Segmented Speedrunning Today

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-11-04 01:26:36 pm

LotBlind: 2018-11-04 01:25:31 pm

LotBlind: 2018-11-04 01:24:49 pm

2018-11-04 11:03:15 am

I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about segmented speedruns. They have been losing popularity, as far as I can tell based on what gets submitted on SDA these days, probably ever since the marathons started to pick up. This is an unfortunate side effect. Here's a short opener for a discussion about what exactly happened to them.

So what is a speedrun exactly? A speedrun is really a type of playthrough. The very definition of a game that can be speedrun coincides with a game that you can... play through, from some more or less set starting point to some defined end point. But any game whose playthrough is of significant length will always allow splitting the endeavour into multiple sessions. Thus a speedrun making use of the same facility does not seem so far-fetched either, provided you don't take exception to the implicit save-scumming (the protagonists don't notice it). Real time is an added layer on top of the base thing.

- A single-segment run is the story of some runner and how fast they can complete the game. It implicitly refers to game-external circumstances: the passage of real time, even if in-game time is ultimately used to time the run.

- A segmented run can only be explained from a game-internal point of view: it's the story of the protagonist[s] and how fast they can complete their story arc.

This division into game-internal and -external reality is a very easy one to make. We do this all the time, separating the fictional worlds of movies, books and games from the happenstance of where we are and how long we've been reading, watching or playing for.

Thus it becomes very difficult to deny segmented speedruns as an at least equally valid alternative, in case anyone was about to. There are obviously other reasons why one might want to speedrun a game in that way. Myself, I feel I'd have some trouble focusing on what I'm doing so intensely for extended periods of time. I also don't implicitly value the extra "runner" layer and skill-for-the-sake-of-skill or memorization. That's just a pragmatic necessity that keeps it all about humans; abandoning it results in TASing (a beast of its own).

Thanks to KennyMan666 for pointing out that livestreaming is probably another reason segmented runs lost popularity, assuming it's something your audience won't want to watch. IMHO if you don't want to speedrun without an audience present, you're using it as an instrument for getting something else, whether it be money, company, fame... If you really think that's what you want to do, go for it, but I personally don't see it as pure speedrunning at that point. I do this stuff because I find it challenging in the right way and because I believe that the games I'm running are deserving of it.

The third reason (that I also forgot about) is the fact that speedrun.com, the most popular speedrunning website, extremely seldom lists segmented categories because of its emphasis on competition – despite mods being given free reign in that matter – nor can you obviously compete in them on speedrunslive.org. If you think about it, in-game leaderboards also exist in more games these days, and those never track segmented records. I don't think any of the reasons listed here have anything to do with the actual worth of them though. It's just some collusion of trends. Perhaps segmented running is just the thing that you were looking for?

What do you think on this topic?

BTW: There might be a possibility to get a segmented run showcased during ESA. This hasn't really been talked about much (I brought the idea up here), but my vision was that you could finish your run, then submit it using the same procedure but keeping it hidden from others until its revelation at the event. You or someone else could then talk through the run as it's playing back. I think this would be a great way to start incorporating such runs in the live events. I also asked the GDQ people about this but didn't receive a reply so I don't know about them (SDA isn't directly associated with GDQs anymore in case someone hadn't realized).

Thread title:

I'd like to take this opportunity to talk about segmented speedruns. They have been losing popularity, as far as I can tell based on what gets submitted on SDA these days, probably ever since the marathons started to pick up. This is an unfortunate side effect. Here's a short opener for a discussion about what exactly happened to them.

So what is a speedrun exactly? A speedrun is really a type of playthrough. The very definition of a game that can be speedrun coincides with a game that you can... play through, from some more or less set starting point to some defined end point. But any game whose playthrough is of significant length will always allow splitting the endeavour into multiple sessions. Thus a speedrun making use of the same facility does not seem so far-fetched either, provided you don't take exception to the implicit save-scumming (the protagonists don't notice it). Real time is an added layer on top of the base thing.

- A single-segment run is the story of some runner and how fast they can complete the game. It implicitly refers to game-external circumstances: the passage of real time, even if in-game time is ultimately used to time the run.

- A segmented run can only be explained from a game-internal point of view: it's the story of the protagonist[s] and how fast they can complete their story arc.

This division into game-internal and -external reality is a very easy one to make. We do this all the time, separating the fictional worlds of movies, books and games from the happenstance of where we are and how long we've been reading, watching or playing for.

Thus it becomes very difficult to deny segmented speedruns as an at least equally valid alternative, in case anyone was about to. There are obviously other reasons why one might want to speedrun a game in that way. Myself, I feel I'd have some trouble focusing on what I'm doing so intensely for extended periods of time. I also don't implicitly value the extra "runner" layer and skill-for-the-sake-of-skill or memorization. That's just a pragmatic necessity that keeps it all about humans; abandoning it results in TASing (a beast of its own).

Thanks to KennyMan666 for pointing out that livestreaming is probably another reason segmented runs lost popularity, assuming it's something your audience won't want to watch. IMHO if you don't want to speedrun without an audience present, you're using it as an instrument for getting something else, whether it be money, company, fame... If you really think that's what you want to do, go for it, but I personally don't see it as pure speedrunning at that point. I do this stuff because I find it challenging in the right way and because I believe that the games I'm running are deserving of it.

