SGDQ 2014 Feedback Thread

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2014-07-10 11:37:17 am

2014-07-10 11:32:45 am

All the things

Quote from DarkAries:

The benefit is actually large. You are scaling 240p all the way onto a 720p layout. Composite causing dithering, s-video has to be deinterlaced. Also I'm not saying string RGB cords to the set up. This is why I mentioned the XRGB. Also the Marathon TV should be a GOOD crt, and good ones DO support component 240p. I'm surprised somebody hasn't brought out a Sony PVM or a JVC there. Also going up to RGB would actually be LESS of a hassle. Everything uses SCART connectors. Scart SUPPORTS s-video and composite. So does JP21 if I'm not mistaken. You would need ONE cord going to a capture card, if you need to use composite/s-video so be it, the connectors support it This makes life EASIER when the capture card is only set to ONE setting, and the changes happen before it gets there. Also consoles have varying composite quality. Look at Genesis composite. It's god damn terrible. There is a reason there are threads of info on Sega-16 about RGB and s-video mods. Also the RGB cables aren't expensive either and all end up using the same connector.

I think you are vastly overstating the benefits of RGB. Will it look better? A bit. Is it enough that the average viewer will watch and go "wow, this looks amazing! I should donate more because this is impressive?" No. People won't even notice without a side-by-side comparison, and even then the step up from S-Video will not be too visible.

These are the things that would have to change to make a full RGB setup possible:

-RGB TV. These are really uncommon and universally expensive. For what it's worth, the runner doesn't even need perfect quality.
-SCART distribution amp. I don't even know where you can get these in the US. On the flipside, if something goes wrong with our S-Video setup, a quick trip to Radioshack or some other electronics store can fill the gap.
-NES and N64 RGB mods. The latter is tricky, but the former will also at least allow SVideo output.
-Scaler. I mentioned XRGB-Mini before because we already have one for the marathon, but it was used for holding stable output resolutions from mixed-output sources. It was not without issues when we were using it however.
-Appropriate cables and otherwise. Extra costs vs what we already have.
-Swapping in other consoles. There's still a need for this, and RGB doesn't have a great solution. JP 64s will still need one of the original connectors, and we can't guarantee coverage of Master Systems or <insert console here> that do not typically show up at marathons.

That's a lot of changes we'd need to make just to support minor quality boost in something people won't notice the difference in. We are already well set to handle SVideo; the equipment is readily available, and the staff have experience working with it. There will be headway made in improving the viewing experience but I'm not convinced that changing everything we already have at significant cost just to support RGB is a good move.

[quote="DarkAries"]The benefit is actually large. You are scaling 240p all the way onto a 720p layout. Composite causing dithering, s-video has to be deinterlaced. Also I'm not saying string RGB cords to the set up. This is why I mentioned the XRGB. Also the Marathon TV should be a GOOD crt, and good ones DO support component 240p. I'm surprised somebody hasn't brought out a Sony PVM or a JVC there. Also going up to RGB would actually be LESS of a hassle. Everything uses SCART connectors. Scart SUPPORTS s-video and composite. So does JP21 if I'm not mistaken. You would need ONE cord going to a capture card, if you need to use composite/s-video so be it, the connectors support it This makes life EASIER when the capture card is only set to ONE setting, and the changes happen before it gets there. Also consoles have varying composite quality. Look at Genesis composite. It's god damn terrible. There is a reason there are threads of info on Sega-16 about RGB and s-video mods. Also the RGB cables aren't expensive either and all end up using the same connector. 
[/quote]

I think you are vastly overstating the benefits of RGB. Will it look better? A bit. Is it enough that the average viewer will watch and go "wow, this looks amazing! I should donate more because this is impressive?" No. People won't even notice without a side-by-side comparison, and even then the step up from S-Video will not be too visible.

These are the things that would have to change to make a full RGB setup possible:

-RGB TV. These are really uncommon and universally expensive. For what it's worth, the runner doesn't even need perfect quality.
-SCART distribution amp. I don't even know where you can get these in the US. On the flipside, if something goes wrong with our S-Video setup, a quick trip to Radioshack or some other electronics store can fill the gap.
-NES and N64 RGB mods. The latter is tricky, but the former will also at least allow SVideo output.
-Scaler. I mentioned XRGB-Mini before because we already have one for the marathon, but it was used for holding stable output resolutions from mixed-output sources. It was not without issues when we were using it however.
-Appropriate cables and otherwise. Extra costs vs what we already have.
-Swapping in other consoles. There's still a need for this, and RGB doesn't have a great solution. JP 64s will still need one of the original connectors, and we can't guarantee coverage of Master Systems or <insert console here> that do not typically show up at marathons.

That's a lot of changes we'd need to make just to support minor quality boost in something people won't notice the difference in. We are already well set to handle SVideo; the equipment is readily available, and the staff have experience working with it. There will be headway made in improving the viewing experience but I'm not convinced that changing everything we already have at significant cost just to support RGB is a good move.

Countdown42

Edit history:

Countdown42: 2014-07-10 11:57:33 am

2014-07-10 11:53:41 am

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet or not since I didn't see anything specifically about it in Rom's post or most of the other posts concerning layouts:

Wsplit is an ugly timer, especially at the default puke green, and even moreso against a bright blue background

And as for timer issues the hotkeys are 100% up to you all and shouldn't be a reason for discrepancies. Maybe add that to your big tech staff info sheet or whatever tool you guys come up with to make things a little more consistent.

Ace3DF

2014-07-10 12:23:52 pm

Do a underground stream a day or so before, show it to only some people and they can give some opinions. Actually have a layout saved and not just slap something up for a 4-way race (I'm amazed you didn't have.) To be honest, more common sense. How no one thought to fix the text overlap in the first run is beyond me.

Efreeti

Edit history:

Efreeti: 2014-07-10 12:31:44 pm

Efreeti: 2014-07-10 12:29:46 pm

2014-07-10 12:26:52 pm

Clear as a crisp spring morning!

Quote from Loerwyn:

Twitch Chat is just no. No no no. I was in there before the event started and I just knew pretty much instantly it would not be a pleasant thing to experience. Either more mods or close it, and let chat happen elsewhere (maybe a moderated IRC).

