracked, so you'd get the rolling move on the second safe cracked despite which safes were opened. As an example I went and did one of the levels on Sir Raleigh's ship and was given the dive ability normally given on the first level. However, I then went back to the first level for the bottles and was given the roll ability.

Regardless, it'd probably be pretty stupid though to skip the first level's bottles simply because it takes almost no time to ensure they are all gained in contrast to other levels and you'd get the roll ability sooner =)

Also just to note another time saver in "Fires Down Below" for sprint run purposes, When running on the final "treadmill" to break into the conveyor belts at the end of the level its possible to save time by ignoring the spotlight. The second time it shines over the treadmill the spotlight's time converting from neutral to kill mode is enough that you can just keep running and break the door open. It saves maybe 3 seconds, but its still a few seconds =)

Yes, it doesn't matter what levels you do, the 2nd safe cracked will give you "roll" regardless of actual level. It makes no sense to wait. The two levels I mentioned have the fastest bottles (IMO), and you want roll ASAP since you'll be rolling around the "level select/swamp lair" thing whatever.

[quote="QuestionMark"]
Are the bottles in the first level really "required", because the abilities I thought were gained purely by the number of safes currently cracked, so you'd get the rolling move on the second safe cracked despite which safes were opened. As an example I went and did one of the levels on Sir Raleigh's ship and was given the dive ability normally given on the first level. However, I then went back to the first level for the bottles and was given the roll ability.

Regardless, it'd probably be pretty stupid though to skip the first level's bottles simply because it takes almost no time to ensure they are all gained in contrast to other levels and you'd get the roll ability sooner =)

Also just to note another time saver in "Fires Down Below" for sprint run purposes, When running on the final "treadmill" to break into the conveyor belts at the end of the level its possible to save time by ignoring the spotlight. The second time it shines over the treadmill the spotlight's time converting from neutral to kill mode is enough that you can just keep running and break the door open. It saves maybe 3 seconds, but its still a few seconds =)
[/quote]

Yes, it doesn't matter what levels you do, the 2nd safe cracked will give you "roll" regardless of actual level. It makes no sense to wait. The two levels I mentioned have the fastest bottles (IMO), and you want roll ASAP since you'll be rolling around the "level select/swamp lair" thing whatever.

QuestionMark

2008-12-07 05:47:01 pm

Mainly wanted to post to show I'm still working on this. I had about a week where I didn't have my PS2 and now I'm busy with finals in college. As a result I haven't had much time to make more progress, but nonetheless I feel I have finished practicing up to the first boss. I also have obtained the materials required to record the run and should have a lot of time coming up to play (Winter Break =D). Will post later with more concrete updates =)

QuestionMark

2008-12-08 09:24:06 pm

Today I did a time estimate for the first level before making a save file to practice the second level. I ended up bugging the game and falling through the world at the end, and didn't feel like redoing it again so take it as a crude estimate. Regardless I ended up going from the start of the introduction video at the Paris break in to beating Raleigh in roughly 28 minutes. It seems like a lot, but this section probably takes the longest since I have all those darn unskippable cutscenes explaining the whole backstory and everything. Quite honestly the cut scenes total to at least what feels like half of that time.

QuestionMark

2008-12-24 08:32:13 am

As an update, I seem to have some time during winter break and I'm almost done practicing both Mrs. Ruby and Mugshot. I have each of the individual levels down with a few small sections as exceptions, and mainly need to finalize my paths between the levels. I've also been toying with the geometry in mugshot's area trying to see what other shortcuts may be available. I've found a few interesting things in the level's geometry, but nothing I can apply yet. Just a few sections of the level I'm not supposed to be able to reach, but nothing that seems like it would speed up the run.

Okiyama(notloggedin)

2008-12-24 05:49:17 pm

I remember verifying trihex's run back in the day, good times.

trihex

2008-12-24 07:58:15 pm

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Quote from QuestionMark:

As an update, I seem to have some time during winter break and I'm almost done practicing both Mrs. Ruby and Mugshot. I have each of the individual levels down with a few small sections as exceptions, and mainly need to finalize my paths between the levels. I've also been toying with the geometry in mugshot's area trying to see what other shortcuts may be available. I've found a few interesting things in the level's geometry, but nothing I can apply yet. Just a few sections of the level I'm not supposed to be able to reach, but nothing that seems like it would speed up the run.

I'm really eager to hear of any new shortcuts or stuff that differs from my speedrun's path if you have anything like that to report. I don't think I ever mentioned the glitches in the roamable area outside Mugshot's casino (there's plenty):

You can use the crane to get outside world boundaries and fall infinitely. I've attempted to get outside boundaries in order to glitch inside the Casino somehow and skip all of World 2's levels, but I end up falling forever before I can reach the casino while outside bounds.

Quote from Okiyama(notloggedin):

I remember verifying trihex's run back in the day, good times.

