Shining Force II [Genesis]

mithical87

Edit history:

mithical87: 2008-05-02 07:33:40 am

2008-05-02 07:31:44 am

Freelance slacker

Okay, so like many wide-eyed speed-watching enthusiasts, I've been toying around with the idea of doing a speedrun myself. I honestly have no idea if I've got what it takes, but I decided to go ahead and start a topic anyway. I figure if my attempt goes south, maybe someone else will give it a go and then I get a SF2 run to watch.

I chose SF2 because I played it growing up, which adds that nostalgia feel we gamers like so much. I've played through it about 4 times, read through a lot of FAQs and even checked out some awesome charts showing each character's stat growths. Basically, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on this game. I also chose it because as a turn-based strategy RPG, most of the speed will come from planning instead of execution. I'm not too confident in myself for the 'execution' part, but the planning I think I'll be better at. And you guys get to help! Hopefully. Please? =)

Also when I searched the older consoles forum and couldn't find a thread, I was happy to learn that I didn't have a bar set for me that might be too high. Obviously my plan is to set it as high as I can for somebody else, but I can see myself making comparisons and giving in to despair if there was something to compare my run to.

Anyway let's get down to business. I decided to dive right into the game and take a look at how some of the earlier battles played out since I usually take my time, spread the XP around as evenly as I can, lure enemies in as small groups as possible, etc. I wanted to check out how focusing on speed would affect the basic gameplay, and I was relatively happy with the results. I'll talk about those later and move onto the more important stuff: the general stategy overview for getting through this thing as quickly as possible.

Typically in an RPG, the best way to go is the way that deals the most damage. More damage = faster kills, faster kills = less enemies killing you. Best defence is a good offence sort of thing, plus it's faster. I think the same holds true for SF2. In Fire Emblem the best strategies usually involved power-leveling 2 or 3 characters but I think that might not work here. The XP penalties for killing enemies start appearing once you're a level or two over 'par'. For example I was getting 32 experience when Kazin took out a Knight at LVL9 in the last battle before Granseal goes boom (usually you get a nice 49 for a killing blow). My thinking so far is to basically focus on as few people as possible, but not so few as to really get bogged down by XP penalties.

Killing the people I won't be using (or getting them killed rather) is a good way to avoid having the cursor travel to them, telling them to wait, and having it travel back to the action. Unfortunately there's a lot of auto-revive points peppered into the story. I still think it will be fastest to send them to their doom everytime they come back. Eventually you get the caravan and then they can chill there for the rest of the game.

Speaking of characters I won't use... which ones will I use? A lot of guides measure characters based on leveling them up to 40 before promotion because you get extra stats. You also waste hours of your time. This is why these choices will differ, slightly, from what most people think are the best characters. In keeping with the high-attack is best theory, I've narrowed down the list somewhat:

Probably going to use:
Bowie - He has great attack/HP/Def/Agi and access to the best weapon in the game. He's also probably going to be the only one who can wear the white ring, which provides some healthy bonuses (I honestly can't remember what, DEF I think). He also gets some bolt spells on top of his Egress, but his MP remains low enough that you'll only be able to cast one or two a fight. Being the best melee character is the delicious, moist cake. The Bolt2 on a crowd of enemies is just the icing. Cherry for being required in every fight anyway.

Peter - Because he has flying, insane attack, insane HP, revives automatically after battle and doesn't equip a weapon. Oh, and he takes half damage from Fire after promotion. I don't think anybody has ever played this game and ditched Peter.

Gerhalt - Great all around early, later on is mostly there just for the massive attack, and not needing to buy the guy a weapon. His HP/Def/Mov all start to fall behind so he might be a good candidate for a running pemento or the running ring.

Jaha - High damage, insane defense (lots of '1's), used to tank/lure while still dishing out damage. I've always promoted him to a Baron using the Warrior's Pride (I think the game sends you to that warroom place at one point so it shouldn't take more than a few seconds to grab it), so I don't have first hand experience with him as a GLTR. He loses out on a much needed movement boost though.

Still thinking about:
Sarah - Because I will need some healing and money might be better spent on new weapons instead of copious healing items. Her slow spell can allow people to lay the beat down on critical targets (bosses, usually), but it's usually better to just attack. Also, when promoted to a MMNK (Master Monk), she starts dealing out great damage while keeping all her strengths as a healer. The MMNK can also ignore XP caps by healing someone every turn for a flat 10+ XP. This can allow for some very high level monks (but will it waste too much time..?). It also wastes time to grab the Vigor Ball from the secret forest village to promote her in the first place. Lots of 'ifs' involved with Sarah.

Kazin - He's your only form of AoE for a long time, and he gets a couple nice spells. Blaze 4 usually hits for about 45, which is high when he first learns it, and becomes average towards the end of the game. It is relatively cheap to cast however. He also learns Desoul 1/2, making it possible to luck-abuse some one-hit kills in sticky situations. Did I mention Desoul 2 has a 1 radius? You can axe (or scythe I guess) as many as 5 enemies with that spell. I also thought about using Muddle2 (radius 2) to confuse enemies, and then try to run past them and take out the boss. Promoting him to a sorceror with the Secret Book (also in the secret forest village) means he gains insane single target damage, but sucks at AoE. By this I mean summon spells do X damage divided by Y targets. X Can be as ridiculous as 40, 70, or higher towards the end of the game, but divide it by 3 guys and suddenly it's not so hot. Also you can't direct spells to be cast at the ground, only on enemies, so if you want to hit just 1 guy he can't have anyone adjacent to the target.

May - High movement, high attack, attacks from range. Another ranged attacker is great early on, and May is about tied with Elric for best ranged unit in the game, so if I go with a ranged unit it's probably her.

Eric - He rocks. He usually has insane HP, attack, defense, can attack from range, flies if promoted to a Pegasus Knight (requires keeping him as a KNGT past 20, typically), and has great movement. The only reason I might not use him is because he's one of the 4 characters you get from Creed, and ALL of them are the at least tied for best in their class. Especially Karna.

Karna - She has the highest growths in the game in more than one attribute and is about top 5 in all of the rest. If promoted via Vigor Ball to a MMNK, she can spam Boost1/2 on units to receive massive XP, which when combined with her natural sky-high growths and the innate awesomeness of being a healing-attacker makes her highly desirable. Also, Boost and Aura are great spells. So what's the problem? First of all, she's a Creed's Mansion character, so I lose out on the others if I pick her. Secondly, she will stay a CLRC for a LONG time unless I save the Vigor Ball from the secret forest village for her, in which case I'll probably ditch Sarah. Thirdly, it takes some time to properly abuse the Boost XP spam, so it's either something I base entire strategies around or pretty much don't use. It might be awesome to spend some time sending her up to level 70 or so and then have her solo the game, but I have no idea if this will gain time over a more typical playthrough. I think it's worth a test, so I'll check that out.

Tyrin - Another Creed character. He gets all the mage damage spells, Blaze/Freeze/Bolt. He doesn't have the all-aroundness of Kazin (plus Kazin has the highest agility in the game), but having a single target spell like Blaze4 or Freeze4 on top of a radius 2 spell like Bolt2 or 3 is great for doing what mages usually do best, blowing things up. If I wanted a summoner (that's basically what SORCs do) I would stick with Kazin, so he'd definitely go WIZ if I chose him. I also don't know if I'd take him and Kazin.

Elric - Competes with May for the title of best ranged character. Well, in the attack from 3 panels with a basic attack kind of ranged anyway. May has the higher movement and attack, while Elric has a fair bit more HP and a bit more DEF. Typically I want to keep my ranged unit... at range.. and not taking hits, so I'm leaning towards May right now.

Frayja - He's not an attacker, at all. He heals. He does a good job at healing, but usually Sarah and/or Karna are enough. The reason I haven't ruled him out is because he knows Aura, which is just great. The other is a spell only he can learn: Attack. It.. boosts attack (go figure). Obviously this is a very desirable thing in a speed run. I might have him tag along as the attack-mule, but dealing with his turn every round might not be worth it.

Thread title:

Okay, so like many wide-eyed speed-watching enthusiasts, I've been toying around with the idea of doing a speedrun myself. I honestly have no idea if I've got what it takes, but I decided to go ahead and start a topic anyway. I figure if my attempt goes south, maybe someone else will give it a go and then I get a SF2 run to watch.
 
I chose SF2 because I played it growing up, which adds that nostalgia feel we gamers like so much. I've played through it about 4 times, read through a lot of FAQs and even checked out some awesome charts showing each character's stat growths. Basically, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on this game. I also chose it because as a turn-based strategy RPG, most of the speed will come from planning instead of execution. I'm not too confident in myself for the 'execution' part, but the planning I think I'll be better at. And you guys get to help! Hopefully. Please? =)
 
Also when I searched the older consoles forum and couldn't find a thread, I was happy to learn that I didn't have a bar set for me that might be too high. Obviously my plan is to set it as high as I can for somebody else, but I can see myself making comparisons and giving in to despair if there was something to compare my run to.
 
Anyway let's get down to business. I decided to dive right into the game and take a look at how some of the earlier battles played out since I usually take my time, spread the XP around as evenly as I can, lure enemies in as small groups as possible, etc. I wanted to check out how focusing on speed would affect the basic gameplay, and I was relatively happy with the results. I'll talk about those later and move onto the more important stuff: the general stategy overview for getting through this thing as quickly as possible.
 