We have that, it's #sdamarathon on Quakenet. 300-800 chatters for this marathon and we kept a tight lid on the sort of BS that happens in twitch chat.

Quote from ZFG:

-Runner promotion: For the most part, the only promotion of of the runners is the stream link on the stream. Most runners only get ~200-300 new followers on their channel which seems incredibly low for being watched by 50,000+ people, especially since it seems like others that were promoted better got significantly more followers. I suggest linking the runners stream on the schedule with their name, and possibly posting the stream link in the chat by mods

For what it's worth, we did that in the IRC channel.

Quote from mike89:

Create a volunteer role specifically for being a point of contact
When we're moderating chat, we get really frustrated when blind Freddy can see an issue with the stream and we can't get in contact with anyone for half an hour or more to improve it. (Disclaimer: this happens proportionally more often to me, since the easiest time for me to watch is during stream late-night hours.) Having a designated point-of-contact volunteer addresses this problem, and not tying it in with an existing admin role ensures that all the other work that needs to be done to keep the marathon running isn't left behind as a result. Even if you can't find someone right away, if it's not urgent you can just leave a TXT file open for the next person onto that post. For example, at AGDQ I received three separate requests on Twitter to do interviews with the staff and runners, and I'm not entirely sure they got followed up on simply because it was a few days later before we could get those messages to the right people.

I absolutely agree. It would help in spades. I know the IRC chat is relatively small compared to the viewer count (I'm not sure we broke 1000 chatters this marathon), but it's a way more solid venue for constructive criticism from viewers, as it's possible to hold a conversation there. Also, this marathon we had several game developers, like Jean-Paul LeBreton of Double Fine (Lead Level Designer on Bioshock 2), and Dean "noogy" Dodrill (the main man behind Dust: An Elysian Tail), and it would be great if we could have someone pass on what they say to the guys on-site.

Quote from mike89:

The Quakenet team needs to be looked at
Let's be honest, in the Quakenet chat we've got a pretty cushy job. I really only have two non-negotiables when I moderate: spambots, and anyone who wants to insult any of the runners/attendees. There's no place for that.

That being said, we have no business simply removing (or threatening to remove) discussion we're uncomfortable with, eg. stream layout, audio issues, etc. I apologise if this happened to anyone who shows up in this thread. If you block that kind of discussion, you're just contributing to the idea that we're not willing to hear criticism (which this thread should avert in spades!), and you shouldn't be representing this community. I'll be talking more specifically to ShadowWraith about my concerns later.

I also agree. As a fellow IRC mod, the only time I put a lid on that behaviour is if it gets spammy (like twitch "picnic" spam), or abusive. I tried reassuring the chatters as much as I could that they knew of any issues and were sorting them out, but sometimes that was a lie. I didn't know, because I hadn't been able to get in contact with anyone on-site.

Quote from kariohki:

These are just thoughts from a viewer and off-site helper, who also happens to have a very bad memory. Vague things remembered. I remember feeling at one time that there was inconsistency in IRC chat modding when it came to certain hot button topics. There also didn't seem to be much going on in the mod IRC, either it wasn't being checked or it wasn't known about, but at times there was seemingly no contact between chat and mods or mods and on-site people. Someone said about a volunteer liaison type role? That would work well.

mike89 said things about mods being on the same level when it comes to discussions about things, and I agree with that too.

Personally, I tried consulting with my fellow mods whenever I noticed a discrepancy in how we reacted to certain things in the IRC channel. I asked several times "should we allow (X)?" or something of the sort. We could definitely try to update moderator guidelines for next marathon, but mainly I think that's up to admins rather than us volunteers.

Quote from CBenni:

To the other mods, thank you all, you did a great job. Sorry for the hiccups here and there, next time tell me more than 15 minutes early that you need an IRC chat bot... Additionally, well do more briefing next time, I was completely exhausted by teh time the event started.

Nuthin' but luv. <3 I was actually in the middle of setting up my own commands for info and sponsor links when you brought your wonderful bot online. It was a great tool to have.

I did however push myself to the limit this marathon, spending over 85% of my waking hours the 5+ days (50% during bonus streams) I was available moderating the IRC channel (and, for the first time, chipping in on the twitch chat as well). Being the only mod on and just being so tired you have to get to sleep within 30 minutes and having no idea if anyone will appear was the WORST THING. I felt horrible for leaving even though it was due to a desperately required bodily function. Extra experienced help to moderate IRC for next AGDQ would be neat.

Also, one last thing, re:ending the bonus stream at least a day early... that wasn't really relayed to chat mods either. I had to field a lot of questions if it was coming back up, had no idea until over 12 hours later.

Sorry about the huge post.

[quote="Loerwyn"]Twitch Chat is just no. No no no. I was in there before the event started and I just knew pretty much instantly it would not be a pleasant thing to experience. Either more mods or close it, and let chat happen elsewhere (maybe a moderated IRC). [/quote]
We have that, it's #sdamarathon on Quakenet. 300-800 chatters for this marathon and we kept a tight lid on the sort of BS that happens in twitch chat.

[quote="ZFG"]-Runner promotion: For the most part, the only promotion of of the runners is the stream link on the stream.  Most runners only get ~200-300 new followers on their channel which seems incredibly low for being watched by 50,000+ people, especially since it seems like others that were promoted better got significantly more followers.  I suggest linking the runners stream on the schedule with their name, and possibly posting the stream link in the chat by mods[/quote]
For what it's worth, we did that in the IRC channel.

