Shadow the Hedgehog

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StrangenessDSS: 2005-12-29 12:25:06 pm

2005-11-21 09:31:45 pm

Having played this game a fair bit, I have found that it seems to be perfect, in my opinion, for Speed-Running.

Due to the way in which this game is structured, I feel that individual Mission Speed-Runs would be more appropriate than a full-game Speed-Run (if individual Mission Speed-Runs are allowed). As far as I am aware, the game is identical between all three consoles (the PAL Versions are, in particular), so there should be no problems there.

A lot of the Missions for the Fourth and Fifth Stages (obviously, the chaotic nightmare that is "Stage 4-B: The Doom" is an exception here...!) are good for Speed-Running, as are some of the Missions in other Stages. The Bosses are also good for Speed-Runs.

In particular, I have speed strategies in progress for Stage 4-C: Sky Troops (which is probably my favourite and best Stage so far!) and the battles with the Egg Dealer.

Could anyone offer some further input and/or advice on how to go about this?

Thread title:

The T

2005-11-21 09:50:03 pm

Just so I understand and to clarify it for everyone: You're saying the way it should be run is individual runs for each level, but beside that each level can be completed different ways, called "missions", and there should be 1 run per mission as well?

trihex

2005-11-21 10:00:38 pm

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Man, I wanna speedrun this game! But, I read that it was crap, the graphics look like crap, yet there's this curiosity to see how bad it is, and speedrun it..

*torn between choices*

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-21 10:06:07 pm

2005-11-21 10:05:18 pm

Quote:

Just so I understand and to clarify it for everyone: You're saying the way it should be run is individual runs for each level, but beside that each level can be completed different ways, called "missions", and there should be 1 run per mission as well?

That is exactly what the term "Individual Mission Speed-Runs" refers to.

Hitaro

Edit history:

Hitaro: 2005-11-21 10:24:15 pm

2005-11-21 10:21:15 pm

Well, if you trust IGN (who gave it a 4.9/10) and many other worthy sources, then it might be bad.

I would say that the other Sonic games are MUCH better to speed run, since the camera apparently slows the game a LOT. Maybe Sonic Adventure 2, or one of those good old Sonic games for the Genesis.

Quote:

That is exactly what the term "Individual Mission Speed-Runs" refers to.

Idividual mission runs are usually for games where you can't normally go through the next level directly after beating the previous level. Making it "Idividual mission" speed runs for every game would be a waste. Only full-game run throughs would probably be accepted.

Then again, I don't know how the levels system works in Shadow the Hedgehog, so I could be wrong.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-21 10:51:39 pm

2005-11-21 10:49:58 pm

Quote:

Well, if you trust IGN (who gave it a 4.9/10) and many other worthy sources, then it might be bad.

I would say that the other Sonic games are MUCH better to speed run, since the camera apparently slows the game a LOT. Maybe Sonic Adventure 2, or one of those good old Sonic games for the Genesis.

I don't listen to IGN or any other source of opinions when deciding which games I do and do not enjoy playing. I have not once encountered any problems with the camera systems of this game.

Quote:

Then again, I don't know how the levels system works in Shadow the Hedgehog, so I could be wrong.

Basically, the system is as follows. In each Stage, there are either two or three different possible Missions. Depending on which of these you complete, you move on to a different Stage or Boss Battle when this particular Mission is completed. Therefore, working out a method of making it through the entire game in the absolute fastest time possible could, potentially, be literally impossible, since it would require comparison of every single Mission in every single Stage of the game, along with every single Boss Battle, in terms of time. It would also require taking into account the amount of time which further Stages will take depending on your currently-selected Mission.

[quote]Well, if you trust IGN (who gave it a 4.9/10) and many other worthy sources, then it might be bad.

I would say that the other Sonic games are MUCH better to speed run, since the camera apparently slows the game a LOT. Maybe Sonic Adventure 2, or one of those good old Sonic games for the Genesis.[/quote]

I don't listen to IGN or any other source of opinions when deciding which games I do and do not enjoy playing. I have not once encountered any problems with the camera systems of this game.

