Single Segment with Resets now accepted globally

Flip

Edit history:

Flip: 2012-10-02 09:34:06 pm

2012-10-02 09:23:53 pm

1-Up!

This has been a long time coming, but in recent months the staff's priority has been on migrating to our new backend / organizational system / whatever you want to call it.

I'll edit this post later this month with specifics, but right now I just want to say that SS w/ Resets is a valid submission category for all games and consoles (PC included). This decision is independent of the discussion in the (now old) SS w/ Resets thread.

Along with this will come guidelines for verifiers to help them handle these submissions and expanded rules to accommodate this change, but like I said, that's coming later. Just want to get the word out for now.

edit: already had to specify that SS w/ Resets won't obsolete SS in most cases. This decision does not jeopardize every SS run on the site. Typically they will be separate categories. More details to come.

Thread title:

Karls_Friend

2012-10-02 09:26:38 pm

sick

PJ

2012-10-02 11:29:45 pm

Is PJ

Awesome news!

Marlie Tang

2012-10-02 11:47:48 pm

Hi I'm Kryssstal

Probably cool for lots of games, but I don't think anything really changes with this. It seems that runners or subcommunities with actual interest could just ask in that other thread until they got the category approved anyway.

I don't think resets will ever become the standard for ALttP or YI, or at least I'm hoping dupe runs wouldn't be posted just because one used resets to cut out something small like the world cutscenes in YI.

mike89

2012-10-02 11:50:50 pm

SEGA Junkie

Yeah I think in that respect the only run that had proved a bit sticky was Majora's Mask, and obviously now that's put to bed so that's awesome.

Sir VG

2012-10-02 11:54:36 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Marlie Tang:

...I'm hoping dupe runs wouldn't be posted just because one used resets to cut out something small like the world cutscenes in YI.

I don't think it will. The verifiers will need to compare the play in a SS w/ Resets to a SS w/o Resets and ask themselves if the quality is as good/better.

What can happen in games like ALTTP is runs that used glitches but required a reset can be considered SS now (kinda).

Marlie Tang

Edit history:

Marlie Tang: 2012-10-03 12:05:25 am

2012-10-03 12:03:06 am

Hi I'm Kryssstal

Quote from Sir VG:

What can happen in games like ALTTP is runs that used glitches but required a reset can be considered SS now (kinda).

Yeah I hope no one submits that because it's honestly one of the easiest things that could ever be run, and everyone who plays it for like half an hour will get a 2:21 SDA/2:50 SRL time (for reference I have a 2:20.98 and a theoretical perfect time would only be a handful of milliseconds less). I would hate for someone new to watching runs of ALttP to be turned off by the EG run and lose interest in watching anything else.

The old ~4 minute ALttP glitch runs that had to rescue Zelda were pretty silly too, but with the new setup you don't do anything in the run. You can see how dumb it is here if you're interested: http://www.twitch.tv/kryssstal/b/332012550

Also you could technically do a major skips run of ALttP without resets by exploiting a certain hole in Hera (J 1.0 or J 1.1 only), which allows you to EG without S&Q or U+D/L+R. Basically it'd be close to a Master Sword run without the bosses. You'd just beat Armos, get the gloves, and head to the upper floors of Hera and EG to the credits in about ~20 minutes.

[quote="Sir VG"]What can happen in games like ALTTP is runs that used glitches but required a reset can be considered SS now (kinda).[/quote]
Yeah I hope no one submits that because it's honestly one of the easiest things that could ever be run, and everyone who plays it for like half an hour will get a 2:21 SDA/2:50 SRL time (for reference I have a 2:20.98 and a theoretical perfect time would only be a handful of milliseconds less). I would hate for someone new to watching runs of ALttP to be turned off by the EG run and lose interest in watching anything else.

The old ~4 minute ALttP glitch runs that had to rescue Zelda were pretty silly too, but with the new setup you don't do [i]anything[/i] in the run. You can see how dumb it is here if you're interested: http://www.twitch.tv/kryssstal/b/332012550

Also you could technically do a major skips run of ALttP without resets by exploiting a certain hole in Hera (J 1.0 or J 1.1 only), which allows you to EG without S&Q or U+D/L+R. Basically it'd be close to a Master Sword run without the bosses. You'd just beat Armos, get the gloves, and head to the upper floors of Hera and EG to the credits in about ~20 minutes.

