Shovel Knight

2014-07-16 03:04:49 pm

Many words! Handle it!

The Speedrun community on the whole is pretty big on keeping things "legit". Sure you can play however you want, if no encounters is fun then more power to you. But your run is now a gimmick. The point is to deal with what the game throws at you. Sure many games have skips and stuff, but it's about using what the game provides. If there was a way to manipulate the RNG seed or despawn the map NPC, that would be one thing. Not many people are going to care about a run that saves 5m by looking up a code online.

Copilot

2014-07-16 03:05:30 pm

Ruling the cosmos!

^ I like that, other people are better with words than I am.

Knocks

2014-07-16 03:24:28 pm

So the "legitness" of a game mode is determined by the fact that it is called a cheat and not an actual game mode even though it pretty much is a game mode and not a cheat? Just because there are rules in place for the overarching community doesn't mean that those rules makes sense in every single case. The only thing the RNG adds in this game is frustration. Hypothetically, if someone convinces the developers to make this a game mode instead of a cheat, would this now be a legit category?

It doesn't reduce the time of the run by 5m flat. It normalises the run speed so that you don't have to reset as much because of things that you can't do anything about. If your RNG is godly, the game will never throw this at you at all. All the "cheat" does is making it so that you don't have to reset as often.

UberGoose

2014-07-16 03:27:42 pm

Quote from Knocks:

So the "legitness" of a game mode is determined by the fact that it is called a cheat and not an actual game mode even though it pretty much is a game mode and not a cheat? Just because there are rules in place for the overarching community doesn't mean that those rules makes sense in every single case. The only thing the RNG adds in this game is frustration. Hypothetically, if someone convinces the developers to make this a game mode instead of a cheat, would this now be a legit category?

It doesn't reduce the time of the run by 5m flat. It normalises the run speed so that you don't have to reset as much because of things that you can't do anything about. If your RNG is godly, the game will never throw this at you at all. All the "cheat" does is making it so that you don't have to reset as often.

It's a cheat, it's not a game mode, it's not semantics. I don't understand what you are saying at all.

RNG is part of the game, deal with it. If you don't want to deal with it feel free to cheat. But your times won't be respected.

[quote="Knocks"]So the "legitness" of a game mode is determined by the fact that it is called a cheat and not an actual game mode even though it pretty much is a game mode and not a cheat? Just because there are rules in place for the overarching community doesn't mean that those rules makes sense in every single case. The only thing the RNG adds in this game is frustration. Hypothetically, if someone convinces the developers to make this a game mode instead of a cheat, would this now be a legit category?

It doesn't reduce the time of the run by 5m flat. It normalises the run speed so that you don't have to reset as much because of things that you can't do anything about. If your RNG is godly, the game will never throw this at you at all. All the "cheat" does is making it so that you don't have to reset as often. [/quote]

It's a cheat, it's not a game mode, it's not semantics. I don't understand what you are saying at all.

RNG is part of the game, deal with it. If you don't want to deal with it feel free to cheat. But your times won't be respected.

Copilot

2014-07-16 03:28:03 pm

Ruling the cosmos!

Dude, I don't think you're getting this. Every single game that people speedrun (I use the term "every" lightly, it's a hyperbole of sorts) has RNG that will frustrate you. It's like Josh said, half of speedrunning is learning to deal with that RNG quickly and efficiently, it keeps the game interesting because every run is different, and you have to adjust accordingly. The reason that people like CapnDrake hold world records is not because they entered in a code to disable the RNG, it's because they kept on playing the game until they got good RNG, and that's what you have to do when you get serious about a speed game.

luigimeister

Edit history:

luigimeister: 2014-07-16 03:37:22 pm

2014-07-16 03:34:24 pm

Likes SoM far too much

Everyone complaining about the overworld miniboss rng, do you realize you can exit to main menu after you get into one of the encounters and then reload your save, then you can just move past the miniboss? It wastes very little time unless you get godawful luck and get more than one or two.

Knocks

2014-07-16 03:39:49 pm

UberGoose: My point is that this community would most likely not frown upon this if it was called a game mode and not a cheat. So yes, it is semantics.

Copilot: Explain to me how the map RNG keeps this game fresh. You waste seconds by quitting to the titlescreen and then entering the game again. Isn't really much to adjust to. You are only wasting time. Time that you can save ONLY by grinding runs until you don't get that RNG. Does anyone seriously think that grinding until you get good RNG is fun and should be a deciding factor when it comes to getting good times? Even when we have to option to turn it off?

Wawlconut

2014-07-16 03:43:32 pm

Bucky O' Hare Hard modes are a cheat and therefore invalidated runs.

Caerulius

2014-07-16 03:46:12 pm

Copilot why doesn't the shovel knight community just have a lottery each month and whoever wins gets to be WR holder for that month. It'll save everyone a lot of time and effort.

Knocks

2014-07-16 03:55:53 pm

Quote from Caerulius:

Copilot why doesn't the shovel knight community just have a lottery each month and whoever wins gets to be WR holder for that month. It'll save everyone a lot of time and effort.