The third reason (that I also forgot about) is the fact that speedrun.com, the most popular speedrunning website, extremely seldom lists segmented categories because of its emphasis on competition –  despite mods being given free reign in that matter – nor can you obviously compete in them on speedrunslive.org. If you think about it, in-game leaderboards also exist in more games these days, and those never track segmented records. I don't think any of the reasons listed here have anything to do with the actual worth of them though. It's just some collusion of trends. Perhaps segmented running is just the thing that you were looking for?

What do [b]you[/b] think on this topic?

BTW: There might be a possibility to get a segmented run showcased during ESA. This hasn't really been talked about much (I brought the idea up [url=https://www.speedrun.com/esa2018/thread/wosxx]here[/url]), but my vision was that you could finish your run, then submit it using the same procedure but keeping it hidden from others until its revelation at the event. You or someone else could then talk through the run as it's playing back. I think this would be a great way to start incorporating such runs in the live events. I also asked the GDQ people about this but didn't receive a reply so I don't know about them (SDA isn't directly associated with GDQs anymore in case someone hadn't realized).

burningsteel

Edit history:

burningsteel: 2018-11-04 06:24:09 pm

2018-11-04 06:20:10 pm

Soulless Killing Machine

Personally I enjoy watching multiple segmented versions of rpgs more so than just a single segment playthrough. When you are watching a single segment you already know right from the get go that it is inferior to segmented. Any long rpg with a single segment time that is equal or less that a segmented version are probably special cases. The superior results of segmented runs are more worthwhile in my opinion than single segment. Single segments can be great, but again...the time will in 99.9% of the cases be inferior.

For example let's take FF7. A long game that heavily depends on luck in a speedrun setting. No single segment runner would even attempt to get all of Tifa's Deathblow hits. Missing a Deathblow and not resetting immidiately means you are already behind in time. Some drops are important too. The curse of rng.

Also if you want to a watch a continuous run, then the segmented run could be compiled in a way that cuts out the save/load.

While speedrunning games I found multiple segmented runs to be very intense more so than single segmented runs. Probably because a single segment you are already in the mindset that better luck later on could make up for any past mistakes. In multi-segmented runs the pressure is on at every point. Miss moving around that corner optimally? Reset. That one guy moved away and you have to spend an extra couple seconds to get him? Reset. Failed to get that drop you needed from that one enemy that has a 1/4 chance of encountering and about 1/4 chance of dropping? Reset. Bad enemy pattern? Reset. The list goes on. Single segment for better or worse is generally more forgiving and maybe that is part of the appeal of playing it.

The rise of streaming for money and attention is probably part of it too. And from the viewer's point of view, What is more interesting, someone playing the same couple minute segment a hundred times, or them playing the full game?

What I do NOT understand is the active exclusion of segmented runs by many game communities on speedrun.com. The attitude that doing a game in segments is somehow not worthy, pointless, or condemn-able. Had a buddy of mine who did a segmented run in some Crysis game it was out right rejected because they "don't do segmented runs". Also Ninja Gaiden Black does not seem to allow segmented. Another odd case where one of the mods themselves has an extremely low segmented time, better than the single segment, but in his words "*And yes, the point of these forums is single segment. Not segmented." How asinine.

Personally I enjoy watching multiple segmented versions of rpgs more so than just a single segment playthrough.  When you are watching a single segment you already know right from the get go that it is inferior to segmented.  Any long rpg with a single segment time that is equal or less that a segmented version are probably special cases.  The superior results of segmented runs are more worthwhile in my opinion than single segment.  Single segments can be great, but again...the time will in 99.9% of the cases be inferior.

For example let's take FF7.  A long game that heavily depends on luck in a speedrun setting.  No single segment runner would even attempt to get all of Tifa's Deathblow hits.  Missing a Deathblow and not resetting immidiately means you are already behind in time.  Some drops are important too.  The curse of rng.

Also if you want to a watch a continuous run, then the segmented run could be compiled in a way that cuts out the save/load.

While speedrunning games I found multiple segmented runs to be very intense more so than single segmented runs.  Probably because a single segment you are already in the mindset that better luck later on could make up for any past mistakes.  In multi-segmented runs the pressure is on at every point.  Miss moving around that corner optimally? Reset.  That one guy moved away and you have to spend an extra couple seconds to get him? Reset.  Failed to get that drop you needed from that one enemy that has a 1/4 chance of encountering and about 1/4 chance of dropping? Reset.  Bad enemy pattern? Reset. The list goes on.  Single segment for better or worse is generally more forgiving and maybe that is part of the appeal of playing it.

The rise of streaming for money and attention is probably part of it too.  And from the viewer's point of view, What is more interesting, someone playing the same couple minute segment a hundred times, or them playing the full game?

What I do NOT understand is the active exclusion of segmented runs by many game communities on speedrun.com.  The attitude that doing a game in segments is somehow not worthy, pointless, or condemn-able.  Had a buddy of mine who did a segmented run in some Crysis game it was out right rejected because they "don't do segmented runs".  Also Ninja Gaiden Black does not seem to allow segmented.  Another odd case where one of the mods themselves has an extremely low segmented time, better than the single segment, but in his words "*And yes, the point of these forums is single segment. Not segmented."  How asinine.

