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Truljin @ Twitch
I sure am, keep up the good work Cheesy
Edit history:
nobody_important: 2015-08-03 04:14:45 am
nobody_important: 2015-08-03 04:06:11 am
the goal is conquest
the run is being encoded, waiting for my submission to be processed. yua successfully deleted last frames from every segment where I purposefully left frames of loading screens to make timing as precise as possible. well done yua!

should I attempt to record some audio commentary to the run? is anyone interested in hearing something like that?

also, I wonder if I should get a more 1337 nick than the one I am using now )
Time to fit you for a wooden box!
Very cool to see a run of this game. I played through it a year back and was thinking of replaying it. Fantastic overlooked shooter, can't wait to see it get beaten crazy fast!

Quote from nobody_important:
should I attempt to record some audio commentary to the run? is anyone interested in hearing something like that?

I'd listen to it.
the goal is conquest
Quote from SpeedySPCFan:
I'd listen to it.


okay, I'll see what I can do. I dunno if its ok with sda to append the commentary after the run is verified? for now my encodes are without it.
Time to fit you for a wooden box!
Quote from nobody_important:
Quote from SpeedySPCFan:
I'd listen to it.


okay, I'll see what I can do. I dunno if its ok with sda to append the commentary after the run is verified? for now my encodes are without it.


Yua includes the option to add audio commentary to your video. From what I'm getting that function adds a second audio track to your video so people with VLC Media Player or similar can switch over to the audio commentary track. Someone can probably verify this but I'd imagine you could just encode the run with audio commentary added using that function, which should be fine with SDA. Once again I'm just running off of stuff I've gathered from the forums and I'm not really that familiar with SDA overall so I'm sure someone can confirm if I'm right or not
the goal is conquest
Quote from SpeedySPCFan:
Quote from nobody_important:
Quote from SpeedySPCFan:
I'd listen to it.


okay, I'll see what I can do. I dunno if its ok with sda to append the commentary after the run is verified? for now my encodes are without it.


Yua includes the option to add audio commentary to your video. From what I'm getting that function adds a second audio track to your video so people with VLC Media Player or similar can switch over to the audio commentary track. Someone can probably verify this but I'd imagine you could just encode the run with audio commentary added using that function, which should be fine with SDA. Once again I'm just running off of stuff I've gathered from the forums and I'm not really that familiar with SDA overall so I'm sure someone can confirm if I'm right or not


what I mean is there is no audio track included in the version I will be uploading for verification. but I guess it shouldn't make much difference, should it.
anyway, I am really anxious to share this run Smiley I think I got much more creative this time than in my first attempt, which was basically just the longplay route done fast
the goal is conquest
uploading. In the meantime, a short documentary on "What can all happen to you when speedrunning SiN"

the goal is conquest
looking for verifiers I suppose Smiley still not entirely sure how this works around here, but I saw my game in of the posts on the verification board Smiley
the goal is conquest
bump!

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_available_for_verification__due_2015.09.08.html
Edit history:
nobody_important: 2015-08-31 07:19:27 pm
nobody_important: 2015-08-31 02:18:40 pm
the goal is conquest
well, third time's the charm?

Edit history:
nobody_important: 2015-10-10 10:40:43 am
nobody_important: 2015-10-08 12:04:22 am
nobody_important: 2015-10-07 09:03:31 pm
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nobody_important: 2015-10-07 08:25:57 pm
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nobody_important: 2015-10-06 09:36:07 pm
nobody_important: 2015-10-05 07:21:04 pm
nobody_important: 2015-10-03 11:00:43 pm
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nobody_important: 2015-10-03 02:47:48 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-24 08:38:27 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-20 11:20:59 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-20 11:20:47 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-19 07:52:00 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-19 07:49:55 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-19 03:34:49 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-16 11:08:44 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-15 10:42:13 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-14 05:43:13 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-09 12:22:45 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-09 12:22:43 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-09 12:22:42 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-08 08:47:37 pm
nobody_important: 2015-09-08 10:03:29 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-07 01:09:21 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-06 01:30:59 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-06 01:28:44 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-04 01:31:39 am
nobody_important: 2015-09-04 01:18:32 am
the goal is conquest
the goal is conquest. one level = one segment.

Construction Zone was my first ever segment where I roughly kept track of how many attempts I made in total: ~440 attempts. I feel like this number will be close to number of attempts on other levels, too. Also, considering my goal was to beat the last run by a minute, having 40 seconds at the 4th level is pretty promising ))

Assault On FCB (01:08.87)
Freeport City Bank (01:17.20)
Abandoned Buildings (00:38.63) (new, painfully obvious route discovered) (omg this made me so happy)
Construction Zone (01:17.27) (new routes, one painfully obvious, one painfully chance-based)
Abandoned Subway (02:46.27) (I made it in ~2:44 too, but the fraps decided to drop fps down to 10 at the very end of the boss fight Angry )
Sintek Chemical Lab (00:46.60)
Sintek Chemical Plant (02:17.60)
Sintek Warehouse 1 (01:22.17) (new route)
Sintek Warehouse 2 (01:11.33) (new route)
Biomech Factory 1 (01:40.63) (new route - beyond doubt the hardest segment now (like it wasn't hard enough before Smiley ))
Biomech Factory 2 (02:13.43)
Freeport Sewers (00:44.73)
Lower Freeport Sewers (00:37.97) (made just a mad dash past the snipers instead of fake zooming)
Freeport Dam (00:53.77)
Sintek Oilrig (02:28.07)
Underwater Passage 1 (02:57.83)
Underwater Passage 2 (02:48.23)
Hidden Docks 1 (00:54.70)
Hidden Docks 2 (00:40.93)
Jungle Pass 1 (00:26.87)
Mountain Gorge (01:08.97)
Containment Area 57 (02:07.13)
Xenomorphic Lab 1 (00:28.17)
Xenomorphic Lab 2 (00:33.40)
Estate Sinclaire 1 (00:16.27)
Estate Sinclaire 2 (00:27.90)
Munt Phoenix (01:28.47)
Thrall Master (03:13.03)

