Shadowrun Returns

Timshel66

Edit history:

Timshel66: 2013-08-03 09:39:06 am

Timshel66: 2013-08-03 09:39:04 am

Timshel66: 2013-08-03 09:39:03 am

2013-08-03 09:36:14 am

So what is Shadowrun Returns:
-Isometric RPG in the same vein as the original Fallout games, takes place in the dystopian Shadowrun universe (which also spawned a SNES game)
-Mostly known for the huge Kickstarter campaign leading up to its release
-Has "contained exploration" during missions sort of like the Deus Ex games. You can explore, but the main storyline is still fairly linear
-Turn based tactics combat system

Why I want to run this:
-There is a good mix of strategic thinking, twitch reactions, AI manipulation, and resource management needed to optimally finish different segments of the game
-Most isometric RPGs have been done to death in terms of speedruns, this seems to be pretty fresh
-There are a lot of glitches and shortcuts that can be used to significantly speed up the run time

I'm only willing to do this run on the hardest difficulty setting, the easier difficulties aren't remotely challenging to play through. There was nothing resembling a speedrun for this game I could find online, so I tried getting through the game as fast as possible with what tricks I know already. It's more of a proof of concept than anything resembling a finished run, but I managed to get through the game in approximately 2 hours 53 minutes. In comparison most review sites I've seen put the length of the game at 10-12 hours. I put the segments in a playlist if you wanted to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMNpeYPzbGMawl0pAHLV2DYbtnm5ocdwl

It's pretty obvious the segments need a lot of polish, but the overall mission path and NPC conversation path is as far as I know as short as you can possibly make it. I decided on using a rifle build because it has a quick attack animation and does obscene damage to enemies with that 5 bullet shot, especially towards endgame when you get access to Haste (letting you attack with it twice per round). The main time-sinks in this run that I wish I could improve on are the decking sections in Telestrian Industries, it's infuriatingly hard to hit the enemies on Very Hard and if anyone has a good strategy to get through them faster I'd love to hear it. And while I felt like my stat build worked, I might have done better playing as an Elf and trading health/dodge for more accurate ranged attacks.

To be honest, the biggest problem I see trying to make a run of this game include the nigh impossibility of verifying that any run of this game was done without cheating. Because of the scenario editor absolutely any aspect of the campaign can be tweaked invisibly, including enemy stats and even the speed at which NPCs move. I suppose that's a risk with all games, and I'm using an unmodified vanilla copy here, but I feel like entertainment value, not bleeding edge timing, is going to be a main factor on whether this run is worth doing.

Other than the points I brought up, I was wondering if I should try to segment this more to get better results from the RNG, or try a single segment run. Both approaches have their advantages I suppose, the SS seeming appealing because it would mean that it's much harder to run through the game with a character with a terrible stat setup by just resetting sections over and over. On the other hand more segments would mean a much quicker run. Any opinions?

Thread title:

So what is Shadowrun Returns:
-Isometric RPG in the same vein as the original Fallout games, takes place in the dystopian Shadowrun universe (which also spawned a SNES game)
-Mostly known for the huge Kickstarter campaign leading up to its release
-Has "contained exploration" during missions sort of like the Deus Ex games. You can explore, but the main storyline is still fairly linear
-Turn based tactics combat system

Why I want to run this: 
-There is a good mix of strategic thinking, twitch reactions, AI manipulation, and resource management needed to optimally finish different segments of the game
-Most isometric RPGs have been done to death in terms of speedruns, this seems to be pretty fresh
-There are a lot of glitches and shortcuts that can be used to significantly speed up the run time

I'm only willing to do this run on the hardest difficulty setting, the easier difficulties aren't remotely challenging to play through. There was nothing resembling a speedrun for this game I could find online, so I tried getting through the game as fast as possible with what tricks I know already. It's more of a proof of concept than anything resembling a finished run, but I managed to get through the game in approximately 2 hours 53 minutes. In comparison most review sites I've seen put the length of the game at 10-12 hours. I put the segments in a playlist if you wanted to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMNpeYPzbGMawl0pAHLV2DYbtnm5ocdwl

It's pretty obvious the segments need a lot of polish, but the overall mission path and NPC conversation path is as far as I know as short as you can possibly make it. I decided on using a rifle build because it has a quick attack animation and does obscene damage to enemies with that 5 bullet shot, especially towards endgame when you get access to Haste (letting you attack with it twice per round). The main time-sinks in this run that I wish I could improve on are the decking sections in Telestrian Industries, it's infuriatingly hard to hit the enemies on Very Hard and if anyone has a good strategy to get through them faster I'd love to hear it. And while I felt like my stat build worked, I might have done better playing as an Elf and trading health/dodge for more accurate ranged attacks.

