SGDQ 2014 Feedback Thread

2014-07-10 05:48:43 am

Quote from UberGoose:

The issue with showing a time (WR, PB, whatever) is that if a run is bad, it's that much worse when the viewers know. If a run doesn't go well and the viewer doesn't know the WR they just write it off as "mediocre" rather than "17 MINUTES OFF WR BAD SPEEDRUNNER." Obviously they won't react that way, but there could very easily be similarly terrible reactions if a WR time is known.

But at the same time, if you're watching a run and the runner is saying "Time will be soon" and you've noticed their run is closing in on the WR or PB, then it can bring that extra bit of excitement (or, to use SGDQ language, "Hype"), thus increasing the entertainment value.

I think an average to go alongside the estimate would be useful, unless the runner wishes to use a WR or PB.

LeonPowPow

2014-07-10 05:49:43 am

Ideally the runner's time estimate should serve as a reference point of how to judge whether they're happy with the run, however..

I think there should be a splitting of the estimate shown on stream and the one submitted during event planning that also factors in set up time estimations. The time given for how long it will have the marathon dedicated to it is a very different one than the runner's safe estimate of how long they think it'd take them to beat their game.

This was already brought up prior with the "SDA Dedicated Consoles" allowing to streamline the setup time and estimate process.

e.g: for LADX I felt 1:15:00 would be a good run estimate, however gave 1:20:00 factoring in the customary set up time, but the 1:20:00 estimate is what ended up being on stream, making the time difference between actual run completion time and my estimate time (already inflated a bit to assume for a mediocre run) even more drastic.

CBenni

2014-07-10 05:51:09 am

Quote from Microfin:

-I know the Twitch chat is usually not the friendliest place, but a lot of times they are good on pointing out issues that people who are in the room might not be aware of, but it seemed like no one was fixing the problems.

We were watching chat at all times and noticing these problems, but certain issues arent fixed within seconds and communication has to be improved as well. All in all, it was alot better than at AGDQ. Certain people weren't briefed on that they need to read IRC pings, so there were hours on end where we couldnt contact anyone on-site. Shoutouts to Squishy, Testrunner and others at the event that would function as a backup interface for us to the site.
About chats: This time around, we had 3 chats, IRC, main twitch chat and mobile twitch chat (shoutouts to the latter, most chill chat Smiley

) - we will need some help in each of those I feel, people are getting spread out too much. There were times when there was no IRC Op around, which you cant blame anyone for. Were all humans and need sleep. Occasionally. I'm no one to decide on this, but we might want more people helping out.
Twitch chat was managed by a bot I wrote about 5 hours before the event started, so that was not optimal or anything close to good, but it worked occasionally. We will either use xanbot for everything in the future, now that its fixed and working properly. This is something up for discussion. In general, my filter settings might have been a bit harsh, but its literally impossible to manually kill all the sexism that occurred in chat - resulting in a synonym of BBQ being banphrased for the duration of the event. (Keep in mind: subscribing excludes you from all chat filters Wink

)
Sub only chat will not happen over extended periods of time, we just use it for announcements or to pass off spam waves.

To the other mods, thank you all, you did a great job. Sorry for the hiccups here and there, next time tell me more than 15 minutes early that you need an IRC chat bot... Additionally, well do more briefing next time, I was completely exhausted by teh time the event started.

@ZFG, we posted links in chat. Thing is, at 300-400 messages per second (AVERAGE!), links were gone after a second. Temporary sub mode could be considered for this, not me to decide on that.

@VoltySquirrel, we were doing that (whenever my bot wasnt down). Certain things just cannot be filtered out sadly. We had to ban certain words that usually dont pose a problem in chats, and thats nothing fun to do. Alot of saltiness arose over the 10 minute timeouts including some extremely offensive hatemail (Anti-shoutouts to lykan here, gj on getting 2 of your IPs banned from twitch)

@Loerwyn, more mods doesnt work. I fail to be able to read every line in chat at 300 Messages per minute, alot of other people have problems at 60 onward. Deploying an army of mods doesnt help the cause, it just makes it unmanageable. And we had bots running, at an average of 10 timeouts per minute. Theres always a small step between being too lenient and being too strict on bot settings. I think we found a good mix this time around. We listen on feedback here, but I consider it to have gone well.

[quote="Microfin"]-I know the Twitch chat is usually not the friendliest place, but a lot of times they are good on pointing out issues that people who are in the room might not be aware of, but it seemed like no one was fixing the problems. [/quote]
We were watching chat at all times and noticing these problems, but certain issues arent fixed within seconds and communication has to be improved as well. All in all, it was alot better than at AGDQ. Certain people weren't briefed on that they need to read IRC pings, so there were hours on end where we couldnt contact anyone on-site. Shoutouts to Squishy, Testrunner and others at the event that would function as a backup interface for us to the site.
About chats: This time around, we had 3 chats, IRC, main twitch chat and mobile twitch chat (shoutouts to the latter, most chill chat :) ) - we will need some help in each of those I feel, people are getting spread out too much. There were times when there was no IRC Op around, which you cant blame anyone for. Were all humans and need sleep. Occasionally. I'm no one to decide on this, but we might want more people helping out.
Twitch chat was managed by a bot I wrote about 5 hours before the event started, so that was not optimal or anything close to good, but it worked occasionally. We will either use xanbot for everything in the future, now that its fixed and working properly. This is something up for discussion. In general, my filter settings might have been a bit harsh, but its literally impossible to manually kill all the sexism that occurred in chat - resulting in a synonym of BBQ being banphrased for the duration of the event. (Keep in mind: subscribing excludes you from all chat filters ;) )
Sub only chat will not happen over extended periods of time, we just use it for announcements or to pass off spam waves.

To the other mods, thank you all, you did a great job. Sorry for the hiccups here and there, next time tell me more than 15 minutes early that you need an IRC chat bot... Additionally, well do more briefing next time, I was completely exhausted by teh time the event started.

@ZFG, we posted links in chat. Thing is, at 300-400 messages per second (AVERAGE!), links were gone after a second. Temporary sub mode could be considered for this, not me to decide on that.

@VoltySquirrel, we were doing that (whenever my bot wasnt down). Certain things just cannot be filtered out sadly. We had to ban certain words that usually dont pose a problem in chats, and thats nothing fun to do. Alot of saltiness arose over the 10 minute timeouts including some extremely offensive hatemail (Anti-shoutouts to lykan here, gj on getting 2 of your IPs banned from twitch)

@Loerwyn, more mods doesnt work. I fail to be able to read every line in chat at 300 Messages per minute, alot of other people have problems at 60 onward. Deploying an army of mods doesnt help the cause, it just makes it unmanageable. And we had bots running, at an average of 10 timeouts per minute. Theres always a small step between being too lenient and being too strict on bot settings. I think we found a good mix this time around. We listen on feedback here, but I consider it to have gone well.

UberGoose

2014-07-10 05:51:34 am

Quote from Loerwyn:

Quote from UberGoose:

The issue with showing a time (WR, PB, whatever) is that if a run is bad, it's that much worse when the viewers know. If a run doesn't go well and the viewer doesn't know the WR they just write it off as "mediocre" rather than "17 MINUTES OFF WR BAD SPEEDRUNNER." Obviously they won't react that way, but there could very easily be similarly terrible reactions if a WR time is known.

But at the same time, if you're watching a run and the runner is saying "Time will be soon" and you've noticed their run is closing in on the WR or PB, then it can bring that extra bit of excitement (or, to use SGDQ language, "Hype"), thus increasing the entertainment value.

I think an average to go alongside the estimate would be useful, unless the runner wishes to use a WR or PB.

There is no issue with increasing hype levels at these events with good runs, the issue is softening a blow of a bad run if anything, and having any time at all on stream doesn't help with the latter.

[quote="Loerwyn"][quote="UberGoose"]The issue with showing a time (WR, PB, whatever) is that if a run is bad, it's that much worse when the viewers know. If a run doesn't go well and the viewer doesn't know the WR they just write it off as "mediocre" rather than "17 MINUTES OFF WR BAD SPEEDRUNNER." Obviously they won't react that way, but there could very easily be similarly terrible reactions if a WR time is known.[/quote]
But at the same time, if you're watching a run and the runner is saying "Time will be soon" and you've noticed their run is closing in on the WR or PB, then it can bring that extra bit of excitement (or, to use SGDQ language, "Hype"), thus increasing the entertainment value.

I think an average to go alongside the estimate would be useful, unless the runner wishes to use a WR or PB.[/quote]

There is no issue with increasing hype levels at these events with good runs, the issue is softening a blow of a bad run if anything, and having any time at all on stream doesn't help with the latter.