If you say so, I'm approaching the point where I might be ready to do an ultra necrobump on my thread and get segments recorded! Cheesy

[quote="QuestionMark"]
As an update, I seem to have some time during winter break and I'm almost done practicing both Mrs. Ruby and Mugshot. I have each of the individual levels down with a few small sections as exceptions, and mainly need to finalize my paths between the levels. I've also been toying with the geometry in mugshot's area trying to see what other shortcuts may be available. I've found a few interesting things in the level's geometry, but nothing I can apply yet. Just a few sections of the level I'm not supposed to be able to reach, but nothing that seems like it would speed up the run.
[/quote]

I'm really eager to hear of any new shortcuts or stuff that differs from my speedrun's path if you have anything like that to report. I don't think I ever mentioned the glitches in the roamable area outside Mugshot's casino (there's plenty):

You can use the crane to get outside world boundaries and fall infinitely. I've attempted to get outside boundaries in order to glitch inside the Casino somehow and skip all of World 2's levels, but I end up falling forever before I can reach the casino while outside bounds.

[quote="Okiyama(notloggedin)"]
I remember verifying trihex's run back in the day, good times.
[/quote]

If you say so, I'm approaching the point where I might be ready to do an ultra necrobump on my thread and get segments recorded! :D

QuestionMark

2008-12-24 08:55:32 pm

At first I started trying to explain a lot of geometry things I was trying, but then realized it'd be impossible to understand from my cryptic explanations.

Rather than just try to list all the little geometry things I've been toying with at the moment in text, I'll wait till I get back to my dorm and then try to record some of them. That'd probably be a lot easier for me to both explain and for you to understand =)

In an unrelated note, I saw the sly voodoo doll at the title screen for Mr. Ruby's level and I'm now totally considering getting a plush custom made since surprisingly sly cooper plushes were never made =P

QuestionMark

Edit history:

QuestionMark: 2008-12-27 05:14:46 pm

2008-12-27 04:09:30 pm

Major progress today.

I found a way to COMPLETELY SKIP inside the police station and the Carmelita encounter before the intro to the backstory. Entirely, as in now I don't get a cut scene until I enter the van after the intro cut scene. I didn't even enter the police station. The glitches are a bit time consuming in itself but I think due to the length of cut scenes and everything it may be faster. I'm going to practice it further and see how fast I can cut down the length of this wonderful sequence of geometry abuse.

It was a bit time consuming since I had to not only beat the invisible barriers in the game, but the developers actually put a system in place to prevent someone from trying a similar method in case someone found a way to not go into the police station and attempted to find a way back into the intended game world to shove you back into the non-intended area of the world.

Got very excited when I discovered it ^.^

Edit: I just tried it again and after discovering its easy to tell that it is much easier. It shaves off a good amount of time.

Edit2: I found a second method thats a bit easier. Apparently the team accidentally left an invisible barrier with a hangable ledge (not only that, but left it so you could walk on it too). This means I can hang on one of the invisible barriers that are supposed to keep me out and then just jump over it back into the intended game world. Its still a lot faster than abusing the geometry I did it originally, but perhaps the methods to get past some invisible barriers can be used in other areas.

Major progress today.

I found a way to COMPLETELY SKIP inside the police station and the Carmelita encounter before the intro to the backstory. Entirely, as in now I don't get a cut scene until I enter the van after the intro cut scene. I didn't even enter the police station. The glitches are a bit time consuming in itself but I think due to the length of cut scenes and everything it may be faster. I'm going to practice it further and see how fast I can cut down the length of this wonderful sequence of geometry abuse.

It was a bit time consuming since I had to not only beat the invisible barriers in the game, but the developers actually put a system in place to prevent someone from trying a similar method in case someone found a way to not go into the police station and attempted to find a way back into the intended game world to shove you back into the non-intended area of the world.

Got very excited when I discovered it ^.^

Edit: I just tried it again and after discovering its easy to tell that it is much easier. It shaves off a good amount of time.

Edit2: I found a second method thats a bit easier. Apparently the team accidentally left an invisible barrier with a hangable  ledge (not only that, but left it so you could walk on it too).  This means I can hang on one of the invisible barriers that are supposed to keep me out and then just jump over it back into the intended game world. Its still a lot faster than abusing the geometry I did it originally, but perhaps the methods to get past some invisible barriers can be used in other areas.

QuestionMark

2008-12-27 07:15:03 pm

Found another method today to skip most of boneyard casino. Today has been a major breakthrough day for my run because I've found some very nice and reliable geometry exploits. The only thing is that I now have to be at least a little bit concerned with making sure I have a few more lucky charms along the way so I don't die in the process of exploiting the geometry.

trihex

2008-12-28 12:49:04 am

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Wow, I'm excited. I might wait to see your run before even considering an improvement to mine. Smiley

QuestionMark

2008-12-28 02:35:35 pm

I found a way to "skip" some of cut scenes. Regardless it will save at least a few seconds and a few shreds of sanity being warned about how I can press the square button to hit things.