Total (38:56.44)
the goal is conquest
the goal is conquest
looking for verifiers

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_available_for_verification__due_2015.10.27.html
MoMo
What is that fake zoom thing and what do you use to run this game?
Edit history:
nobody_important: 2015-10-21 05:13:44 pm
nobody_important: 2015-10-17 04:26:26 pm
the goal is conquest
Quote from molluskmoth:
What is that fake zoom thing and what do you use to run this game?

the fake zoom is this console macro
Code:
bind F +bond
alias +bond "fov 40; sensitivity 2"
alias -bond "fov 110; sensitivity 5"

you can see it at for example 20:00 when I am dealing with the snipers in the last attempt I posted here. in my most recently submitted attempt I do not utilize it anymore.
I play it on Windows 8.1 without any problems, I am just using the 1.11 patch and a screen resolution patch
the goal is conquest
uploading the final encodes. I was waiting for an official timing and then fixing an abrupt audio desync which occured halfway through the video. but right now, I believe all is good in the hood.
the goal is conquest
It is finished )

Okay, so the run above is missing a lot of stuff. The main thing is abusing the physics to their fullest, stuff which "nobody" just didn't know about. Hmm... should I call you "nobody" or NI or what? Tongue Anyway here's my feedback:

I've started the Strategy Guide for this game. It's still under construction with stuff that should be figured out (and bad formatting). Might as well look at other Q2 engine games, strategy guides and whatever can be found, to make sure there isn't another trick I've missed. Personally I'm focusing on SiN for now.

I found this on our very own knowledge base https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Quake_II - almost useless I'm afraid. :/ I haven't ever gotten a "double jump" in this game (it's not the same as ramp jumping where you use different surfaces). I think you can sometimes hear two jump sounds, but they patched it so it doesn't give you the second jump's acceleration.

NI: Even though the run needs a lot of revision, I think your aim is very serviceable in a speedrun. Furthermore some of the shortcuts, tricks, and strategies you found will still apply to the new run. Still, you gotta get better optimization all round - it's a segmented run but in some places it doesn't look like one. I think this is because you're doing one segment per level aren't you? It wouldn't be so bad if it was judged as per that fact, but SDA rules state you need to segment as much as saves any time at all, and there is no penalty for doing so. The bank level for example I might see being done in two segments, and the more difficult the tricks get, the more segments there are going to be. You should really start posting your run (whenever you've got time for it) one optimized segment at a time for continuous feedback. Manipulating all those enemy boosts and stuff whenever you can afford the hp is a thing. Redoing a segment 150 times to get it just right isn't out the norm.

Read the FAQs, especially this one: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/39787-sin/faqs/15778 Always look at such resources in case you didn't. Even returning to them much later can help you remember something useful.

The secret weapon gives you a good boost so if you found 3 pieces not too far out of the way, maybe there's uses? It's faster than planting spider mines and I think the boost is as big as rockets. Apparently you get to keep it for way longer if you only acquire the last part after mission 12 where the arsenal is reset.

Because there's an inevitable learning curve, when you've done the same category to exhaustion (of either yourself or of the category) you should switch to a different one. Personally I'd continue into doing either the 100% or SS, then the other one, then 100% SS if you feel so inclined. After you've looked at most categories, you can cycle back to the first ones to apply the inevitably improved skills and possible new tricks and game knowledge as well. I'd leave the expansion until having done some of that first so you have a large body of knowledge to draw from and are able to get it more or less right on the first time.

I'm going to shout this game out whenever I run into an out-of-work FPS runner because I really really think it deserves a lot more attention: it's a very interesting speedrun game now. And I mentioned categories because there's no way you can NOT have a 100% for it too - all those skipped levels and secrets... I think its definition should probably be: get into the maximum number of levels, get all objectives completed (unless it contradicts the first criterion), find all secrets. I don't think the game keeps track of anything else. And then there's the easy and hard mode runs for each category.

That brings me to this question: why have you chosen the middle difficulty? Is it somehow faster than the easy one? I see the old runs were on that one too. There are exceptions on SDA, but I'm really surprised nobody pointed this out to you: you always go easiest difficulty or hardest just so we can squeeze more speedrun "juice" out of the games without the runs resembling each other too much. I don't see a reason to go middle with SiN. It wasn't spotted in verification because nobody knew which setting "officer" was probably.

BTW I wasn't sure about some stuff re. the rules, so here's just to be clear:

- you MAY use the console to change fov
- also to disable view bobbing if you like (etc. mostly cosmetic changes)
- also to rebind all keys as you probably already did

Try to run different versions if you can obtain them. The FAQ points out a couple of tangible differences... (under "14. Final note") However it might turn out they're either difficult to get running or will crash a lot so this isn't compulsory for all old games like this.

If you find a use for any of these, include them in the guide:
- doors can sometimes give you a sudden nudge to the side if you're standing by the hinge and opening them (any OOB/boosting chances anywhere?)
- when you're in the mountain gorge level, when you're in the quad it looks like the lava stops gushing out until you've dismounted it: the question is whether entering vehicles causes other globally timed/scripted events to be delayed. It might full well be a special script for this one level though so I'm not mentioning it in the guide yet.
- you can unpause the game while in the console (just type in pause or press the pause key) but I think entering the console during a run is not allowed anyway, possibly

I'm going through the game and will report my exact findings and ideas for improvement in this thread, but maybe much later since no-one is currently doing runs anyway.
Well I, for one, enjoyed this run a lot. It's existence inspired me to pull the game out of my Steam backlog and play through it before watching. I was not disappointed. That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a run where the movement is optimized like runs of, say, Half-Life are.

As for the difficulty level, the new rules say:
Quote:
There are generally three difficulty levels that are different categories on SDA: Whatever is fastest, the default and the hardest difficulty level. On rare occasions, other difficulty levels may be tracked. It can for example be if an intermediate difficulty allows for specific shortcuts or glitches that significantly change the route. For games with no speedrun history, SDA is more relaxed with the choice of difficulty level.