Lanayru

2014-07-10 05:54:15 am

Techno is life

I'm not going to bother reading through 8 pages too see if people have adressed the audio yet. So I will try to keep this nice and dandy as someone who is currently learning and studying to go broadcasting for AUDIO. You guys were using a Behringer X32 , that mixer costs about $3000 which has about 25 channels, it is a digital mixer which has preset fader's and a touch screen to touch the effects and EQ's, these things are not very easy to use I can agree BUT, you could've saved $1500 and instead gotten an Allen & Heath ZED 420 , it may be analog but that is enough for what you need and it is a far much better brand than Behringer which has been known in the past to overcharge their products, so you guys should've done some research. Using the excuse you had no time is bullshit, I learnt in 2 school days (about 2 and half hours in total) how to use a mixer, if you had no idea what you were doing you should've RESEARCHED or NOT EVEN BOTHER AT ALL if you knew you would not know what to do and boy my ears defintley knew you guys fucked up. Apparntley from what I know you guys had your faders down? That is a big no no. Microphones and computers/console devices are always set up where they are not adding or subtracing any audio, that is meant for lets say you doing a production and you're fading in music onto the talent, this is a much different situation. To mess with the audio thats what your gain and trim levels are, now for the mics, they were ass, not sure what their pickup patterns were but they probably were something like an Omnidirectional pattern which picks up EVERYTHING. A cardoid mic only pics up what is right infront of it so that is what you guys should've gotten, also people didn't know how to speak through the mic, now I wasn't personally there but when I am helping out at my teacher we tell people how to use the mic right before they use it and everything goes smooth. Also one thing that is bothering me if you guys just bought all this expensive equipment because you thought more money= better. I know things don't turn out well the first time BUT I am 16 and yet I know how to use this stuff and you guys are what 25 and is not the first time you hosting a GDQ? You have how many months inbetween? In those months you can spend a week or 2 and plan this out and learn it rather than all last minute. Also do you guys know what a PFL/AFL is? There were times were bad static noise came in through for about a minte, THAT IS WHAT PFL IS FOR, it isolates the audio from the master and only the headphones cue can get it so you can settle it out.

Right so here are my class notes and you guys can learn yourselves, but no really, if you're buying shit like that fucking learn how to use it because that is just embarrassing, I showed this marathon to my teacher who worked in broadcasting and he laughed his ass off pointing out the flaws in the tech and mentioned how his tech crew who are 16' 17 & 18's yr olds and him do a much better job. That is just again really embarassing and if he were there that be even more embarassing.

http://imgur.com/a/bCsXl

go get learning

Am I shitting too much? Maybe but then again how manytimes was it mentioned , if you don't know what you're doing why'd you get it, or you had loads of time to practice or simply hire a professional to teach or do it for you! Hopefully you guys have all learnt the mistakes and that AGDQ will not be audio hell because my ears keep crying when I watch a VOD. Prosze nie zabij mnie Wink

I'm not going to bother reading through 8 pages too see if people have adressed the audio yet. So I will try to keep this nice and dandy as someone who is currently learning and studying to go broadcasting for AUDIO. You guys were using a Behringer X32 , that mixer costs about $3000 which has about 25 channels, it is a digital mixer which has preset fader's and a touch screen to touch the effects and EQ's, these things are not very easy to use I can agree BUT, you could've saved $1500 and instead gotten an Allen & Heath ZED 420 , it may be analog but that is enough for what you need and it is a far much better brand than Behringer which has been known in the past to overcharge their products, so you guys should've done some research. Using the excuse you had no time is bullshit, I learnt in 2 school days (about 2 and half hours in total) how to use a mixer, if you had no idea what you were doing you should've RESEARCHED or NOT EVEN BOTHER AT ALL if you knew you would not know what to do and boy my ears defintley knew you guys fucked up. Apparntley from what I know you guys had your faders down? That is a big no no. Microphones and computers/console devices are always set up where they are not adding or subtracing any audio, that is meant for lets say you doing a production and you're fading in music onto the talent, this is a much different situation. To mess with the audio thats what your gain and trim levels are, now for the mics, they were ass, not sure what their pickup patterns were but they probably were something like an Omnidirectional pattern which picks up EVERYTHING. A cardoid mic only pics up what is right infront of it so that is what you guys should've gotten, also people didn't know how to speak through the mic, now I wasn't personally there but when I am helping out at my teacher we tell people how to use the mic right before they use it and everything goes smooth. Also one thing that is bothering me if you guys just bought all this expensive equipment because you thought more money= better. I know things don't turn out well the first time BUT I am 16 and yet I know how to use this stuff and you guys are what 25 and is not the first time you hosting a GDQ? You have how many months inbetween? In those months you can spend a week or 2 and plan this out and learn it rather than all last minute. Also do you guys know what a PFL/AFL is? There were times were bad static noise came in through for about a minte, THAT IS WHAT PFL IS FOR, it isolates the audio from the master and only the headphones cue can get it so you can settle it out.

Right so here are my class notes and you guys can learn yourselves, but no really, if you're buying shit like that fucking learn how to use it because that is just embarrassing, I showed this marathon to my teacher who worked in broadcasting and he laughed his ass off pointing out the flaws in the tech and mentioned how his tech crew who are 16' 17 & 18's yr olds and him do a much better job. That is just again really embarassing and if he were there that be even more embarassing.

http://imgur.com/a/bCsXl

go get learning

Am I shitting too much? Maybe but then again how manytimes was it mentioned , if you don't know what you're doing why'd you get it, or you had loads of time to practice or simply hire a professional to teach or do it for you! Hopefully you guys have all learnt the mistakes and that AGDQ will not be audio hell because my ears keep crying when I watch a VOD. Prosze nie zabij mnie ;)

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2014-07-10 05:55:15 am

2014-07-10 05:54:52 am

SEGA Junkie

Totally got sniped by Leon here, but I think it's worth reconsidering what the "estimate" on the stream itself means too. Have our buffered estimate for scheduling purposes, certainly, but then have a more meaningful estimate on the stream that actually relates to what a good run would look like.

Two problems with that, of course:
1) GDQs have operated in a certain way for the last three years that you would have to completely re-educate the audience on what the estimate means now. Is that worth it? Long term, it might well be.
2) This also requires runners submitting two sets of estimate information. The trouble is, when do you collect it? Your options are:
a) At the point of submission, when less data on your performance is available
b) At the marathon, when runners and tech crew are already swamped with other things to do
c) At some point in between, when runners are hardest to contact compared with a) or b).

Again, I don't have all the answers but it's a question to consider.

LeonPowPow

2014-07-10 06:11:21 am

I think option c is fairly reasonable, although I'm not an organizer so I can't attest to how available runners are in the month or two (or weeks) before marathon start. I can't think of many of the runners at the event that I don't see in the SRL irc or SDA forums frequently enough to be hard to get ahold of. Runners getting much better at their game from time of submission to marathon is a very real thing that further hruts the run estimate numbers and messes up the scheduling. However, whether finding out a few weeks ahead of time that some one is probably going to do much better on their run than they would have months ago would make planning around it easier is something I have no idea of.

Best example I can think of is zmaster91 with FSA who had shaved about half an hour off of his PB in the time from submission to SGDQ run.

NiL8r

2014-07-10 07:26:16 am

Chipping in on the discussion, I highly doubt having a wr/runner's pb on stream would increase the hype by much at all. Very few runners get times within a minute of pb in a marathon run. Speed runners in general are their own harshest critics so if they say, "that was a good run", then chances are it was pretty damn good.

But I agree with Leon and Mike. Changing the Estimate that's on stream seems like it would be a happy medium. I know for my run I would've had to have the worst run of my life, have 10 minutes of setup, and have my game crash multiple times for me to come close to estimate.

kirbymastah

2014-07-10 07:33:21 am

<(^_^)>

Quote from Reafexus:

WR thing
I understand the not wanting the WR on the screen but every stream I watched the runner ends it with "That was a good time," and all I could think every time was COMPARED TO WHAT!? Were you seconds off? Minutes? Of the WR, your PB, your best friends last marathon time, your last marathon time? Viewers have literally no frame of reference to how well a run is going. We see a round about estimate but they are just estimates of if everything goes wrong. I understand the WR may be distracting but I know I wanted a frame of reference and apparently it is a popular opinion among viewers.

This has been mentioned countless times at basically every feedback thread. The threshold of "good marathon runs" seriously vary from game to game, because of donation incentives, safety and/or marathon strats, and so on. And it varies depending on the runner as well. Having the WR on the stream itself (while it does give a point of reference) gives an unfair comparison and can usually give the deception that the run sucked because of its time and so on. A run that's 10 minutes off in a really long run could be good, while a run that's 10 minutes off (for example, my fusion run at SGDQ2013) has a seriously shitty time but it was a good marathon run since I pulled off a ton of flashy stuff. It's different on every game and, quite frankly, will almost always kill the hype because the time of the run will almost always not be anywhere near the WR. Whether the WR should be mentioned or not should ultimately be up to the runner's discretion; it shouldn't be on every single game.