Melodia

2018-11-04 07:34:23 pm

While doing segmented FFX attempts, Cereth pointed out that there's not really segemented "records" per se...there's no actual competition. There's, effectively, "the current segmented run" because its' in effect a more humanized TAS -- for the most part the actual effect of randomization and to a point even the skill of the runner are taken out of the equation (obviously most games still need slill but there's still the save scum factor that can make up for it to a poiny).
I don't think it even needed to ne pointed out that the rise in live steams contributed to the decline in segmented runs....but I do agree with the above posts that the bias against them is pretty odd. I for one find the end result much more interesting, in the same was a TAS is -- but TASes usually do the impossible where as real time runs still have the limitations.

ShikenNuggets

2018-11-04 10:17:17 pm

Don't have a whole lot to say on the matter, did want to touch on this though:

Quote:

What I do NOT understand is the active exclusion of segmented runs by many game communities on speedrun.com

The answer for that is simple; single-segment runs can't (or at least shouldn't) be directly compared to segmented runs. Segmented runs have an inherent advantage over single-segment, and they shouldn't be listed on the same leaderboards. For a lot of games there's no point in having a segmented leaderboard since segmented runs are pretty rare these days. Also, as Melodia brought up, a lot of people view them in the same regard as TAS runs, where it's more about what the theoretical best is, rather than being directly competitive as single-segment tends to be.

Personally, I think single-segment RTA runs are just inherently more impressive than segmented. It's just more... I don't know... real? to me. Having a 1hr long segmented run doesn't mean you can actually beat the game in one hour, whereas if you get a 1hr long single-segment RTA run, that means you actually beat the entire game in one hour. This isn't to say that segmented runs aren't really cool and interesting and ridiculously hard to make, but to me it's less grounded in reality and more about what's possible, whereas single-segment is what you can do.

Don't have a whole lot to say on the matter, did want to touch on this though:
[quote]What I do NOT understand is the active exclusion of segmented runs by many game communities on speedrun.com[/quote]

The answer for that is simple; single-segment runs can't (or at least shouldn't) be directly compared to segmented runs. Segmented runs have an inherent advantage over single-segment, and they shouldn't be listed on the same leaderboards. For a lot of games there's no point in having a segmented leaderboard since segmented runs are pretty rare these days. Also, as Melodia brought up, a lot of people view them in the same regard as TAS runs, where it's more about what the theoretical best is, rather than being directly competitive as single-segment tends to be.

Personally, I think single-segment RTA runs are just inherently more impressive than segmented. It's just more... I don't know... real? to me. Having a 1hr long segmented run doesn't mean you can actually beat the game in one hour, whereas if you get a 1hr long single-segment RTA run, that means you [i]actually[/i] beat the entire game in one hour. This isn't to say that segmented runs aren't really cool and interesting and ridiculously hard to make, but to me it's less grounded in reality and more about what's possible, whereas single-segment is what [i]you[/i] can do.

Quivico

2018-11-04 10:30:32 pm

I'm relatively new to speedrunning, so I don't have much experience with segmented runs. That said, it's very true that they've fallen out of favor. TASes and single-segment runs just capture more attention. Thinking broadly, why would one put in all the effort to optimize and still be left with human error, when one could perfectly optimize and be left with a more visually impressive run? RTA routing carries on regardless.
As a newer runner, I personally don't understand much of the appeal of segmented runs. Sure, it's nice to see humans performing tricks, but again, single-segment runs are just that more impressive. Segments help take care of RNG, but the ideal of single-segment is that it can be considered "normal". A normal player goes straight through the game, they don't complete a section and then do it again. This is also why it might be easier for new people to get into single-segment runs, it's already familiar. Let's just play the game faster! Why try this one section over and over again, and then search for the right clips to stitch together? It's much easier to sit down for an hour and be done with it.
As said, speedrun.com is primarily single-segment because that is what is competitive. For the unfamiliar, it's simpler to compare straight-through runs. And submitting a segmented run to a single-segment leaderboard is akin to giving yourself an unfair advantage, so it's better to submit it elsewhere. Not that elsewhere exists...
One more point. Segmented runs are admirable, but it's easier to make a better story out of single-segment runs. You can easily track improvement over time, for one, and knowing that your favorite runner could fail at any given trick adds tension. When Twitch is so popular, it makes sense that the stories of individual runners is prioritized over that of games.

I'm relatively new to speedrunning, so I don't have much experience with segmented runs. That said, it's very true that they've fallen out of favor. TASes and single-segment runs just capture more attention. Thinking broadly, why would one put in all the effort to optimize and still be left with human error, when one could perfectly optimize and be left with a more visually impressive run? RTA routing carries on regardless.
As a newer runner, I personally don't understand much of the appeal of segmented runs. Sure, it's nice to see humans performing tricks, but again, single-segment runs are just that more impressive. Segments help take care of RNG, but the ideal of single-segment is that it can be considered "normal". A normal player goes straight through the game, they don't complete a section and then do it again. This is also why it might be easier for new people to get into single-segment runs, it's already familiar. Let's just play the game faster! Why try this one section over and over again, and then search for the right clips to stitch together? It's much easier to sit down for an hour and be done with it.
As said, speedrun.com is primarily single-segment because that is what is competitive. For the unfamiliar, it's simpler to compare straight-through runs. And submitting a segmented run to a single-segment leaderboard is akin to giving yourself an unfair advantage, so it's better to submit it elsewhere. Not that elsewhere exists...
One more point. Segmented runs are admirable, but it's easier to make a better story out of single-segment runs. You can easily track improvement over time, for one, and knowing that your favorite runner [i]could fail[/i] at any given trick adds tension. When Twitch is so popular, it makes sense that the stories of individual runners is prioritized over that of games.