I just love it when people ask sarcastic questions instead of bothering to actually use logic to answer my arguments.

Caerulius

2014-07-16 03:57:10 pm

You know I'm agreeing with you right?

Knocks

2014-07-16 03:58:46 pm

Quote from Caerulius:

You know I'm agreeing with you right?

Ohh sorry :S Thought you were sarcastic. You can't really blame me though as it seems like everyone is against me Tongue

UberGoose

2014-07-16 03:58:55 pm

Quote from Caerulius:

You know I'm agreeing with you right?

Pokemon exists

CptBrian

2014-07-16 04:00:26 pm

Relax

Quote from luigimeister:

Everyone complaining about the overworld miniboss rng, do you realize you can exit to main menu after you get into one of the encounters and then reload your save, then you can just move past the miniboss? It wastes very little time unless you get godawful luck and get more than one or two.

That still wastes a lot of time and there's a decent chance they'll move in your way again.
Having a legit option built into the game to remove overworld RNG should be allowed in a run, since there is zero skill involved in getting good map RNG, and because the option is in the game.

Knocks

Edit history:

Knocks: 2014-07-16 04:01:49 pm

2014-07-16 04:01:00 pm

Ignore

Knocks

Edit history:

Knocks: 2014-07-16 04:02:19 pm

2014-07-16 04:01:29 pm

Too tired, Can't use forums correctly.

Wawlconut

2014-07-16 04:03:25 pm

Quote from CptBrian:

Quote from luigimeister:

Everyone complaining about the overworld miniboss rng, do you realize you can exit to main menu after you get into one of the encounters and then reload your save, then you can just move past the miniboss? It wastes very little time unless you get godawful luck and get more than one or two.

That still wastes a lot of time and there's a decent chance they'll move in your way again.
Having a legit option built into the game to remove overworld RNG should be allowed in a run, since there is zero skill involved in getting good map RNG, and because the option is in the game.

This makes sense because most games when you roll bad RNG you come up with backup strats which can change the nature of the run.
Resetting to title in this case is just bland and the code just saves everyone's time with what they are shooting for.

Also I'm of the opinion that resetting to title kills pacing for this game.

RamblingJosh

2014-07-16 04:13:01 pm

Many words! Handle it!

There are plenty of games with cheats built into them which are not used in speedruns. It's pretty obvious how crappy the RNG in Shovel Knight is, but I'm not convinced that we should default to just removing a part of the game, regardless of it being called a cheat or not.

Wawlconut

2014-07-16 04:14:49 pm

Does the RNG add anything to the run?

Anbear

2014-07-16 04:16:20 pm

Resetting to title is actually a big part of many categories in speed games. In many speed games, there will be run-destroying RNG, some far worse than others. I don't really believe a cheat to remove overworld RNG is really necessary, when you can circumvent this RNG already by a quick reset; I feel it's a lot better than having to input a cheat every time I boot the game up. That's just my opinion though.

CptBrian

2014-07-16 04:18:14 pm

Relax

Quote from Wawlconut:

Does the RNG add anything to the run?

No, it takes away from it, if anything.
Though you could probably go with a strict "no cheats" rule.

Quote from Anbear:

I feel it's a lot better than having to input a cheat every time I boot the game up.

You don't need to input it every time, make a profile and copy it over to the slot you're going to use.

Wawlconut

2014-07-16 04:23:16 pm

Personally I'm in favor of no resetting to title or using no overworld.
Also while many games reset to title it doesn't mean that all of them should.

Also if enough people run no overworld and push it seriously then it's essentially legit since it would have community backing.

Knocks

2014-07-16 04:45:46 pm

Quote from RamblingJosh:

There are plenty of games with cheats built into them which are not used in speedruns. It's pretty obvious how crappy the RNG in Shovel Knight is, but I'm not convinced that we should default to just removing a part of the game, regardless of it being called a cheat or not.

I cannot see a single reason why we shouldn't allow this, or at the very least recognize it as a legit seperate category. It requires exactly as much skill as any%, except that you no longer need to have the patience of an elder god to be able to grind runs. If the patience and tolerance for bullshit rng is an important part of the game to a majority of the community, then make it a seperate category, but no one should pretend that it requires any less skill at the actual game to play with this "cheat" activated.

Copilot

2014-07-16 05:19:07 pm

Ruling the cosmos!

I'm not going to be a part of this conversation anymore. Shout and gripe all you want, I don't care anymore. To quote the book Wild Thorns

"I resist, I stand firm,
On my crate of lemons!"

Knocks

2014-07-16 05:47:34 pm

UberGoose and Luigimeister, come on guys, you are better than this. Bring me some good arguments as to why I'm wrong instead of complaining about me on twitter.

https://twitter.com/LuigimeisterSRL/status/489525229849309185
https://twitter.com/UberGooseUS/status/489526865556541440 (I'm pretty sure he means me)