[quote="Reafexus"]WR thing
I understand the not wanting the WR on the screen but every stream I watched the runner ends it with "That was a good time," and all I could think every time was COMPARED TO WHAT!? Were you seconds off? Minutes? Of the WR, your PB, your best friends last marathon time, your last marathon time? Viewers have literally no frame of reference to how well a run is going. We see a round about estimate but they are just estimates of if everything goes wrong. I understand the WR may be distracting but I know I wanted a frame of reference and apparently it is a popular opinion among viewers. [/quote]

This has been mentioned countless times at basically every feedback thread. The threshold of "good marathon runs" seriously vary from game to game, because of donation incentives, safety and/or marathon strats, and so on. And it varies depending on the runner as well. Having the WR on the stream itself (while it does give a point of reference) gives an unfair comparison and can usually give the deception that the run sucked because of its time and so on. A run that's 10 minutes off in a really long run could be good, while a run that's 10 minutes off (for example, my fusion run at SGDQ2013) has a seriously shitty time but it was a good marathon run since I pulled off a ton of flashy stuff.  It's different on every game and, quite frankly, will almost always kill the hype because the time of the run will almost always not be anywhere near the WR. [i][b]Whether the WR should be mentioned or not should ultimately be up to the runner's discretion; it shouldn't be on every single game.[/b][/i]

Cool Matty

2014-07-10 07:34:06 am

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Lanayru:

I'm not going to bother reading through 8 pages too see if people have adressed the audio yet. So I will try to keep this nice and dandy as someone who is currently learning and studying to go broadcasting for AUDIO. You guys were using a Behringer X32 , that mixer costs about $3000 which has about 25 channels, it is a digital mixer which has preset fader's and a touch screen to touch the effects and EQ's, these things are not very easy to use I can agree BUT, you could've saved $1500 and instead gotten an Allen & Heath ZED 420 , it may be analog but that is enough for what you need and it is a far much better brand than Behringer which has been known in the past to overcharge their products, so you guys should've done some research. Using the excuse you had no time is bullshit, I learnt in 2 school days (about 2 and half hours in total) how to use a mixer, if you had no idea what you were doing you should've RESEARCHED or NOT EVEN BOTHER AT ALL if you knew you would not know what to do and boy my ears defintley knew you guys fucked up. Apparntley from what I know you guys had your faders down? That is a big no no. Microphones and computers/console devices are always set up where they are not adding or subtracing any audio, that is meant for lets say you doing a production and you're fading in music onto the talent, this is a much different situation. To mess with the audio thats what your gain and trim levels are, now for the mics, they were ass, not sure what their pickup patterns were but they probably were something like an Omnidirectional pattern which picks up EVERYTHING. A cardoid mic only pics up what is right infront of it so that is what you guys should've gotten, also people didn't know how to speak through the mic, now I wasn't personally there but when I am helping out at my teacher we tell people how to use the mic right before they use it and everything goes smooth. Also one thing that is bothering me if you guys just bought all this expensive equipment because you thought more money= better. I know things don't turn out well the first time BUT I am 16 and yet I know how to use this stuff and you guys are what 25 and is not the first time you hosting a GDQ? You have how many months inbetween? In those months you can spend a week or 2 and plan this out and learn it rather than all last minute. Also do you guys know what a PFL/AFL is? There were times were bad static noise came in through for about a minte, THAT IS WHAT PFL IS FOR, it isolates the audio from the master and only the headphones cue can get it so you can settle it out.

Woh woh, slow down. There's a lot of complete mistakes here.

1. There's nothing wrong with some of Behringer's equipment. The first thing you'll learn later on is that brand loyalty is not conducive to smart purchasing decisions. Tons of major productions use the X32 just fine. Also, it does not have a touch screen, it has 32 (more like 38 with aux) inputs, and more. It's extremely well rated by many people, including actual working professionals that I've talked to prior to purchasing. I did extensive research before this.
2. We had no time for testing and setup, not to learn the mixer. I personally had the mixer for months prior and know just about every function short of the effects system that we had no use for.
3. The faders were at near unity the entire time, and were only used to adjust balance amongst the mix as different commentators came in. Also, digital faders are not identical to analog faders. They are digital gain on top of the preamps, and as long as you're not boosting more than 5db (never happened), it's cleaner. Not that this matters, most details one would mess up with this are completely unaudible on a medium bitrate audio stream.
4. If you are learning about broadcast, you should learn that broadcast is not the same as a live environment. We had to deal with a cathedral-like setting, no time for ringing out feedback, no time for level checks, nothing. This is why it was so bad initially. It wasn't ignorance, it was literally "we're already 30 minutes behind start time and we're not ready". That was the real mess up, and we've admitted that many times. We were not on site to open and build all this equipment, so we couldn't do everything weeks/months beforehand. We didn't give ourselves enough time to set up. It's not going to happen again.
5. The lavs were omni, which is basically a requirement for a live setting (uneducated people attaching mics themselves). No, we cannot train everyone to do this right, they're not even showing up all at the same time. Again, this isn't a broadcast production where you can physically put mics on people yourself. The rest of the mics were actually cardioid (the headset was actually hyper). The Shure SM57/58 is the most common cardioid mic in existence, so not sure why you confused that one, and we used a few.
6. I'd like to add the real reason we spent $3000 on a mixer: everything else you didn't mention. We got actual compressors, gating, and much better EQ per channel. This alone would have cost us a dizzying amount of money in outboard equipment. We were feeding over 10 channels of differently mixed outs (way more than your A&H would handle). In the end, the X32 gave us a ton of control that we absolutely needed, in one box, for much less than we'd pay for a separate mixer and outboard equipment to match.
7. And finally, yes I'm aware of what a pre-fader/after-fader solo is. If there was static for a minute, the real issue was probably no one actually at the mixer listening. This is a 24/7 production manned by limited numbers of volunteers. The only way to solve that is to have more people helping. I highly suggest that you volunteer for AGDQ.

By the way, instead of saying something is embarrassing, tell us what your teacher had issues with. That's what makes something a good critique instead of "shitting too much". I appreciate good critiquing, I appreciate any help with the audio. I'm no professional, I'm just the one with the most experience.

[quote="Lanayru"]I'm not going to bother reading through 8 pages too see if people have adressed the audio yet. So I will try to keep this nice and dandy as someone who is currently learning and studying to go broadcasting for AUDIO. You guys were using a Behringer X32 , that mixer costs about $3000 which has about 25 channels, it is a digital mixer which has preset fader's and a touch screen to touch the effects and EQ's, these things are not very easy to use I can agree BUT, you could've saved $1500 and instead gotten an Allen & Heath ZED 420 , it may be analog but that is enough for what you need and it is a far much better brand than Behringer which has been known in the past to overcharge their products, so you guys should've done some research. Using the excuse you had no time is bullshit, I learnt in 2 school days (about 2 and half hours in total) how to use a mixer, if you had no idea what you were doing you should've RESEARCHED or NOT EVEN BOTHER AT ALL if you knew you would not know what to do and boy my ears defintley knew you guys fucked up. Apparntley from what I know you guys had your faders down? That is a big no no. Microphones and computers/console devices are always set up where they are not adding or subtracing any audio, that is meant for lets say you doing a production and you're fading in music onto the talent, this is a much different situation. To mess with the audio thats what your gain and trim levels are, now for the mics, they were ass, not sure what their pickup patterns were but they probably were something like an Omnidirectional pattern which picks up EVERYTHING. A cardoid mic only pics up what is right infront of it so that is what you guys should've gotten, also people didn't know how to speak through the mic, now I wasn't personally there but when I am helping out at my teacher we tell people how to use the mic right before they use it and everything goes smooth. Also one thing that is bothering me if you guys just bought all this expensive equipment because you thought more money= better. I know things don't turn out well the first time BUT I am 16 and yet I know how to use this stuff and you guys are what 25 and is not the first time you hosting a GDQ? You have how many months inbetween? In those months you can spend a week or 2 and plan this out and learn it rather than all last minute. Also do you guys know what a PFL/AFL is? There were times were bad static noise came in through for about a minte, THAT IS WHAT PFL IS FOR, it isolates the audio from the master and only the headphones cue can get it so you can settle it out.

[/quote]

Woh woh, slow down. There's a lot of complete mistakes here.