burningsteel

2018-11-05 12:16:13 am

Soulless Killing Machine

Quote from ShikenNuggets:

Don't have a whole lot to say on the matter, did want to touch on this though:

Quote:

What I do NOT understand is the active exclusion of segmented runs by many game communities on speedrun.com

The answer for that is simple; single-segment runs can't (or at least shouldn't) be directly compared to segmented runs. Segmented runs have an inherent advantage over single-segment, and they shouldn't be listed on the same leaderboards

So...why not just have another category? That is what they are there for. Some games have like a dozen or more categories, with even sub categories! It is easy enough to create a category, literally a couple clicks as a mod. People understand what segmented means. There really is no excuse to not be able to just add another category if someone wants to submit one.

Also there seems to be an unawareness about how the different methodologies have fed off of each other on games. TAS is the most analytic and very low level information can be found and new strategies found. While single segmented people could potentially find that information out most do not. Multi segmented tends to find an interesting balance in-between, and sometimes runners find stuff not in TAS or the single segment. With each camp possibly feeding off the new information of each other as it comes out.

Each method can add its own value and its exclusion would be a loss to any community. When it is so simple to add it why exclude it?

Quote from Melodia:

While doing segmented FFX attempts, Cereth pointed out that there's not really segemented "records" per se...there's no actual competition. There's, effectively, "the current segmented run" because its' in effect a more humanized TAS -- for the most part the actual effect of randomization and to a point even the skill of the runner are taken out of the equation

If you can continually do a section over a hundred times you can probably do it pretty good in a single segment if you wanted to. Besides...normal people are not doing speedruns anyway. I think it is fair to say that most speedrunners are skilled players. But multi segmented is kind of like a humanized TAS I suppose. Interesting when you put that way. However since I have done a couple segmented runs it is not so mechanical as you might think, and not really like a TAS. I have also dabbled in TAS as well but that was just a bit too slow for my taste. Useful and interesting, but I wanted to be able to play the game not advance frame by frame so much. Also the reloading was really slow. I enjoyed finding something the current runner of that game did not to save a couple frames, but...eh. When it takes you like 3 weeks just to get near the end of the game I felt that was a bit much.

Segmented runs are also unique compared to single segments since there are many strategies that are simply not feasible in a single segment and vice versa. However, knowledge can come to light that shows how to do something in the segmented/TAS run more easily. But if no one knows about the more ideal strategy then no one will find how to do that. Excluding those types of runs would basically harm that exchange.

Kind of late...hope what I wrote made sense. Good night all.

[quote="ShikenNuggets"]Don't have a whole lot to say on the matter, did want to touch on this though:
[quote]What I do NOT understand is the active exclusion of segmented runs by many game communities on speedrun.com[/quote]
The answer for that is simple; single-segment runs can't (or at least shouldn't) be directly compared to segmented runs. Segmented runs have an inherent advantage over single-segment, and they shouldn't be listed on the same leaderboards[/quote]
So...why not just have another category?  That is what they are there for.  Some games have like a dozen or more categories, with even sub categories!  It is easy enough to create a category, literally a couple clicks as a mod.  People understand what segmented means.  There really is no excuse to not be able to just add another category if someone wants to submit one.

Also there seems to be an unawareness about how the different methodologies have fed off of each other on games.  TAS is the most analytic and very low level information can be found and new strategies found.  While single segmented people could potentially find that information out most do not.  Multi segmented tends to find an interesting balance in-between, and sometimes runners find stuff not in TAS or the single segment.  With each camp possibly feeding off the new information of each other as it comes out.

Each method can add its own value and its exclusion would be a loss to any community. When it is so simple to add it why exclude it?

[quote="Melodia"]While doing segmented FFX attempts, Cereth pointed out that there's not really segemented "records" per se...there's no actual competition. There's, effectively, "the current segmented run" because its' in effect a more humanized TAS -- for the most part the actual effect of randomization and to a point even the skill of the runner are taken out of the equation [/quote]
If you can continually do a section over a hundred times you can probably do it pretty good in a single segment if you wanted to.  Besides...normal people are not doing speedruns anyway.  I think it is fair to say that most speedrunners are skilled players.  But multi segmented is kind of like a humanized TAS I suppose. Interesting when you put that way.  However since I have done a couple segmented runs it is not so mechanical as you might think, and not really like a TAS.  I have also dabbled in TAS as well but that was just a bit too slow for my taste.  Useful and interesting, but I wanted to be able to play the game not advance frame by frame so much. Also the reloading was really slow. I enjoyed finding something the current runner of that game did not to save a couple frames, but...eh.  When it takes you like 3 weeks just to get near the end of the game I felt that was a bit much.