[quote="mike89"][b]Create a volunteer role specifically for being a point of contact[/b]
When we're moderating chat, we get really frustrated when blind Freddy can see an issue with the stream and we can't get in contact with anyone for half an hour or more to improve it. (Disclaimer: this happens proportionally more often to me, since the easiest time for me to watch is during stream late-night hours.) Having a designated point-of-contact volunteer addresses this problem, and not tying it in with an existing admin role ensures that all the other work that needs to be done to keep the marathon running isn't left behind as a result. Even if you can't find someone right away, if it's not urgent you can just leave a TXT file open for the next person onto that post. For example, at AGDQ I received three separate requests on Twitter to do interviews with the staff and runners, and I'm not entirely sure they got followed up on simply because it was a few days later before we could get those messages to the right people.[/quote]
I absolutely agree. It would help in spades. I know the IRC chat is relatively small compared to the viewer count (I'm not sure we broke 1000 chatters this marathon), but it's a way more solid venue for constructive criticism from viewers, as it's possible to hold a conversation there. Also, this marathon we had several game developers, like [b]Jean-Paul LeBreton[/b] of Double Fine (Lead Level Designer on Bioshock 2), and [b]Dean "noogy" Dodrill[/b] (the main man behind Dust: An Elysian Tail), and it would be great if we could have someone pass on what they say to the guys on-site.

[quote="mike89"][b]The Quakenet team needs to be looked at[/b]
Let's be honest, in the Quakenet chat we've got a pretty cushy job. I really only have two non-negotiables when I moderate: spambots, and anyone who wants to insult any of the runners/attendees. There's no place for that.

That being said, we have no business simply removing (or threatening to remove) discussion we're uncomfortable with, eg. stream layout, audio issues, etc. I apologise if this happened to anyone who shows up in this thread. If you block that kind of discussion, you're just contributing to the idea that we're not willing to hear criticism (which this thread should avert in spades!), and you shouldn't be representing this community. I'll be talking more specifically to ShadowWraith about my concerns later.[/quote]
I also agree. As a fellow IRC mod, the only time I put a lid on that behaviour is if it gets spammy (like twitch "picnic" spam), or abusive. I tried reassuring the chatters as much as I could that they knew of any issues and were sorting them out, but sometimes that was a lie. I didn't know, because I hadn't been able to get in contact with anyone on-site.

[quote="kariohki"]These are just thoughts from a viewer and off-site helper, who also happens to have a very bad memory. Vague things remembered. I remember feeling at one time that there was inconsistency in IRC chat modding when it came to certain hot button topics. There also didn't seem to be much going on in the mod IRC, either it wasn't being checked or it wasn't known about, but at times there was seemingly no contact between chat and mods or mods and on-site people. Someone said about a volunteer liaison type role? That would work well.

mike89 said things about mods being on the same level when it comes to discussions about things, and I agree with that too.[/quote]
Personally, I tried consulting with my fellow mods whenever I noticed a discrepancy in how we reacted to certain things in the IRC channel. I asked several times "should we allow (X)?" or something of the sort. We could definitely try to update moderator guidelines for next marathon, but mainly I think that's up to admins rather than us volunteers.

[quote="CBenni"]To the other mods, thank you all, you did a great job. Sorry for the hiccups here and there, next time tell me more than 15 minutes early that you need an IRC chat bot... Additionally, well do more briefing next time, I was completely exhausted by teh time the event started.[/quote]
Nuthin' but luv. <3 I was actually in the middle of setting up my own commands for info and sponsor links when you brought your wonderful bot online. It was a great tool to have.

I did however push myself to the limit this marathon, spending over 85% of my waking hours the 5+ days (50% during bonus streams) I was available moderating the IRC channel (and, for the first time, chipping in on the twitch chat as well). Being the only mod on and just being so tired you have to get to sleep within 30 minutes and having no idea if anyone will appear was the WORST THING. I felt horrible for leaving even though it was due to a desperately required bodily function. Extra experienced help to moderate IRC for next AGDQ would be neat.

Also, one last thing, re:ending the bonus stream at least a day early... that wasn't really relayed to chat mods either. I had to field a lot of questions if it was coming back up, had no idea until over 12 hours later.

Sorry about the huge post.

GoldfishX

2014-07-10 12:32:31 pm

Viewer here. I really didn't have any issues with the viewing layout or audio and a lot of people I know were regularly watching (I found the donation reader being interrupted somewhat amusing). My lone issue is with the game selection. Specifically (and this is no disrespect to whoever the runner was), Skyward Sword in US East Coast primetime. It's a six hour game that I wasn't really interested in that was put in a timeslot where for a lot of people it is the only time they had a chance to catch the stream for the day. I guess I would have preferred more things like the Sonic and Megaman Blocks, in primetime, where a large number of games were run. In the space of the time Skyward Sword was ran, you could have ran a large volume of games. I don't remember if any other 4+ hour games were ran (outside of FFVI, which I felt was an appropriate finale), but I would just be a little more cautious about giving them primetime slots.

Vegita4Life

2014-07-10 12:32:52 pm

A running total updated in real time (or as close as possible) is an excellent suggestion. Speaking as someone that watches the marathons by stream, the thought of seeing the total updated right after I make my donation gives me a great feeling of satisfaction and direct evidence that my donation actually counts even if any donation comment I might have made didn't get read!

My only other comment will pertain to the language used. As mentioned previously, how you conduct yourself on your stream and IRL when you are solely representing yourself IS NOT the same as when you are in a marathon with your name on screen inches away from a half dozen sponsors to go along with charity involved. If you let out a swear word or two when a trick/glitch fails or something unexpected/RNG related happens, that is certainly understandable. However, littering your run with F bombs and similarly extreme cursing makes you look like a donkey and certainly taints the perception viewers will have of you. Many of those viewers might be seeing you for the first time! No decent person watching you run your game is rooting for you to fail and it can be quite tense even as a casual viewer to see highly intense sections of the run. If something fails, you as the runner will most certainly garner sympathy from the viewers if the trick fails. On the occasion that many things go wrong in a run, blame the RNG or blame yourself but Don't let it get the best of you and devolve into a whiney jerk with a limited vocabulary! Presentation is everything. You never know who is watching or who might see your actions down the road.

A running total updated in real time (or as close as possible) is an excellent suggestion. Speaking as someone that watches the marathons by stream, the thought of seeing the total updated right after I make my donation gives me a great feeling of satisfaction and direct evidence that my donation actually counts even if any donation comment I might have made didn't get read!