[quote]Then again, I don't know how the levels system works in Shadow the Hedgehog, so I could be wrong.[/quote]

Basically, the system is as follows. In each Stage, there are either two or three different possible Missions. Depending on which of these you complete, you move on to a different Stage or Boss Battle when this particular Mission is completed. Therefore, working out a method of making it through the entire game in the absolute fastest time possible could, potentially, be literally impossible, since it would require comparison of every single Mission in every single Stage of the game, along with every single Boss Battle, in terms of time. It would also require taking into account the amount of time which further Stages will take depending on your currently-selected Mission.

Lag.Com

2005-11-21 11:05:12 pm

sda loyalist

That's a good thing, it's called route planning.

Comparable Quake decision: To take the rocket launcher on e4m6 or not? If you do, e4m7 becomes a bunch quicker, but it does lose you some time on e4m6, as it's a tiny bit out of the way.

Full game runthrough please.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-21 11:15:56 pm

2005-11-21 11:15:38 pm

The system in this game is completely different to that of the likes of Quake. It cannot be "Route-Planned" as such. Your actions in the game determine exactly which Stage, Mission and Route you move to next, and can be modified at any time during the game.

This is a basic map of the game (not including Boss Stages), with five different Routes planned out.

In total, there are 326 Routes through the game. Add to that the time taken by comparing the Stage times and still having to practice every single Mission to perfection, and you have literally months, if not years, of work on your hands.

Hitaro

Edit history:

Hitaro: 2005-11-21 11:25:57 pm

2005-11-21 11:20:08 pm

Quote:

I don't listen to IGN or any other source of opinions when deciding which games I do and do not enjoy playing. I have not once encountered any problems with the camera systems of this game.

I said if you trust IGN or whatever, then it might be a bad game, not a game you can't enjoy. Apparently, there's a union at Gamespot about Big Rigs likers.
And I would like to try Big Rigs out, for that matter, 'cause it would be so fun laughin at it's crappiness ;p.

Quote:

Basically, the system is as follows. In each Stage, there are either two or three different possible Missions. Depending on which of these you complete, you move on to a different Stage or Boss Battle when this particular Mission is completed. Therefore, working out a method of making it through the entire game in the absolute fastest time possible could, potentially, be literally impossible, since it would require comparison of every single Mission in every single Stage of the game, along with every single Boss Battle, in terms of time. It would also require taking into account the amount of time which further Stages will take depending on your currently-selected Mission.

In those conditions, what we do is "plan a route", as Lag.com said, you lazy-ass ;p (not ment to be offensive).

Quote:

The system in this game is completely different to that of the likes of Quake. It cannot be "Route-Planned" as such. Your actions in the game determine exactly which Stage, Mission and Route you move to next, and can be modified at any time during the game.

This is a basic map of the game (not including Boss Stages), with five different Routes planned out.

In total, there are 326 Routes through the game. Add to that the time taken by comparing the Stage times and still having to practice every single Mission to perfection, and you have literally months, if not years, of work on your hands.

In other words, this would be something like Super Mario 64, but with a straight line and only 22 levels.

Here's an idea; find out what would be the fastest time for each level, and find out wich possible combination of levels would be the most efficient and the less time consuming.

And not only do the levels not need to be timed (or played) to perfection (you only need an estimate), but any decent speed runner would still practice like hell for months.

[quote]

I don't listen to IGN or any other source of opinions when deciding which games I do and do not enjoy playing. I have not once encountered any problems with the camera systems of this game.[/quote]

I said if you trust IGN or whatever, then it might be a [I]bad[/I] game, not a game you can't enjoy. Apparently, there's a union at Gamespot about Big Rigs likers.
And I would like to try Big Rigs out, for that matter, 'cause it would be so fun laughin at it's crappiness ;p.

[quote]Basically, the system is as follows. In each Stage, there are either two or three different possible Missions. Depending on which of these you complete, you move on to a different Stage or Boss Battle when this particular Mission is completed. Therefore, working out a method of making it through the entire game in the absolute fastest time possible could, potentially, be literally impossible, since it would require comparison of every single Mission in every single Stage of the game, along with every single Boss Battle, in terms of time. It would also require taking into account the amount of time which further Stages will take depending on your currently-selected Mission.[/quote]
In those conditions, what we do is "plan a route", as Lag.com said, you lazy-ass ;p (not ment to be offensive).

[quote]The system in this game is [u]completely different[/u] to that of the likes of [i]Quake[/i]. It cannot be "Route-Planned" as such. Your actions in the game determine exactly which Stage, Mission and Route you move to next, and can be modified at any time during the game.