Typically in an RPG, the best way to go is the way that deals the most damage. More damage = faster kills, faster kills = less enemies killing you. Best defence is a good offence sort of thing, plus it's faster. I think the same holds true for SF2. In Fire Emblem the best strategies usually involved power-leveling 2 or 3 characters but I think that might not work here. The XP penalties for killing enemies start appearing once you're a level or two over 'par'. For example I was getting 32 experience when Kazin took out a Knight at LVL9 in the last battle before Granseal goes boom (usually you get a nice 49 for a killing blow). My thinking so far is to basically focus on as few people as possible, but not so few as to really get bogged down by XP penalties.
 
Killing the people I won't be using (or getting them killed rather) is a good way to avoid having the cursor travel to them, telling them to wait, and having it travel back to the action. Unfortunately there's a lot of auto-revive points peppered into the story. I still think it will be fastest to send them to their doom everytime they come back. Eventually you get the caravan and then they can chill there for the rest of the game.
 
Speaking of characters I won't use... which ones will I use? A lot of guides measure characters based on leveling them up to 40 before promotion because you get extra stats. You also waste hours of your time. This is why these choices will differ, slightly, from what most people think are the best characters. In keeping with the high-attack is best theory, I've narrowed down the list somewhat:
 
Probably going to use:
Bowie - He has great attack/HP/Def/Agi and access to the best weapon in the game. He's also probably going to be the only one who can wear the white ring, which provides some healthy bonuses (I honestly can't remember what, DEF I think). He also gets some bolt spells on top of his Egress, but his MP remains low enough that you'll only be able to cast one or two a fight. Being the best melee character is the delicious, moist cake. The Bolt2 on a crowd of enemies is just the icing. Cherry for being required in every fight anyway.
 
Peter - Because he has flying, insane attack, insane HP, revives automatically after battle and doesn't equip a weapon. Oh, and he takes half damage from Fire after promotion. I don't think anybody has ever played this game and ditched Peter.
 
Gerhalt - Great all around early, later on is mostly there just for the massive attack, and not needing to buy the guy a weapon. His HP/Def/Mov all start to fall behind so he might be a good candidate for a running pemento or the running ring.
 
Jaha - High damage, insane defense (lots of '1's), used to tank/lure while still dishing out damage. I've always promoted him to a Baron using the Warrior's Pride (I think the game sends you to that warroom place at one point so it shouldn't take more than a few seconds to grab it), so I don't have first hand experience with him as a GLTR. He loses out on a much needed movement boost though.
 
Still thinking about:
Sarah - Because I will need some healing and money might be better spent on new weapons instead of copious healing items. Her slow spell can allow people to lay the beat down on critical targets (bosses, usually), but it's usually better to just attack. Also, when promoted to a MMNK (Master Monk), she starts dealing out great damage while keeping all her strengths as a healer. The MMNK can also ignore XP caps by healing someone every turn for a flat 10+ XP. This can allow for some very high level monks (but will it waste too much time..?). It also wastes time to grab the Vigor Ball from the secret forest village to promote her in the first place. Lots of 'ifs' involved with Sarah.
 
Kazin - He's your only form of AoE for a long time, and he gets a couple nice spells. Blaze 4 usually hits for about 45, which is high when he first learns it, and becomes average towards the end of the game. It is relatively cheap to cast however. He also learns Desoul 1/2, making it possible to luck-abuse some one-hit kills in sticky situations. Did I mention Desoul 2 has a 1 radius? You can axe (or scythe I guess) as many as 5 enemies with that spell. I also thought about using Muddle2 (radius 2) to confuse enemies, and then try to run past them and take out the boss. Promoting him to a sorceror with the Secret Book (also in the secret forest village) means he gains insane single target damage, but sucks at AoE. By this I mean summon spells do X damage divided by Y targets. X Can be as ridiculous as 40, 70, or higher towards the end of the game, but divide it by 3 guys and suddenly it's not so hot. Also you can't direct spells to be cast at the ground, only on enemies, so if you want to hit just 1 guy he can't have anyone adjacent to the target.
 
May - High movement, high attack, attacks from range. Another ranged attacker is great early on, and May is about tied with Elric for best ranged unit in the game, so if I go with a ranged unit it's probably her.
 
Eric - He rocks. He usually has insane HP, attack, defense, can attack from range, flies if promoted to a Pegasus Knight (requires keeping him as a KNGT past 20, typically), and has great movement. The only reason I might not use him is because he's one of the 4 characters you get from Creed, and ALL of them are the at least tied for best in their class. Especially Karna.
 
Karna - She has the highest growths in the game in more than one attribute and is about top 5 in all of the rest. If promoted via Vigor Ball to a MMNK, she can spam Boost1/2 on units to receive massive XP, which when combined with her natural sky-high growths and the innate awesomeness of being a healing-attacker makes her highly desirable. Also, Boost and Aura are great spells. So what's the problem? First of all, she's a Creed's Mansion character, so I lose out on the others if I pick her. Secondly, she will stay a CLRC for a LONG time unless I save the Vigor Ball from the secret forest village for her, in which case I'll probably ditch Sarah. Thirdly, it takes some time to properly abuse the Boost XP spam, so it's either something I base entire strategies around or pretty much don't use. It might be awesome to spend some time sending her up to level 70 or so and then have her solo the game, but I have no idea if this will gain time over a more typical playthrough. I think it's worth a test, so I'll check that out.
 
Tyrin - Another Creed character. He gets all the mage damage spells, Blaze/Freeze/Bolt. He doesn't have the all-aroundness of Kazin (plus Kazin has the highest agility in the game), but having a single target spell like Blaze4 or Freeze4 on top of a radius 2 spell like Bolt2 or 3 is great for doing what mages usually do best, blowing things up. If I wanted a summoner (that's basically what SORCs do) I would stick with Kazin, so he'd definitely go WIZ if I chose him. I also don't know if I'd take him and Kazin.
 
Elric - Competes with May for the title of best ranged character. Well, in the attack from 3 panels with a basic attack kind of ranged anyway. May has the higher movement and attack, while Elric has a fair bit more HP and a bit more DEF. Typically I want to keep my ranged unit... at range.. and not taking hits, so I'm leaning towards May right now.
 
Frayja - He's not an attacker, at all. He heals. He does a good job at healing, but usually Sarah and/or Karna are enough. The reason I haven't ruled him out is because he knows Aura, which is just great. The other is a spell only he can learn: Attack. It.. boosts attack (go figure). Obviously this is a very desirable thing in a speed run. I might have him tag along as the attack-mule, but dealing with his turn every round might not be worth it.

mithical87

2008-05-02 07:32:10 am

Freelance slacker

People I've ruled out:
Randolf - He edges out Jaha in almost every category, but I'd rather have the benefits of one of the other Creed characters.

Slade - I thought about Slade for awhile. People often make him out to be a better character than he is. Well, he is as good as they say, but only when he's good and leveled up. The problem with Slade is he starts out very weak. Then as he approaches level 20, he becomes.... average, at best. Then as a ninja he becomes.. good, I guess. It's not until you start learning some higher level jutsus and having the MP to cast more than 1 does Slade become a great character. He becomes one of the best when you craft him a Gisarme. I have no idea what levels I'll end up with so I don't know if struggling with early-game Slade makes up for late-game Slade. I'm pretty damn sure mithril weapons will eat up more time than they will save, but the decapitation on the Gisarme does go off a lot. Like, over 25% or so.

Luke - Luke flies, sure, but Luke sucks. A bird holding a sword and shield is pretty cool, but all of his stats are average at best. The result is a flying unit who can't do anything well. If he's lucky, he'll participate in some battle where he flies to a boss with Peter and kills it. I guess having a flier helps in the Kraken fight.

Zync - Great stats, special robot laser crit, terrible terrible movement. He often lags behind and ends up not being able to land the strong hits you need at the beginning of a skirmish. You could boost his movement like crazy but those items are very limited and generally more useful elsewhere.

Rick - The second best of the centaurs. I admit I've never used more than one and that is usually Eric. He is kinda all around-ish, doesn't excel in any one stat enough to warrant use. You can't really tank with him, you can't take off big chunks of HP, and he doesn't cast anything. It's kind of unfair to sum him up that way but from a speed perspective I think the well-rounded characters are not the way to go.

Jaro - Is a flying centaur, but his stats are low. They don't get any better, either. If my late game strategy starts falling apart, maybe there will be a place for him.

Sheela - After the aforementioned praise of the MMNK, the one unit who comes as one probably won't be used. Her stats are all around lower than the other 2 potential monks, and her spells are less useful. She does have boost though, which makes for more XP spam if that turns out to be a viable strategy. She also takes a bit of extra time to acquire. For now, she's benched.

Chaz - He's not going to be as good as the other 2 mages. If I find out magic is the way to go or something, then he'll probably find a place in battle.

Claude - Takes awhile to acquire thanks to being located in a weird spot and having to locate his stupid arm before you can get him. I'm also not sure what the mechanics behind the appearance of his arm is. Anyway he's got some of the best raw attack and defence, but he suffers from Zync-syndrome, terrible movement. He's also rumoured to have some built-in magic resistance.

Lemon - Another well-rounded character. If my levels are super low or something then he might replace someone just because of his level but for now I'd rather have more attack or more defence.