My only other comment will pertain to the language used. As mentioned previously, how you conduct yourself on your stream and IRL when you are solely representing yourself IS NOT the same as when you are in a marathon with your name on screen inches away from a half dozen sponsors to go along with charity involved. If you let out a swear word or two when a trick/glitch fails or something unexpected/RNG related happens, that is certainly understandable. However, littering your run with F bombs and similarly extreme cursing makes you look like a donkey and certainly taints the perception viewers will have of you. Many of those viewers might be seeing you for the first time! No decent person watching you run your game is rooting for you to fail and it can be quite tense even as a casual viewer to see highly intense sections of the run. If something fails, you as the runner will most certainly garner sympathy from the viewers if the trick fails. On the occasion that many things go wrong in a run, blame the RNG or blame yourself but Don't let it get the best of you and devolve into a whiney jerk with a limited vocabulary! Presentation is everything. You never know who is watching or who might see your actions down the road.

Genocidal

Edit history:

Genocidal: 2014-07-10 12:36:09 pm

2014-07-10 12:34:29 pm

I wasn't in attendance so any suggestions/feedback may already be done or brought up "behind the scenes" without my knowing (aside: maybe an attendee feedback and non-attendee feedback thread would make sense in the future since their issues are fairly exclusive)

Marathon TVs

CRT TVs are a huge pain for everyone to transport. It's my understanding that the TVs were lacking this year; would it be feasible to get a local storage shed and "invest" in a few Trinitrons or later year sets? It's pretty easy to score quality CRTs for free or extremely cheap (craigslist, freecycle, Goodwill, etc) so the cost would be mostly in safe storage (perhaps you could work a deal with a storage company since it's for charity) -- UA mentioned they had a locker for all the gear being shipped in so off-site storage isn't a huge stretch from that. The biggest downside is that sets could go bad, but ideally there will be a few backups and a couple people that arrive early enough to transport all the TVs to the site. Any dead sets would obviously be replaced between marathons.

IRC

It's been touched on but I'd like to reiterate that rule enforcement and moderation in the official IRC was *extremely* uneven. Depending on which ops were around the same conversation could be either harmless, excitement building fun or worthy of a handful of kicks/bans. I personally ended up idling marathon chat and talked about the event elsewhere on IRC because I knew what to expect. I don't have a copy of the volunteer form but adding IRC and Twitch moderation to the potential signups would be helpful. I know monitoring chat isn't the dream job when you're on-site but if it can be fully staffed that would be a huge help (especially for the chat->site communication issues)

Most of my other feedback has been touched on in a way I don't feel I could add to. Of course, thanks again for rolling with the punches and putting on a great marathon -- hoping I can make it to AGDQ '15 and help out.

Quote from Worn_Traveler:

Is the goal of the marathon to hype the charity through good runs, regardless of time, or to hype the runs and raise money on the side for charity?

It should be about providing the most entertaining event, so more the former. If people are entertained, they'll stick around the stream longer and be more likely to donate.

I wasn't in attendance so any suggestions/feedback may already be done or brought up "behind the scenes" without my knowing (aside: maybe an attendee feedback and non-attendee feedback thread would make sense in the future since their issues are fairly exclusive)

Marathon TVs

CRT TVs are a huge pain for everyone to transport. It's my understanding that the TVs were lacking this year; would it be feasible to get a local storage shed and "invest" in a few Trinitrons or later year sets? It's pretty easy to score quality CRTs for free or extremely cheap (craigslist, freecycle, Goodwill, etc) so the cost would be mostly in safe storage (perhaps you could work a deal with a storage company since it's for charity) -- UA mentioned they had a locker for all the gear being shipped in so off-site storage isn't a huge stretch from that. The biggest downside is that sets could go bad, but ideally there will be a few backups and a couple people that arrive early enough to transport all the TVs to the site. Any dead sets would obviously be replaced between marathons.

IRC

It's been touched on but I'd like to reiterate that rule enforcement and moderation in the official IRC was *extremely* uneven. Depending on which ops were around the same conversation could be either harmless, excitement building fun or worthy of a handful of kicks/bans. I personally ended up idling marathon chat and talked about the event elsewhere on IRC because I knew what to expect. I don't have a copy of the volunteer form but adding IRC and Twitch moderation to the potential signups would be helpful. I know monitoring chat isn't the dream job when you're on-site but if it can be fully staffed that would be a huge help (especially for the chat->site communication issues)

Most of my other feedback has been touched on in a way I don't feel I could add to. Of course, thanks again for rolling with the punches and putting on a great marathon -- hoping I can make it to AGDQ '15 and help out.

[quote="Worn_Traveler"]Is the goal of the marathon to hype the charity through good runs, regardless of time, or to hype the runs and raise money on the side for charity? [/quote]
It should be about providing the most entertaining event, so more the former. If people are entertained, they'll stick around the stream longer and be more likely to donate.

UberGoose

2014-07-10 12:34:52 pm

Quote from GoldfishX:

Viewer here. I really didn't have any issues with the viewing layout or audio and a lot of people I know were regularly watching (I found the donation reader being interrupted somewhat amusing). My lone issue is with the game selection. Specifically (and this is no disrespect to whoever the runner was), Skyward Sword in US East Coast primetime. It's a six hour game that I wasn't really interested in that was put in a timeslot where for a lot of people it is the only time they had a chance to catch the stream for the day. I guess I would have preferred more things like the Sonic and Megaman Blocks, in primetime, where a large number of games were run. In the space of the time Skyward Sword was ran, you could have ran a large volume of games. I don't remember if any other 4+ hour games were ran (outside of FFVI, which I felt was an appropriate finale), but I would just be a little more cautious about giving them primetime slots.

SS was only in primetime due to last minute changes. Basically the schedule had Rayman Legends in that slot, followed by SS (which originally would have been about 12:30AM) but we were so far ahead of schedule and the third runner, fearfulferret, wasn't even going to be at the location before the run was scheduled to start, so last minute change of just swapping the two happened. I doubt it will ever happen again unless a similar situation arises.