1. There's nothing wrong with some of Behringer's equipment. The first thing you'll learn later on is that brand loyalty is not conducive to smart purchasing decisions. Tons of major productions use the X32 just fine. Also, it does not have a touch screen, it has 32 (more like 38 with aux) inputs, and more. It's extremely well rated by many people, including actual working professionals that I've talked to prior to purchasing. I did extensive research before this.
2. We had no time for testing and setup, not to learn the mixer. I personally had the mixer for months prior and know just about every function short of the effects system that we had no use for. 
3. The faders were at near unity the entire time, and were only used to adjust balance amongst the mix as different commentators came in. Also, digital faders are not identical to analog faders. They are digital gain on top of the preamps, and as long as you're not boosting more than 5db (never happened), it's cleaner. Not that this matters, most details one would mess up with this are completely unaudible on a medium bitrate audio stream.
4. If you are learning about broadcast, you should learn that broadcast is not the same as a live environment. We had to deal with a cathedral-like setting, no time for ringing out feedback, no time for level checks, nothing. This is why it was so bad initially. It wasn't ignorance, it was literally "we're already 30 minutes behind start time and we're not ready". That was the real mess up, and we've admitted that many times. We were not on site to open and build all this equipment, so we couldn't do everything weeks/months beforehand. We didn't give ourselves enough time to set up. It's not going to happen again.
5. The lavs were omni, which is basically a requirement for a live setting (uneducated people attaching mics themselves). No, we cannot train everyone to do this right, they're not even showing up all at the same time. Again, this isn't a broadcast production where you can physically put mics on people yourself. The rest of the mics were actually cardioid (the headset was actually hyper). The Shure SM57/58 is the most common cardioid mic in existence, so not sure why you confused that one, and we used a few. 
6. I'd like to add the real reason we spent $3000 on a mixer: everything else you didn't mention. We got actual compressors, gating, and much better EQ per channel. This alone would have cost us a dizzying amount of money in outboard equipment. We were feeding over 10 channels of differently mixed outs (way more than your A&H would handle). In the end, the X32 gave us a ton of control that we absolutely needed, in one box, for much less than we'd pay for a separate mixer and outboard equipment to match.
7. And finally, yes I'm aware of what a pre-fader/after-fader solo is. If there was static for a minute, the real issue was probably no one actually at the mixer listening. This is a 24/7 production manned by limited numbers of volunteers. The only way to solve that is to have more people helping. I highly suggest that you volunteer for AGDQ.

By the way, instead of saying something is embarrassing, tell us what your teacher had issues with. That's what makes something a good critique instead of "shitting too much". I appreciate good critiquing, I appreciate any help with the audio. I'm no professional, I'm just the one with the most experience.

Lanayru

2014-07-10 08:03:52 am

Techno is life

Gotta shake the tree to see what falls out

Thank you for actually replying ,and yes reading over I may have been a bit too shitting alot, there is obviously the difference between being there and knowing everything and seeing this at a computer.

As for what my teacher said, he pointed out the mics on the runners are not a very good pick up pattern, he said what is wrong with the quality, he pointed out the audio is too low or the mic is too high, he only saw a small bit as I was showing with my phone and he had exams to mark.

As for volunteering, sure just get me some cash as I'm 16 yr old with no job and me a flight from KBUF or CYZZ to Dulles and I'll be more than happy to come with my brother who also has experience with this technology.

Also just one thing I must point out.

Quote:

If you are learning about broadcast, you should learn that broadcast is not the same as a live environment

They are both being broadcasted live to an audience and use similar equipment, maybe the only differences are you have no switcher instead you're clicking a different layout on OBS/xsplit , you have no director telling you to pan in camera 1 or fade in red audio, it's not on Channel 15 or something.

And yes I do understand you can't be there 24/7 but don't be sacred to teach people how to use a mixer, if my teacher can trust teenagers using his far more expensive equipment, I'm sure you can trust 20 yr olds using yours.

Gotta shake the tree to see what falls out

Thank you for actually replying ,and yes reading over I may have been a bit too shitting alot, there is obviously the difference between being there and knowing everything and seeing this at a computer.

As for what my teacher said, he pointed out the mics on the runners are not a very good pick up pattern, he said what is wrong with the quality, he pointed out the audio is too low or the mic is too high, he only saw a small bit as I was showing with my phone and he had exams to mark.

As for volunteering, sure just get me some cash as I'm 16 yr old with no job and me a flight from KBUF or CYZZ to Dulles and I'll be more than happy to come with my brother who also has experience with this technology.

Also just one thing I must point out.

[quote]If you are learning about broadcast, you should learn that broadcast is not the same as a live environment[/quote]

They are both being broadcasted live to an audience and use similar equipment, maybe the only differences are you have no switcher instead you're clicking a different layout on OBS/xsplit ,  you have no director telling you to pan in camera 1 or fade in red audio, it's not on Channel 15 or something.

And yes I do understand you can't be there 24/7 but don't be sacred to teach people how to use a mixer, if my teacher can trust teenagers using his far more expensive equipment, I'm sure you can trust 20 yr olds using yours.

DarkAries

Edit history:

DarkAries: 2014-07-10 08:12:36 am

2014-07-10 08:12:02 am

So much has already said so I'm not going to repeat it. There were tech issues, you need more tech people actually helping. I would gladly help along with other people. But travelling to the states for a few days is somewhat costly and not everybody has the pleasure of being able to get donations. Maybe a marathon for funding costs for hosts and staff?

Now for the actual tech, PLEASE stop using composite and s-video. Every console by now has Component and RGB as an option. Invest in a NESRGB modded toaster or something. Have it modded to output 240p component or even just keep it on the stock 240P RGB. You are using pexcaps, USE THEM to the full potentional. Genesis has RGB by default, so does SNES. Okay N64 is a bit of an issue but in that one case an s-video signal will be fine. You are planning on trying to get quality out of the lowest options possible. Get an XRGB mini, hook everything up to there with a video switcher, and pull ONE hdmi cord to capture. Look into using avisynth on your set up.

Using avisynth scripts in your set up you can have already cropped games, resized to the proper resolution. Just do a dry run of every game before, crop them properly in the script, resize, get on to the next one. When the next game happens comment out the old game, uncomment the new game, refresh the video capture feed, boom. Sure this takes some effort and testing before hand, which I know you people are trying to work on. But this beats doing stuff on the fly and having issues. And with and avisynth script you can tweak it while not live in OBS, then a quick uncheck, check of the feed goes to your new script. This would help out SO MUCH.

Audio issues I'm not gonna bother on commenting. Everybody has said enough. What I would look into is pencil mics from the ceiling , also look into getting the runner an ear piece for monitor audio. This way even if there are tv audio issues, the runner always has the game in his ear, can hear the audio cues, and can even hear things from tech like "Speaker louder" or "Move back your head is being cut off". This is doable, again just huge amount of effort need to go in BEFORE. Spike and others have the right idea with a dry run the day before. No surprises, everything was tested, noted, we are good to go.

Oh and if possible the only thing people should be bringing is a game and controller. Swapping consoles is just terrible and waiting for shit to go bad. Invest. Go to a thrift store and ebay, get some consoles. They don't have to look good. They just have to work. You guys are spending so much money on tech, put aside like 200 bucks and invest in some GDQ consoles. Brand them, paint them I don't care, but this would also make life easier knowing people aren't touching things and less things can go wrong.

Layouts. Get artists to do it. Make a thread. Submit your SGDQ layouts. Pick and choose options from all of them. Give feedback, let people submit new ones, with multiple people doing the work from the same feedback a lot of different layouts can happen and hell, you might get enough to rotate around every day. People will do a lot for a good cause, just learn to ask.

In between games was bad IMO. Logos plastered everywhere, looked like random stuff vomited onto an OBS scene. Look into what Esports streamers do with the logo slide show, maybe have different inbetween scenes showing different logos and info. Just make it so a person rotate between like 2 or 3 and it'll be fine. Also make sure it's even, maybe have a counter that okay, transition 1 has been used 15 times, 2 and 3 only 10. Rotate between 2 and 3 till they are also at 15. Hell maybe look into block layouts. Hey it's the megaman block, let's use the megaman themed layout X artist made for us. You could even plug people in during them. Shoutouts to X for this layout along with our sponsors, here's some OC Remix megaman tunes while we set up. Little things like that. LOL plays the SAME FREAKING SONG during break periods but atleast it looks nice. There is so much do here that can make it awesome.

On the topic of sponsors and prizes, the whiteboard idea would def help out. Have it on the whiteboard that the prizes right now are this, try to plug them in. Maybe have them showing during the break scenes. Remember to actually plug them. Donation comments as well, it's break time, after you plug everything try to go through as many as possible, if you are ahead of schedule, use that time to get through the giant backlog, double check your connections. Trying to stay ahead of schedule is not always a good idea. Oh well what happens if we start running behind? I would rather we stay behind and stay at a good quality, then start cutting corners and everything starts to go bad. People will accept we are behind, so long the quality doesn't suffer.