Everyone else generally sucks outright and I shouldn't have to mention their names to anyone who is familiar with the game.

Other things worth mentioning:
Rings are sexy. They cast helpful spells, especially the Power Ring early on. Can be equipped for a power boost and can be used to cast 'Attack' (raises attack). I might even luck-abuse them (they have a %chance to crack on use, and after that a %chance to break and disappear, you can repair cracked rings).

Items that boost stats can range from great to trivial. Quick chicken to boost agility isn't worth going out of my way for since you can't get more turns than anybody else, just placed higher up the turn list.
Boosting MP is only really helpful for Bowie or Slade, but I probably won't be worried about casting Bolt with Bowie or using Slade at all.
Boosting defense can be helpful, especially on a tank character. Nothing says wasted-enemy-turn like an enemy running up from max range and hitting you for 1 damage.
Boosting HP is always good, especially for trouble characters (like May).
Boosting attack is always great, especially the power water acquirable after just the first battle. It can be manipulated to give +4 attack to units who are only hitting for 3-5 damage, quite a boost. If I decide to use Sarah as a monk I might give it to her early on so I have someone else to deal damage with.

Mithril items are probably a no-go. You need to acquire them, first of all. Many are but 2 steps off the shortest path through the game, but there's messages and inventory space to worry about. Then you need to complete a sidequest which requires a lot of travel and talking. THEN at THE END of the game you need to traverse the dwarven village, place your order(s), leave, traverse it again, and pray to god he forged you something useful. On an emulator, with increased speed, and save states, it once took me 2 hours to acquire Slade's Gisarme. Shocked

Special promotion items: Jaha's warrior pride isn't far off the beaten path but I'll need to maneuver around a secret village to grab Sarah's/Karna's vigor ball for the MMNK class. Kazin's/Tyrin's Secret Book for the SORC class is also here but I think I'll stick with the wizard class. The pegasus wing for the PGKT class doesn't take up much time to get, but has a different hinderance of being a good chunk of the game ahead of when I'd be promoting my characters. This means whoever gets it will have to gain some levels in their unpromoted class (and have lower stats thank to lower growths). They will get to enjoy a nice XP boost thanks to reverting to level 1 (the game thinks you're LVL21 even if you promote as late as 40), so this might actually be a desirable course of action. Speed gained earlier vs. speed gained later... tough call. The silver tank will rot inside it's treasure chest because the BRGR class is terrible.

Wow, okay, that was a lot. I think I'll wait for feedback on this stuff before talking about some specific early game decisions.
Main things to decide:
- MMNK Boost spam to grind levels, then stomp through the game?
- Abuse desoul and/or muddle to get to bosses earlier?
- Focus on how many characters?
- Will levels be high thanks to focusing on fewer characters, or low because of speeding through the game?
- Based on those, what characters should be used? (This includes things like ditch Sarah and just use items)

Like I said, most of the speed in a game like this comes from the planning, and I'm just getting started. I would love to soak up as much knowledge and input as you guys have for me, so let's hear it.

[u]People I've ruled out:[/u]
Randolf - He edges out Jaha in almost every category, but I'd rather have the benefits of one of the other Creed characters.

Slade - I thought about Slade for awhile. People often make him out to be a better character than he is. Well, he is as good as they say, but only when he's good and leveled up. The problem with Slade is he starts out very weak. Then as he approaches level 20, he becomes.... average, at best. Then as a ninja he becomes.. good, I guess. It's not until you start learning some higher level jutsus and having the MP to cast more than 1 does Slade become a great character. He becomes one of the best when you craft him a Gisarme. I have no idea what levels I'll end up with so I don't know if struggling with early-game Slade makes up for late-game Slade. I'm pretty damn sure mithril weapons will eat up more time than they will save, but the decapitation on the Gisarme does go off a lot. Like, over 25% or so.

Luke - Luke flies, sure, but Luke sucks. A bird holding a sword and shield is pretty cool, but all of his stats are average at best. The result is a flying unit who can't do anything well. If he's lucky, he'll participate in some battle where he flies to a boss with Peter and kills it. I guess having a flier helps in the Kraken fight.

Zync - Great stats, special robot laser crit, terrible terrible movement. He often lags behind and ends up not being able to land the strong hits you need at the beginning of a skirmish. You could boost his movement like crazy but those items are very limited and generally more useful elsewhere.

Rick - The second best of the centaurs. I admit I've never used more than one and that is usually Eric. He is kinda all around-ish, doesn't excel in any one stat enough to warrant use. You can't really tank with him, you can't take off big chunks of HP, and he doesn't cast anything. It's kind of unfair to sum him up that way but from a speed perspective I think the well-rounded characters are not the way to go.

Jaro - Is a flying centaur, but his stats are low. They don't get any better, either. If my late game strategy starts falling apart, maybe there will be a place for him.

Sheela - After the aforementioned praise of the MMNK, the one unit who comes as one probably won't be used. Her stats are all around lower than the other 2 potential monks, and her spells are less useful. She does have boost though, which makes for more XP spam if that turns out to be a viable strategy. She also takes a bit of extra time to acquire. For now, she's benched.

Chaz - He's not going to be as good as the other 2 mages. If I find out magic is the way to go or something, then he'll probably find a place in battle.

Claude - Takes awhile to acquire thanks to being located in a weird spot and having to locate his stupid arm before you can get him. I'm also not sure what the mechanics behind the appearance of his arm is. Anyway he's got some of the best raw attack and defence, but he suffers from Zync-syndrome, terrible movement. He's also rumoured to have some built-in magic resistance.

Lemon - Another well-rounded character. If my levels are super low or something then he might replace someone just because of his level but for now I'd rather have more attack or more defence.

Everyone else generally sucks outright and I shouldn't have to mention their names to anyone who is familiar with the game.

Other things worth mentioning:
Rings are sexy. They cast helpful spells, especially the Power Ring early on. Can be equipped for a power boost and can be used to cast 'Attack' (raises attack). I might even luck-abuse them (they have a %chance to crack on use, and after that a %chance to break and disappear, you can repair cracked rings).

Items that boost stats can range from great to trivial. Quick chicken to boost agility isn't worth going out of my way for since you can't get more turns than anybody else, just placed higher up the turn list.
Boosting MP is only really helpful for Bowie or Slade, but I probably won't be worried about casting Bolt with Bowie or using Slade at all. 
Boosting defense can be helpful, especially on a tank character. Nothing says wasted-enemy-turn like an enemy running up from max range and hitting you for 1 damage.
Boosting HP is always good, especially for trouble characters (like May).
Boosting attack is always great, especially the power water acquirable after just the first battle. It can be manipulated to give +4 attack to units who are only hitting for 3-5 damage, quite a boost. If I decide to use Sarah as a monk I might give it to her early on so I have someone else to deal damage with.

Mithril items are probably a no-go. You need to acquire them, first of all. Many are but 2 steps off the shortest path through the game, but there's messages and inventory space to worry about. Then you need to complete a sidequest which requires a lot of travel and talking. THEN at THE END of the game you need to traverse the dwarven village, place your order(s), leave, traverse it again, and pray to god he forged you something useful. On an emulator, with increased speed, and save states, it once took me 2 hours to acquire Slade's Gisarme.   :o

Special promotion items: Jaha's warrior pride isn't far off the beaten path but I'll need to maneuver around a secret village to grab Sarah's/Karna's vigor ball for the MMNK class. Kazin's/Tyrin's Secret Book for the SORC class is also here but I think I'll stick with the wizard class. The pegasus wing for the PGKT class doesn't take up much time to get, but has a different hinderance of being a good chunk of the game ahead of when I'd be promoting my characters. This means whoever gets it will have to gain some levels in their unpromoted class (and have lower stats thank to lower growths). They will get to enjoy a nice XP boost thanks to reverting to level 1 (the game thinks you're LVL21 even if you promote as late as 40), so this might actually be a desirable course of action. Speed gained earlier vs. speed gained later... tough call. The silver tank will rot inside it's treasure chest because the BRGR class is terrible.

Wow, okay, that was a lot. I think I'll wait for feedback on this stuff before talking about some specific early game decisions.
Main things to decide:
 - MMNK Boost spam to grind levels, then stomp through the game?
 - Abuse desoul and/or muddle to get to bosses earlier?
 - Focus on how many characters?
 - Will levels be high thanks to focusing on fewer characters, or low because of speeding through the game?
- Based on those, what characters should be used? (This includes things like ditch Sarah and just use items)

Like I said, most of the speed in a game like this comes from the planning, and I'm just getting started. I would love to soak up as much knowledge and input as you guys have for me, so let's hear it.

nate

2008-05-02 07:39:51 am

i support this. have you seen the tas work in progress? the input manipulation probably will not help you but there may be some other things in there you could assimilate.

RaneofSOTN

2008-05-02 07:47:51 am

I want off the ride....

having just watched my room mate cleave this game in twine (he abused the "save n quit" until he got levels he approved of), You have a limit of 12 characters on field?.. only thing I can really say is, you probably wanna focus on 5-6 characters. I think thats about the limit and its a safe enough number. You have some good picks, though if you are going to change a healer to MMNK aren't you going to require some good ATK buffs? So I mean you look like you got it mostly figured out. Without egress farming I think 5-6 characters are going to be the limit for keeping steady leveling/killing/speed. Though the make up I'd probably think 1 mage, 1 healer/damager (MMNK as you pointed out) and the other 3-4 just straight damage, probably 1 ranged (cause you can only have 4 people around 1 target). this would allow probably for the max damage possible. Anymore after about that point could be hindering to you.