Segmented runs are also unique compared to single segments since there are many strategies that are simply not feasible in a single segment and vice versa.  However, knowledge can come to light that shows how to do something in the segmented/TAS run more easily.  But if no one knows about the more ideal strategy then no one will find how to do that. Excluding those types of runs would basically harm that exchange.

Kind of late...hope what I wrote made sense.   Good night all.

Melodia

2018-11-05 06:26:45 am

I wasn't saying segmented runners aren't skilled, just that they aren't nessesarily the MOST skilled. That is to say, someone who may not be in the top 10 in RTA still could get the best segmented run for a lot of games.

And one other thing I think might be in consideration -- since people don't usually stream segmented runs they may lose a bit of the potential validity issue there. Do remember there have and are instances of people cheating.,...without the verification of "it was done live" that's much higher. I think that could easily make a big block against them in a lot of peoples' mind, even if they don't even realize it.

ShikenNuggets

2018-11-05 07:49:45 am

Quote:

So...why not just have another category?

Literally the next sentence in my post was

Quote:

For a lot of games there's no point in having a segmented leaderboard since segmented runs are pretty rare these days

On games I moderate we try to avoid making any categories unless at least two people actually run them, and the games I moderate are fairly small. I imagine larger games have higher bars for adding new categories. There may be some cases where it is actually prejudice against segmented runs, but most of the time I think it's just business as usual.

burningsteel

2018-11-05 08:14:49 am

Soulless Killing Machine

Quote from Melodia:

I wasn't saying segmented runners aren't skilled, just that they aren't nessesarily the MOST skilled. That is to say, someone who may not be in the top 10 in RTA still could get the best segmented run for a lot of games.

And one other thing I think might be in consideration -- since people don't usually stream segmented runs they may lose a bit of the potential validity issue there. Do remember there have and are instances of people cheating.,...without the verification of "it was done live" that's much higher. I think that could easily make a big block against them in a lot of peoples' mind, even if they don't even realize it.

Yes I agree with you. If you can do a rta you can do segmented.

Segmented runs they are verified the same as single segmented. Make sure that the same state is continuous, meaning make sure they do not suddenly have 10 bombs instead of the 0 they had before. No sudden skips like missing screens or such.

Playing live may seem to the viewer as more reliable, but is it really? As a test I could probably make a "this was done" live and cheat without anyone being the wiser. The way to do that would be to start a pre-recording of a good run, and then "play along". Any issues I can just crop up to audio/video desync , maybe even simulate some issues in there like poor audio quality or dropped frames to make it harder to detect any clip combining. However if I did it with tools like a TAS no one would be the wiser. The only way people would be able to tell at that point would be if there are actual render or game differences between the game and emulator. At this point there are few games that have differences like that especially for older games. Seeing as how TAS runs can be replayed on actual hardware. Similarly to how that cheater of Donkey Kong was caught out at Twin Galaxies where he used MAME instead of an actual arcade machine, one of that person's many cheats. Or if you were doing it in a live venue.

If you want to get really paranoid how are you sure that what you are watching is what they are actually playing even in a live venue? I could think of a pc that has a program that plays back a TAS run. Many of these people bring their own devices right? A Raspberry PI set to load a program from the start would fit it any type of vg console case except maybe things like the DS. When you press start or whatever it would start the game on the timer start, and then from then on it would wait for another start input then just display the normal "start" screen whatever that is, and continue the playthrough when you press that "start" button. There would probably need to be some video/audio converter built in since those output I think in hdmi, but certainly not vga or that nes style coaxial or whatever that was. So while the bar is a little higher to cheat while "doing it live" it is perfectly possible to cheat.

Quote from ShikenNuggets:

Quote:

So...why not just have another category?

Literally the next sentence in my post was

Quote:

For a lot of games there's no point in having a segmented leaderboard since segmented runs are pretty rare these days

On games I moderate we try to avoid making any categories unless at least two people actually run them, and the games I moderate are fairly small. I imagine larger games have higher bars for adding new categories. There may be some cases where it is actually prejudice against segmented runs, but most of the time I think it's just business as usual.

Of course if you do not accept segmented then there won't be any competition. Convenient!

I agree, segmented runs are more rare so it is not like most games need the category. Just arguing for the case of accepting them. Down the line someone else could very well submit another segmented run.

[quote="Melodia"]
I wasn't saying segmented runners aren't skilled, just that they aren't nessesarily the MOST skilled. That is to say, someone who may not be in the top 10 in RTA still could get the best segmented run for a lot of games.

And one other thing I think might be in consideration -- since people don't usually stream segmented runs they may lose a bit of the potential validity issue there. Do remember there have and are instances of people cheating.,...without the verification of "it was done live" that's much higher. I think that could easily make a big block against them in a lot of peoples' mind, even if they don't even realize it.[/quote]
Yes I agree with you.  If you can do a rta you can do segmented.

Segmented runs they are verified the same as single segmented.  Make sure that the same state is continuous, meaning make sure they do not suddenly have 10 bombs instead of the 0 they had before.  No sudden skips like missing screens or such.