This is a basic map of the game (not including Boss Stages), with five different Routes planned out.

[img]http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/553/mapshadow8sl.png[/img]

In total, there are 326 Routes through the game. Add to that the time taken by comparing the Stage times and still having to practice every single Mission to perfection, and you have literally months, if not years, of work on your hands.[/quote]
In other words, this would be something like Super Mario 64, but with a straight line and only 22 levels.

Here's an idea; find out what would be the fastest time for each level, and find out wich possible combination of levels would be the most efficient and the less time consuming.

And not only do the levels [I]not[/I] need to be timed (or played) to perfection (you only need an estimate), but any decent speed runner would still practice like hell for months.

Lag.Com

2005-11-21 11:26:16 pm

sda loyalist

I understood how the level progression went the first time you explained it. If you decide to think of a 'level' as a 'route', then the simile is comparable.

This game has not been out for very long, so you haven't played every route. I think it's quite possible that every route in the game has already played by someone; probably more than 326 people bought it.
Lack of effort and exploration does not necessarily make the quality of the speedrun lower, but it does make it easier to beat.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-21 11:33:31 pm

2005-11-21 11:31:03 pm

You apparently do not see my point here.

As I have previously stated, there are 326 "Routes" through the game. You can only play through six Non-Boss Stages in any "Route" which you take through the game, and you can only carry out one Mission per Stage. That is 326 combinations of 6 Missions. In total, this is 1956 Missions which would have to be played through at least once in order to accurately calculate the quickest Route through the game. Even making ONE difference in a Stage can completely alter the "Route" through the game. The Stages in this game are generally MUCH longer than in the Sonic Adventure games.

Calculating the quickest "Route" through this game would require me to take every single combination of consecutive Missions, and add together their total times for all six Missions involved in the particular "Route", plus the times taken for the Boss Battles on those particular "Routes".

VorpalEdge

2005-11-22 12:24:40 am

welcome to the machine

First, go through and find the dependencies. Which set of missions leads to which boss battles. Then take your red pen and cross out anything that's horribly long. Then play the stage a few times, try to see which missions flow well together, and which are on opposite sides of the level. Cross the latter off.

If each stage has no effect on anything except what the next boss battle will be, your job is easy.

mike89

2005-11-22 12:43:00 am

SEGA Junkie

This sounds like a job for...

The Sonic Center!

...Except we currently have no rankings for Shadow as the game came out a few days ago =P

However individual level/mission runs are our forte, if you haven't heard of us already. The rankings should be up this weekend, and hopefully Cybrax will post a few vids at some stage.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2005-11-22 07:08:39 pm

2005-11-22 05:38:03 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Hmm... I'm not fully understanding the system. Is it like this?

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/7206/mapshadow8sl3ml.png

You're saying that I start at 1.1 and my actions influence whether I go to 2.1, 2.2, or 2.3, and then my actions there will determine whether I go to 3.1, 3.2, or 3.3, etc.? In that case, if I understand what you're saying, that means that there are 1,125 routes and 82 level goals to time. Although there are only 22 levels, you must take into account the goals needed to move to each other level after the level being timed. So, for 1.1, there are actually three things to time. On 5.3, there are 5 things to time. The total number of things to time is 82. Here's what you should do:

1. Run through each individual level goal (all 82) and record all the times. You don't have to be perfect, just make sure that you're pretty fast and using a good route.

2. Write a program to calculate all the approximate route times (or calculate them by hand if that's your thing <_<).

3. Look at the fastest route times. If two times are close, refine the levels in those runs to see which route is truly faster.

4. Write down the exact route and start speedrunning.

Of course, I didn't factor in bosses, but you get the general idea.

EDIT: Look at my post on the second page, I devised a much faster method.

Hmm... I'm not fully understanding the system. Is it like this?

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/7206/mapshadow8sl3ml.png

You're saying that I start at 1.1 and my actions influence whether I go to 2.1, 2.2, or 2.3, and then my actions there will determine whether I go to 3.1, 3.2, or 3.3, etc.? In that case, [i]if[/i] I understand what you're saying, that means that there are 1,125 routes and 82 level goals to time. Although there are only 22 levels, you must take into account the goals needed to move to each other level after the level being timed. So, for 1.1, there are actually three things to time. On 5.3, there are 5 things to time. The total number of things to time is 82. Here's what you should do:

1. Run through each individual level goal (all 82) and record all the times. You don't have to be perfect, just make sure that you're pretty fast and using a good route.