So I don't think it's a big problem that the run is on the middle difficulty. I don't think there's a default, but Officer could probably be considered the "normal" difficulty.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-05-10 01:46:25 pm
LotBlind: 2016-05-10 01:35:59 pm
LotBlind: 2016-05-05 01:15:18 pm
NMS: Okay, I'm not sure but maybe the old wording there was a bit different. Still, SDA wants to avoid tautology. I'm not sure what the logic is with running the middle difficulty in SiN is seeing as it seems like a perfectly interpolated middle point between hardest and easiest (isn't it just the enemy damage that differs?) and this is why I don't understand why you'd run it at all. What can you do on "officer" that you can't do on either "rookie" or "hardcorps"? I've actually asked about the new version's wording in the thread so we'll see what they say. It's not that "officer" isn't the "normal" or "default", but the fact is both easiest and hardest mode runs should be accepted to get maximum variance and this just squeezes officer out. EDIT: Yeah, the wording was changed to make it sound less like default difficulty is an equally valid choice compared to easiest and hardest...

Anyway, when you look at the list I'm about to post below, it may look like I've done a job on this game and that I must have found everything, but you should never assume that. Just take everything I pointed out and keep trying to find new uses for it, new boosts, new OOBs even. Specifically you should test these:

- can you get vehicle OOB in other places than I mentioned, perhaps by luring an enemy next to the wall to block you off more: I was trying to be pretty thorough with this in case there was a loose piece of extended floor somewhere OOB but it seems the way the levels were made precluded the possibility more or less. The one in whouse2 is easy to understand.
- NPCs are allowed to open doors in SiN. You might be able to manipulate them to do this for you sometimes. One way to make it happen is if they prevent a door from opening fully/closing by standing in the doorway getting crushed by it, thus delaying the door closing. If you could alert them ahead of time (perhaps by shooting through seams), they might even do it before you've entered the area.
- As an extension to that, can you get NPCs to open locked doors ever like in Wolf3D?
- You have to get to know the game better in terms of item placements especially. I've pointed out a few times where I feel you missed something and the thing is, I wasn't even particularly thinking about it during my playthrough. Remember that an adrenaline stim gives you 30 full seconds of ULTRA-FAST MOVEMENT that's surely at least double the normal speed (minus the time lost to inevitable clumsiness) with a chance to get another small skip in here and there, and so getting most of them is probably worthwhile if it takes less than 30 seconds to do so and you don't end up trying to have several in your inventory. Anyway read the FAQs and walkthroughs and take care to note everything of interest.
- Can you use stuff like "use" spamming or "jump" spamming to do anything weird? The basic way to test for this is to bind those commands on the mousewheel and release the wheel. However you can't bind "jump" i.e. +moveup on the mousewheel, or rather it won't do anything. BTW: I don't think either of these work - the game is damn solid when it comes to handling almost anything you throw its way. I can't even slightly get inside walls for instance and everything feels super-consistent.
- I found the "ghost actors" late into my playthrough and so never tested them in many ways, except in gorge. I don't instantly know how to make use of them but still worth a look. Try shooting at them to nudge them or just kill them, sometimes you can do that off the few frames that you can move around at the start of a level that opens into a cutscene straight off.
- I never tested most event triggers for whether you could save spam your way through without triggering them. You can also delay them activating and generally gain frames of free movement (as it would seem) from doing that, but ofc you're always losing some time to the save spam lag. Anyway keep an eye out.


RUNNING NOTES ON THE CURRENT RUN (aka here's how to save some 15+ minutes :D)


Just generally I'm not sure you couldn't open doors, use stuff etc. a bit faster by maybe binding use on mwheelup/down. I've included some notes here that are intended for anyone running 100% or Single Segment (SS). Ask me for more details if you can't reproduce something I've mentioned whenever you (or someone reading this) wants to get on this run.

I have only mentioned stuff that saves time on a "macro" level: you have to sort out all the optimal movement stuff yourself otherwise, and just avoiding any mistakes. Furthermore I really recommend you do the next run on "rookie" because this enables you to produce a true "any%" run without having to compromise any tricks because of any shit the enemies are pulling. You can also get the most enemy boosts because reduced damage. This will give runners a measuring stick for hardcorps runs.

It cannot be emphasized enough that any enemy boosts anywhere could have a big impact on the final time because they stack up especially along any kinds of stretches. On rookie though it's difficult to manipulate them to actually hit you, which is why in some cases you might have an easier time doing them on hardcorps barring health issues.

Please make a cleaner version of these notes and put it in the correct category's subpage after doing the required testing. Speaking of the guide, I recommend first reading all the stuff in there so you'll get what I mean by certain things I've written.

This will explode all over your face

intro

0:40 Could do this a bit faster with steadier aim. Maybe it doesn't matter because of cycles?

BTW you can shoot the sign as you did, but you can also make it fall through the skylight completely and crash onto the floor. It'll actually be there when you load in the next map. I can't instantly see the benefit of having it there and it might actually slow you down cause you need to circle jump off quickly...

It also looks like the other debris from blown-up roofs will actually spawn in the level but some of them don't have a hitbox.

Actually looks like the ALT entrance to the bank (get the chopper low health until pilot says "losing control") is going to be faster because you can skip getting the key altogether and just rush for the vault.


bank

Bank: You don't have to disable vault security or find the code: just scout it out (i.e. segment before it gets seeded and another time after it's been seeded) and reset until you get a really good one.

In the first room (coming from the alt entrance, where the fire fight is), you can jump ALL the way up using a sequence of chain jumps off the desk and the rails. Ask me if you can't figure it out.