[quote="GoldfishX"]Viewer here. I really didn't have any issues with the viewing layout or audio and a lot of people I know were regularly watching (I found the donation reader being interrupted somewhat amusing). My lone issue is with the game selection. Specifically (and this is no disrespect to whoever the runner was), Skyward Sword in US East Coast primetime. It's a six hour game that I wasn't really interested in that was put in a timeslot where for a lot of people it is the only time they had a chance to catch the stream for the day. I guess I would have preferred more things like the Sonic and Megaman Blocks, in primetime, where a large number of games were run. In the space of the time Skyward Sword was ran, you could have ran a large volume of games. I don't remember if any other 4+ hour games were ran (outside of FFVI, which I felt was an appropriate finale), but I would just be a little more cautious about giving them primetime slots. [/quote]

SS was only in primetime due to last minute changes. Basically the schedule had Rayman Legends in that slot, followed by SS (which originally would have been about 12:30AM) but we were so far ahead of schedule and the third runner, fearfulferret, wasn't even going to be at the location before the run was scheduled to start, so last minute change of just swapping the two happened. I doubt it will ever happen again unless a similar situation arises.

TheMG2

2014-07-10 12:45:10 pm

Also to those who constantly talked about Other M in the quakenet chat: Why?!?

Blood Thunder

2014-07-10 12:46:25 pm

I think having 2 estimates can be good, have the one most people give now (worst case scenerio + setup time) that is used for the schedule then just put the 'worst case scenario' time on screen. We don't need pb/wr times being shown, the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

For my run (BioShock 2). my given estimate was 1:40 because going through 2 PC game at agdq I wanted to make sure any tech issues weren't going to impact the schedule but between finding faster strats and getting better at the game since offering up the game, my worst case scenario probably would be 1:25. Considering I actually had my game crash in the 2nd level, I didn't do too bad with a 1:21. 19 minutes under 'estimate' which could be quite confusing for viewers.

I know this was planned for SGDQ but ultimately fell through was too have all the files across the 3 PCs be synced so in theory they would all be identical, and while they were for the most part (super meat boy being the exception), it would make setting up games much easier. I don't think anyone really had trouble setting up their games but considering I used all 3 PCs at one point, installing and fixing the files for each one was tedious. Ultimately it isn't a big deal but I would like to see it happen at AGDQ if at all possible.

I think having 2 estimates can be good, have the one most people give now (worst case scenerio + setup time) that is used for the schedule then just put the 'worst case scenario' time on screen. We don't need pb/wr times being shown, the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

For my run (BioShock 2). my given estimate was 1:40 because going through 2 PC game at agdq I wanted to make sure any tech issues weren't going to impact the schedule but between finding faster strats and getting better at the game since offering up the game, my worst case scenario probably would be 1:25. Considering I actually had my game crash in the 2nd level, I didn't do too bad with a 1:21. 19 minutes under 'estimate' which could be quite confusing for viewers.

I know this was planned for SGDQ but ultimately fell through was too have all the files across the 3 PCs be synced so in theory they would all be identical, and while they were for the most part (super meat boy being the exception), it would make setting up games much easier. I don't think anyone really had trouble setting up their games but considering I used all 3 PCs at one point, installing and fixing the files for each one was tedious. Ultimately it isn't a big deal but I would like to see it happen at AGDQ if at all possible.

BobTGoldfish

2014-07-10 12:46:43 pm

Quote from Efreeti:

Quote from mike89:

The Quakenet team needs to be looked at
Let's be honest, in the Quakenet chat we've got a pretty cushy job. I really only have two non-negotiables when I moderate: spambots, and anyone who wants to insult any of the runners/attendees. There's no place for that.

That being said, we have no business simply removing (or threatening to remove) discussion we're uncomfortable with, eg. stream layout, audio issues, etc. I apologise if this happened to anyone who shows up in this thread. If you block that kind of discussion, you're just contributing to the idea that we're not willing to hear criticism (which this thread should avert in spades!), and you shouldn't be representing this community. I'll be talking more specifically to ShadowWraith about my concerns later.

I also agree. As a fellow IRC mod, the only time I put a lid on that behaviour is if it gets spammy (like twitch "picnic" spam), or abusive. I tried reassuring them as much as I could that they knew of any issues and were sorting them out, but sometimes that was a lie. I didn't know, because I hadn't been able to get in contact with anyone on-site.

The only time I tried to put a lid on conversations were things that were on the verge of the IRC becoming Twitch chat. (YSG spam.. OMG A GRILL shit) because honestly we don't really want the IRC becoming Twitch chat otherwise what's the point? I would often say "guys, the people on site are aware of the issues, please focus on more enjoyable things" kinda stuff, but I wouldn't threaten to shut people down.

Quote from Efreeti:

Nuthin' but luv. <3 I was actually in the middle of setting up my own commands for info and sponsor links when you brought your wonderful bot online. It was a great tool to have.

I did however push myself to the limit this marathon, spending over 85% of my waking hours the 5.5 days I was available moderating the IRC channel (and, for the first time, chipping in on the twitch chat as well). Being the only mod on and just being so tired you have to get to sleep within 30 minutes and having no idea if anyone will appear was the WORST THING. I felt horrible for leaving even though it was due to a desperately required bodily function. Extra experienced help to moderate IRC for next AGDQ would be neat.

Sorry about the huge post.

okay I have to say this was an issue there were several times where I had to leave the chat...and not know if there were another mod around. And there were plenty of people I saw with the "@" that never did a thing in the way of moderation. but again, this is more stuff that needs to be worked out by us, and not really something that the marathon organisers need to know about., they mainly need to know about how hard it was to get someone's attention, and when we did how long it took to actually get something done.

[quote="Efreeti"]

[quote="mike89"][b]The Quakenet team needs to be looked at[/b]
Let's be honest, in the Quakenet chat we've got a pretty cushy job. I really only have two non-negotiables when I moderate: spambots, and anyone who wants to insult any of the runners/attendees. There's no place for that.

