SiN - August 31, 2015

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2015-08-31 10:45:08 am

2015-08-25 10:07:57 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

SiN () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented] [Officer]

Decision: Reject

Reason: Cancelled by the runner. This run uses a script that creates an artificial zoom that's not normally present in the game. This was thought to be acceptable at the making of the run.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/verificationfiles/1745/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2015-08-25 10:07:58 am

Run Information

SiN () (pc) [Any %] [Segmented] [Officer]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/sinfps-20150803/

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

ktwo

2015-08-26 09:04:46 am

I noticed the following text in the run comments:

Quote:

I utilize xyzzy's fake zoom command (mentioned in the first post of the thread https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html):
bind F +bond
alias +bond "fov 40; sensitivity 2"
alias -bond "fov 110; sensitivity 5"

From my understanding, this creates some kind of zoom of the field of view. If anyone has played this game, do you know if this is an option offered by the game itself or is it an external aid that makes it "easier" to aim? If it's the latter, I think it could be a bit problematic. (I will also send a pm to the runner and ask for more details)

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-26 02:06:04 pm

nobody_important: 2015-08-26 02:04:55 pm

2015-08-26 02:04:32 pm

the goal is conquest

Quote from ktwo:

I noticed the following text in the run comments:

Quote:

I utilize xyzzy's fake zoom command (mentioned in the first post of the thread https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html):
bind F +bond
alias +bond "fov 40; sensitivity 2"
alias -bond "fov 110; sensitivity 5"

From my understanding, this creates some kind of zoom of the field of view. If anyone has played this game, do you know if this is an option offered by the game itself or is it an external aid that makes it "easier" to aim? If it's the latter, I think it could be a bit problematic. (I will also send a pm to the runner and ask for more details)

it depends what exactly you mean by external I suppose. the fov command itself is an internal part of the engine (modified Quake 2), but you have to make a custom alias in the console to utilize it
like I said, it is something that xyzzy was already using back then when she was doing her speedrun (she also mentioned she learned this in multiplayer Quake, so I suppose it was not considered cheating back then??? No idea though, really), and since nobody complained about it in the thread, I just went along with it

[quote="ktwo"]I noticed the following text in the run comments:
[quote]I utilize xyzzy's fake zoom command (mentioned in the first post of the thread https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html):
bind F +bond
alias +bond "fov 40; sensitivity 2"
alias -bond "fov 110; sensitivity 5"[/quote]
From my understanding, this creates some kind of zoom of the field of view. If anyone has played this game, do you know if this is an option offered by the game itself or is it an external aid that makes it "easier" to aim? If it's the latter, I think it could be a bit problematic. (I will also send a pm to the runner and ask for more details)[/quote]

it depends what exactly you mean by external I suppose. the fov command itself is an internal part of the engine (modified Quake 2), but you have to make a custom alias in the console to utilize it
like I said, it is something that xyzzy was already using back then when she was doing her speedrun (she also mentioned she learned this in multiplayer Quake, so I suppose it was not considered cheating back then??? No idea though, really), and since nobody complained about it in the thread, I just went along with it

Judgy

Edit history:

Judgy: 2015-08-27 04:13:42 am

Judgy: 2015-08-27 04:12:37 am

2015-08-27 03:28:48 am

Borderlands 2 Glitch Hunter/ router.

Quote:

I utilize xyzzy's fake zoom command (mentioned in the first post of the thread https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html):
bind F +bond
alias +bond "fov 40; sensitivity 2"
alias -bond "fov 110; sensitivity 5"

Does the normal FoV when aiming down sight normally go to 40 or another value? or is this Zooming further than normal? because this also changes sensitivity i'm wondering if this is a kin to 'while aiming (normally) sensitivity of mouse changes' which would be fine as far as I could tell.

However if the command changes the regular zoom amount it's more like saying 'I don't like that this gun only zooms in to a magnification of x2 I want it to be x4' which is basically modding.

also does this game even have a zoom function normally some old FPS didn't.