2:45 Whenever you jump down somewhere, you should jump first so you already have some downwards momentum at the time when you cross the ledge. Basic speedrunning trick.


abandon

3:00
SEGMENTED: So there seem to be two beams holding the hatch down. It actually works that way too: if you could get rid of both, the hatch would be openable from either side. One of the beams is actually jutting through and can easily be shot from below. The other one then? There are 3 approaches to it:

1) let the hatch close, try to bump through the hatch with ramp jumps up the stairs so you can shoot the other one too: this has never ever worked for me - if you record yourself trying to do it and play the demo back, you'll see the game never really saw you as being through the door at all, either that or the demo alters it somehow.

2) try to rush for the opening before the hatch is fully closed. Tests on adrenaline confirm this works, but the speed you'll require is something to talk about - at least a lot of enemy boosting and/or a boost off the exploding fuse is required in addition to the standard running circle jump start. Afterwards you can hit both the beams during the short time when you budge the hatch by using it.

EDIT: You can do the above with the help of some save spamming to delay the trigger. Using fists might be more consistent for actually hitting the beams.

3) get an angle on the beams as they're falling down: there's some number of frames when you can clearly see them descending. It's actually possible to shoot them during that time! This has been done in real-time so it's a very good choice if you want to avoid the save spam lag.


SEGMENTED: When emerging into the room above the one you escaped, [shoot the two beams and] open the hatch. With the right kind of ramp jumping you'll get right onto the walkway a bit faster off the opening hatch.

SEG: Afterwards, I'm thinking that you could get through the hallway before the debris blocks it. You'll need luck though, enemies can't get in the way, need really fast wall strafing or circle jumps without getting stuck, with some enemy boosting too. Or maybe an object boost off the first enemy. During the jumping you'll probably have to crouch in the air.

The thing is, the first guy doesn't spawn unless you've hit a trigger at the normal exit from the cellar (at the top of the shaft you're climbed). This means no enemy boosts from him unless you take the short detour to trigger it.

3:09 shoot the beam in the little space on the left and ramp jump

actually looks like you can just ramp jump off the bottom of the rail of the short staircase on the right onto the railing above, so you're curving counter-clockwise. Tricky but possible. Maybe even jumping straight onto the higher walkway leading into the room with the stairs collapsing.


csite

start: ramp jump off the bump on the second container's side

before the second ladder, just jump backwards off the ramp, or try for some ramp jumping

3:44 after jumping you can turn around in the air without losing time

3:51 here's an example of a place where you should not have killed the enemies instead letting them shoot you in the back. You can stun them though until you're on the right side.

3:57 enemy boosting to save a jump somewhere?

4:05 jump over the crates (off stack of 3 smaller ones) not around - can you increase brightness also?

4:16 could do this faster jumping directly off the pit side near the pipe

bulldozer area: can get out the pit off right side of pipe if you want

exiting: jump straight into the hole from the top instead of landing on the floor first


subway

100% If you did the longer route for any reason, you can shoot the "subway" signs down and they'll explode... perhaps for great damage.

Before first manumit fight: if you lured an enemy under the falling debris you could get back underneath it. No idea what to do with this in this mission, it just prevents the manumit from spawning.

I've also seen the manumit attacking ITSELF after hitting it just once. What you do is faster.

Another thing I managed to do with this fight is when I save spammed before entering the room and the fight trigger, it somehow skipped loading in the guys behind the door that you normally fight. There was just the ammo crates they spawn on. This kinda stuff might be doable elsewhere too, because enemy spawn triggers are everywhere.

5:35 just wall strafe along and pass under the low ceiling while crouching and jumping. Why switched to fists?

5:44 here turn right and do a special jump: need to both get a ramp jump off barrel WITH the barrel exploding too and you can get up faster: that or good enemy support. Hopefully won't have to waste time killing the bum.

6:02 why do you go in and towards the left instead of straight in where the trigger is? BTW I think you have some extra shotgun ammo here seeing as you will lose all weps soon. Hope you didn't lose time getting it.

SS 6:36 you can also stand underneath him when he first enters. Then if you crouch, he can't hit you very often at least. Difficult to headshot though so maybe slower? also don't accidentally push him outside the car...

SEG The FAQ mentions the beast pushing the author outside the car... so if you could get that to happen, but land on the roof and are able to finish the guy off quickly, you might save time overall, because when you're outside the car, you can outstrip it in the tunnel (run along the right side) and when it reaches the final stop, you'll have a short time to get perfectly in position to kill the manu quickly. Also looks way cool.

In either case try to manipulate him close to the exit for the last shot inside the subway car.

7:20 mutant fight - if you're already on the platform, you can again just let him drop on your head and crouch. this time it's probably impossible to make him sit still and not wanted anyway, but what it does is make him ignore the civilians and barrels etc. Might this help meet the "minimize casualties" quota for 100%?

You can also often just get the guy to be left humping one of his precious barrels. I think you can get a faster kill like that.


chem1

Can easily get in-OOB (into the courtyard) using the plants but no immediate uses

7:50 I don't understand why you're avoiding the alarm in this mission... completely pointless, especially in a segmented run, AFAICS. I guess you were afraid of taking damage, which is probably a bigger issue on the middle difficulty. No reason to take out the secretary either. (read further notes for why it COULD be better to be sneaky after all)
7:55 why not go right here? Even if it was important not to set the alarms off (and the secretary was dead) you could just shoot the two guys.

At the elevator, you can hit the button, then block the outer doors (yourself, or probably with enemies as well). This allows to jump on top of the elevator. Sadly this doesn't carry over into the next level in any way so it just slows hitting the level change trigger. I couldn't ever find any uses for this anywhere in the game.

100% if you get the chemsuit in this level it causes an extra cutscene at the start of chem2. On the other hand you have to avoid failing any goals, so if there's a way to avoid triggering the alarm in chem2, you actually have to do it, unless it compromises getting other goals.


chem2

8:42 why would you punch the grate instead of shooting it? maybe take one shot as you hop into the room, the rest after stopping the fans.

You can also get into the ducts by doing a nimble jump in the security office, cutting off a little bit of crawling. If you manipulate someone to leave the doors open for you this might be a tiny bit faster.