That being said, we have no business simply removing (or threatening to remove) discussion we're uncomfortable with, eg. stream layout, audio issues, etc. I apologise if this happened to anyone who shows up in this thread. If you block that kind of discussion, you're just contributing to the idea that we're not willing to hear criticism (which this thread should avert in spades!), and you shouldn't be representing this community. I'll be talking more specifically to ShadowWraith about my concerns later.[/quote]
I also agree. As a fellow IRC mod, the only time I put a lid on that behaviour is if it gets spammy (like twitch "picnic" spam), or abusive. I tried reassuring them as much as I could that they knew of any issues and were sorting them out, but sometimes that was a lie. I didn't know, because I hadn't been able to get in contact with anyone on-site. [/quote]

The only time I tried to put a lid on conversations were things that were on the verge of the IRC becoming Twitch chat. (YSG spam.. OMG A GRILL shit) because honestly we don't really want the IRC becoming Twitch chat otherwise what's the point? I would often say "guys, the people on site are aware of the issues, please focus on more enjoyable things" kinda stuff, but I wouldn't threaten to shut people down.

[quote="Efreeti"]
Nuthin' but luv. <3 I was actually in the middle of setting up my own commands for info and sponsor links when you brought your wonderful bot online. It was a great tool to have.

I did however push myself to the limit this marathon, spending over 85% of my waking hours the 5.5 days I was available moderating the IRC channel (and, for the first time, chipping in on the twitch chat as well). Being the only mod on and just being so tired you have to get to sleep within 30 minutes and having no idea if anyone will appear was the WORST THING. I felt horrible for leaving even though it was due to a desperately required bodily function. Extra experienced help to moderate IRC for next AGDQ would be neat.

Sorry about the huge post.[/quote]

okay I have to say this was an issue there were several times where I had to leave the chat...and not know if there were another mod around. And there were plenty of people I saw with the "@" that never did a thing in the way of moderation. but again, this is more stuff that needs to be worked out by us, and not really something that the marathon organisers need to know about., they mainly need to know about how hard it was to get someone's attention, and when we did how long it took to actually get something done.

Cool Matty

2014-07-10 12:54:09 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Lanayru:

Quote:

If you are learning about broadcast, you should learn that broadcast is not the same as a live environment

They are both being broadcasted live to an audience and use similar equipment, maybe the only differences are you have no switcher instead you're clicking a different layout on OBS/xsplit , you have no director telling you to pan in camera 1 or fade in red audio, it's not on Channel 15 or something.

And yes I do understand you can't be there 24/7 but don't be sacred to teach people how to use a mixer, if my teacher can trust teenagers using his far more expensive equipment, I'm sure you can trust 20 yr olds using yours.

What I meant by broadcast vs. live wasn't OBS or something. It's the actual environment of the production. We're in a loud room with extremely terrible echoing walls. It's not a studio where things are quiet, there's padding on the walls, and you have a limited, mostly fixed setup.

Also it's that there's not much time to teach everyone. People are coming in at all different times, and many of them only work one or two shifts. I give them the basics when I can, but I can't exactly teach them routing or how sends work or anything like that, it's way over their heads for a 5 minute pep talk. If I had time to give people a full on lesson on audio, oh I would in a heartbeat. It's just not realistic sadly.

[quote="Lanayru"]
[quote]If you are learning about broadcast, you should learn that broadcast is not the same as a live environment[/quote]

They are both being broadcasted live to an audience and use similar equipment, maybe the only differences are you have no switcher instead you're clicking a different layout on OBS/xsplit ,  you have no director telling you to pan in camera 1 or fade in red audio, it's not on Channel 15 or something.

And yes I do understand you can't be there 24/7 but don't be sacred to teach people how to use a mixer, if my teacher can trust teenagers using his far more expensive equipment, I'm sure you can trust 20 yr olds using yours.
[/quote]

What I meant by broadcast vs. live wasn't OBS or something. It's the actual environment of the production. We're in a loud room with extremely terrible echoing walls. It's not a studio where things are quiet, there's padding on the walls, and you have a limited, mostly fixed setup.

Also it's that there's not much time to teach everyone. People are coming in at all different times, and many of them only work one or two shifts. I give them the basics when I can, but I can't exactly teach them routing or how sends work or anything like that, it's way over their heads for a 5 minute pep talk. If I had time to give people a full on lesson on audio, oh I would in a heartbeat. It's just not realistic sadly.

Loerwyn

Edit history:

Loerwyn: 2014-07-10 01:06:38 pm

2014-07-10 01:06:00 pm

On the chat topic - I'd just like to express thanks to those who've pointed out the benefits of the IRC chat. I'll certainly think about using it for AGDQ 2015.

But I'm not sure it really addresses the issue of the Twitch chat, because that is the one that is visible to the public. Anyone coming across *DGQ whilst it's streaming will see that, and from what I remember of my (brief) encounters with it was that it was basically too busy and I heard mention more than a few times that it was being pretty horrible. Is it pretty much a lost cause, in terms of providing a positive and productive front?

Cool Matty

Edit history:

Cool Matty: 2014-07-10 01:15:28 pm

2014-07-10 01:13:03 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Hyperresonance:

This was the first GDQ I attended and I had a great time.

I want to thank testrunner and cool matty for their support of the problems that happened during my banjo tooie run. I was very frustrated after my run and made some harsh tweets directed at the tech crew for which I deeply apologize.

I didn't see the tweets so you're forgiven Tongue

That said, you had every reason to be angry, and we were very upset ourselves. Your run was just the pinnacle of the shitstorm that had been building up, and we didn't even have all the equipment necessary to fix it at the time (otherwise we would have taken the stream down even earlier for the BIG FIX). I'm personally extremely sorry about what happened, and I definitely take at least some of the responsibility for that.

Efreeti

2014-07-10 01:14:06 pm

Clear as a crisp spring morning!

Quote from Loerwyn:

On the chat topic - I'd just like to express thanks to those who've pointed out the benefits of the IRC chat. I'll certainly think about using it for AGDQ 2015.

But I'm not sure it really addresses the issue of the Twitch chat, because that is the one that is visible to the public. Anyone coming across *DGQ whilst it's streaming will see that, and from what I remember of my (brief) encounters with it was that it was basically too busy and I heard mention more than a few times that it was being pretty horrible. Is it pretty much a lost cause, in terms of providing a positive and productive front?