GL if you try it, and I would say the TAS probably has the best strategies (fewest movements probably) thought he luck abuse could be crazy.

having just watched my room mate cleave this game in twine (he abused the "save n quit" until he got levels he approved of), You have a limit of 12 characters on field?.. only thing I can really say is, you probably wanna focus on 5-6 characters. I think thats about the limit and its a safe enough number. You have some good picks, though if you are going to change a healer to MMNK aren't you going to require some good ATK buffs? So I mean you look like you got it mostly figured out. Without egress farming I think 5-6 characters are going to be the limit for keeping steady leveling/killing/speed. Though the make up I'd probably think 1 mage, 1 healer/damager (MMNK as you pointed out) and the other 3-4 just straight damage, probably 1 ranged (cause you can only have 4 people around 1 target). this would allow probably for the max damage possible. Anymore after about that point could be hindering to you.

GL if you try it, and I would say the TAS probably has the best strategies (fewest movements probably) thought he luck abuse could be crazy.

mithical87

Edit history:

mithical87: 2008-05-02 06:49:09 pm

2008-05-02 06:12:41 pm

Freelance slacker

Thanks for the support! I checked out the TAS thread but not the WIP, I'll be sure to do that. I know that DarkKobold was unable to pull off the insane manipulation he could in SF1 so hopefully the strategies will be a little closer to the realm of possibility.

As for the MMNK, their damage is usually above average because the weapons they can equip (Knuckles, even though they kick...) are typically the strongest in the game. I probably will give Sarah some power water love if I decide to go with her as my MMNK so she can do more than heal early on (you'd be surprised how much she can whack things for).

EDIT: Oh great, DarkKobold abuses a glitch to go through walls this time. I'm pretty sure it's recreatable on a console but he uses luck manipulation to make sure he doesn't get manhandled by everyone on the other side of the wall in the 5th battle. I did learn however, that you can lose the 4th battle and still continue the game. I honestly had no idea until I saw it done just now. :-[

Thanks for the support! I checked out the TAS thread but not the WIP, I'll be sure to do that. I know that DarkKobold was unable to pull off the insane manipulation he could in SF1 so hopefully the strategies will be a little closer to the realm of possibility.

As for the MMNK, their damage is usually above average because the weapons they can equip (Knuckles, even though they kick...) are typically the strongest in the game. I probably will give Sarah some power water love if I decide to go with her as my MMNK so she can do more than heal early on (you'd be surprised how much she can whack things for).

EDIT: Oh great, DarkKobold abuses a glitch to go through walls this time. I'm pretty sure it's recreatable on a console but he uses luck manipulation to make sure he doesn't get manhandled by everyone on the other side of the wall in the 5th battle. I did learn however, that you can lose the 4th battle and still continue the game. I honestly had no idea until I saw it done just now.  :-[

Caos2

2008-05-02 11:53:21 pm

Lurkin' and watching!

Looking forward to this one!

-C2

getter77

2008-05-03 01:43:01 am

100% runs=great to watch

Hmm...I'd say the best thing to work towards is having a hard hitter or so, flyer and/or sniper, and then perhaps throw EVERYTHING else into group nukers and let the MP flow away like butter...since so many stages boil down a a "gotta kill 'em all!" routine.

I also fully support and encourage this run...but you've missed one critical point:

Hardest mode? Easiest? Random perceived "sweet sport" in between? Pretty huge decision, IIRC as to how this will all play out with your sanity and success.

mithical87

2008-05-03 04:26:00 am

Freelance slacker

Yes, truth be told I didn't give much thought to the difficulty. The run I'm playing through right now via emulator (no .gmv files though, it's just an information gathering process and I don't want to have to restart segments for stupid errors) is on easy, and I already anticipate much trouble ahead. I managed fairly early leader-kills on 3 battles, as well as one that can be entirely skipped that I didn't know about (thanks GameFAQs!), and the resulting XP loss has me underleveled.

I used Chester and Luke until they were level 16 before ditching them, but it's kind of weird. The levels of enemies jumps quite rapidly at the Kraken battle and beyond. Before the Kraken fight I was cruising at a good level somewhere between 'average' and 'too high'. After ending the Kraken fight early by rushing after it's head, the next battle had me underleveled. I quickly ditched Luke and stopped killing things with Chester but I've been unable to get the other 7 up to that sweet spot. This is probably thanks to skipping the battle after Taros.

I managed to beat the battle where you save Elric from the harpies with the 7 force members at level 18-1P (1 promoted), but it required a lot of luck. Peter dodged 2 fatal blows, Kazin landed a desoul on a full-hp harpy, Jaha died and had to be resurrected after, etc. It's not like I was rushing ahead either, I was staying defensive and doing my best to come out alive. It's worth noting that this battle is hard even when you're properly leveled and using 10 or more guys, so it's great that it's still winnable. The problem is I used more turns for healing and waiting to lure enemies.

I wonder now if the time saved from skipping all those enemies/entire battle is worth the time I'll lose from these sorts of actions. For now, I will say yes.

What's truly worrying is there is only 1 battle between me and the chessboard battle in Desktop Kingdom. At least the 1 battle is a wide open area with grouped enemies so I can focus fire them down. The chess battle, however, is a contender for hardest in the game.

The King is close but all of the pieces are unfairly strong. The worst part is there's no room to divide or lure enemies. Once you cross the halfway point a ton of them spring to life and the bloodbath begins. I suppose my plan will be to hit May with the power ring, then give it to her, have her equip it, and then try to double attack the king. If that doesn't work, I need to hope the king comes to me so I can finish him (and that he doesn't get a heal from the bishops). I could also go back and take Rick to have a javelin to throw + Elric for another shot at him. I'd hate to have to spread more XP when I'm already underleveled so this is more of a last resort option.

Judging from how this goes, I'll see if my decision to play on easy (it's actually 'normal'; the rest are 'hard', 'super', and 'ouch!') was a good one.

Yes, truth be told I didn't give much thought to the difficulty. The run I'm playing through right now via emulator (no .gmv files though, it's just an information gathering process and I don't want to have to restart segments for stupid errors) is on easy, and I already anticipate much trouble ahead. I managed fairly early leader-kills on 3 battles, as well as one that can be entirely skipped that I didn't know about (thanks GameFAQs!), and the resulting XP loss has me underleveled.

I used Chester and Luke until they were level 16 before ditching them, but it's kind of weird. The levels of enemies jumps quite rapidly at the Kraken battle and beyond. Before the Kraken fight I was cruising at a good level somewhere between 'average' and 'too high'. After ending the Kraken fight early by rushing after it's head, the next battle had me underleveled. I quickly ditched Luke and stopped killing things with Chester but I've been unable to get the other 7 up to that sweet spot. This is probably thanks to skipping the battle after Taros.

I managed to beat the battle where you save Elric from the harpies with the 7 force members at level 18-1P (1 promoted), but it required a lot of luck. Peter dodged 2 fatal blows, Kazin landed a desoul on a full-hp harpy, Jaha died and had to be resurrected after, etc. It's not like I was rushing ahead either, I was staying defensive and doing my best to come out alive. It's worth noting that this battle is hard even when you're properly leveled and using 10 or more guys, so it's great that it's still winnable. The problem is I used more turns for healing and waiting to lure enemies.

I wonder now if the time saved from skipping all those enemies/entire battle is worth the time I'll lose from these sorts of actions. For now, I will say yes.

What's truly worrying is there is only 1 battle between me and the chessboard battle in Desktop Kingdom. At least the 1 battle is a wide open area with grouped enemies so I can focus fire them down. The chess battle, however, is a contender for hardest in the game.

The King is close but all of the pieces are unfairly strong. The worst part is there's no room to divide or lure enemies. Once you cross the halfway point a ton of them spring to life and the bloodbath begins. I suppose my plan will be to hit May with the power ring, then give it to her, have her equip it, and then try to double attack the king. If that doesn't work, I need to hope the king comes to me so I can finish him (and that he doesn't get a heal from the bishops). I could also go back and take Rick to have a javelin to throw + Elric for another shot at him. I'd hate to have to spread more XP when I'm already underleveled so this is more of a last resort option.

Judging from how this goes, I'll see if my decision to play on easy (it's actually 'normal'; the rest are 'hard', 'super', and 'ouch!') was a good one.

getter77

2008-05-03 05:01:07 am

100% runs=great to watch

IN THEORY, with a nuker squad you could get away MASSIVELY with using, shall we say, less than cutting edge weapons with your physical attackers that actually need weapons...as well as under-leveledness with innate folk like Peter and Gamera (whom, despite his sacred coolness, probably isn't one for speedrunning....save some kinda 100% hardest mode run or something)

Gist of it would be to wear nasty folk down sufficiently to where the lower output of the direct attackers doesn't matter...since they only have that much HP left and/or massive use of Desoul/Muddle to even things out. Money saved could be used well on MP refills and whatnot....it might even be possible to get away with not using a healer for much of the game if enough pain can be unleashed in a torrential fashion. Live and let die and all that jazz. Nuker squad would also help bypass the EXP chicanery that would usually screw with single target characters of both the under and over leveled variety since the multi target caps at 49 total from a baseline of a solid 2 digit number in quick succession...whereas a lone Jaha and such hacking away will take quite some time and damage to manage such a feat. Even as the enemies get more lively, that radius will keep on growing...hence allowing you to hopefully sustain some excellent growth of mid 20's-49EXP gained per pain rained down upon.