2. Write a program to calculate all the approximate route times (or calculate them by hand if that's your thing <_<).

3. Look at the fastest route times. If two times are close, refine the levels in those runs to see which route is truly faster.

4. Write down the exact route and start speedrunning.

Of course, I didn't factor in bosses, but you get the general idea.

EDIT: Look at my post on the second page, I devised a much faster method.

Lag.Com

2005-11-22 10:06:28 am

sda loyalist

i.e. Use your common sense. Smiley

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2005-11-22 07:07:55 pm

2005-11-22 07:04:47 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

That might take a while, considering that certain level goals that are faster than others may lead to a slower level. This could make guessing the fastest route very difficult.

Upon examining the situation, I realized something. You can work backwards from the 6 column to 1. This is MUCH quicker than my previous method, and you don't even need to time every level goal-only 22 of them.

For example, after timing the levels in the 6 column, let's say 6.2 is faster than any other level in the 6 column. Now, you'll need to time the goals in the 5 column that will get you to 6.2. Let's say that 5.3 is the fastest. Now, time the goals that will get you to 5.3 in the 4 column. Repeat until you work your way to the first level and bingo, you have the fastest route through the game. Smiley

Galactic

2005-11-22 07:24:29 pm

Quote:

i.e. Use your common sense. Smiley

In case you haven't noticed, not using the strategy of playing through the game 326 times is doing exactly that.

The big problem is that the "Routes" often do not allow the Player to simply "select" any Stage of the next group. For example, from Stage 5-A, you can only move to Stage 6-A or Stage 6-B.

The ONLY effective solution and method which I have available to me for acheiving this is this one. First, I play through every single Stage, Mission and Boss Battle in the game and record my best times on them all. Second, I combine them into every single one of the 326 possibilities, and add the total times of every Mission, Stage and Boss Battle in each of these potential "Routes" together. By doing this, I can, hopefully, calculate the quickest "Route" out of all 326 of them.

Nikuvilin

2005-11-22 07:27:00 pm

DMC3,ZOE2 and Xenosaga 2.  Am I crazy?

O_O
Good luck man...
That is some SERIOUS planning.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-22 07:35:53 pm

2005-11-22 07:34:38 pm

Compared the the other option which is being suggested of playing through the entire game at least 326 times, that is much easier.

Of course, I COULD just follow my original intention and carry out the much more feasible Individual Missions Speed-Runs, assuming that Radix would allow me to do so.

Psychochild

2005-11-22 07:50:19 pm

Quote:

Compared the the other option which is being suggested of playing through the entire game at least 326 times, that is much easier.

Of course, I COULD just follow my original intention and carry out the much more feasible Individual Missions Speed-Runs, assuming that Radix would allow me to do so.

To do that, you need to submit all the levels in the game to fill out the table, if I recall. Not sure how missions would work though. But you'll end up having to play through a LOT of Shadow in the end anyways.

Dark

2005-11-23 02:54:28 am

I'm only saying it like that, but there could be section for all 10 endings. I'm just giving opinion

The T

2005-11-23 03:51:40 pm

Wouldn't the straight entirely neutral, no mission path be easiest/fastest? That's what I've heard at least.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-23 07:39:15 pm

2005-11-23 07:39:03 pm

Unfortunately, you still have to select either Dark or Hero in Stage 6 on the Normal Route.

I was considering perhaps a purely Dark or purely Hero Run.

Dark

Edit history:

Dark: 2005-11-23 09:32:16 pm

2005-11-23 09:31:45 pm

Quote:

Unfortunately, you still have to select either Dark or Hero in Stage 6 on the Normal Route.

That's why I proposes a section for each endings!

Quote:

I was considering perhaps a purely Dark or purely Hero Run.

Yep, that's a good idea.

Galactic

Edit history:

Galactic: 2005-11-23 10:29:49 pm

2005-11-23 10:28:45 pm

Quote:

That's why I proposes a section for each endings!

That would still require an unfeasible amount of planning for even a few of them.

Unless it is against the Rules in some way to carry out Individual Missions Speed-Runs, then those are exactly what I am going to do.