My personal comparison is that Twitch chat is like a stadium crowd. The thing you get the most out of it is crowd reactions. Personally I'd love to have the IRC channel somehow the main chat, but as you said, unless we get it onto the twitch sidebar I'm not sure how that's going to happen. Besides, having tens of thousands of people is the exact reason it's hopeless to try to moderate twitch chat to the level IRC chat is moderated, and if the IRC channel had that many people, it would basically be the exact same there. By far the main reason IRC is a comfy place to chat is because there are less people there, pure and simple.

[quote="Loerwyn"]On the chat topic - I'd just like to express thanks to those who've pointed out the benefits of the IRC chat. I'll certainly think about using it for AGDQ 2015.

But I'm not sure it really addresses the issue of the Twitch chat, because that is the one that is visible to the public. Anyone coming across *DGQ whilst it's streaming will see that, and from what I remember of my (brief) encounters with it was that it was basically too busy and I heard mention more than a few times that it was being pretty horrible. Is it pretty much a lost cause, in terms of providing a positive and productive front?[/quote]
My personal comparison is that Twitch chat is like a stadium crowd. The thing you get the most out of it is crowd reactions. Personally I'd love to have the IRC channel somehow the main chat, but as you said, unless we get it onto the twitch sidebar I'm not sure how that's going to happen. Besides, having tens of thousands of people is the exact reason it's hopeless to try to moderate twitch chat to the level IRC chat is moderated, and if the IRC channel had that many people, it would basically be the exact same there. By far the main reason IRC is a comfy place to chat is because there are less people there, pure and simple.

Loerwyn

2014-07-10 01:18:12 pm

Quote from Efreeti:

My personal comparison is that Twitch chat is like a stadium crowd. The thing you get the most out of it is crowd reactions. Personally I'd love to have the IRC channel somehow the main chat, but as you said, unless we get it onto the twitch sidebar I'm not sure how that's going to happen. Besides, having tens of thousands of people is the exact reason it's hopeless to try to moderate twitch chat to the level IRC chat is moderated, and if the IRC channel had that many people, it would basically be the exact same there. By far the main reason IRC is a comfy place to chat is because there are less people there, pure and simple.

That's good, and it's definitely worth thinking about using during AGDQ.

RamblingJosh

2014-07-10 01:22:51 pm

Many words! Handle it!

It's the internet. Twitch chat is Twitch chat, and I doubt that many people coming in to watch the Marathon expect anything different. Chat is an important part of the experience for some, and I honestly spent more time there than in IRC. What kind of "positive and productive" chat are you looking for exactly? Because I promise you that you will literally never find actual discussion with 50k anonymous chatters. Personally I find Twitch chat to actually be a very good gauge of the average reception of what's going on on stream, and it absolutely accentuates the exhilarating moments. As long as things like copy pasta is reasonably under control I think it is demonstrably positive. I personally see no strong negative. I understand that there are people who will find it distasteful and offensive, but there's no reason they have to partake in it. Other avenues are open for those who want them. Who exactly are we trying to impress with a pristine chat experience? Twitch is our audience and I'm pretty confident that there are more people who revel in the chaos than there are who expect good discussion.

UberGoose

2014-07-10 01:26:57 pm

Just to back up what others are saying, twitch chat is kind of like listening to a song on youtube. You can have the live version, crowd reactions and all (twitch chat) but some find it distracting. You can always just hide chat if you don't see the necessity (listen to official release/radio edit).

At the end of the day it's optional, there is literally a button to turn it off on your own end, I see no reason to forcibly remove it for the people who like it.

Reiska

Edit history:

Reiska: 2014-07-10 01:27:47 pm

2014-07-10 01:27:06 pm

Quote from RamblingJosh:

Who exactly are we trying to impress with a pristine chat experience?

Potential corporate sponsors and the charity itself. Condoning things like the mass misogyny that went on whenever a woman was on camera makes the organizers look bad and makes the charity look bad.

For what it's worth, I can't watch the twitch chat because the sheer volume of text going through it eats up so much CPU time on my aging computer that the actual stream becomes a slideshow. Tongue

Loerwyn

2014-07-10 01:29:36 pm

Quote from RamblingJosh:

It's the internet. Twitch chat is Twitch chat, and I doubt that many people coming in to watch the Marathon expect anything different. Chat is an important part of the experience for some, and I honestly spent more time there than in IRC. What kind of "positive and productive" chat are you looking for exactly? Because I promise you that you will literally never find actual discussion with 50k anonymous chatters. Personally I find Twitch chat to actually be a very good gauge of the average reception of what's going on on stream, and it absolutely accentuates the exhilarating moments. As long as things like copy pasta is reasonably under control I think it is demonstrably positive. I personally see no strong negative. I understand that there are people who will find it distasteful and offensive, but there's no reason they have to partake in it. Other avenues are open for those who want them. Who exactly are we trying to impress with a pristine chat experience? Twitch is our audience and I'm pretty confident that there are more people who revel in the chaos than there are who expect good discussion.

I would think many watching Twitch do so only for that one event, although there is the potential that they become regular users as they discover other runners.

I think it's more along the lines of the discussion we've had about runners swearing on stream - it just doesn't look very professional, and it doesn't take much for a few hundred - let alone 50k+ - chat users to turn the discussion into what is essentially an offensive hellhole. I understand the points about gauging reactions, but the same could be said of Twitter (albeit much quieter and without 300 people posting the same emoticon at once). And what Reiska just said is very true. And one could argue the organisers or the mods don't condone such behaviour, but there's very little they seem to be able to do about it. Is a chatroom with that many people in a sensible or practical idea? Information can't be passed out via it.

I couldn't find a way to turn it off, but maybe that's a PEBKAC thing, but would making it opt-in rather than opt-out help stem the tide somewhat?

[quote="RamblingJosh"]It's the internet. Twitch chat is Twitch chat, and I doubt that many people coming in to watch the Marathon expect anything different. Chat is an important part of the experience for some, and I honestly spent more time there than in IRC. What kind of "positive and productive" chat are you looking for exactly? Because I promise you that you will literally never find actual discussion with 50k anonymous chatters. Personally I find Twitch chat to actually be a very good gauge of the average reception of what's going on on stream, and it absolutely accentuates the exhilarating moments. As long as things like copy pasta is reasonably under control I think it is demonstrably positive. I personally see no strong negative. I understand that there are people who will find it distasteful and offensive, but there's no reason they have to partake in it. Other avenues are open for those who want them. Who exactly are we trying to impress with a pristine chat experience? Twitch is our audience and I'm pretty confident that there are more people who revel in the chaos than there are who expect good discussion.[/quote]
I would think many watching Twitch do so only for that one event, although there is the potential that they become regular users as they discover other runners.