Magic is the only thing more broken overall than Peter in this game, comparable to heroism of Gamera. Imagine the contrast to Fire Emblem stuff on the site. 8)

Until somebody does FEDA: Emblem of Justice....but that tale is for another day....mwahahahaha~

IN THEORY, with a nuker squad you could get away MASSIVELY with using, shall we say, less than cutting edge weapons with your physical attackers that actually need weapons...as well as under-leveledness with innate folk like Peter and Gamera  (whom, despite his sacred coolness, probably isn't one for speedrunning....save some kinda 100% hardest mode run or something)

Gist of it would be to wear nasty folk down sufficiently to where the lower output of the direct attackers doesn't matter...since they only have that much HP left and/or massive use of Desoul/Muddle to even things out.  Money saved could be used well on MP refills and whatnot....it might even be possible to get away with not using a healer for much of the game if enough pain can be unleashed in a torrential fashion.  Live and let die and all that jazz.  Nuker squad would also help bypass the EXP chicanery that would usually screw with single target characters of both the under and over leveled variety since the multi target caps at 49 total from a baseline of a solid 2 digit number in quick succession...whereas a lone Jaha and such hacking away will take quite some time and damage to manage such a feat.  Even as the enemies get more lively, that radius will keep on growing...hence allowing you to hopefully sustain some excellent growth of mid 20's-49EXP gained per pain rained down upon.

Magic is the only thing more broken overall than Peter in this game, comparable to heroism of Gamera.  Imagine the contrast to Fire Emblem stuff on the site.   8)

Until somebody does FEDA: Emblem of Justice....but that tale is for another day....mwahahahaha~

mithical87

2008-05-04 12:12:28 am

Freelance slacker

Sorry but who's Gamera? I know all 30 characters so it's obviously another name for one of them.. maybe Kiki the little turtle / gigantic hovering turtle? Oh, and gold (currently) isn't a problem. I have always had more than enough for what I need, and I haven't even picked up any mythril to sell. There are at least 4 mythrils that take as few as 20 extra steps which is 10000 more gold, and a bunch more than may take like 40 or 50 steps. With this setup I only need weapons for Bowie, Sarah, Jaha, May, and Eric.

As for a nuker squad, it's good in theory but for at least a third of the game you have Kazin at Blaze2 (3 at lvl2P) and Sarah at Blast2 (fairly high, lvl16 or so). Slade gets magic as a ninja but again that's a little bit after promoted, plus his MP is next to nothing. I could pick up Tyrin at Creeds, which gives me Kazin and Tyrin doing good AoE damage, Sarah doing meh AoE damage, and Slade not doing much AoE damage at all. The next caster is Taya who is past halfway through the game, sucks, and starts with the worst SORC spell. Due to the nature of SORCs her AoE damage is weak anyway. After that it's Chaz right at the end of the game. I suppose there is also Bowie and his like.. 1 bolt spell. I just don't think there's enough casters to make it work.

It also doesn't help that most battles are in a very big area with enemies scattered throughout. Having to group them to hit them with AoE will mean taking multiple hits, and then I'd need to heal that person with Sarah, so I've only got 2 reliable characters for AoE.

I'll give it a shot because anything is worth testing but I have my doubts.

Sorry but who's Gamera? I know all 30 characters so it's obviously another name for one of them.. maybe Kiki the little turtle / gigantic hovering turtle? Oh, and gold (currently) isn't a problem. I have always had more than enough for what I need, and I haven't even picked up any mythril to sell. There are at least 4 mythrils that take as few as 20 extra steps which is 10000 more gold, and a bunch more than may take like 40 or 50 steps. With this setup I only need weapons for Bowie, Sarah, Jaha, May, and Eric.

As for a nuker squad, it's good in theory but for at least a third of the game you have Kazin at Blaze2 (3 at lvl2P) and Sarah at Blast2 (fairly high, lvl16 or so). Slade gets magic as a ninja but again that's a little bit after promoted, plus his MP is next to nothing. I could pick up Tyrin at Creeds, which gives me Kazin and Tyrin doing good AoE damage, Sarah doing meh AoE damage, and Slade not doing much AoE damage at all. The next caster is Taya who is past halfway through the game, sucks, and starts with the worst SORC spell. Due to the nature of SORCs her AoE damage is weak anyway. After that it's Chaz right at the end of the game. I suppose there is also Bowie and his like.. 1 bolt spell. I just don't think there's enough casters to make it work.

It also doesn't help that most battles are in a very big area with enemies scattered throughout. Having to group them to hit them with AoE will mean taking multiple hits, and then I'd need to heal that person with Sarah, so I've only got 2 reliable characters for AoE.

I'll give it a shot because anything is worth testing but I have my doubts.

getter77

2008-05-04 01:29:45 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Kiki is what I and most others call Gamera...since his character is a direct homage to Gamera of movie monster fame. Same way "Brownie" in Contra Hard Corps is REALLY Combattler V of Super Robot fame.

I'd forgotten about selling mythrils since I always tended to just forge them....that'll help big time. I'd say items might be even more abusable then magic then since you'd essentially be loaded beyond what is normal.

Gonna go for the rare drops that might be useful like the Attack Orbs that offer locked in/ no miss damage for that one use each regardless of the single target or character that uses it? Could be right handy.

With the nukers, I guess I forgot to imply that some faction would be single target and/or Desoul/Muddle for single targets and weird stuff in general. Since this is segmented and all. Magic where you can afford many refills and most things will die without even getting off an attack...seems good in theory. But your testing will hopefully prove me horribly wrong...as otherwise would lead to a faster run. 8)

Kiki is what I and most others call Gamera...since his character is a direct homage to Gamera of movie monster fame.  Same way "Brownie" in Contra Hard Corps is REALLY Combattler V of Super Robot fame.

I'd forgotten about selling mythrils since I always tended to just forge them....that'll help big time.  I'd say items might be even more abusable then magic then since you'd essentially be loaded beyond what is normal.

Gonna go for the rare drops that might be useful like the Attack Orbs that offer locked in/ no miss damage for that one use each regardless of the single target or character that uses it?  Could be right handy.

With the nukers, I guess I forgot to imply that some faction would be single target and/or Desoul/Muddle for single targets and weird stuff in general.  Since this is segmented and all.  Magic where you can afford many refills and most things will die without even getting off an attack...seems good in theory.  But your testing will hopefully prove me horribly wrong...as otherwise would lead to a faster run.   8)

mithical87

2008-05-07 06:35:15 pm

Freelance slacker

SDA has rules against leaving a game's boundaries right? There's a glitch that has been brought to my attention by the guys at tasvideos where you can have a character move out of their movement range onto any square, regardless of terrain. You can use this glitch to get to the other side of the river running under Galam's bridge in the 6th battle. If you put Bowie on the other side and finish the battle, it gives you control of Bowie on the world map where he was last standing. Those familiar with the game know that you're not supposed to be behind Galam until what is pretty much the end of the game.

This might look useless at first because you walk right into the red baron battle, but you can enter Galam from the north and search one of the bushes for the evil shot. Afterwards you get into the battle with the red baron and egress back to safety. The evil/dark/black items are all the strongest in the game, but curse the user. The curse would probably be worth it to have May one-shotting people for the first half of the game. I'd have to avoid overusing her because the XP caps are still there, but I could use her to take out leaders or key targets in sticky situations.

It's also possible to get onto the tiny spot of land in the top right corner and walk to one of the game's later towns, where you can purchase the best buyable items in the game. It is possible to afford at least 1 by selling mithril (there's a total of 3 by this point, 2 of which are 0-2 steps off the optimal route). Mithrils sell for 2500 each and the best weapons are all around 5000. I wouldn't be able to use whatever I buy until I promote the character who would wield it, but it would obviously provide a big boost in damage for the middle third of the game or so. Again, I would egress out of a battle and return to the regular game.

I'm thinking nothing says out of bounds like leap frogging off a unit over an uncrossable river, but I figured it's still worth it to ask. If you want to see the glitch in action, here's DarkKobold's demo.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/965376030/Inescapablebattle.gmv

You'll want to frame skip to the 6th battle, it's after the indoor one with the brown tiles and blue carpet. Actually I found the TAS WIP to be pretty entertaining, so you might want to watch the first 5 battles.

SDA has rules against leaving a game's boundaries right? There's a glitch that has been brought to my attention by the guys at tasvideos where you can have a character move out of their movement range onto any square, regardless of terrain. You can use this glitch to get to the other side of the river running under Galam's bridge in the 6th battle. If you put Bowie on the other side and finish the battle, it gives you control of Bowie on the world map where he was last standing. Those familiar with the game know that you're not supposed to be behind Galam until what is pretty much the end of the game.

This might look useless at first because you walk right into the red baron battle, but you can enter Galam from the north and search one of the bushes for the evil shot. Afterwards you get into the battle with the red baron and egress back to safety. The evil/dark/black items are all the strongest in the game, but curse the user. The curse would probably be worth it to have May one-shotting people for the first half of the game. I'd have to avoid overusing her because the XP caps are still there, but I could use her to take out leaders or key targets in sticky situations.