That's about the most I can say as a viewer, maybe AGDQ I can be there to help out with Tech who knows. I've also taken broadcasting like Lanayru (same class and teacher actually but years earlier). I know this shit and would gladly help. So that's about everything I can say that can be improved on from a Tech point of view. If you want more help with the RGB/Component help and everything, just ask me. I've been researching this like crazy for the past few months. The quality is difference is huge and would certainly help out. Sure there is some investment with new cords and adapters, but that's pennies compared to all the money you've sunk into tech already.

So much has already said so I'm not going to repeat it. There were tech issues, you need more tech people actually helping. I would gladly help along with other people. But travelling to the states for a few days is somewhat costly and not everybody has the pleasure of being able to get donations. Maybe a marathon for funding costs for hosts and staff?

Now for the actual tech, PLEASE stop using composite and s-video. Every console by now has Component and RGB as an option. Invest in a NESRGB modded toaster or something. Have it modded to output 240p component or even just keep it on the stock 240P RGB. You are using pexcaps, USE THEM to the full potentional. Genesis has RGB by default, so does SNES. Okay N64 is a bit of an issue but in that one case an s-video signal will be fine. You are planning on trying to get quality out of the lowest options possible. Get an XRGB mini, hook everything up to there with a video switcher, and pull ONE hdmi cord to capture. Look into using avisynth on your set up.

Using avisynth scripts in your set up you can have already cropped games, resized to the proper resolution. Just do a dry run of every game before, crop them properly in the script, resize, get on to the next one. When the next game happens comment out the old game, uncomment the new game, refresh the video capture feed, boom. Sure this takes some effort and testing before hand, which I know you people are trying to work on. But this beats doing stuff on the fly and having issues. And with and avisynth script you can tweak it while not live in OBS, then a quick uncheck, check of the feed goes to your new script. This would help out SO MUCH.

Audio issues I'm not gonna bother on commenting. Everybody has said enough. What I would look into is pencil mics from the ceiling , also look into getting the runner an ear piece for monitor audio. This way even if there are tv audio issues, the runner always has the game in his ear, can hear the audio cues, and can even hear things from tech like "Speaker louder" or "Move back your head is being cut off". This is doable, again just huge amount of effort need to go in BEFORE. Spike and others have the right idea with a dry run the day before. No surprises, everything was tested, noted, we are good to go.

Oh and if possible the only thing people should be bringing is a game and controller. Swapping consoles is just terrible and waiting for shit to go bad. Invest. Go to a thrift store and ebay, get some consoles. They don't have to look good. They just have to work. You guys are spending so much money on tech, put aside like 200 bucks and invest in some GDQ consoles. Brand them, paint them I don't care, but this would also make life easier knowing people aren't touching things and less things can go wrong.

Layouts. Get artists to do it. Make a thread. Submit your SGDQ layouts. Pick and choose options from all of them. Give feedback, let people submit new ones, with multiple people doing the work from the same feedback a lot of different layouts can happen and hell, you might get enough to rotate around every day. People will do a lot for a good cause, just learn to ask.

In between games was bad IMO. Logos plastered everywhere, looked like random stuff vomited onto an OBS scene. Look into what Esports streamers do with the logo slide show, maybe have different inbetween scenes showing different logos and info. Just make it so a person rotate between like 2 or 3 and it'll be fine. Also make sure it's even, maybe have a counter that okay, transition 1 has been used 15 times, 2 and 3 only 10. Rotate between 2 and 3 till they are also at 15.  Hell maybe look into block layouts. Hey it's the megaman block, let's use the megaman themed layout X artist made for us. You could even plug people in during them. Shoutouts to X for this layout along with our sponsors, here's some OC Remix megaman tunes while we set up. Little things like that. LOL plays the SAME FREAKING SONG during break periods but atleast it looks nice. There is so much do here that can make it awesome.

On the topic of sponsors and prizes, the whiteboard idea would def help out. Have it on the whiteboard that the prizes right now are this, try to plug them in. Maybe have them showing during the break scenes. Remember to actually plug them. Donation comments as well, it's break time, after you plug everything try to go through as many as possible, if you are ahead of schedule, use that time to get through the giant backlog, double check your connections. Trying to stay ahead of schedule is not always a good idea. Oh well what happens if we start running behind? I would rather we stay behind and stay at a good quality, then start cutting corners and everything starts to go bad. People will accept we are behind, so long the quality doesn't suffer.

That's about the most I can say as a viewer, maybe AGDQ I can be there to help out with Tech who knows. I've also taken broadcasting like Lanayru (same class and teacher actually but years earlier). I know this shit and would gladly help. So that's about everything I can say that can be improved on from a Tech point of view. If you want more help with the RGB/Component help and everything, just ask me. I've been researching this like crazy for the past few months. The quality is difference is huge and would certainly help out. Sure there is some investment with new cords and adapters, but that's pennies compared to all the money you've sunk into tech already.

EggmaniMN

2014-07-10 08:30:52 am

It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.

I also still like the idea of linking to a person's twitch page from the schedule directly. I know that was talked about before the marathon and talked about here as well. The marathon isn't about personal viewer gain (or at least it really isn't for me I guess) but I know at least a few people got something like 40-50 followers off of their run and nowhere close to the "200-300" that was quoted as being a low estimate for gain earlier in the thread. Having more ways to push people in the community is always good.

It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.

I also still like the idea of linking to a person's twitch page from the schedule directly. I know that was talked about before the marathon and talked about here as well. The marathon isn't about personal viewer gain (or at least it really isn't for me I guess) but I know at least a few people got something like 40-50 followers off of their run and nowhere close to the "200-300" that was quoted as being a low estimate for gain earlier in the thread. Having more ways to push people in the community is always good.

Drakodan

Edit history:

Drakodan: 2014-07-10 08:39:26 am

2014-07-10 08:35:37 am

Bad Sandwich

Quote from Lanayru:

As for volunteering, sure just get me some cash as I'm 16 yr old with no job and me a flight from KBUF or CYZZ to Dulles and I'll be more than happy to come with my brother who also has experience with this technology.

What in the world am I reading.

The feedback I can give is probably minimal since I wasn't at the event, just viewing online, but I guess I can echo the concerns about audio levels/communication onsite. It was very obvious that the runners/readers couldn't hear each other, but why was that? It wasn't an issue at AGDQ.

Forgot to say a massive thank you to Mike, Romscout UA, and everyone else who was integral to the smooth running of the event. I really wouldn't worry much about being on-edge and snappy with people, because the effort you put in to make these events happen speaks volumes and demands a lot of respect. I was really pissed off at the chat during UA's Eversion run when they were complaining about the backtracking and mistakes. They'd spent hours before that complaining about the A/V issues which UA took a lot of time and effort to fix, then they thank him like that during his run. Stay classy, Twitch.

[quote="Lanayru"]As for volunteering, sure just get me some cash as I'm 16 yr old with no job and me a flight from KBUF or CYZZ to Dulles and I'll be more than happy to come with my brother who also has experience with this technology.[/quote]

What in the world am I reading.

The feedback I can give is probably minimal since I wasn't at the event, just viewing online, but I guess I can echo the concerns about audio levels/communication onsite. It was very obvious that the runners/readers couldn't hear each other, but why was that? It wasn't an issue at AGDQ.

Forgot to say a massive thank you to Mike, Romscout UA, and everyone else who was integral to the smooth running of the event. I really wouldn't worry much about being on-edge and snappy with people, because the effort you put in to make these events happen speaks volumes and demands a lot of respect. I was really pissed off at the chat during UA's Eversion run when they were complaining about the backtracking and mistakes. They'd spent hours before that complaining about the A/V issues which UA took a lot of time and effort to fix, then they thank him like that during his run. Stay classy, Twitch.

Questor

2014-07-10 08:35:57 am

Posting as a viewer of GDQs since 2012 here, and most, if not all of my points have probably been said already but they're still valid, at least IM(NS)HO Smiley

Steam Layout - Yes it wasn't the best, but it was watchable. Personally I prefer having the game feed as the biggest window, and at times it felt like it wasn't. I appreciate that people (Including myself) want to see the runners, but lets face it, viewers want to see the GAMES run fast!
I would love to have the category listed next to the game, as it can get really confusing to watch a run when you're not sure whether it's an any%, 100% etc.....

Audio issues - I didn't have too much of a problem, except for the lack of volume for most of the couch commentators who had mics

Hype - It definitely felt much less hype compared to previous marathons (AGDQ this year in particular) and I don't think that can just be put down to the 'MILLION DOLLAR HYPE!'. I don't think the lack of people in the room actually made that much difference to that, it just seemed for the most part that the runs were just not quite as 'epic' this time. I'm thinking of things like the blindfold Punch Out run from AGDQ for example.

Personally I don't have a problem with the swearing. I understand that not getting a trick can be frustrating. I appreciate it's not to everyone's taste, but calling people out for a little bit of swearing seems a bit rough - after all, the runners are all under pressure in the middle of a run, things slip out!