Sir VG

2012-10-03 12:10:32 am

Fucking Weeaboo

I'm familiar with the walk though walls skip in LTTP (I've done it before). That's why I mentioned LTTP.

And honestly, I'd hope somebody DOES submit it. Glitched runs are awesome, but that's my opinion. Different categories exist for the reason of different tastes/needs.

Marlie Tang

2012-10-03 12:19:39 am

Hi I'm Kryssstal

I'm a fan of glitch runs provided they have both a skill cap and entertainment factor, such as DKC1 7% or SM64 0 star. If the run is just like, pretty much a video of turning the console on and pressing the select button (like ALttP), or x-ray climbing for however many excruciating minutes (like SM), then I have to wonder how many people would really be interested in watching realtime attempts or runs of such things.

If it's just about seeing what's possible, TASVideos probably covers all those glitch runs that SDA doesn't have.

FFgamer86

2012-10-03 01:07:50 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

LOL, I actually found the new EG Route, I was surprised no one had thought of it when I was messing around with the glitch trying to come up with an EG Puzzle.

Paraxade

2012-10-03 02:10:33 am

Good decision. Thanks.

Kotti

2012-10-03 02:27:58 am

Very nice. I still kinda disagree on SS+R not obsoleting SS in most cases, but that's just me.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2012-10-03 02:29:49 am

2012-10-03 02:29:32 am

Not a walrus

It's a different category if the difference is large enough. It's not really any different than death warps.

Patrick

Edit history:

Patrick: 2012-10-03 03:14:54 am

Patrick: 2012-10-03 03:13:04 am

Patrick: 2012-10-03 03:02:21 am

Patrick: 2012-10-03 03:01:56 am

2012-10-03 02:59:45 am

I guess that the ruling is going to be: if a SS+R run would obviously still be faster than the SS even if it were done without resetting, and the runs are not significantly different from each other (have fun deciding on that), then the SS+R run obsoletes the SS run.
I also guess that it rarely happens that someone submits a run that is only faster because he resets. Am I right with the last assertion?

UraniumAnchor

2012-10-03 03:03:56 am

Not a walrus

Not quite. It'll be a new category if the difference between resetting and not resetting is high enough. If it's only a minute faster in an hour long run, it'll probably be considered the same category. I'm saying that just as an example, not any sort of promise.

It is rare that somebody submits an "improvement" that gets rejected, but it's happened before. Not too terribly long ago a Banjo Kazooie run got rejected despite being faster, because the time gain was mostly from new strategies that should have saved more time. It'll be the same with this, I imagine.

CrypticJacknife

2012-10-03 03:54:17 am

Ganondorf = Donkey Kong LOOK IT UP!!

Okay. Most games seem to either do SS or SS w/resets, depending on what in the end really is faster, apart from a select few that have HUGE competition. Otherwise this just seems like an easy way for people not to compete XD

Either way, glad to see it's global now. =)

ING-X

2012-10-03 05:06:58 am

umad

Awesome. Good shit.

ozzy88

2012-10-03 05:19:10 am

I like this.

presjpolk

2012-10-03 07:19:56 am

HELLO!

Whew.

I was ambivalent at first, then the discussion swayed me to this being the right move. Thank you sirs.

DJS

2012-10-03 11:13:46 am

torch slug since 2006

awesome.

are we still using SDA timing, though? like will mario 64 still be timed from mario control instead of from reset?

UraniumAnchor

2012-10-03 11:17:02 am

Not a walrus

Probably not changing the timing rules.

Can you think of an example where that would change the strategy? I'm curious.

Essentia

2012-10-03 11:31:48 am

Everything's better with Magitek

What about games that use the in-game timer for SDA timing? I ask because I can think of one place in FF6 where resetting could be useful, but there could be about 10 seconds of playing that wouldn't count on the timer if I end up resetting.