It's also possible to get onto the tiny spot of land in the top right corner and walk to one of the game's later towns, where you can purchase the best buyable items in the game. It is possible to afford at least 1 by selling mithril (there's a total of 3 by this point, 2 of which are 0-2 steps off the optimal route). Mithrils sell for 2500 each and the best weapons are all around 5000. I wouldn't be able to use whatever I buy until I promote the character who would wield it, but it would obviously provide a big boost in damage for the middle third of the game or so. Again, I would egress out of a battle and return to the regular game.

I'm thinking nothing says out of bounds like leap frogging off a unit over an uncrossable river, but I figured it's still worth it to ask. If you want to see the glitch in action, here's DarkKobold's demo.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/965376030/Inescapablebattle.gmv

You'll want to frame skip to the 6th battle, it's after the indoor one with the brown tiles and blue carpet. Actually I found the TAS WIP to be pretty entertaining, so you might want to watch the first 5 battles.

Lag.Com

2008-05-07 07:09:53 pm

sda loyalist

That rule is no longer in effect. Glitch away!

Enhasa

2008-05-07 09:21:30 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

I'm thinking nothing says out of bounds like leap frogging off a unit over an uncrossable river, but I figured it's still worth it to ask.

I could be wrong, but this doesn't even sound like OOB in the first place. :-/

mithical87

2008-05-08 04:17:19 pm

Freelance slacker

Well it's more OOB because you leap frog off a unit into an uninhabitable river, and then walk out of it on your next turn. I guess you do stay inside the designated rectangular battlefield, you just spend a turn on an uninhabitable tile.

Well now I need to seriously think about this. I just realized May couldn't use the Evil Shot 'til she gets promoted like the character I'd buy a weapon for, so the first ~1/3 of the game would be a more traditional playthrough. After promotion though, it's likely 2 characters will be able to 1-shot things. This will help immensely with headache battles like the harpies in battle 20, the chess battle (assassinate the King in one turn!), and probably onward for a very big part of the game. It might be worth it to switch to the Nazca Cannon/Buster Shot when I get those, but the Evil Shot is still a good deal stronger.

If I buy a sword I could pass it between Bowie and Jaha if one of their levels gets too high. There are 3 swords stronger than the Great Sword, 2 of which you are guaranteed to get, so it's a guarantee that I would eventually ditch my Great Swords. Whereas I think Eric will be stuck with a Chrome Lance and Javelin (!) for the entire game. Most cursed weapons have a -defense on them (Knuckles don't have any downside, 'cept being cursed) but the Evil Lance is unique in that it has a -2 MOV! That's awful! Except... it is possible to equip a weapon, move to max range, then equip the Evil Lance and attack with it. =)

I'm strongly considering grabbing all the cursed weapons towards the end of the game. Sometimes it would be nice to be able to equip one for that extra power to take out something I really don't want to get another turn. They'll be worth using against bosses too, given my sanity holds out through the resets. I wonder what the %chance of the curse taking effect is...

I was disheartened to learn the White Ring is in the dwarven village. I have to go to the dwarven cave anyway so I can pick up the dry stone there, and you pass right by the village, so it's still an option. It gives Bowie 15 defense and lets him use it to cast Aura 2, a Range 3 Radius 2 heal for 18 points. I guess I'll see what kind of difference it makes soon, I'm approaching the last quarter of the game in my test playthrough.

Well it's more OOB because you leap frog off a unit [i]into[/i] an uninhabitable river, and then walk out of it on your next turn. I guess you do stay inside the designated rectangular battlefield, you just spend a turn on an uninhabitable tile.

Well now I need to seriously think about this. I just realized May couldn't use the Evil Shot 'til she gets promoted like the character I'd buy a weapon for, so the first ~1/3 of the game would be a more traditional playthrough. After promotion though, it's likely 2 characters will be able to 1-shot things. This will help immensely with headache battles like the harpies in battle 20, the chess battle (assassinate the King in one turn!), and probably onward for a very big part of the game. It might be worth it to switch to the Nazca Cannon/Buster Shot when I get those, but the Evil Shot is still a good deal stronger.

If I buy a sword I could pass it between Bowie and Jaha if one of their levels gets too high. There are 3 swords stronger than the Great Sword, 2 of which you are guaranteed to get, so it's a guarantee that I would eventually ditch my Great Swords. Whereas I think Eric will be stuck with a Chrome Lance and Javelin (!) for the entire game. Most cursed weapons have a -defense on them (Knuckles don't have any downside, 'cept being cursed) but the Evil Lance is unique in that it has a -2 MOV! That's awful! Except... it is possible to equip a weapon, move to max range, then equip the Evil Lance and attack with it. =)

I'm strongly considering grabbing all the cursed weapons towards the end of the game. Sometimes it would be nice to be able to equip one for that extra power to take out something I really don't want to get another turn. They'll be worth using against bosses too, given my sanity holds out through the resets. I wonder what the %chance of the curse taking effect is...

I was disheartened to learn the White Ring is in the dwarven village. I have to go to the dwarven cave anyway so I can pick up the dry stone there, and you pass right by the village, so it's still an option. It gives Bowie 15 defense and lets him use it to cast Aura 2, a Range 3 Radius 2 heal for 18 points. I guess I'll see what kind of difference it makes soon, I'm approaching the last quarter of the game in my test playthrough.

nate

Edit history:

nate: 2008-05-08 08:58:57 pm

2008-05-08 08:58:06 pm

out-of-bounds doesn't really have any meaning in 2d games. "going through walls" type stuff has afaik always been allowed (as long as you appear on the other side of the wall that is).

Ishmayl

2008-05-15 12:00:09 pm

This sounds pretty awesome mithical87. I guess this would be considered a low % run, since you're skipping certain battles, not collecting all items, etc? Your idea of getting May the evil shot early on sounds like a fantastic idea.

I know everyone hates Kiwi, but I've always found him to be useful. His defense is second to none in the game, and when he is promoted to MSTR (Monster?), he has ridiculous movement, and pretty nasty damage too - especially that random fire breathing. It's unfortunate that his HP never catch up to everyone else, but I've beaten the game several times with him.

getter77

2008-05-15 06:41:36 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Yep, Kiwi (Gamera) is in fine form when promoted to Monster. Makes me think about restaring my special run of the game where I only use very inhuman characters other than a weak Bowie....kinda a Pokemon style...

nate

2008-05-16 08:16:34 am

rotfl.

anachrolicious.

mithical87

2008-05-16 12:46:45 pm

Freelance slacker

Sure Kiwi isn't so bad that you can't beat the game with him, but he's really not worth taking in a speed run. Early in the game you have to worry about magic killing him in one shot, plus his attack is garbage. After promotion his HP remains terrible, his attack is still low, his defense stops reducing physical damage to 1, and his only highlights are the random flame spurt and his unique 'hovering' movement. I think I would be sacrificing speed to bring in a 9th character, and I would much rather have Gerhalt or Eric over Kiwi.

He's actually third in the defense category, behind Claude (the golem) and Gyan (gladiator). Lemon, Jaha, Randolf, Bowie, and even Peter and Gerhalt are not far behind him, although Peter doesn't get Land Effect defense bonuses.

For categorization, looking at % completion is kind of weird since it has no concrete definition (nothing to keep track and display a %). Would you need to grab all 15 mithrils and forge them into the 15 weapons you can't acquire anywhere else? Would you have to buy 1 of everything from the store and keep them in your caravan? Would you have to complete the Fairy Woods Battle? Reset a jabillion times until enemies like the Minotaur and Demon Master drop their weapons on death? Technically a low% run would have to skip buying anything from shops and using only weapons that come from recruited characters, as well as quest weapons like the Achilles and Force Swords. And if you look at 100% as just being every battle and every character, it really doesn't change much from the any%/low%.

As for my testing, it seems the game is beatable with the 8 characters I chose. Their levels hover at about where they would be in a regular playthrough with 12 people. In the later sections of North Parmecia everyone starts to take a LOT of damage from everything, and Sarah can't keep up the healing on her own. I haven't worked out if it's faster to just accept that some people will die, or if I should buy healing drops and see if that keeps everyone alive. More people alive means more attacks and faster killing, but turns spent using items is also turns spent not attacking and slower killing.

The Evil Shot worked out well in the few battles I've encountered after it's acquisition (at the end of the game, not the glitched beginning), very rarely stunning her and wasting a turn. It would have a fairly high chance, 40% or so, of dealing 4-5 backlash damage though. A small price to pay for the damage it deals. If the other cursed weapons have the same chance to stun/backlash then I will try to pick up and use as many as I can. Unfortunately there's no reason to grab the Evil Axe since Lemon is mandatory and comes with the Dark Sword for Jaha. It's not worth it to give Bowie the Dark Sword and Jaha the axe when Bowie has the Force Sword. If only knights could use Axes because..

..I made an error with the Evil Lance equip swapping. I forgot you can't unequip cursed items, so abusing that programming oversight is a one-turn-a-battle thing and requires uncursing to do it again in the next battle.

I'm still testing if it's faster to skip the Evil Knuckles (requires going to Yeel and viewing all the scenes with Chaz) or if their awesome damage will speed up the end of the game (43 dmg on iron knuckles -> 63 on evil). I'm betting on them not being worth it, as much as I want to see Sarah kick demons for some very big numbers.