Playing live may seem to the viewer as more reliable, but is it really? As a test I could probably make a "this was done" live and cheat without anyone being the wiser.  The way to do that would be to start a pre-recording of a good run, and then "play along".  Any issues I can just crop up to audio/video desync , maybe even simulate some issues in there like poor audio quality or dropped frames to make it harder to detect any clip combining.  However if I did it with tools like a TAS no one would be the wiser.  The only way people would be able to tell at that point would be if there are actual render or game differences between the game and emulator.  At this point there are few games that have differences like that especially for older games.  Seeing as how TAS runs can be replayed on actual hardware.  Similarly to how that cheater of Donkey Kong was caught out at Twin Galaxies where he used MAME instead of an actual arcade machine, one of that person's many cheats.  Or if you were doing it in a live venue.

If you want to get really paranoid how are you sure that what you are watching is what they are actually playing even in a live venue?  I could think of a pc that has a program that plays back a TAS run.  Many of these people bring their own devices right?  A Raspberry PI set to load a program from the start would fit it any type of vg console case except maybe things like the DS.  When you press start or whatever it would start the game on the timer start, and then from then on it would wait for another start input then just display the normal "start" screen whatever that is, and continue the playthrough when you press that "start" button.  There would probably need to be some video/audio converter built in since those output I think in hdmi, but certainly not vga or that nes style coaxial or whatever that was.  So while the bar is a little higher to cheat while "doing it live" it is perfectly possible to cheat.

[quote="ShikenNuggets"][quote]So...why not just have another category?[/quote]

Literally the next sentence in my post was
[quote]For a lot of games there's no point in having a segmented leaderboard since segmented runs are pretty rare these days[/quote]

On games I moderate we try to avoid making any categories unless at least two people actually run them, and the games I moderate are fairly small. I imagine larger games have higher bars for adding new categories. There may be some cases where it is actually prejudice against segmented runs, but most of the time I think it's just business as usual.[/quote]
Of course if you do not accept segmented then there won't be any competition. Convenient!

I agree, segmented runs are more rare so it is not like most games need the category.   Just arguing for the case of accepting them.  Down the line someone else could very well submit another segmented run.

Drakodan

2018-11-05 10:23:57 am

Segmented runs have definitely 'gone out of fashion' in a sense, but I definitely think there's still a place for them in speedrunning. When you look at how many people are working on "Human Theory TAS" speedruns, that's driving at the same sort of idea; a demonstration of what an ideal run would look like with all feasible human strats, just done in a single segment. The landscape has kind of changed in that sense but I still find the idea of making a really optimised segmented run very fascinating, and intend to do one myself in the future.

As for why people have moved away from it, I think it's largely due to the advent of streaming. When I say the landscape has changed, this is the biggest way in which it has; if you want to watch speedruns nowadays, you go to someone's Twitch livestream and watch them grind attempts. Very few people who are watching live speedrun attempts want to watch someone try to optimise a small segment repeatedly.

As for whether leaderboards should offer segmented categories, I guess it depends on the game and whether there's competition for it. The only game I moderate that explicitly has a category for segmented runs is Grandia, and it makes perfect sense for that game as it's a >10 hour JRPG, the type that's ripe for segmented running. Personally I don't think it does much harm to offer the option, though.

Segmented runs have definitely 'gone out of fashion' in a sense, but I definitely think there's still a place for them in speedrunning. When you look at how many people are working on "Human Theory TAS" speedruns, that's driving at the same sort of idea; a demonstration of what an ideal run would look like with all feasible human strats, just done in a single segment. The landscape has kind of changed in that sense but I still find the idea of making a really optimised segmented run very fascinating, and intend to do one myself in the future.

As for why people have moved away from it, I think it's largely due to the advent of streaming. When I say the landscape has changed, this is the biggest way in which it has; if you want to watch speedruns nowadays, you go to someone's Twitch livestream and watch them grind attempts. Very few people who are watching live speedrun attempts want to watch someone try to optimise a small segment repeatedly.

As for whether leaderboards should offer segmented categories, I guess it depends on the game and whether there's competition for it. The only game I moderate that explicitly has a category for segmented runs is Grandia, and it makes perfect sense for that game as it's a >10 hour JRPG, the type that's ripe for segmented running. Personally I don't think it does much harm to offer the option, though.

ShikenNuggets

2018-11-06 01:14:22 am

Quote from burningsteel:

Down the line someone else could very well submit another segmented run

Well sure, but you could say the same thing about a hilarious meme category I made up and did a run of just for fun, doesn't mean it's a good idea to clutter the leaderboards with it.

Worn_Traveler

2018-11-06 08:13:00 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

My favorite run I saw last year was the segmented Grandia run that was published here.

Anyways, at either AGDQ 2013 or 2014 (or was it 15) I had a discussion with several runners about speedrunning communities and when we had gotten into speedrunning. It was sort of generational. I became interested in speedrunning in 2006, which was prior to streaming and races. Segmented runs were common then. One of the men I was talking to had joined the scene right at the cusp of the advent of streaming, where segmented runs were still common but there was an emphasis on RTA due to the rapidly increasing format of SRL, streaming, and GDQ. The other male had gotten involved after races, streaming, and going for the WR had become the overwhelming interests in the community. I believe that the later that people have gotten into speedrunning, that they have less interest and knowledge about segmented runs, or why segmented runs should exist in the first place (and I believe there is a place for them).