Schedule - Getting ahead of schedule in a marathon like this is kinda unacceptable to me. That sounds harsh and I don't mean it to be so, but when people are looking at the schedule and expecting a run at a certain time, to find out it's already halfway through or even completed makes you want to just turn off. I like Golden's suggestion of hyping the cause/donations/upcoming runs etc until the scheduled start time for the next run. There's ALWAYS things that can be promoted at an event like this...which leads me on to my next point....

Donations/prizes - The prizes are a FANTASTIC incentive for donations, but when combined with the schedule underruns, it made donating to try and get a specific prize very hard. While it didn't stop me from donating, as I see the prizes as just a really nice bonus chance, I think it would definitely put off some people.

Finale - While I agree that a slightly longer game is good for a finale, I'm PERSONALLY not sure an RPG really fits that well. I think for the most part they are just too slow paced to build up the finale hype.

I like GDQ Monitor, I think it added a much needed light heartedness to SGDQ that seemed slightly missing for the most part (I also missed having something like the Reimu plush from last year - that actually really hyped the chat in a good way)

Just a random stream of consciousness type post. Hope I've not come across as bashing, because I'm really not. I totally appreciate the effort that goes in to putting these events on, so thanks to Mike, Rom, UA and everyone else, and long may it continue!

Posting as a viewer of GDQs since 2012 here, and most, if not all of my points have probably been said already but they're still valid, at least IM(NS)HO :)

Steam Layout - Yes it wasn't the best, but it was watchable. Personally I prefer having the game feed as the biggest window, and at times it felt like it wasn't. I appreciate that people (Including myself) want to see the runners, but lets face it, viewers want to see the GAMES run fast! 
I would love to have the category listed next to the game, as it can get really confusing to watch a run when you're not sure whether it's an any%, 100% etc.....

Audio issues - I didn't have too much of a problem, except for the lack of volume for most of the couch commentators who had mics

Hype - It definitely felt much less hype compared to previous marathons (AGDQ this year in particular) and I don't think that can just be put down to the 'MILLION DOLLAR HYPE!'. I don't think the lack of people in the room actually made that much difference to that, it just seemed for the most part that the runs were just not quite as 'epic' this time. I'm thinking of things like the blindfold Punch Out run from AGDQ for example.

Personally I don't have a problem with the swearing. I understand that not getting a trick can be frustrating. I appreciate it's not to everyone's taste, but calling people out for a little bit of swearing seems a bit rough - after all, the runners are all under pressure in the middle of a run, things slip out!

Schedule - Getting ahead of schedule in a marathon like this is kinda unacceptable to me. That sounds  harsh and I don't mean it to be so, but when people are looking at the schedule and expecting a run at a certain time, to find out it's already halfway through or even completed makes you want to just turn off. I like Golden's suggestion of hyping the cause/donations/upcoming runs etc until the scheduled start time for the next run. There's ALWAYS things that can be promoted at an event like this...which leads me on to my next point....

Donations/prizes - The prizes are a FANTASTIC incentive for donations, but when combined with the schedule underruns, it made donating to try and get a specific prize very hard. While it didn't stop me from donating, as I see the prizes as just a really nice bonus chance, I think it would definitely put off some people.

Finale - While I agree that a slightly longer game is good for a finale, I'm PERSONALLY not sure an RPG really fits that well. I think for the most part they are just too slow paced to build up the finale hype.

I like GDQ Monitor, I think it added a much needed light heartedness to SGDQ that seemed slightly missing for the most part (I also missed having something like the Reimu plush from last year - that actually really hyped the chat in a good way)

Just a random stream of consciousness type post. Hope I've not come across as bashing, because I'm really not. I totally appreciate the effort that goes in to putting these events on, so thanks to Mike, Rom, UA and everyone else, and long may it continue!

TheMG2

2014-07-10 08:37:33 am

Quote from EggmaniMN:

It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.

This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.

jetfirexx

2014-07-10 08:41:08 am

Gotta go fast!

I've seen a fair bit of discussion in here about using wireless mics and would like to throw my two cents in. I have a fair bit of experience in using audio equipment (mainly for sound stages with bands etc.) and I have had very mixed experiences with wireless mics. We spend £2,000 ($3,500 roughly) on a wireless tie mic system and it isn't bad per say but it is nothing compared to the much cheaper wired mics. You also are near enough always guaranteed to find yourself on a frequency shared by another person in our case the local taxi company! Especially if you are looking at cheaper systems. They also are vulnerable to much greater losses from interference than wired mics. There are ways to make a wireless mic system work but not on the sort of budget that a GDQ has. I will say that I have never had an issue with a wireless radio mic but again we spent a lot on that system which is not realistic for something such as GDQ. Personally, I think the current system with over ear or lapel mics is the best that you can hope for as a cheaper solution and preferable over shotgun mics which, although are useful, would probably pick up too much noise from the rest of the room.

As for the rest of the marathon, I think all of my issues have already been addressed; layout, host and runner communication, GDQ monitor etc. All in all it was a great watch again this year and a massive shout out to everyone that was involved! You did a great job and here is to a good AGDQ 2015!

I've seen a fair bit of discussion in here about using wireless mics and would like to throw my two cents in. I have a fair bit of experience in using audio equipment (mainly for sound stages with bands etc.) and I have had very mixed experiences with wireless mics. We spend £2,000 ($3,500 roughly) on a wireless tie mic system and it isn't bad per say but it is nothing compared to the much cheaper wired mics. You also are near enough always guaranteed to find yourself on a frequency shared by another person in our case the local taxi company! Especially if you are looking at cheaper systems. They also are vulnerable to much greater losses from interference than wired mics. There are ways to make a wireless mic system work but not on the sort of budget that a GDQ has. I will say that I have never had an issue with a wireless radio mic but again we spent [b]a lot[/b] on that system which is not realistic for something such as GDQ. Personally, I think the current system with over ear or lapel mics is the best that you can hope for as a cheaper solution and preferable over shotgun mics which, although are useful, would probably pick up too much noise from the rest of the room.

As for the rest of the marathon, I think all of my issues have already been addressed; layout, host and runner communication, GDQ monitor etc. All in all it was a great watch again this year and a massive shout out to everyone that was involved! You did a great job and here is to a good AGDQ 2015!

Omnigamer

2014-07-10 08:42:26 am

All the things

Quote from DarkAries:

Now for the actual tech, PLEASE stop using composite and s-video. Every console by now has Component and RGB as an option. Invest in a NESRGB modded toaster or something. Have it modded to output 240p component or even just keep it on the stock 240P RGB. You are using pexcaps, USE THEM to the full potentional. Genesis has RGB by default, so does SNES. Okay N64 is a bit of an issue but in that one case an s-video signal will be fine. You are planning on trying to get quality out of the lowest options possible. Get an XRGB mini, hook everything up to there with a video switcher, and pull ONE hdmi cord to capture. Look into using avisynth on your set up.

Oh and if possible the only thing people should be bringing is a game and controller. Swapping consoles is just terrible and waiting for shit to go bad. Invest. Go to a thrift store and ebay, get some consoles. They don't have to look good. They just have to work. You guys are spending so much money on tech, put aside like 200 bucks and invest in some GDQ consoles. Brand them, paint them I don't care, but this would also make life easier knowing people aren't touching things and less things can go wrong.

I'm going to disagree with you on the RGB issue. As far as quality goes, the additional clarity from moving up to RGB or component is going to go unnoticed by 99% of viewers, and will simply not be visible to anybody watching anything but source quality. The bigger issue is logistics. Most CRTs do not have any variety of component hookup, let alone SCART/RGB. Even when they do, 240p over component is not part of the standard so there's no guarantee that they can actually display it (I've actually blown fuses on TVs that didn't support it). In the event you have an actual YPbPr output on console (has to be modded in everything pre-PS2), that's also triple the cabling requirements for stringing everything back to the broadcast station and out of the splitters. Basically, it's a lot of extra work for not a lot of benefit.

I do agree with you a bit on the consoles side, especially since NESRGB is becoming a more common service. I want to point out that for the most part the older consoles were dedicated; runners shouldn't have been switching them out except for special needs. This occurred a few times due to region lockouts (JP Mega Drives, 64s). For these situations we can't guarantee that the incoming device will support a selected RGB/Component solution, so that flexibility of falling back to a common standard output (Composite or SVideo) is needed. Another unique situation is when PJ used my SNES to show off a SGnG bug that is unique to that model of SNES. So it would be nice to have standard SDA consoles with all quality mods as needed, but going above and beyond to RGB actually makes our setup too rigid.