I thought Gerhalt and maybe even Peter would fall behind in terms of damage because their damage depends entirely on levels, but they do just fine. Peter actually has the highest attack of the group, although that might be because I let him get a couple levels ahead.

Kazin is mediocre for the middle chunk of the game, which had me reconsidering his placement on the team, but when he learns Blaze4 (Cameela battle for me) he becomes amazing right around the time you need him to be. The handful of battles before you can grab a plethora of cursed weapons and the Force Sword are really tough, and Blaze4 is incredibly useful for thinning out monsters. Blaze4 continues to do more damage than any physical attack all the way to the end of the game, and Kazin has the MP to use it as often as possible.

The protect ring really makes a difference in the later battles. Monsters go from being able to kill Jaha in 2-3 hits down to 4-5 hits. I try to hit as many frontline characters with it as I can on the turn just before a wave of enemies comes in.

Overall I'm learning lots and lots, but I've still got some things to try. Like grabbing Karna from Creed's mansion instead of Eric, power-leveling her in the Fairy Woods battle/with Boost2, and then trying to 1-woman-army through the game. I've been spending less and less time on it thanks to finally getting around to playing FF9, but I'm on the third disc now so it shouldn't be much longer until my concentration is back on SF2.

Sure Kiwi isn't so bad that you can't beat the game with him, but he's really not worth taking in a speed run. Early in the game you have to worry about magic killing him in one shot, plus his attack is garbage. After promotion his HP remains terrible, his attack is still low, his defense stops reducing physical damage to 1, and his only highlights are the random flame spurt and his unique 'hovering' movement. I think I would be sacrificing speed to bring in a 9th character, and I would much rather have Gerhalt or Eric over Kiwi.

He's actually third in the defense category, behind Claude (the golem) and Gyan (gladiator). Lemon, Jaha, Randolf, Bowie, and even Peter and Gerhalt are not far behind him, although Peter doesn't get Land Effect defense bonuses.

For categorization, looking at % completion is kind of weird since it has no concrete definition (nothing to keep track and display a %). Would you need to grab all 15 mithrils and forge them into the 15 weapons you can't acquire anywhere else? Would you have to buy 1 of everything from the store and keep them in your caravan? Would you have to complete the Fairy Woods Battle? Reset a jabillion times until enemies like the Minotaur and Demon Master drop their weapons on death? Technically a low% run would have to skip buying anything from shops and using only weapons that come from recruited characters, as well as quest weapons like the Achilles and Force Swords. And if you look at 100% as just being every battle and every character, it really doesn't change much from the any%/low%.

As for my testing, it seems the game is beatable with the 8 characters I chose. Their levels hover at about where they would be in a regular playthrough with 12 people. In the later sections of North Parmecia everyone starts to take a LOT of damage from everything, and Sarah can't keep up the healing on her own. I haven't worked out if it's faster to just accept that some people will die, or if I should buy healing drops and see if that keeps everyone alive. More people alive means more attacks and faster killing, but turns spent using items is also turns spent not attacking and slower killing.

The Evil Shot worked out well in the few battles I've encountered after it's acquisition (at the end of the game, not the glitched beginning), very rarely stunning her and wasting a turn. It would have a fairly high chance, 40% or so, of dealing 4-5 backlash damage though. A small price to pay for the damage it deals. If the other cursed weapons have the same chance to stun/backlash then I will try to pick up and use as many as I can. Unfortunately there's no reason to grab the Evil Axe since Lemon is mandatory and comes with the Dark Sword for Jaha. It's not worth it to give Bowie the Dark Sword and Jaha the axe when Bowie has the Force Sword. If only knights could use Axes because..

..I made an error with the Evil Lance equip swapping. I forgot you can't unequip cursed items, so abusing that programming oversight is a one-turn-a-battle thing and requires uncursing to do it again in the next battle.

I'm still testing if it's faster to skip the Evil Knuckles (requires going to Yeel and viewing all the scenes with Chaz) or if their awesome damage will speed up the end of the game (43 dmg on iron knuckles -> 63 on evil). I'm betting on them not being worth it, as much as I want to see Sarah kick demons for some very big numbers.

I thought Gerhalt and maybe even Peter would fall behind in terms of damage because their damage depends entirely on levels, but they do just fine. Peter actually has the highest attack of the group, although that might be because I let him get a couple levels ahead.

Kazin is mediocre for the middle chunk of the game, which had me reconsidering his placement on the team, but when he learns Blaze4 (Cameela battle for me) he becomes amazing right around the time you need him to be. The handful of battles before you can grab a plethora of cursed weapons and the Force Sword are really tough, and Blaze4 is incredibly useful for thinning out monsters. Blaze4 continues to do more damage than any physical attack all the way to the end of the game, and Kazin has the MP to use it as often as possible.

The protect ring really makes a difference in the later battles. Monsters go from being able to kill Jaha in 2-3 hits down to 4-5 hits. I try to hit as many frontline characters with it as I can on the turn just before a wave of enemies comes in.

Overall I'm learning lots and lots, but I've still got some things to try. Like grabbing Karna from Creed's mansion instead of Eric, power-leveling her in the Fairy Woods battle/with Boost2, and then trying to 1-woman-army through the game. I've been spending less and less time on it thanks to finally getting around to playing FF9, but I'm on the third disc now so it shouldn't be much longer until my concentration is back on SF2.

RaneofSOTN

2008-05-16 07:24:17 pm

I want off the ride....

I dont really know what to say.. but i'll put it this way. SF2 has a "save n quit" feature and if you dont mind segmenting in a fight (might seem wierd, but its not a SOFT SAVE at all), you could easily abuse stat inc if you time it for a few people, or if you are really worried about a certain aspect of the fight going perfectly you can do that too. I dont doubt it might add short bits of time to your run but it could save more. If you do go with the segmenting in a fight (to make things more manipulatable) then Kiwi's HP is easy to forget as if you time it right you can "Force" the hp level up. Aside from the fact it was a casual run, my room mate's kiwi had 20 hp at lvl 20 (he forced those HP's down his throat btw).
but i can agree he dies to magic and doesn't have the overall best defence. If anything a temp character for speed can help out if you find that in the later levels you aren't hitting an experience cap. then it might be worth it to drag kiwi in for a fight or two early for a faster kill. I know that he gets weaker as the game goes on so whatever.

I hope you'll do fine, you seem to be gathering knowledge at quite a rate really. So it I dont doubt what you will/are doing.

I dont really know what to say.. but i'll put it this way. SF2 has a "save n quit" feature and if you dont mind segmenting in a fight (might seem wierd, but its not a SOFT SAVE at all), you could easily abuse stat inc if you time it for a few people, or if you are really worried about a certain aspect of the fight going perfectly you can do that too. I dont doubt it might add short bits of time to your run but it could save more. If you do go with the segmenting in a fight (to make things more manipulatable) then Kiwi's HP is easy to forget as if you time it right you can "Force" the hp level up. Aside from the fact it was a casual run, my room mate's kiwi had 20 hp at lvl 20 (he forced those HP's down his throat btw). 
but i can agree he dies to magic and doesn't have the overall best defence. If anything a temp character for speed can help out if you find that in the later levels you aren't hitting an experience cap. then it might be worth it to drag kiwi in for a fight or two early for a faster kill. I know that he gets weaker as the game goes on so whatever.

I hope you'll do fine, you seem to be gathering knowledge at quite a rate really. So it I dont doubt what you will/are doing.

mithical87

2008-05-17 08:18:10 pm

Freelance slacker

If I decide to use Kiwi it would have to be all the way from the beginning to end. Bringing him in later on after leaving him behind on levels would just get him killed, same as any character. Kiwi/Gerhalt/Peter/lotsOfOthers especially since their damage is more dependant on levels than a character who can equip weapons. Also, more XP than you'd think comes from dealing damage as opposed to kills. Bringing in a newly acquired character at a matching level (like Higins or Jaro) just to deal some damage and speed things up can take away XP from members who need it.

As for the save'n'quit mid-fight-segmenting to manipulate luck.. I'll definitely have to see what kinds of things I can accomplish with it. It sounds ANNOYING, but I'd use anything to decrease the final time. Minor manipulation of AI along with major manipulation of fights could allow for some crazy strategies. Imagine Peter and some other fliers flying straight into a greater devil and his/her pack of devil bodyguards, dodging all of them, and then double attacking the boss for the kill. That is probably far more than I would be able to manipulate, but one can always dream..

I'd probably still forego Kiwi with stat manipulation because I could just as easily manipulate a character with a higher attack to gain their max stat gains. Hrm.. maybe I should look into the max stat gains for each character...

If I decide to use Kiwi it would have to be all the way from the beginning to end. Bringing him in later on after leaving him behind on levels would just get him killed, same as any character. Kiwi/Gerhalt/Peter/lotsOfOthers especially since their damage is more dependant on levels than a character who can equip weapons. Also, more XP than you'd think comes from dealing damage as opposed to kills. Bringing in a newly acquired character at a matching level (like Higins or Jaro) just to deal some damage and speed things up can take away XP from members who need it.

As for the save'n'quit mid-fight-segmenting to manipulate luck.. I'll definitely have to see what kinds of things I can accomplish with it. It sounds ANNOYING, but I'd use anything to decrease the final time. Minor manipulation of AI along with major manipulation of fights could allow for some crazy strategies. Imagine Peter and some other fliers flying straight into a greater devil and his/her pack of devil bodyguards, dodging all of them, and then double attacking the boss for the kill. That is probably far more than I would be able to manipulate, but one can always dream..