Fastest movement in the ducts: probably by both wallstrafing and jumping a lot. When you're in the air, you get the 320 movement cap instead of 110 for crouching. Test this yourself though.

EDIT: Well actually what you do is just circle jump into the duct and keep hopping to keep all the speed Tongue

If you enter this level without the alarm being off and just follow the VIP, you CAN get through the gas-lock together with him. The timing for entering in is very tight but you can use the scanner's patterns to help you. Make sure to jump in with high speed if you do this. Don't know if it's really faster than just bursting through the air ducts though, especially because you'll lose some time being sneaky in chem1, except in the 100% runs (where that's a criterion) but even then I'm suspicious. Especially because "get into the security area" is one of the goals and it's triggered by getting past the fans. You can trigger it from the other side with the fans whirling but it loses more time.

In either case to get the VIP to move faster make sure to open the doors for him.

At the area where you exit the place through, you might just be able to ramp jump + enemy boost on the upper walkway early. It's very tough and I couldn't immediately do it. It might require something like a shotgunner or two blasting away at you in sync.

If you just pass through the same area, remember to get an object boost off the two glass cylinders in the middle.

10:15 are you absolutely sure it's faster to do this over activating and taking the elevator?

EDIT:

Looks like on the easiest setting you can just +forward through the sludge and exit the level early :/ you don't even need the adrenaline, you just need some 90 hp. I think the best way is to crouch a bit so you're not at the very top of the pipe, then wallstrafe off the flat part as best you can.

On hard you'll take way more damage from the sludge. It's impossible to get through without using the ad there.

Getting the adrenaline the normal way probably takes some 25 seconds so it might still be worth going up there even if ramp jumps turn out almost impossible.

EDIT: so messing a bit with the save spam stuff...

Skipping both fans: You can get a ramp jump off the curb. I don't think you can get on the pipes but if you could that'd be even better. That would give you maximal velocity going towards the first fan. Actually jumping off the little brace on the side of the pipe gives you even more height. As you fall, you also want to crouch while in the air and mspam, and you might be able to squeeze through the first one. I know for sure you can get through the second one.

Skipping getting the key card: I managed to skip the first gas chamber that you're actually meant to pass through. What it took was... well just the basics: cj + enemy boost + mspam. In fact the right kind of enemy boost will get you towards the ceiling so high up you won't hit the trigger until way late, making the whole thing easy. Maybe even doable without spam if you have the right trajectory and you crouch in the air? This definitely helps with making the adrenaline worth getting without even needing to hit that crazy chain jump.

In either case it's probably also possible to skip the first chamber, at least if you can get a shotgunner to help you, but it's only open if you kept quiet in chem1.


whouse1

10:47 you can jump onto the same side of the sewage canal as you're coming from, and do that a bit faster in general.

11:00 you could kill them all faster with shotty? Try to line a few up?

in this first area, you can get on the fence by ramp jumping, hopping into the narrow gap where the chicken wiring is, and jumping off it while getting enemy boosted. Hit the alarm to summon more guys if necessary. There's nowhere really you can get to from there sadly. You can similarly get to various other places but there's no skips anywhere.

11:35 nice timing trick, will have to learn a different timing though because faster movement

11:52 I was able to jump directly off the truck onto the light fixture and up on the balcony. It's like 4 jumps altogether. That was when the truck was standing still (I noclipped past the trigger which seems unavoidable) so I dunno how easy it is while it's moving. Recommend getting enemy boosts to get to it quicker Tongue

In the end I couldn't do it even once. Maybe jumping on the truck bed is another idea?

EDIT: With save spamming, I could skip the truck trigger with enough speed, but I basically used the ad to gain that much. (double run speed = 640 = full cj + maybe 5 enemy bullets?) After that the gate C skip is a lot simpler.

I also noticed you can definitely use grenades to stop the truck from moving if that helps.

whouse2

12:10 there's a sniper rifle right in the wooden crate you're passing by: don't you have uses for it? Also one of the crates along the driveway has spider mines! You'll probably skip the other spider mines because of the OOB.

12:20 100% do you really need the forklift here instead of getting wall strafes etc. to parkour through the hall? any% needs it for the OOB.

If you do take the forklift, is it at all better or faster to choose the grenades as your weapon since those can blow up crates for you.

This level is actually the only one where I found you can vehicle OOB - just take the forklift and smash through everything until you're at the very end of the lane that it's allowed to drive on. Park it so its left side is next to the door. Now you can exit into the OOB. From there you can make your way into the exit zone located in the elevator shaft. I THINK the best way is to fall down once and pass through the middle of the cluster of architecture formed by the exit shaft and other stuff around it, then on the rebounce you can hit the exit trigger which is on the same side you'd enter the elevator from.

12:23 100% any way to get on the upper catwalk without spider mines? I almost made it (off the tall stack on the side), would've just needed one more ramp jump or more enemy boosting. Anyway, 2 mines will definitely do it.

12:37 just jump the crates...


biomecha

13:50 very nice trick, but you can do this with just 2 mines set on the wall/door half (a little ways up might be best): try to throw the first mine as early as possible when the door is opening

14:10 could shoot the spider from further away... or maybe get grenades through the hatch's seams. Test that carefully cause I think it should be doable.

15:00 "bastard ran away" it's a segmented run...


biomechb

16:25 Can get up with just 2 mines, but not necessarily faster. Use the ledge right above the door you enter through.

On the other hand, you can start throwing the mines before the doors have even opened. There are angles at which you can get up top even though the mines are much further away. If you're really good, you might be able to send out slow-crawling mines that will just avoid getting stuck on the last door, then drop the third one quickly and get the boost. That way you should definitely be able to get to the door immediately.



silo
sewera

17:30 you can destroy the bar holding the door closed from the other side, by chucking a grenade through the seams. It's very precise but can be done off multiple sides, the top etc. Disable drawing world to see where the grenades are going. Here's a picture to show one spot you could be aiming at.