To be honest, the biggest problem I see trying to make a run of this game include the nigh impossibility of verifying that any run of this game was done without cheating. Because of the scenario editor absolutely any aspect of the campaign can be tweaked invisibly, including enemy stats and even the speed at which NPCs move. I suppose that's a risk with all games, and I'm using an unmodified vanilla copy here, but I feel like entertainment value, not bleeding edge timing, is going to be a main factor on whether this run is worth doing.

Other than the points I brought up, I was wondering if I should try to segment this more to get better results from the RNG, or try a single segment run. Both approaches have their advantages I suppose, the SS seeming appealing because it would mean that it's much harder to run through the game with a character with a terrible stat setup by just resetting sections over and over. On the other hand more segments would mean a much quicker run. Any opinions?

Missy

Edit history:

Missy: 2013-08-03 02:07:07 pm

2013-08-03 10:56:49 am

[grrs internally]

Well, the decking parts can be sped up by either making your own character able to deck (since there's the story quest with Johnny Clean that requires decking), or by hiring other deckers (for Telestrian Industries), but I suggest making your character able to deck. A heavy investment into INT isn't necessary at all, just enough to get your dude/dudette into the Matrix. In a Single Segment run, you're playing Ironman mode, so focusing on a well-balanced player character is crucial to equalizing your chances of survival across the whole game. It's also more fun to see an SS run since you could literally have the stars align in IL's and end a battle as soon as it starts, basically, which isn't all that interesting (even if it IS good for speedrunning haha).

An optimal team for Telestrian Industries would be your major character (specced into damage and haste-buffing, but with just enough points to get into the Matrix), the Decker that's recommended to you, Coyote (hasting her lets her drop Kneecap, for -1AP for enemies on several different enemies, since an enemy with one less move improves your survivability and reduces enemy turn time), and Alexander Falk, the Dwarven Support Mage (he offers so much: haste, armor, aim, and a fire barrier by the time you get to TI). Let's face it, in Shadowrun Returns, your personal character does decking 100x better than any other NPC you could hire, so having that asset in TI is essential. Coyote with Alexander Falk is more than enough to handle the enemies they throw at you during the hacking sequence, specifically because Coyote is the strongest street samurai you could hire and Falk is just way too useful to not have (since you're splitting your party in half). Outfitting Coyote with steroid consumables and grenades gives her the option of increased stats and AOE damage, but Kneecap is more than enough for multiple enemy clear since it also provides the -1AP to the main target. Falk also has a sizable amount of damage since he is a mage, and you can give him medkits and revive kits just in case Coyote takes a spill.

Early on, I suggest dropping points into Charisma so you can get early conversation perks (which can skip fights entirely or speed up some of the levels, like sneaking into the Warehouse where you meet the Shaman chick). Starting as a human seems really beneficial since you get an extra stat point, but I could be wrong. If you get points into Shaman early, you also get the ability to throw out free summons in a LOT of the levels, and since you're considering the hardest difficult having an extra body is really helpful. Conserving money is also important since you'll need the moolah to get Falk in the missions that are pretty tough. I went shotgun/shaman in my own playthrough and it was pretty successful; however, a rifle spec should be much better overall, since aim is usually higher at long distances and a 5-round attack sounds pretty good with Falk around to give you Aim and Haste.

I'm actually pretty interested in routing this game now cause of you x] I believe it's possible to skip a lot of NPC conversation for a majority of the game. Optional quests can obviously be ignored, but the ones that are in the way could be used to give that extra 1000 credits or the last few Karma points needed to level up a stat to a passable level. Argh, there goes what little time I was hoping to use for having a social life!

EDIT: So, I tried out the run myself. I started with a Human (they get +3 Karma points now, instead of just 1 extra) and I went into Quickness 3, Rifle 3, Dodge 2, Charisma 2, Body 4. For a huge portion of the game, maybe even the whole game, you only need Body 4 since your Quickness will be your primary stat, and dodging is better than 10 extra health. I went into early Charisma and took the Security perk for talking; it saves you a couple seconds in the investigation at Sam's apartment (with the police officer) and it lets you skip the breaking in to the warehouse to find Shannon Half-Sky's murdered brother, which is about a thirty second sequence if you pay the "greeter" to distract the guard while you find a ladder to put up.