I'd probably still forego Kiwi with stat manipulation because I could just as easily manipulate a character with a higher attack to gain their max stat gains. Hrm.. maybe I should look into the max stat gains for each character...

DarkKobold

2008-05-26 05:57:00 pm

RPG TASer

I'm really excited to see this run. I'm finding the TAS to be extremely difficult, and trying on my patience. It'd be nice to see what can be done with this game. I highly doubt that the TAS would be that much faster than a typical speedrun, due to the difficulties of manipulation.

It may not be worth your time to try and manipulate battles too much. This game is notoriously difficult to manipulate. Additionally, the battle orders don't vary nearly as much as they did for SF1.

The formula for placement in SF2 is -rnd*Ag/8 + rnd*Ag/8 + (rnd*4)-2 + Ag

(Ag is agility, and rnd is a random # between 0 and 1)

Thus, if one character has 12 agility, and the other has 7, the range of scores for first is 12 is 15 to 10, and the last is is 9 to 5. Therefore, the second character will never go before the first.

Additionally, you are doubly limited, since you don't know where the RNG is, and you would have to wait a long time to get any extreme Order. The RNG only moves for 4 reasons:
1. Villager movement
2. Menu open
3. Text Box Open
4. Battle Initiated/Battle Sounds/Level Up

For Manipulating attacks, the only thing you can control is #2 & #3. To get through ever option of the game, it takes 18 minutes!!!

I'm really excited to see this run. I'm finding the TAS to be extremely difficult, and trying on my patience. It'd be nice to see what can be done with this game. I highly doubt that the TAS would be that much faster than a typical speedrun, due to the difficulties of manipulation.

It may not be worth your time to try and manipulate battles too much.  This game is notoriously difficult to manipulate. Additionally, the battle orders don't vary nearly as much as they did for SF1.

The formula for placement in SF2 is -rnd*Ag/8 + rnd*Ag/8 + (rnd*4)-2 + Ag

(Ag is agility, and rnd is a random # between 0 and 1)

Thus, if one character has 12 agility, and the other has 7, the range of scores for first is 12 is 15 to 10, and the last is is 9 to 5. Therefore, the second character will never go before the first.

Additionally, you are doubly limited, since you don't know where the RNG is, and you would have to wait a long time to get any extreme Order. The RNG only moves for 4 reasons: 
1. Villager movement
2. Menu open
3. Text Box Open
4. Battle Initiated/Battle Sounds/Level Up

For Manipulating attacks, the only thing you can control is #2 & #3.  To get through ever option of the game, it takes 18 minutes!!!

MattSF2

2008-05-28 11:50:32 am

I have been playing SF2 since it came out every summer after school was let out...granted i dont have as much experience or expertise as some of you do ^^/. I do feel that my character choices are optimal...and probably a wise decision for a speed run...

Gerhalt- Promote ASAP has really bad growth rates before promotion but afterwards he turns into a attack machine.

Bowie- Obvious reasons ^^

Peter- Who doesnt have this beast of a bird in their final party? Flying? Great Attack? Somewhat fire resistance? Yes please!

Karna (or Sara)- I choose Karna over Sara only because of her rapid exp gain due to boost. Fast to lvl her up while Sara (if not done extremely right) can be slow to lvl.

May- Never leave home without her...Great ranged attacker and you get her pretty early to help build her up some!

Kazin (or Tyrin)- Both of these guys are awesome spell casters. Kazin has that nice blaze 4 and gets it relatively early. BUT you may want to try Tyrin due to the fact he has sleep...which could incapacitate bad guys for a lil while...dont know if they would be more beneficial asleep or sometimes OHKO.

Jaha- My boi...amazing attacker....even more amazing defense...by the end of the my games he is usually close to peter and bowie dmg wise.

Thats my 7 that usually end up doing all the work...I guess speed running with an optimal 5-8 man team would be best...good ole caravan can take care of those pesky free loaders as well 8-)!

Also some more info ( just my opinions of course ^^) You may want to look into working on taya or even converting Kazin to a sorc...granted that will take some more time i think Neptune 2 is worth it...does great damage on Zeon at the end...and killing him quicker is always nice ^^

Just my two cents...I REALLY hope this speedrun happens...i LOVE SF2! It was the first thing i looked for on this website.

Also i cant get that .gmv to show...something i need to download to view it? i tried viewing it via my emulator and VLC player...THX for the info!

I have been playing SF2 since it came out every summer after school was let out...granted i dont have as much experience or expertise as some of you do ^^/. I do feel that my character choices are optimal...and probably a wise decision for a speed run...

Gerhalt- Promote ASAP has really bad growth rates before promotion but afterwards he turns into a attack machine.

Bowie- Obvious reasons ^^

Peter- Who doesnt have this beast of a bird in their final party? Flying? Great Attack? Somewhat fire resistance? Yes please!

Karna (or Sara)- I choose Karna over Sara only because of her rapid exp gain due to boost. Fast to lvl her up while Sara (if not done extremely right) can be slow to lvl.

May- Never leave home without her...Great ranged attacker and you get her pretty early to help build her up some!

Kazin (or Tyrin)- Both of these guys are awesome spell casters. Kazin has that nice blaze 4 and gets it relatively early. BUT you may want to try Tyrin due to the fact he has sleep...which could incapacitate bad guys for a lil while...dont know if they would be more beneficial asleep or sometimes OHKO.

Jaha- My boi...amazing attacker....even more amazing defense...by the end of the my games he is usually close to peter and bowie dmg wise.

Thats my 7 that usually end up doing all the work...I guess speed running with an optimal 5-8 man team would be best...good ole caravan can take care of those pesky free loaders as well  8-)!

Also some more info ( just my opinions of course ^^) You may want to look into working on taya or even converting Kazin to a  sorc...granted that will take some more time i think Neptune 2 is worth it...does great damage on Zeon at the end...and killing him quicker is always nice ^^

Just my two cents...I REALLY hope this speedrun happens...i LOVE SF2! It was the first thing i looked for on this website.

Also i cant get that .gmv to show...something i need to download to view it? i tried viewing it via my emulator and VLC player...THX for the info!

mithical87

2008-06-06 07:24:55 pm

Freelance slacker

Yeah I'm still not 100% on Sarah. It probably won't end up making much of a difference since I ended up using her to heal almost every turn and using the others to kick something in the face. With enough luck I can get away with using the Protect Ring for boost, so a bigger reason for taking Karna is Aura. Often I end up with a handful of characters who have taken 1 (big) hit and I'm either forced to waste a turn on an item or two, wasting multiple turns to slow down (really not an option), or healing some while the others just rack up damage and die. Being able to heal so many people for 18 health will probably end up being the difference of life or death for 1 or 2 characters every battle.

Picking up the secret book is not very far out of the way since I'm already heading to the elven village for the vigor ball (and a save or two, probably). Summons do amazing single target damage, which is absolutely juicy when trying to take out a greater devil or stronger, but the trouble is hoping there's nothing adjacent to the target. I can picture that being solved simply by retrying until things line up, so a sorceror is something I'll look into.

Also I don't see any reason to not promote anyone at level 20 because everyone's growths improves, and I doubt I will run into any XP caps towards the end of the game.

As for the .gmv file, you need to download Gens (I have version 9.5b), and then the rom "Shining Force II (U) [!]". Open Gens, run the rom, and then find the movie play option and select the movie file.

My interest has been directed towards emulating a bunch of PS1 games as of late, as I missed out much on as an N64 owner, and also because I know the last 4 battles are going to be hard. I'm fairly confident it's within the realm of possibility to finish the game, making it a viable way to go about the run. I promise I will start some more work on it.. eventually. Probably soonish. =\

Yeah I'm still not 100% on Sarah. It probably won't end up making much of a difference since I ended up using her to heal almost every turn and using the others to kick something in the face. With enough luck I can get away with using the Protect Ring for boost, so a bigger reason for taking Karna is Aura. Often I end up with a handful of characters who have taken 1 (big) hit and I'm either forced to waste a turn on an item or two, wasting multiple turns to slow down (really not an option), or healing some while the others just rack up damage and die. Being able to heal so many people for 18 health will probably end up being the difference of life or death for 1 or 2 characters every battle.

Picking up the secret book is not very far out of the way since I'm already heading to the elven village for the vigor ball (and a save or two, probably). Summons do amazing single target damage, which is absolutely juicy when trying to take out a greater devil or stronger, but the trouble is hoping there's nothing adjacent to the target. I can picture that being solved simply by retrying until things line up, so a sorceror is something I'll look into.

Also I don't see any reason to not promote anyone at level 20 because everyone's growths improves, and I doubt I will run into any XP caps towards the end of the game.

As for the .gmv file, you need to download Gens (I have version 9.5b), and then the rom "Shining Force II (U) [!]". Open Gens, run the rom, and then find the movie play option and select the movie file.

My interest has been directed towards emulating a bunch of PS1 games as of late, as I missed out much on as an N64 owner, and also because I know the last 4 battles are going to be hard. I'm fairly confident it's within the realm of possibility to finish the game, making it a viable way to go about the run. I promise I will start some more work on it.. eventually. Probably soonish. =\