I'd love to see more segmented runs but I'm not sure how to drum up motivation for them. Perhaps segmented runs only are viable in certain RPG communities or for SDA. If you would have asked me in late 2012 or early 2013 that someone could 100% one of the 3D GTA games in one sitting, I would have not believed you but it happened (and this was prior to duping and replay teleporting). I bring this up because it seems that the optimization that used to go into segmented runs has gone into single segment and RTA, or at least it appears that way. The best way I can think to "revive" segmented runs is to make more of those for the communities that accept them (or for SDA purposes, which may or may not then involve said communities).

My favorite run I saw last year was the segmented Grandia run that was published here.

Anyways, at either AGDQ 2013 or 2014 (or was it 15) I had a discussion with several runners about speedrunning communities and when we had gotten into speedrunning. It was sort of generational. I became interested in speedrunning in 2006, which was prior to streaming and races. Segmented runs were common then. One of the men I was talking to had joined the scene right at the cusp of the advent of streaming, where segmented runs were still common but there was an emphasis on RTA due to the rapidly increasing format of SRL, streaming, and GDQ. The other male had gotten involved after races, streaming, and going for the WR had become the overwhelming interests in the community. I believe that the later that people have gotten into speedrunning, that they have less interest and knowledge about segmented runs, or why segmented runs should exist in the first place (and I believe there is a place for them).

I'd love to see more segmented runs but I'm not sure how to drum up motivation for them. Perhaps segmented runs only are viable in certain RPG communities or for SDA. If you would have asked me in late 2012 or early 2013 that someone could 100% one of the 3D GTA games in one sitting, I would have not believed you but it happened (and this was prior to duping and replay teleporting). I bring this up because it seems that the optimization that used to go into segmented runs has gone into single segment and RTA, or at least it appears that way. The best way I can think to "revive" segmented runs is to make more of those for the communities that accept them (or for SDA purposes, which may or may not then involve said communities).

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-11-10 10:25:20 am

2018-11-10 10:23:43 am

Quote from Quivico:

Segments help take care of RNG, but the ideal of single-segment is that it can be considered "normal"

Well if you read my post well, you would have noticed that there's an argument for a segmented run being every bit as "normal" (in the sense that it's a very natural way to play games) as single-segment and that it's actually not really normal to play the game through in a single sitting unless it's fairly short or if saving is simply not an option. It's surely less normal for an average player to not make use of saving if it exists. Then there's the question of really long runs: is it "normal" to sit down for long enough to finish one of those JRPG in one go?

You could argue for a kind of in-between form where you're allowed to take breaks and come back the next day. This would exist if it wasn't far more difficult to verify it wasn't cheated, hence allowing the runner to redo segments at will, hence we go back to segmented speedrunning as we know it, I suppose.

Also you should realize in the history of gaming, there have certainly been games that more or less required a ton of retries from the last save file or checkpoint. It was expected just as it was expected that you finish some other games in one go. So I guess you could say running Wizardry segmented is some kind of default for that game whereas games with no ability to restore at all would be... well obviously can't even be run that way.

So while it CAN be more familiar, as you say, to keep playing even after mistakes, it depends on what games you grew up with... and also what you've seen others doing and what, in your mind, a speedrun even is as a result. Hence we go back to the marathons/visibility argument.

I don't know if I agree that it's inherently easier to SS a game than segmented: if the segments are short, you specifically don't even need so much time to get a few attempts in.

"Not that elsewhere exists..." I don't know if this is you not realizing what SDA is or if you're discarding it as an alternative for whatever reasons.

There's a further argument for segmented runs that I didn't mention (there's a bunch of stuff I didn't mention): because in order to properly test and learn your game, you'll always want to make use of saving and redoing parts anyway if possible, you're already close to segmented speedrunning by that virtue.

Quote from burningsteel:

. I'll paraphrase you to keep this short:

"Different camps can learn from each other, TASers, SS and segmented runners." Well I suppose that any runner, whether SS or segmented-oriented, can find the same stuff using real-time methods. And if someone is around who knows how to TAS, read memory, etc. that work doesn't have to necessarily go towards just TASing. So I don't know why from this point of view you specifically need someone to do segmented runs.

However, it is probably true that a segmented runner is more likely to do that kind of thorough testing. And of course many times a segmented run will look different from either a TAS or SS run, in the best-case scenario. This would be true whenever save/load inconsistencies exist that allow abusing on a small scale so it's only worth doing when the save/load process is untimed. Then there's currently un-TASeable games.

"You can't be sure if a streamed run isn't cheated": Well, cheating when you're actually showing your input device the whole time (a common practice) is far more trouble than you seem to be thinking. I suppose if there's a live audio commentary, this further helps to convince others of the authenticity. For the record, such cheating has been done before in exactly the way you described, with the player pretending like they're playing, but it's not common.

In fact, ironically, the stream might be a reason why you would feel incentivized to cheat in the first place. Just submitting runs here or elsewhere doesn't tend to result in donations I'm sure. Then again, if you're streaming and interacting with a chat, that at least proves what you broadcast was in fact a live feed even if the run itself was a replay. Hmm...

"I like segmented RPG runs more" Yeah, it answers a completely different question.

"SS running is more forgiving" This is true in a sense. On the other hand on SDA for instance we judge a run against the "expected difficulty" whether it's SS or segmented. The segments count determines the threshold for error but doesn't remove it. I suppose there's not really such a thing as a "casual segmented run" because the whole idea of segmenting seems to exist for optimizing and being a pro about it, so there's that.