I just made it past the brotherhood, and I gotta say, the build I was testing is really good at rushing through the game. I ended up at Int 5 / Decking 5 (marked targets + rifle 5-round is great, along with making Matrix runs easy), Quickness 9 / Rifle 6 / Dodging 5 (+1 quickness with bunny armor, +2 quickness with leg implants), and Charisma 3 / Conjuring 3. This lets my PC cast Haste 2, which is all that's needed until you can start hiring other shamans with higher ranks in haste. Honestly, it's nice to have high Haste on a PC, but the Intelligence perks are way too good. In the brotherhood, you can skip fighting the turrets and two other guards when you break in with your team by using the "secret passage" in the kitchen (by using Decking 5) after you let your team in. Not to mention, all you need to do is bribe the janitor for 200 nuyuen, interact with the lard and the ladder for kerosene, then set the stove on fire, which is about a 40~ second sequence. The secret passage places you at the very last room for the Inner Sanctum, saving you from /three/ other fights, so it's well worth it. Not to mention, the way things are looking, this build is pretty optimal considering my character can also hop in the Matrix and help out in those silly decking stages. Even with the highest ranked data-jack, though, my character has >50% chance to hit enemy programs, so I decided to actually give her support abilities and support ESPs - since their hit chance scales off of yours, basically. I chose the Shield and Attack ESP, since the AOE skill on the Attack ESP isn't as inaccurate it can still be useful. My PC has Medic 2, Sniffer 2 (aim), and Shield 2. Matrix runs are pretty easy now, and actual fights are also easy with Mark Target 3 + Full Auto (5-round attack).

I hope you find some things to tweak from my suggestions, cause it's pretty fun running this setup. I will warn you that due to the early investments into cybernetic implants, armor, and concussion grenades (90 a piece, but -2AP to a group of enemies is so good), my moolah is pretty lacking. I've had to sacrifice a fourth runner for some missions, but the grenades and high stats on my PC more than make up for a three-man team. I guess I'm a... shadow speedrunner now
/badumtss

Well, the decking parts can be sped up by either making your own character able to deck (since there's the story quest with Johnny Clean that requires decking), or by hiring other deckers (for Telestrian Industries), but I suggest making your character able to deck.  A heavy investment into INT isn't necessary at all, just enough to get your dude/dudette into the Matrix.  In a Single Segment run, you're playing Ironman mode, so focusing on a well-balanced player character is crucial to equalizing your chances of survival across the whole game.  It's also more fun to see an SS run since you could literally have the stars align in IL's and end a battle as soon as it starts, basically, which isn't all that interesting (even if it IS good for speedrunning haha).

An optimal team for Telestrian Industries would be your major character (specced into damage and haste-buffing, but with just enough points to get into the Matrix), the Decker that's recommended to you, Coyote (hasting her lets her drop Kneecap, for -1AP for enemies on several different enemies, since an enemy with one less move improves your survivability and reduces enemy turn time), and Alexander Falk, the Dwarven Support Mage (he offers so much: haste, armor, aim, and a fire barrier by the time you get to TI). Let's face it, in Shadowrun Returns, your personal character does decking 100x better than any other NPC you could hire, so having that asset in TI is essential.  Coyote with Alexander Falk is more than enough to handle the enemies they throw at you during the hacking sequence, specifically because Coyote is the strongest street samurai you could hire and Falk is just way too useful to not have (since you're splitting your party in half).  Outfitting Coyote with steroid consumables and grenades gives her the option of increased stats and AOE damage, but Kneecap is more than enough for multiple enemy clear since it also provides the -1AP to the main target.  Falk also has a sizable amount of damage since he is a mage, and you can give him medkits and revive kits just in case Coyote takes a spill.

Early on, I suggest dropping points into Charisma so you can get early conversation perks (which can skip fights entirely or speed up some of the levels, like sneaking into the Warehouse where you meet the Shaman chick).  Starting as a human seems really beneficial since you get an extra stat point, but I could be wrong.  If you get points into Shaman early, you also get the ability to throw out free summons in a LOT of the levels, and since you're considering the hardest difficult having an extra body is really helpful.  Conserving money is also important since you'll need the moolah to get Falk in the missions that are pretty tough.  I went shotgun/shaman in my own playthrough and it was pretty successful; however, a rifle spec should be much better overall, since aim is usually higher at long distances and a 5-round attack sounds pretty good with Falk around to give you Aim and Haste.

I'm actually pretty interested in routing this game now cause of you x]  I believe it's possible to skip a lot of NPC conversation for a majority of the game.  Optional quests can obviously be ignored, but the ones that are in the way could be used to give that extra 1000 credits or the last few Karma points needed to level up a stat to a passable level.  Argh, there goes what little time I was hoping to use for having a social life!