Can RGB be done? Maybe so, but it introduces plenty of other issues. You may be able to front-load everything by passing it through an XRGB-mini and then dealing with splitting HDMI output to LCDs and the streaming center, but this would ruin a lot of runners' reactions. It also creates a single point of failure, which we should avoid whenever possible. Splitting out component on all the older systems is possible but in my experience PEXHDCAP cards are not the most reliable, especially when using multiple cards.

tl;dr: S-Video/composite is the simplest and most reliable option. There isn't enough benefit from moving up to RGB/Component.

[quote="DarkAries"]Now for the actual tech, PLEASE stop using composite and s-video. Every console by now has Component and RGB as an option. Invest in a NESRGB modded toaster or something. Have it modded to output 240p component or even just keep it on the stock 240P RGB. You are using pexcaps, USE THEM to the full potentional. Genesis has RGB by default, so does SNES. Okay N64 is a bit of an issue but in that one case an s-video signal will be fine. You are planning on trying to get quality out of the lowest options possible. Get an XRGB mini, hook everything up to there with a video switcher, and pull ONE hdmi cord to capture. Look into using avisynth on your set up.

Oh and if possible the only thing people should be bringing is a game and controller. Swapping consoles is just terrible and waiting for shit to go bad. Invest. Go to a thrift store and ebay, get some consoles. They don't have to look good. They just have to work. You guys are spending so much money on tech, put aside like 200 bucks and invest in some GDQ consoles. Brand them, paint them I don't care, but this would also make life easier knowing people aren't touching things and less things can go wrong.
[/quote]

I'm going to disagree with you on the RGB issue. As far as quality goes, the additional clarity from moving up to RGB or component is going to go unnoticed by 99% of viewers, and will simply not be visible to anybody watching anything but source quality. The bigger issue is logistics. Most CRTs do not have any variety of component hookup, let alone SCART/RGB. Even when they do, 240p over component is not part of the standard so there's no guarantee that they can actually display it (I've actually blown fuses on TVs that didn't support it). In the event you have an actual YPbPr output on console (has to be modded in everything pre-PS2), that's also triple the cabling requirements for stringing everything back to the broadcast station and out of the splitters. Basically, it's a lot of extra work for not a lot of benefit.

I do agree with you a bit on the consoles side, especially since NESRGB is becoming a more common service. I want to point out that for the most part the older consoles were dedicated; runners shouldn't have been switching them out except for special needs. This occurred a few times due to region lockouts (JP Mega Drives, 64s). For these situations we can't guarantee that the incoming device will support a selected RGB/Component solution, so that flexibility of falling back to a common standard output (Composite or SVideo) is needed. Another unique situation is when PJ used my SNES to show off a SGnG bug that is unique to that model of SNES. So it would be nice to have standard SDA consoles with all quality mods as needed, but going above and beyond to RGB actually makes our setup too rigid.

Can RGB be done? Maybe so, but it introduces plenty of other issues. You may be able to front-load everything by passing it through an XRGB-mini and then dealing with splitting HDMI output to LCDs and the streaming center, but this would ruin a lot of runners' reactions. It also creates a single point of failure, which we should avoid whenever possible. Splitting out component on all the older systems is possible but in my experience PEXHDCAP cards are not the most reliable, especially when using multiple cards.

tl;dr: S-Video/composite is the simplest and most reliable option. There isn't enough benefit from moving up to RGB/Component.

EggmaniMN

2014-07-10 08:46:07 am

Quote from TheMG2:

Quote from EggmaniMN:

It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.

This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.

Giving any frame of reference at all is better than none for a very large portion of viewers it seems. That said, just have it be a question during submission with a nice check box? Do you have a leaderboard for this game that you would like to link to y/n? and then it's up to the runner.

[quote="TheMG2"][quote="EggmaniMN"]It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.
[/quote]
This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.[/quote]

Giving any frame of reference at all is better than none for a very large portion of viewers it seems. That said, just have it be a question during submission with a nice check box? Do you have a leaderboard for this game that you would like to link to y/n? and then it's up to the runner.

DarkAries

2014-07-10 09:05:53 am

The benefit is actually large. You are scaling 240p all the way onto a 720p layout. Composite causing dithering, s-video has to be deinterlaced. Also I'm not saying string RGB cords to the set up. This is why I mentioned the XRGB. Also the Marathon TV should be a GOOD crt, and good ones DO support component 240p. I'm surprised somebody hasn't brought out a Sony PVM or a JVC there. Also going up to RGB would actually be LESS of a hassle. Everything uses SCART connectors. Scart SUPPORTS s-video and composite. So does JP21 if I'm not mistaken. You would need ONE cord going to a capture card, if you need to use composite/s-video so be it, the connectors support it This makes life EASIER when the capture card is only set to ONE setting, and the changes happen before it gets there. Also consoles have varying composite quality. Look at Genesis composite. It's god damn terrible. There is a reason there are threads of info on Sega-16 about RGB and s-video mods. Also the RGB cables aren't expensive either and all end up using the same connector.

Also nobody says we HAVE to use XRGBs. There are A LOT of scalers, XRGB isn't the only brand around, it's just the most popular. Go on ebay and look for a DVDO or something. The point I'm trying to make is there is so much focus on everything, but the game feed quality is being ignored. I think it's worth to look into it, since clearly the tech side needs a revamp at this point. Investing into quality and having a good setup seems like a good option to me. Also HDMI cords can be MUCH longer without the need amps in comparison to composite and s-video. It could also be more organized. I feel like I'm starting to loop here so I'm going to stop. The point is setting up for RGB/Component makes everything go through one input, makes it easy to handle and change things around, less prone to screw up.

For AGDQ the MMX? race that happened. The quality jump was absurd. One player had a nice clear video feed, the other muddy composite, and it showed. That's not fair to people, including the runners. It's also not fair that because everything is trying to be pumped through s-video that the terrible dithering and crosshatching happened during this year's SGDQ BECAUSE "composite and s-video are easiest". Maybe when it was the small tech crew it was the better option. But I think the next GDQ there is going to be much more knowledge and help, and moving onto a better setup is key. Now will it be RGB I don't know. Whatever it will be should be an improvement I would hope.

The benefit is actually large. You are scaling 240p all the way onto a 720p layout. Composite causing dithering, s-video has to be deinterlaced. Also I'm not saying string RGB cords to the set up. This is why I mentioned the XRGB. Also the Marathon TV should be a GOOD crt, and good ones DO support component 240p. I'm surprised somebody hasn't brought out a Sony PVM or a JVC there. Also going up to RGB would actually be LESS of a hassle. Everything uses SCART connectors. Scart SUPPORTS s-video and composite. So does JP21 if I'm not mistaken. You would need ONE cord going to a capture card, if you need to use composite/s-video so be it, the connectors support it This makes life EASIER when the capture card is only set to ONE setting, and the changes happen before it gets there. Also consoles have varying composite quality. Look at Genesis composite. It's god damn terrible. There is a reason there are threads of info on Sega-16 about RGB and s-video mods. Also the RGB cables aren't expensive either and all end up using the same connector.

Also nobody says we HAVE to use XRGBs. There are A LOT of scalers, XRGB isn't the only brand around, it's just the most popular. Go on ebay and look for a DVDO or something. The point I'm trying to make is there is so much focus on everything, but the game feed quality is being ignored. I think it's worth to look into it, since clearly the tech side needs a revamp at this point. Investing into quality and having a good setup seems like a good option to me. Also HDMI cords can be MUCH longer without the need amps in comparison to composite and s-video. It could also be more organized. I feel like I'm starting to loop here so I'm going to stop. The point is setting up for RGB/Component makes everything go through one input, makes it easy to handle and change things around, less prone to screw up.

For AGDQ the MMX? race that happened. The quality jump was absurd. One player had a nice clear video feed, the other muddy composite, and it showed. That's not fair to people, including the runners. It's also not fair that because everything is trying to be pumped through s-video that the terrible dithering and crosshatching happened during this year's SGDQ BECAUSE "composite and s-video are easiest". Maybe when it was the small tech crew it was the better option. But I think the next GDQ there is going to be much more knowledge and help, and moving onto a better setup is key. Now will it be RGB I don't know. Whatever it will be should be an improvement I would hope.

doicm

2014-07-10 09:09:04 am

To throw this in, I got confused whenever the couch had more than three people on it. When I tried going onto my first couch for Pikmin and four of us were asked to be there, a staff member explained that only three of us were allowed and that one of us had to leave. When did it change that more than three were OK'd?

kirbymastah

2014-07-10 09:23:35 am

<(^_^)>

Quote from EggmaniMN:

Quote from TheMG2:

Quote from EggmaniMN:

It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.

This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.

Giving any frame of reference at all is better than none for a very large portion of viewers it seems. That said, just have it be a question during submission with a nice check box? Do you have a leaderboard for this game that you would like to link to y/n? and then it's up to the runner.