Edit: Other than this issue we are dealing with.

A/V: Fine
Cheating: TBD
Gameplay: Whole run looks really solid and gets what need to be done, done. there are some great strats here like the mine jump at 17:40~ and it looks as though the run itself has had a lot of effort put into it and pending the outcome of this I would encourage the runner to retry this without the disputed binding (should it be a reject because of it).

if the bind is fine = Accept , if not = Reject

[quote]I utilize xyzzy's fake zoom command (mentioned in the first post of the thread https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html):
bind F +bond
alias +bond "fov 40; sensitivity 2"
alias -bond "fov 110; sensitivity 5"[/quote]

Does the normal FoV when aiming down sight normally go to 40 or another value? or is this Zooming further than normal? because this also changes sensitivity i'm wondering if this is a kin to 'while aiming (normally) sensitivity of mouse changes' which would be fine as far as I could tell.

However if the command changes the regular zoom amount it's more like saying 'I don't like that this gun only zooms in to a magnification of x2 I want it to be x4' which is basically modding.

also does this game even have a zoom function normally some old FPS didn't.

Edit: Other than this issue we are dealing with.

A/V: Fine
Cheating: TBD
Gameplay: Whole run looks really solid and gets what need to be done, done. there are some great strats here like the mine jump at 17:40~ and it looks as though the run itself has had a lot of effort put into it and pending the outcome of this I would encourage the runner to retry this without the disputed binding (should it be a reject because of it).

if the bind is fine = Accept , if not = Reject

Soliduz Znake

2015-08-27 05:03:38 am

so is this run passable or reject because of xyzzy fake zoom command? will wait after the decision if passable then verify. also the planning thread is not there, has it been deleted?!

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-27 10:34:17 am

2015-08-27 10:33:05 am

the goal is conquest

Quote from Judgy:

Does the normal FoV when aiming down sight normally go to 40 or another value? or is this Zooming further than normal? because this also changes sensitivity i'm wondering if this is a kin to 'while aiming (normally) sensitivity of mouse changes' which would be fine as far as I could tell.

However if the command changes the regular zoom amount it's more like saying 'I don't like that this gun only zooms in to a magnification of x2 I want it to be x4' which is basically modding.

also does this game even have a zoom function normally some old FPS didn't.

This game does not have "aiming down sights" of any kind and yes, I believe it does not have an actual zoom function either and even the sniper rifle scope only changes the fov and mouse sensitivity - but this is really not a question for me, I have only very little knowledge of such inner engine workings. but I believe somebody who is familiar with Quake 2 engine might answer this as well.

Quote from Soliduz Znake:

also the planning thread is not there, has it been deleted?!

it is, it's just that the forum script added a parentheses at the end of the url. here's the link without the url; my posts start on page 2

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html

[quote="Judgy"]Does the normal FoV when aiming down sight normally go to 40 or another value? or is this Zooming further than normal? because this also changes sensitivity i'm wondering if this is a kin to 'while aiming (normally) sensitivity of mouse changes' which would be fine as far as I could tell.

However if the command changes the regular zoom amount it's more like saying 'I don't like that this gun only zooms in to a magnification of x2 I want it to be x4' which is basically modding.

also does this game even have a zoom function normally some old FPS didn't.[/quote]

This game does not have "aiming down sights" of any kind and yes, I believe it does not have an actual zoom function either and even the sniper rifle scope only changes the fov and mouse sensitivity - but this is really not a question for me, I have only very little knowledge of such inner engine workings. but I believe somebody who is familiar with Quake 2 engine might answer this as well.

[quote="Soliduz Znake"]also the planning thread is not there, has it been deleted?![/quote] it is, it's just that the forum script added a parentheses at the end of the url. here's the link without the url; my posts start on page 2

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sin_speedrun_ready.html

ShadowWraith

2015-08-27 11:06:16 am

.