EDIT: So, I tried out the run myself.  I started with a Human (they get +3 Karma points now, instead of just 1 extra) and I went into Quickness 3, Rifle 3, Dodge 2, Charisma 2, Body 4.  For a huge portion of the game, maybe even the whole game, you only need Body 4 since your Quickness will be your primary stat, and dodging is better than 10 extra health.  I went into early Charisma and took the Security perk for talking; it saves you a couple seconds in the investigation at Sam's apartment (with the police officer) and it lets you skip the breaking in to the warehouse to find Shannon Half-Sky's murdered brother, which is about a thirty second sequence if you pay the "greeter" to distract the guard while you find a ladder to put up.

I just made it past the brotherhood, and I gotta say, the build I was testing is really good at rushing through the game.  I ended up at Int 5 / Decking 5 (marked targets + rifle 5-round is great, along with making Matrix runs easy), Quickness 9 / Rifle 6 / Dodging 5 (+1 quickness with bunny armor, +2 quickness with leg implants), and Charisma 3 / Conjuring 3.  This lets my PC cast Haste 2, which is all that's needed until you can start hiring other shamans with higher ranks in haste.  Honestly, it's nice to have high Haste on a PC, but the Intelligence perks are way too good.  In the brotherhood, you can skip fighting the turrets and two other guards when you break in with your team by using the "secret passage" in the kitchen (by using Decking 5) after you let your team in.  Not to mention, all you need to do is bribe the janitor for 200 nuyuen, interact with the lard and the ladder for kerosene, then set the stove on fire, which is about a 40~ second sequence.  The secret passage places you at the very last room for the Inner Sanctum, saving you from /three/ other fights, so it's well worth it.  Not to mention, the way things are looking, this build is pretty optimal considering my character can also hop in the Matrix and help out in those silly decking stages.  Even with the highest ranked data-jack, though, my character has >50% chance to hit enemy programs, so I decided to actually give her support abilities and support ESPs - since their hit chance scales off of yours, basically.  I chose the Shield and Attack ESP, since the AOE skill on the Attack ESP isn't as inaccurate it can still be useful.  My PC has Medic 2, Sniffer 2 (aim), and Shield 2.  Matrix runs are pretty easy now, and actual fights are also easy with Mark Target 3 + Full Auto (5-round attack).

I hope you find some things to tweak from my suggestions, cause it's pretty fun running this setup.  I will warn you that due to the early investments into cybernetic implants, armor, and concussion grenades (90 a piece, but -2AP to a group of enemies is so good), my moolah is pretty lacking.  I've had to sacrifice a fourth runner for some missions, but the grenades and high stats on my PC more than make up for a three-man team.  I guess I'm a... shadow [i]speed[/i]runner now 
/badumtss

Vhatever

Edit history:

Vhatever: 2013-08-21 12:17:05 am

Vhatever: 2013-08-21 12:07:12 am

Vhatever: 2013-08-20 10:00:25 pm

2013-08-20 09:52:46 pm

I think you are on the right track with rifle and your general stat build. I think there is some bug to hand the flight recorder to the dwarf guy and get an extra 2k during the mister clean matrix run scenes. Can't figure out how i did it but i know i did it somehow.

General other thoughts: you probably should have bought the ganger outfit and weapon upgrade during that same martix run I was referring to above. The graveyard scene is quite pathetic IMO. I think, perhaps, by the graveyard scene you should have the eagle totem. Once you get 3 ap, the extra turn is often wasted. That or haste. Or both and haste. it's really hard to say. if it wasn't a segmented run, then definitely both and haste -- or bear totem and haste.

I noticed you ditched the AK. I know it's a PITA to switch weapons and all but it might be worth it to switch it out and back in so your main weapon is the upgrade. The AK only does 20% less damage than the FN but allows you to theoretically(with haste up +3 base AP its important to consider) to full auto 2 more times with nearly the same damage output.

Would an elf thus be better with the higher caps and more charisma approach? maybe if you want to push quick over 9, and I can't see why not.

I would buy that jazz drug at the beginning of the game, maybe the kamikaze too, if for no other reason to speed through the graveyard fight more efficiently and ultra aggressively.

Security is probably the best early eittiquet for skipping the hooker at the docks things, also save 100 bucks at the beginnng, though not a big deal I guess.

One point in spirit summoning and you can skip fighting through to the elevator when you rescue coyote. just summon the spirit through the hole in the wall and go up the back way -- a safer way I might add to fighting to save coyote.

As far as the decker portions -- one thing you could do is to hire another decker. Leaving you to defend the place with less people and perhaps a less versatile overall team before the decking portion even starts. Hard to say it will save you time overall. It will definitely make holding that room more challenging.