You can almost ramp jump up on the upper walkway after emerging from the pipe into the lower sewers. With some enemy boosting maybe? Or some other little extra boost? Still this must be slower than the aforementioned because of the valve delays.


aq1
sewerb

18:08 why does this ladder climb look so slow?

dam

19:00 don't have to use adrenaline, just kspam is enough to skip the death trigger - if you did use it though it'd be fastest to jump on the wall first (if this is doable?). In any case save the ad for rig.


wworks1
wworks2
oilrig

the rig can be saved sooooo much time on: you will have the adrenaline that you saved in dam. Just consume it straight away, get the rockets. Do a rocket+ad jump onto the next level (off the extended part right on the left of the ladder). I don't think you can get a ramp jump while added (never ever worked for me), but if you can't you might have to circle around to the middle area and use the crates and various platforms to get up on the heli ledge and into the exit room using more rockets if necessary. If you had spider mines that'd be great but you don't...

BTW: you can get both their rocket launchers if you wait a bit before shooting either. It seemed like it might not have wasted time on the boat but maybe I'm wrong.


uwpass1

I feel sometimes (this and following level) you would have been better off using weapons other than spears for some fights to avoid getting caught so much. I get you don't get any other ammo from the guys you kill.

Another thing, especially in uwpass2 is to crouch more to cut corners more. I don't think it slows you down any underwater.

I think you can just about survive without the scuba when using advanced movement techniques if you're on 100 hp and don't lose any of it to the divers. You wouldn't have the keycard though, so you're really stuck behind the sub. Furthermore if there's nothing meaningful to be doing while waiting for the first sub to be ready...

Something absolutely hilarious you could do is to get one of the divers to follow you (while you wait) and take them to the first lock. Now while it's open, lure them in the doorway and when it shuts, they will hold it open for you for a little bit. This allows you to go back to the bubbles in the previous chamber. You could maybe even get another guy to block the door again to give yourself even more... breathing room.

100%: you can use the grenades and pulse rifle primary to take out the machinery behind the observation window: not really necessary though because you can just blow up the other machinery while diving for the scuba and the pump in the first area, which seems to be enough, unless you're really skipping the scuba.

23:53 an example of a spot where it's slightly faster to aim at the side of the door that's closer when you approach (flick the view to the right to point at it perpendicularly) because door opening delay.

24:10 first get key card while shooting guy, then operate compy? can you get the keycard from the other location faster?

alt: shoot the guy while getting the keycard standing far from the door, then re-open the closing door, then finally use the computer and leave before the door closes again.

alt: shoot the guy through the slanted glass from the outside while passing that area

You can just right about run from the door to the computer, disactivate security and run (backwards) back to the door if you also did an object boost off the door first. Can't get the keycard this way probably unless the chair is there to do a second boost off. Get the key from the other place?

alt: just stagger the guy without having to shoot a second time

alt: you can also just use a spider mine to damage him from outside, but he gets pushed out of range afterwards, so you have to finish him off with something else. I dunno how but I once got a bit of damage on him with the rockets... I shot it somewhere high up.

24:38 why would you go on the right side of this door when the left side lets you through slightly faster?

You CAN get past the death lasers with sufficient propulsion. I've gotten it with 9 spider mines but with optimal placement, maybe 7-8 would be enough. The damage you're going to take from it is pretty high but should be survivable with armor. After hitting the detonator, you have to use mspam for the first part. After you're through, there's a huge push away from the bottom of the tunnel, so you have to continue to save-push, but now you wanna do kspamming. In theory if you could get underneath a sub it could push you down. You're gonna have to wait for that sub anyway.

If you could somehow reach the sub spawning location, the same OOB could be done as in uwpass2, but it's behind an invisible wall as well as currents in uwpass1.

Past this level I haven't tested any save spam skips at all, so be extra on-your-toes!

uwpass2

26:00 can you use rubble anywhere to get pushed OOB? give it some tries. This kinda stuff never came even close with me though, I fear the physics are kinda solid. :|

26:51 here's where you can use save spamming to get OOB: use it to move against the current into where the subs are coming from - get on the spot where they spawn - now when a sub spawns in you'll fall into OOB - you can survive the fall by trying enough times (not currently sure what you need to do, maybe just crouch or land in a particular place?) and fall off the ceiling you're standing on to get where the exit of the level is (with one bounce possibly) - you can at least activate the exit trigger from the side that's closer to the second to last door - using the adrenaline is an easy way to survive the fall and also to move around faster but probably not worth spending it on this level (although you'd also save some serious swimming time)

btw there's a secret in the last branch tunnel Wink


docks1

28:20 here you can just open the exit door without any key cards by aiming at an oblique angle, which causes it to hit the valve on the opposite side Cheesy same thing with the next level lol


geo1
geo2
docks2

so yeah bypass this level


jungle

Ramp jumps up the set of stairs at the start.

Looks like you can get elevatored up by the concertina doors in this level, in case that should come handy anywhere.

Also think about whether crouching is anyhow better somewhere when passing through, doors specifically.

29:56 maybe here you could cut the corner and jump across diagonally

jungle2
gorge

30:57 just ramp jumping here works (or combo of ramp jump with rocket jump)

You can also drive the ATV towards the left, park it on the elevated sides of the driveway, rocket jump onto it, rocket jump on the lamp post, and parkour up top. Doubt it's any faster though.

at the start of the mountain gorge level, if you take the buggy and drive it backwards into the starting corridor you can get a vehicle OOB, but I don't think you can get outside the tiny little cuboid it strands you in. I also couldn't find anywhere else in the level where such spaces exist. I used the method of noclipping OOB, then falling back towards the level to see if I was ever left standing on a loose ledge anywhere. Nada.

Right at the end you can shoot a grenade at your feet and get it to make the cutscene look weird Cheesy Just don't kill yourself doing it though! In fact it looks like there's an invisible actor already in place on the spot you'll appear on for the cutscene. If you shoot the spot J.C. will tell you not to shoot friendlies. I wonder if other places have these vicarious actors in place?? Try to find more spots where you can do this, just for laughs if nothing else.