I did some digging on this game; There's a command called 'togglezoommode' that is available in this game according to this google newsgroup. I can't test this command as I don't have a copy of the game, but does your fov script perform a similar action?

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-27 05:21:01 pm

nobody_important: 2015-08-27 05:18:13 pm

2015-08-27 05:17:47 pm

the goal is conquest

Quote from ShadowWraith:

I did some digging on this game; There's a command called 'togglezoommode' that is available in this game according to this google newsgroup. I can't test this command as I don't have a copy of the game, but does your fov script perform a similar action?

I tried it and it turns out this is the command that the game executes anytime you use the sniper rifle scope - it changes the crosshair, lowers sensitivity and - I believe - decreases fov but does not actually zoom. And plays a sound effect Smiley

moooh

2015-08-29 03:21:39 am

Exoray

So basically what you are saying is that this is a scripted command that kinda mimics the sniper scope, but was now added to be used by weapons that doesn't have a scope?
This feels very much like modding the game which is a no go, adding features not present in the game. Quake multiplayer is not a very good example since those favor heavily scripting whereas scripting has been banned here since like 2008 after a long debate.

The fov command may be native to the Quake2 engine yes, but there's also a lot of things you can do from the developer console in order to modify the game from there, kinda turning it into another game. We usually say that if you can't change something from the game settings menu then it should stay unmodified. Exceptions if you just needed to, say change the fov once to adjust the game for wide screen compatibility or something.

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-29 11:15:44 am

2015-08-29 11:09:47 am

the goal is conquest

Quote from moooh:

So basically what you are saying is that this is a scripted command that kinda mimics the sniper scope, but was now added to be used by weapons that doesn't have a scope?

the command is the sniper rifle scope. by binding it to a key, you can use it with other guns as well.

Quote from moooh:

This feels very much like modding the game which is a no go, adding features not present in the game. Quake multiplayer is not a very good example since those favor heavily scripting whereas scripting has been banned here since like 2008 after a long debate.

I was using the fake zoom mainly because xyzzy's run was rejected based in inconsistencies in armor and such and not modding. now that I looked carefully through the rules list, I found at the very bottom of the list an item that says basically what you just did.

can I still cancel my submission?

ktwo

2015-08-29 11:26:36 am

Just so we all know we're talking about here. nobody_important, can you have a look at the two following screenshots?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/093qo0z9nlznjl2/sin_submission.png?dl=0 (from your video)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa6y2fmc880t5ij/sin_youtube.jpg?dl=0 (a random screenshot from a youtube video)

It's clear that the point of view is different in the two images. Is this the difference we're talking about? Is this what the fake zoom does? As far as I can see, the pov doesn't change in your video. You have just set it before starting the game and then keep it, right?

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-29 11:37:44 am

2015-08-29 11:35:43 am

the goal is conquest

Quote from ktwo:

Just so we all know we're talking about here. nobody_important, can you have a look at the two following screenshots?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/093qo0z9nlznjl2/sin_submission.png?dl=0 (from your video)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa6y2fmc880t5ij/sin_youtube.jpg?dl=0 (a random screenshot from a youtube video)

It's clear that the point of view is different in the two images. Is this the difference we're talking about? Is this what the fake zoom does? As far as I can see, the pov doesn't change in your video. You have just set it before starting the game and then keep it, right?

no, that's not what it is, that is only me adapting fov to my wider resolution. attached is a screenshot from 20:06

Attachment:

vlcsnap-error053.png

ktwo

2015-08-31 10:39:58 am

nobody_important, thanks for having the patience and answering our questions. It's clear now that we're talking about a script that changes the field of view at several points in the run, creating a sense of "zoom", which is not normally available in the game. This unfortunately means that this run is not acceptable by sda's standards. I say "unfortunately", because the work you have put into this has resulted in an excellent speedrun.

nobody_important, since you're new to the site, I would like to mention one possibility that might or might not be feasible for you. As you probably understand, there has to be continuity between segments for the run to be legit. However, the requirement here is that you need to start the next segment with egual OR less of everything (health, ammo, weapons etc). This means that even if you don't have the old saves stored somewhere, it's still possible for you to replace the segments where you take advantage of the fake zoom script, with new segments that don't use it. You just have to make sure you end those segments with more or equal of everything than what you start the following segment with. I'm not sure how this would work for you, but I wanted to mention it at least.