QuestionMark

2009-01-04 05:22:24 pm

Wanted to give an update since its been a bit since I last posted. Since I've been busy during Winter Break in Orlando hanging out with friends, I haven't been playing Sly Cooper all that much. In all honesty I probably won't be able to play much until I get back from CES.

However, I figured I could go ahead and elaborate a bit on what I mean by being able to skip some of the cut scenes. An example that I think time-wise is in your advantage is the cut scene you see after getting the first five keys on Raleigh's level and knocking out the power generator. You can save some time by pausing immediately after the cut scene begins, going back to "A Cunning Disguise", exiting the level, and continuing the run from there.

Since you started the cut scene, it counts it as viewed and the game won't replay it. This however is not true if you saved during the cut scene, or tried to restart the same area. (from walking around Raleigh's area to the beginning of Raleigh's area again).

It however does not work for all cut scenes since it depends on length of the cut scene and distance you have to travel.

Wanted to give an update since its been a bit since I last posted. Since I've been busy during Winter Break in Orlando hanging out with friends, I haven't been playing Sly Cooper all that much. In all honesty I probably won't be able to play much until I get back from CES.

However, I figured I could go ahead and elaborate a bit on what I mean by being able to skip some of the cut scenes. An example that I think time-wise is in your advantage is the cut scene you see after getting the first five keys on Raleigh's level and knocking out the power generator. You can save some time by pausing immediately after the cut scene begins, going back to "A Cunning Disguise", exiting the level, and continuing the run from there.

Since you started the cut scene, it counts it as viewed and the game won't replay it. This however is not true if you saved during the cut scene, or tried to restart the same area. (from walking around Raleigh's area to the beginning of Raleigh's area again).

It however does not work for all cut scenes since it depends on length of the cut scene and distance you have to travel.

QuestionMark

2009-02-07 07:26:56 pm

I decided to go back and practice my all the shortcuts I have from the beginning of the game, to the end of Mrs.Ruby. Once I feel I have them down pact, I'm going to continue on the last two sections.

I know I'm mainly just talking to myself on here, but I've been using this kind of like a blog to keep myself working on the run so I can update it =P
Just trying to use it as a bit of a motivational trick so I don't put it off indefinitely.

trihex

2009-02-09 09:39:51 am

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

No. I'm very eager to see all these undiscovered shortcuts you've stumbled upon. Smiley

QuestionMark

2009-02-13 08:40:11 pm

Tonight I decided since I have my mac with me, I'm going to record kind of a "teaser video" which features some of the tricks I've found. This allows me to both show some of the content I've found - at least one of which is currently hasn't been shown online - and get some feedback on what I've done so far. The video however is going to be segmented, mainly because I want to try and finish it in one night and not show all of my run so far.

QuestionMark

Edit history:

QuestionMark: 2009-02-14 09:49:59 am

2009-02-14 09:36:43 am

I made it quickly last night. I know I made a few very minor mistakes, but again I did all of this last night =P I realize some of these are already on youtube, but I'm pretty sure at least the going the opposite direction on the roulette wheel and the last one are new. Some of the ones I hadn't found on youtube are also not in the video so this isn't everything new in my run.

(currently being processed)

The last one is the one I got all excited over.

trihex

2009-02-14 02:02:00 pm

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Quote from QuestionMark:

I made it quickly last night. I know I made a few very minor mistakes, but again I did all of this last night =P I realize some of these are already on youtube, but I'm pretty sure at least the going the opposite direction on the roulette wheel and the last one are new. Some of the ones I hadn't found on youtube are also not in the video so this isn't everything new in my run.

(currently being processed)

The last one is the one I got all excited over.

Very excited to see this, but I'm getting a "video unavailable" error. Reupload, perhaps?

QuestionMark

Edit history:

QuestionMark: 2009-02-14 03:14:16 pm

2009-02-14 03:06:21 pm

I uploaded a .dv file which youtube apparently doesn't support. I'm now trying another extension, and I'll mirror the file just in case.

QuestionMark

Edit history:

QuestionMark: 2009-02-14 04:34:34 pm

2009-02-14 04:11:21 pm

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/30060/Sly%20Cooper%20Teaser.mov

Thats a link, and youtube is still uploading. Also I recorded a glitch I found thats kind of like a super jump if you have two rings near each other. Will have to play with it.
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/30060/Sly%20Jump.mov

Also found a way to knock out the generator on the first level without using any of the keys. Though it may mean nothing since I still would probably need the keys to use the cannon. Will test a few things though.

trihex

2009-02-15 09:34:13 pm

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

*watched*

Holy shit dude! That was awesome! There were a couple I was already aware of (Last level in World 1, boatyard whatever and the first fence skip in the first level in World 2) but the rest blew me away! I feel embarrassed with my run still up by comparison (though to be fair, it is/was/still is? in my queue to be improved). Please, get some progress on this speedrun! I can't wait!