In this particular spot, it might make the stupid AI have an easier time "finding" you if you do just so nudge your cutscene self on the camera left a bit. Didn't test.


area57

31:40 I'm sorry but you fail the "Darwin test" here Cheesy You can simply run/jump right back up the tube before falling down into tests 1-2 and the guys will interpret it as a success (hey it required intelligence!)... Ofc you can't skip test 3 this way seeing as it's the only way to get to the next area (that I could find). The enemy jump you do off the mutant is pretty swift though so don't feel TOO bad.

A little heads-up: looks like you have to fall down far enough into the pipe for it to register. Or I otherwise don't know why the 2nd test wouldn't sometimes activate.

32:45 Aaand again, I can tell it's your first game isn't it? You always try to find ways to skip forced sequences like this. In this case it behaves like Half-Life and puts you in whichever coordinates you were left. To skip the transformation, just jump-crouch on the slanted part of the restraining walls of the machine and activate it off the top. Alternatively use an NPC or something to do it even faster. Now you're free to at least run back to where the key is if you don't want other supplies.


biomass
xeno1

elevators in this and next area: you could just hit the outside call button to send the elevator up/down instead of the inner one.

33:40 just shoot him once and run around

33:50 getting the adrenaline here looks a tiny bit sloppy. Sadly I think the secret adrenaline won't be useful at all. Sad You can probably use it and a rocket jump or something to get on the machine arm in the first open area and get directly up, but this takes too much time all in all. The 100% has to do something stupid like this to get the 3rd secret in this level though.


xeno2

shouldn't you go directly to the door exiting the first lab where the trigger that activates the lift is? I'm sure you can do this part faster just in general. I think there should be just enough time to get the ammo if wanted and the hypo before it's time to rush for the elevator. Maybe you can just knock the other guy back with a rocket or something?

If you want to use the destabilizer, you forgot to a) switch at the end of the last level and b) start charging it up earlier

elevator: could theoretically ride the elevator down WITH the dark captain, stun lock him a bit...

wait, why not use the adrenaline around the top area to save more time? You're left with 15 seconds at the end - surely enough to do the first parts before arriving at the bottom of the stair case. Although there's another adrenaline vial in a secret later, it should only take maybe 6 seconds to get when "ad"ded (you can surely make it out before the hatch closes) - really not worth going for?


mansion1

Could you use the adrenaline at the start of the first mansion level, then rush into the basement through the hatch to retrieve the other adrenaline from there? There's some nice downwards inclines along the way but I think you should still just pop the ad. You can just jump out the same hatch as well with ad + rocket if that's faster.

In fact maybe go inside first, intentionally trigger the stairs trap, fall into it, then get back through that opening instead? If you want you can ride the elevator with the second spider mech but that's probably a bit slow.

100%: looks like mansion security gets "subverted" when you hit a certain hitbox in the basement, underneath the outside hatch.

100% you can get in the area with the bioshield by hitting a part of the left side painting that's upside down, however jumping through the window prevents the manumit from spawning. You might want the manumit to be there for a boost though.

mansion2

34:45 a fun strat here would be to release the little guy from the terrarium [aggro him and] and use his attack to boost yourself up without taking the stairs

alt: can you hop onto the open door and up from there?
alt: spider mine + door?

In Elixis' bedroom, there's a bioshield above her bed canopy! You should really get it while waiting for the lift to appear (get the bed to rotate?). That's 15 seconds of invincibility... either makes the fight in the observatory faster or you can weapon boost more without losing health, which means serious time saved in the observatory or thrall. Downside seems to be can't use both ad/muta and shield at the same time. It could also be your cheap way of getting the last rockets in from close range on thrall but I don't recommend thinking of it that way.

I don't know why it took so long for the elevator to appear in your run: I'm seeing it lift up almost instantly (playing on rookie). If there's a wait, it's even more reason to go for the bioshield.


phoenix

observatory: You can shoot grenades over the wall to kill the guy with the key early. Can't seem to reach it if you're not on the second level though.

Why oh why do you rush through the outside when there's a closer entrance to the supplies room on the inside Tongue


thrall

36:35 don't try to sound cool :/

38:00 sounds harsh but you really shouldn't ever miss rockets in a segmented run ever, especially when the boss isn't fast-moving. If you're having tremendous difficulties with doing risky fast strats the whole time, maybe segment half-way through?

Another mistake you made was being so far away from the boss for the last couple of rockets. You need to make sure your last rocket has minimal fly time to directly save time on the segment.

I wonder if there's any way at all you could inflict damage on the boss or otherwise get its attention before falling out of the cage. I can't immediately see any objects you could bounce a mine off (the ladders are too far, you can sort of bounce mines off other mines, but they never bounce after they've landed) and grenades just don't fly that far.

Actually I know exactly what you have to do - you throw a spider mine towards the side of the big building. As it's still traveling, it can be redirected using a rocket. So you have to shoot a rocket out that makes it fly towards Thrall. Next you have to switch back to spider mines, and detonate the mine that's moving right next to or attached to him. This will not only deal a nice bit of early damage (could you even get two mines near him?) but also alert him early hopefully making him get a bit closer to where you can shoot him. To make hitting the rocket easier (though this is not recommendable) you can stop the cage from moving by just hanging around the back as it starts its descent.

Afterwards you should time your movements in the cage so you can fall directly on the edge, not in the water, if possible. You can even use a spider mine + rocket or something, just try to avoid wasting time in the water.

SS: If you couldn't do the spider mine trick, you could also alert the guy by shooting the wall he's behind from inside the building. Finally you could alert him by shooting a rocket at the corners he's near to.

I found that you can cheese the guy by getting on the mesh platform up the ladder on either side. He can't get to you in the first phase and if your position is right, neither can he do anything in the latter two phases. Should make area targeting much easier too if that matters. Again, this is honestly something you should never have missed Tongue I don't even think this is the only way to get him stuck but it might be difficult to arrange for some other stuff.