I think it's more along the lines of the discussion we've had about runners swearing on stream - it just doesn't look very professional, and it doesn't take much for a few hundred - let alone 50k+ - chat users to turn the discussion into what is essentially an offensive hellhole. I understand the points about gauging reactions, but the same could be said of Twitter (albeit much quieter and without 300 people posting the same emoticon at once). And what Reiska just said is very true. And one could argue the organisers or the mods don't condone such behaviour, but there's very little they seem to be able to do about it. Is a chatroom with that many people in a sensible or practical idea? Information can't be passed out via it.

I couldn't find a way to turn it off, but maybe that's a PEBKAC thing, but would making it opt-in rather than opt-out help stem the tide somewhat?

UberGoose

Edit history:

UberGoose: 2014-07-10 01:32:10 pm

2014-07-10 01:31:16 pm

Quote from Loerwyn:

I couldn't find a way to turn it off, but maybe that's a PEBKAC thing, but would making it opt-in rather than opt-out help stem the tide somewhat?

You click the cog, then hide chat.

AFAIK twitch has absolutely no way to make an opt-in system, they would have to make changes on their front.

UraniumAnchor

2014-07-10 01:33:00 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from Genocidal:

Marathon TVs

CRT TVs are a huge pain for everyone to transport. It's my understanding that the TVs were lacking this year; would it be feasible to get a local storage shed and "invest" in a few Trinitrons or later year sets? It's pretty easy to score quality CRTs for free or extremely cheap (craigslist, freecycle, Goodwill, etc) so the cost would be mostly in safe storage (perhaps you could work a deal with a storage company since it's for charity) -- UA mentioned they had a locker for all the gear being shipped in so off-site storage isn't a huge stretch from that. The biggest downside is that sets could go bad, but ideally there will be a few backups and a couple people that arrive early enough to transport all the TVs to the site. Any dead sets would obviously be replaced between marathons.

Couple things. First off, the locker IS the off-site storage, and it currently has a sizable collection of old CRTs in it, of varying quality, mixed in with all of the marathon equipment that's staying in Denver (which is most of it). Secondly, finding CRTs is getting harder and harder. Goodwill isn't even allowed to sell them in Colorado any more, which is one reason why we had to truck them in from Utah. I checked the local Craigslist on a pretty regular basis and most of the TVs people giving away were asking too much ($50 for a 19"? The fuck?) or were 32" TVs which are a complete bear to store and transport. The few that weren't were mostly already gone by the time I actually contacted the lister.

[quote="Genocidal"]Marathon TVs

CRT TVs are a huge pain for everyone to transport. It's my understanding that the TVs were lacking this year; would it be feasible to get a local storage shed and "invest" in a few Trinitrons or later year sets? It's pretty easy to score quality CRTs for free or extremely cheap (craigslist, freecycle, Goodwill, etc) so the cost would be mostly in safe storage (perhaps you could work a deal with a storage company since it's for charity) -- UA mentioned they had a locker for all the gear being shipped in so off-site storage isn't a huge stretch from that. The biggest downside is that sets could go bad, but ideally there will be a few backups and a couple people that arrive early enough to transport all the TVs to the site. Any dead sets would obviously be replaced between marathons.[/quote]

Couple things. First off, the locker IS the off-site storage, and it currently has a sizable collection of old CRTs in it, of varying quality, mixed in with all of the marathon equipment that's staying in Denver (which is most of it). Secondly, finding CRTs is getting harder and harder. Goodwill isn't even allowed to sell them in Colorado any more, which is one reason why we had to truck them in from Utah. I checked the local Craigslist on a pretty regular basis and most of the TVs people giving away were asking too much ($50 for a 19"? The fuck?) or were 32" TVs which are a complete bear to store and transport. The few that weren't were mostly already gone by the time I actually contacted the lister.

Loerwyn

2014-07-10 01:33:03 pm

Quote from UberGoose:

Quote from Loerwyn:

I couldn't find a way to turn it off, but maybe that's a PEBKAC thing, but would making it opt-in rather than opt-out help stem the tide somewhat?

You click the cog, then hide chat.

AFAIK twitch has absolutely no way to make an opt-in system, they would have to make changes on their front.

I see. Thank you for that clarification.

Reiska

2014-07-10 01:33:54 pm

There isn't a way to completely turn it off through the usual channels (even if it's hidden, as far as I can tell, the data is still being sent). On my computer, I ultimately had to watch the marathon through tinytwitch rather than the actual GDQ site because the GDQ site loaded the Twitch chat by default, and even if I toggled over to the quakenet chat tab, it was still receiving all the data from the twitch chat and gradually eating up the entirety of my PC's RAM and crashing my browser every few hours. After the first day or so I switched over to tinytwitch, hit "toggle large player" which unloads the chat applet, and it was stable for the entire rest of the marathon leaving it playing 24/7.

This isn't really your guys' fault though, to be fair.

BobTGoldfish

Edit history:

BobTGoldfish: 2014-07-10 01:53:39 pm

BobTGoldfish: 2014-07-10 01:41:36 pm

2014-07-10 01:40:32 pm

Quote from Reiska:

Potential corporate sponsors and the charity itself. Condoning things like the mass misogyny that went on whenever a woman was on camera makes the organizers look bad and makes the charity look bad.

you think Valve condones the stupidity that happens in the TI4 streams? (especially when a female is on stream) or Riot condones the shittalk that happens in their chat? No, they don't
just because it is happening in your chat, does not mean you condone it.

also, honestly this is a feedback thread, the feed back was that twitch Chat is cancerous and we should think about doing something about it.
debating it further is somewhat silly as we get into a massive loop of people saying the same things over and over.

Edit: If you wanna hide it? pop out the stream and close the source page.