Specifically (this is a trick I've seen Japanese RTA runners use): On the Veldt, I almost always get into an inescapable encounter there. What I would do is save at the beginning of the Veldt, and if the first encounter is inescapable, I'd reset; most likely I'll be able to run from the next encounter I get, instead of having to fight through it. However, the time it takes to get into the first inescapable counter (plus the time to reset and reload the save) would not be counted on the in-game timer. Would this be a problem, even if it's faster in real time?

UraniumAnchor

2012-10-03 11:35:14 am

Not a walrus

That's a good question but I'll have to leave that one to Mike or Flip.

An example I can think of where that's true is Shadow Complex, where "Load From Last Save" is used to trigger a bug relating to cutscene triggers, which I'm pretty sure rolls the timer back. But as far as I know, we're still using the game timer for it.

Greenalink

Edit history:

Greenalink: 2012-10-03 11:53:40 am

Greenalink: 2012-10-03 11:51:46 am

Greenalink: 2012-10-03 11:51:16 am

Greenalink: 2012-10-03 11:50:19 am

2012-10-03 11:46:30 am

DS Dictator

The in-game timer carries on right before 'Load last save' is used so there isn't inconsistency issues.

This load last save trick exploit I use only works when I do not select a storage device before I start a run.
For example the introduction stage can be skipped.

With a storage device selected
- While the intro stage is loading and you've exit the game, going back to single player takes you to the intro stage.

Without a storage device selected
- While the intro stage is loading and you've exit the game, going back to single player takes you to Jason's section, skipping the intro stage.

And this random save spot -> bridge switch skip -> destroyed Missile Door -> self destruct sequence -> load last save

With a storage device selected
- It takes you back to the previous save spot and forgets everything you did inbetween the save spot & load last save, so the Missile door is back and the self destruct sequence hasn't been activated.

Without a storage device selected
- It takes you back to the previous save spot and remembers everything you did (minus item pickups) inbetween the save spot and load last save, so the missile door is still destroyed and the self destruct sequence has been activated so you can enter the final battle.

Edit:

Quote:

are we still using SDA timing, though? like will mario 64 still be timed from mario control instead of from reset?

SDA timing > RTA timing.
I mean the intro, etc before you gain control is like watching the Olympics before the actual run starts, why time that bit.
SDA starts when you gain control and ends when you lose control. That's consistent but I guess timing methods is like measuring Imperial vs Metric, some prefer Kilometers per Hour (metric) for speed while some prefer inches/feet (imperial) when measuring height.

The in-game timer carries on right before 'Load last save' is used so there isn't inconsistency issues.

This load last save trick exploit I use only works when I do not select a storage device before I start a run. 
For example the introduction stage can be skipped.

With a storage device selected 
- While the intro stage is loading and you've exit the game, going back to single player takes you to the intro stage.

Without a storage device selected
- While the intro stage is loading and you've exit the game, going back to single player takes you to Jason's section, skipping the intro stage.

[u]And this random save spot -> bridge switch skip -> destroyed Missile Door -> self destruct sequence -> load last save[/u]

With a storage device selected 
- It takes you back to the previous save spot and forgets everything you did inbetween the save spot & load last save, so the Missile door is back and the self destruct sequence hasn't been activated.

Without a storage device selected 
- It takes you back to the previous save spot and remembers everything you did (minus item pickups) inbetween the save spot and load last save, so the missile door is still destroyed and the self destruct sequence has been activated so you can enter the final battle.

Edit:

[quote]are we still using SDA timing, though? like will mario 64 still be timed from mario control instead of from reset?[/quote]

SDA timing > RTA timing. 
I mean the intro, etc before you gain control is like watching the Olympics before the actual run starts, why time that bit. 
SDA starts when you [b]gain[/b] control and ends when you [b]lose[/b] control. That's consistent but I guess timing methods is like measuring Imperial vs Metric, some prefer Kilometers per Hour (metric) for speed while some prefer inches/feet (imperial) when measuring height.

UraniumAnchor

2012-10-03 11:52:49 am

Not a walrus

Hmm, I didn't realize it kept the timer. That actually surprises me, and I guess makes it not a good example after all.