Finally, this topic has been discussed the last few days with the other admins. The following post by moooh summarizes how changing the fov has been seen in the past and that view still stands: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/jedi_outcast__jedi_master_in_43minutes_by_recon_93.html

nobody_important, thanks for having the patience and answering our questions. It's clear now that we're talking about a script that changes the field of view at several points in the run, creating a sense of "zoom", which is not normally available in the game. This unfortunately means that this run is not acceptable by sda's standards. I say "unfortunately", because the work you have put into this has resulted in an excellent speedrun.

nobody_important, since you're new to the site, I would like to mention one possibility that might or might not be feasible for you. As you probably understand, there has to be continuity between segments for the run to be legit. However, the requirement here is that you need to start the next segment with egual OR less of everything (health, ammo, weapons etc). This means that even if you don't have the old saves stored somewhere, it's still possible for you to replace the segments where you take advantage of the fake zoom script, with new segments that don't use it. You just have to make sure you end those segments with more or equal of everything than what you start the following segment with. I'm not sure how this would work for you, but I wanted to mention it at least.

Finally, this topic has been discussed the last few days with the other admins. The following post by moooh summarizes how changing the fov has been seen in the past and that view still stands: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/jedi_outcast__jedi_master_in_43minutes_by_recon_93.html

SDAVerification

2015-08-31 10:45:11 am

Decision posted.

Judgy

2015-08-31 01:02:35 pm

Borderlands 2 Glitch Hunter/ router.

Yeah personally going to mirror what ktwo said because the run was awesome I strongly recommend either ro-doing segments or re-attempting the entire run without the aim modifier.

Here's hoping you keep up the good work! Cheesy

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-31 01:15:16 pm

nobody_important: 2015-08-31 01:11:12 pm

2015-08-31 01:10:26 pm

the goal is conquest

I will have to watch the entire run once more to see how much work will it take to fix the segments in question. It is actually not as bad since the game consists of chapters about 5 levels each, where at the end of each chapter your stats are reset (except maybe for the spider mines between last two chapters, as I mentioned it in the comments)

the other thing is that I will have to gather lots of motivation to redo those parts of the run, since they will probably be extremely challenging and frustrating to me (my aiming is actually horrible)

thanks for all the comments

ktwo

2015-08-31 01:49:15 pm

I noticed that you used one segment per level. Just so you know, that is a self-imposed restriction. You're allowed to (and actually supposed to) save wherever it's beneficial for you. I don't know how the save system works in this game, but that could maybe be a way to save you some trouble should you wish to redo some parts.

nobody_important

Edit history:

nobody_important: 2015-08-31 01:59:34 pm

2015-08-31 01:59:11 pm

the goal is conquest

okay, I will have to redo this entirely since I use the fake zoom in every chapter and the few levels I could theoretically skip make almost no difference anyway. I guess it's a good thing as I know there is still room for significant improvement (well, less significant than the two improvements I made thus far, but improvement nonetheless). wish me strong nerves, it was frustrating enough as it was Smiley

I have imposed the one segment per level restriction A/ because I want to avoid the saving penalty and B/ because I don't want to do all the cutting that would be necessary afterwards.

IsraeliRD

2015-08-31 02:07:17 pm

Dragon Power Supreme

There is no saving penalty anymore. Not for the last... one-two years.

nobody_important

2015-08-31 02:08:39 pm

the goal is conquest

haha you might consider updating the knowledge base then Smiley

Soliduz Znake

2015-08-31 03:40:25 pm

it'll be safe idea to post your runs on the planning thread for feedback then submit the run. aside from that good luck with the run.