Talking @ missy. i really don't think I like the decking skills idea. it seems to me that your main character would often be a "wasted turn" in the matrix because his skills will be below par, while it might be safer, it will invariably slower, at least in the terrestrial one. . Whiff, whiff, whiff. I can imagine it already.

Also, from my limited testing I've done on quickness, i haven't noticed a significant difference in quickness making you harder to hit. I think that only dodge does that, though I could be wrong.

3 body would mayebe be doable on a purely segemented run. You are basically asking to be killed by a critical magic attack, though. I think the spit from bugs is also considered magic.

I think you are on the right track with rifle and your general stat build. I think there is some bug to hand the flight recorder to the dwarf guy and get an extra 2k during the mister clean matrix run scenes. Can't figure out how i did it but i know i did it somehow.

General other thoughts: you probably should have bought the ganger outfit and weapon upgrade during that same martix run I was referring to above. The graveyard scene is quite pathetic IMO. I think, perhaps, by the graveyard scene you should have the eagle totem. Once you get 3 ap, the extra turn is often wasted. That or haste. Or both and haste. it's really hard to say. if it wasn't a segmented run, then definitely both and haste -- or bear totem and haste.

I noticed you ditched the AK. I know it's a PITA to switch weapons and all but it might be worth it to switch it out and back in so your main weapon is the upgrade. The AK only does 20% less damage than the FN but allows you to theoretically(with haste up +3 base AP its important to consider) to full auto 2 more times with nearly the same damage output.

Would an elf thus be better with the higher caps and more charisma approach? maybe if you want to push quick over 9, and I can't see why not.

I would buy that jazz drug at the beginning of the game, maybe the kamikaze too, if for no other reason to speed through the graveyard fight more efficiently and ultra aggressively.

Security is probably the best early eittiquet for skipping the hooker at the docks things, also save 100 bucks at the beginnng, though not a big deal I guess.

One point in spirit summoning and you can skip  fighting through to the elevator when you rescue coyote. just summon the spirit through the hole in the wall and go up the back way -- a safer way I might add to fighting to save coyote.

As far as the decker portions -- one thing you could do is to hire another decker. Leaving you to defend the place with less people and perhaps a less versatile overall team before the decking portion even starts. Hard to say it will save you time overall. It will definitely make holding that room more challenging.

Talking @ missy. i really don't think I like the decking skills idea. it seems to me that your main character would often be a  "wasted turn" in the matrix because his skills will be below par, while it might be safer, it will invariably slower, at least in the terrestrial one. . Whiff, whiff, whiff. I can imagine it already.

Also, from my limited testing I've done on quickness, i haven't noticed a significant difference in quickness making you harder to hit. I think that only dodge does that, though I could be wrong.

3 body would mayebe be doable on a purely segemented run. You are basically asking to be killed by a critical magic attack, though. I think the spit from bugs is also considered magic.

Vhatever

Edit history:

Vhatever: 2013-08-21 01:46:01 am

2013-08-21 01:21:36 am

I did some testing since it piqued my curiousity. there does some to possibly be a somewhat minor boost to dodging attacks with quickness. Here are some numbers I got:

First I got an moderately difficult npc with an assault rifle to stand medium range. medium range being defined as within in one movement point at all times. I only counted burst fire rounds as I could not tell if/when he used aimedshots.

Quickness 1/ dodge 0 = 5-10% miss rate
Quickness 4/ dodge 0 = exact same as the above
Quickness 8 /dodge 0 = approximately 15%
Quickness 8/dodge 4 = 50% miss.
Quickness 8/dodge 8 = 85% miss

Vamphri

Edit history:

Vamphri: 2014-01-26 10:53:30 am

2014-01-25 09:10:10 pm

I am looking to have this be my first speed run. After looking over the suggestions above, I wonder how viable a mage/quickness build is. With the mages access to good early AOE spells and extra slots that can be filled with a the haste spells early for clean up after your AOE spells hit. I realize the animation time would be longer however given you should be killing 2-3 enemies in the opening turn, that should make up for the time lost. Hmm... Ill give it a shot and see if I can beat 3hrs (single segment). Update to come
Update: Took 4:36 single segment. I did a few side quests early on to get the extra body. A few level restarts were required just because I wasn't used to very hard. Mostly the deaths were bad positioning and lack of doc kits. I do think that given this build a segmented run could do really well.

Garryl

2014-10-16 01:06:32 pm

In The Morning After/Collecting the Sample, you don't actually need to go to Silverstar's office and get the Aegis sample. You can just head out the elevator in the back that you're supposed to leave through at the end, and McKlusky will be waiting anyways to take you to the next chapter, which continues as normal. Telestrian still asks you about stealing the sample and everything.