Meh, there's a difference between:

1. Having "WR" on the layout during the entirety of the run
2. The runner mentioning it on the mic during the live run

For #2, I have no problems doing that for my runs at least. However, I make it clear that I waste time with a lot of swag strats and showy stuff, and that goes for many runners. That isn't going to be evident in the case of #1. A viewer could walk in, see the time, not catch me being explicit about why my time will be a lot slower, and make judgements based off of that. I guess on the layout, you could explicitly say "WR is **:** but this run will be slower because of swag/marathon/safety" but that would just cause so much unnecessary clutter <_<

Having some kind of "checkbox" would also be more work than necessary for the tech people.

[quote="EggmaniMN"][quote="TheMG2"][quote="EggmaniMN"]It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.
[/quote]
This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.[/quote]

Giving any frame of reference at all is better than none for a very large portion of viewers it seems. That said, just have it be a question during submission with a nice check box? Do you have a leaderboard for this game that you would like to link to y/n? and then it's up to the runner.
[/quote]

Meh, there's a difference between:

1. Having "WR" on the layout during the entirety of the run
2. The runner mentioning it on the mic during the live run

For #2, I have no problems doing that for my runs at least. However, I make it clear that I waste time with a lot of swag strats and showy stuff, and that goes for many runners. That isn't going to be evident in the case of #1. A viewer could walk in, see the time, not catch me being explicit about why my time will be a lot slower, and make judgements based off of that. I guess on the layout, you could explicitly say "WR is **:** but this run will be slower because of swag/marathon/safety" but that would just cause so much unnecessary clutter <_<

Having some kind of "checkbox" would also be more work than necessary for the tech people.

Loerwyn

2014-07-10 09:27:14 am

Quote from kirbymastah:

Meh, there's a difference between:

1. Having "WR" on the layout during the entirety of the run
2. The runner mentioning it on the mic during the live run

For #2, I have no problems doing that for my runs at least. However, I make it clear that I waste time with a lot of swag strats and showy stuff, and that goes for many runners. That isn't going to be evident in the case of #1. A viewer could walk in, see the time, not catch me being explicit about why my time will be a lot slower, and make judgements based off of that. I guess on the layout, you could explicitly say "WR is **:** but this run will be slower because of swag/marathon/safety" but that would just cause so much unnecessary clutter <_<

Having some kind of "checkbox" would also be more work than necessary for the tech people.

So, perhaps, an optional thing? Some runs are 'serious', others - like yours - are showcasing aspects of the game, and others won't count or they're so pointlessly short it's irrelevant as to what the WR or runner's PB is. Allow runners to decide whether they want the WR or their PB to be shown and then attempt to beat or replicate it.

I also wonder if there may be a way to indicate when a run breaks SDA guidelines and thus becomes invalid (as Blueglass' Ecco run heartbreakingly did this SDGQ) or whether or not it's being done to those guidelines.

[quote="kirbymastah"]
Meh, there's a difference between:

1. Having "WR" on the layout during the entirety of the run
2. The runner mentioning it on the mic during the live run

For #2, I have no problems doing that for my runs at least. However, I make it clear that I waste time with a lot of swag strats and showy stuff, and that goes for many runners. That isn't going to be evident in the case of #1. A viewer could walk in, see the time, not catch me being explicit about why my time will be a lot slower, and make judgements based off of that. I guess on the layout, you could explicitly say "WR is **:** but this run will be slower because of swag/marathon/safety" but that would just cause so much unnecessary clutter <_<

Having some kind of "checkbox" would also be more work than necessary for the tech people.[/quote]
So, perhaps, an optional thing? Some runs are 'serious', others - like yours - are showcasing aspects of the game, and others won't count or they're so pointlessly short it's irrelevant as to what the WR or runner's PB is. Allow runners to decide whether they want the WR or their PB to be shown and then attempt to beat or replicate it.

I also wonder if there may be a way to indicate when a run breaks SDA guidelines and thus becomes invalid (as Blueglass' Ecco run heartbreakingly did this SDGQ) or whether or not it's being done to those guidelines.

Reafexus

Edit history:

Reafexus: 2014-07-10 09:36:33 am

2014-07-10 09:36:11 am

Quote from kirbymastah:

Quote from EggmaniMN:

Quote from TheMG2:

Quote from EggmaniMN:

It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.

This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.

Giving any frame of reference at all is better than none for a very large portion of viewers it seems. That said, just have it be a question during submission with a nice check box? Do you have a leaderboard for this game that you would like to link to y/n? and then it's up to the runner.

Meh, there's a difference between:

1. Having "WR" on the layout during the entirety of the run
2. The runner mentioning it on the mic during the live run

For #2, I have no problems doing that for my runs at least. However, I make it clear that I waste time with a lot of swag strats and showy stuff, and that goes for many runners. That isn't going to be evident in the case of #1. A viewer could walk in, see the time, not catch me being explicit about why my time will be a lot slower, and make judgements based off of that. I guess on the layout, you could explicitly say "WR is **:** but this run will be slower because of swag/marathon/safety" but that would just cause so much unnecessary clutter <_<

Everybody is REALLY hung up on this number being the World Record. I know I started with that myself but in that same post I mentioned it being a PB or whatever time they would LIKE to do (or do better than). Marathon times are different has been mentioned 100 times. Then make it a number that is marathon appropriate. Runner's choice is perfectly reasonable. If you want it on stream, put it on stream. If you only want to link to a time, link in the schedule. If you don't want it at all, then don't provide it. You can even include how much time donation incentives add to the overall estimate if we want to get more granular and "honest".

Quote from kirbymastah:

Having some kind of "checkbox" would also be more work than necessary for the tech people.

How much extra work is doing the same exact thing they are already doing. They are not going to be pulling these off of the internet on the fly. They should be in the same exact spot the Estimate was. This involves more time prepping the schedule pre-marathon but it shouldn't have any affect at all on the live runs. (And if it does, there is something wrong with how estimates are handled and adding a PB/WR/Marathon time is the least of your problems.)

[quote="kirbymastah"][quote="EggmaniMN"][quote="TheMG2"][quote="EggmaniMN"]It seems like with the whole "give some frame of reference for the time on this game" thing, it'd just be solved if the marathon page could link to that game's entry on PB Tracker or whatever leaderboard that person uses, if they use one and people should be encouraged to put times in one of those sites. That way it'd give not only their best time, but the record usually gets listed in those pages as well if that person doesn't have it and it shows how far above/below the competition that person is in that game.
[/quote]
This does not change the fact that some people do not want their pb or wr to be mentioned in the marathon. They feel that a marathon run is not comparable to a world record attempt and a mere number does not really explain how good or bad a marathon run is.[/quote]

Giving any frame of reference at all is better than none for a very large portion of viewers it seems. That said, just have it be a question during submission with a nice check box? Do you have a leaderboard for this game that you would like to link to y/n? and then it's up to the runner.
[/quote]

Meh, there's a difference between:

1. Having "WR" on the layout during the entirety of the run
2. The runner mentioning it on the mic during the live run

For #2, I have no problems doing that for my runs at least. However, I make it clear that I waste time with a lot of swag strats and showy stuff, and that goes for many runners. That isn't going to be evident in the case of #1. A viewer could walk in, see the time, not catch me being explicit about why my time will be a lot slower, and make judgements based off of that. I guess on the layout, you could explicitly say "WR is **:** but this run will be slower because of swag/marathon/safety" but that would just cause so much unnecessary clutter <_<
[/quote]

Everybody is REALLY hung up on this number being the World Record. I know I started with that myself but in that same post I mentioned it being a PB or whatever time they would LIKE to do (or do better than). Marathon times are different has been mentioned 100 times. Then make it a number that is marathon appropriate. Runner's choice is perfectly reasonable. If you want it on stream, put it on stream. If you only want to link to a time, link in the schedule. If you don't want it at all, then don't provide it. You can even include how much time donation incentives add to the overall estimate if we want to get more granular and "honest".

[quote="kirbymastah"]
Having some kind of "checkbox" would also be more work than necessary for the tech people.[/quote]

How much extra work is doing the same exact thing they are already doing. They are not going to be pulling these off of the internet on the fly. They should be in the same exact spot the Estimate was. This involves more time prepping the schedule pre-marathon but it shouldn't have any affect at all on the live runs. (And if it does, there is something wrong with how estimates are handled and adding a PB/WR/Marathon time is the least of your problems.)

TheMG2

2014-07-10 09:40:41 am

A "marathon time" is basically what the estimate should be with setup handled separately. Now listing pb/wr on the other hand is different. What if you have it listed but you don't come remotely close to it? What then? This opens up the potential for a lot of criticism of the runner. IMO, let the runner explain what a good run is, not have an arbitrary number say whether a run is good or bad. (Runners should not explain their runs are bad, this brings down the mood)