I think if you use the bioshield here you could maybe get slightly higher dps with the mutagen than rockets for the last hits?

After some simple testing (using the show damage cvar), I'm fairly sure the chaingun deals more DPS than the rockets. Honestly... Sad There's also sooo much ammo all around the arena, so I'm not even sure if you need to switch away from it ever. Someone has to do thorough DPS tests and edit it into the guide under "weapons". Leaving it for the runner.

Also use the destabilizer for opening damage? A fully charged shot can deal 700 damage, which is almost 5 rockets or 35 chaingun bullets. The switch time isn't very long.

FINALLY, leave the end cutscenes (and starting cutscenes) in. Makes for a nicer run. Hope you or someone (or you and someone) will have a blast redoing this run! I had one looking for all these tricks.

PS: We should make it a tradition that you have some cool voice synth binds ready for use after beating Thrall (and only then, as a surprise to viewers)
I've just finished a pretty big overhaul of the guide. More stuff is underway though when I get to testing a few things. I also figured out that Xyzzy (as by her words) used demos to record her run, and I might be able to do the same and actually participate in making a new run... or even do it by myself, as much as my wrists allow me. I gotta rest them now Tongue

additional notes:

You can get the scientist to open the door next to the room with the pulse rifle part as he's escaping.

biochemb - in Xyzzy's run she suddenly pulls out a sniper in this level after hitting the elevator. I don't exactly know where she got it from, she skipped it in whouse2. It might be one of those inconsistencies she got rejected for but if so it's a pretty strange one.

Does anyone know anything about the disappearing scuba gear? What has to happen for it to disappear or to stay?
Okay another update here... I found out that I can, in principle, record the run using demos (like Xyzzy did), but there are a few serious limitations to that:
- I can't use save spamming, because this doesn't get recorded in the demos.
- I get lag, which I'm not sure if it shows for everyone watching the demo. I think it probably does. In that case that affects A/V quality and I can't actually use laggy demos for anything. It wasn't just once or twice either, my lappy just can't handle it. :/

Read: I can tell you exactly how to get a much faster run, but I can't help with recording it. There's more stuff I tested that's going to make it into the guide later on.
Howdy! So, I've been thinking of giving this game a try. Essentially, I'm still in the alpha stage of routing, using nobody_important's run, LotBlind's notes, and the knowledge database as references. Lastly, this walkthrough on gamefaqs has also been very useful.
I have a few questions however:


1) Is there a known way to open maps with some kind of editor/viewer? I've come across a couple of places where something can obviously be triggered to happen, but I can't figure out how to trigger them. I assume the outcome of these events are of no importance in a speed-run, but regardless it would be pretty awesome to see "pre-compiled" versions of the maps Smiley I'd feel better knowing there's nothing I don't know about!

2) Just curious if anyone knows if it's possible to prevent the auto-reload from happening, when you switch to a not-fully-loaded weapon?
(It's not so ideal that when I switch to the Magnum with 14 bullets in its clip, it will reload automatically before I can use it or switch to another weapon. The same happens with the Assault Rifle.)

3) Regarding binds, scripts and cvars, the SDA rules seem somewhat vague/grey. (I assume all SiN runs should be 'scriptless'?)
- For example, the "fake zoom" script is apparently OK to use. Does that mean that it's generally OK to execute multiple commands with one button press/release?
Then how about:
Code:
bind p "save dummy; save dummy"
This would simply save the game twice, when P is pressed once. Would that be allowed?

- Is [r_fullbright 1] allowed? (It does not require [cheats 1], and it does nothing other than brightening up the place. It's essentially no different from changing the Brightness in the video options - the main difference is that [r_fullbright] does not require [vid_restart].)


Lastly, but not SiN-specific; since I'm unfamiliar with speed-running still, what software for recording and splitting would be suitable for something like SiN? (I won't be streaming, so I need nothing fancy.)
Firstly, this is an old note that I wanted to post here at some point... Does someone else get enemies throwing dynamite sticks in abandoned buildings (3rd level after intro and bank)? NI said something about it but it doesn't happen in my version.

Secondly, howdy yourself! I'm currently in a spot where I could dedicate a bit of time to helping you with this game seeing as you're the first who's expressed interest in it. I'd like to suggest Skyping though, since there's a lot to go through and so I can understand where you're coming from and how much support you'll need... if anyone else reading this knows they want to run the game, I'd like to suggest getting onboard now as well. It only takes one runner per category though, IMO, if they don't mind the inevitable grind.

1) There IS an editor, because there have been custom maps made. I haven't found out anything about it though. The triggers are all rectangular (as is par for the course) and so it's possible to check where they start and end just by noclipping I'd like to think.

"I'd feel better knowing there's nothing I don't know about!" That's an EXCELLENT start for your speedrunning career Mister! With that attitude, you'll be able to make runs of my caliber no problem! Wink

2) I remember this being a problem and I don't think it can be avoided by anything other than remembering to keep reloading them in areas where nothing's happening. Similarly, I don't think you can remove the pick-up switching.

3) Actually, the rules should NOT be vague about it at all: a script/macro is anything that executes multiple commands with one press, and the fake zoom is the primary reason NI's run got rejected earlier on. It's a command that you can't bind through in-game menus. Generally one-key/one-command binds are all okay, in this case specifically binding the mutant hands weapon to a separate key which it normally doesn't have should be okay. Fullbright is okay because it can be seen to fall under "cosmetic changes".

If you're saying this wasn't obvious based on the rules as they're laid out, we'll take a look at how they're phrased later on.

Personally I use OBS and it's working fine. It was almost effortless to get working, just making sure the FPS etc. match the game. By splitting you mean time splits? I don't know about those.

So yeah, I was working on this some more in the meanwhile and I have lots of notes that need to be pasted into the guide at some point. My Skype is sviimhoinen, but lemme know if there's a problem with that. It'll be the best way to get coordinated.
So have you really missed my attempts to contact you Fruit? I didn't want to spam this thread with something that's off the topic.