Just in general, segmented runs I feel were never meant as a competitive category. That's just a big waste of time for all participants when you could be collaborating unlike with RTA runs. Thus it's understandable that sites focused on competition wouldn't necessarily have them. But that's just another reason why SDA is here...

Quote from Worn_Traveler:

It's generational

This much is a given I suppose.

[quote=Quivico]Segments help take care of RNG, but the ideal of single-segment is that it can be considered "normal"[/quote] Well if you read my post well, you would have noticed that there's an argument for a segmented run being every bit as "normal" (in the sense that it's a very natural way to play games) as single-segment and that it's actually not really normal to play the game through in a single sitting unless it's fairly short or if saving is simply not an option. It's surely less normal for an average player to not make use of saving if it exists. Then there's the question of really long runs: is it "normal" to sit down for long enough to finish one of those JRPG in one go?

You could argue for a kind of in-between form where you're allowed to take breaks and come back the next day. This would exist if it wasn't far more difficult to verify it wasn't cheated, hence allowing the runner to redo segments at will, hence we go back to segmented speedrunning as we know it, I suppose.

Also you should realize in the history of gaming, there have certainly been games that more or less required a ton of retries from the last save file or checkpoint. It was expected just as it was expected that you finish some other games in one go. So I guess you could say running Wizardry segmented is some kind of default for that game whereas games with no ability to restore at all would be... well obviously can't even be run that way.

So while it CAN be more familiar, as you say, to keep playing even after mistakes, it depends on what games you grew up with... and also what you've seen others doing and what, in your mind, a speedrun even is as a result. Hence we go back to the marathons/visibility argument.

I don't know if I agree that it's inherently easier to SS a game than segmented: if the segments are short, you specifically don't even need so much time to get a few attempts in.

"Not that elsewhere exists..." I don't know if this is you not realizing what SDA is or if you're discarding it as an alternative for whatever reasons.

There's a further argument for segmented runs that I didn't mention (there's a bunch of stuff I didn't mention): because in order to properly test and learn your game, you'll always want to make use of saving and redoing parts anyway if possible, you're already close to segmented speedrunning by that virtue.

[quote=burningsteel][/quote]. I'll paraphrase you to keep this short:

"Different camps can learn from each other, TASers, SS and segmented runners." Well I suppose that any runner, whether SS or segmented-oriented, can find the same stuff using real-time methods. And if someone is around who knows how to TAS, read memory, etc. that work doesn't have to necessarily go towards just TASing. So I don't know why from this point of view you specifically need someone to do segmented runs.

However, it is probably true that a segmented runner is more likely to do that kind of thorough testing. And of course many times a segmented run will look different from either a TAS or SS run, in the best-case scenario. This would be true whenever save/load inconsistencies exist that allow abusing on a small scale so it's only worth doing when the save/load process is untimed. Then there's currently un-TASeable games.

"You can't be sure if a streamed run isn't cheated": Well, cheating when you're actually showing your input device the whole time (a common practice) is far more trouble than you seem to be thinking. I suppose if there's a live audio commentary, this further helps to convince others of the authenticity. For the record, such cheating has been done before in exactly the way you described, with the player pretending like they're playing, but it's not common.

In fact, ironically, the stream might be a reason why you would feel incentivized to cheat in the first place. Just submitting runs here or elsewhere doesn't tend to result in donations I'm sure. Then again, if you're streaming and interacting with a chat, that at least proves what you broadcast was in fact a live feed even if the run itself was a replay. Hmm...

"I like segmented RPG runs more" Yeah, it answers a completely different question.

"SS running is more forgiving" This is true in a sense. On the other hand on SDA for instance we judge a run against the "expected difficulty" whether it's SS or segmented. The segments count determines the threshold for error but doesn't remove it. I suppose there's not really such a thing as a "casual segmented run" because the whole idea of segmenting seems to exist for optimizing and being a pro about it, so there's that.

Just in general, segmented runs I feel were never meant as a competitive category. That's just a big waste of time for all participants when you could be collaborating unlike with RTA runs. Thus it's understandable that sites focused on competition wouldn't necessarily have them. But that's just another reason why SDA is here...

[quote=Worn_Traveler]It's generational[/quote] This much is a given I suppose.

KennyMan666

Edit history:

KennyMan666: 2018-11-13 08:19:50 am

KennyMan666: 2018-11-13 02:05:55 am

KennyMan666: 2018-11-12 11:06:16 am

KennyMan666: 2018-11-12 11:05:54 am

KennyMan666: 2018-11-12 10:57:53 am

2018-11-12 10:57:09 am

Precursor

I think another reason also might be how the entire paradigm of saving your game has changed. These days, the standard is checkpoints, autosaves, stuff like that. In the release trailer for the recent retro-throwback FPS Project Warlock, they include lack of auto-saves as a selling point. Sure, there's some other games with distinct save points that work like they used to, but you can't deny that "saving your game" doesn't mean the same thing anymore. Even when save points are a thing, there's often a bunch of stuff that gets auto-saved anyway, and you can't go back to your previous save in a way that actually resets your progress without mucking about a bunch.

Take Hollow Knight as an example. It has save points - the benches. When you sit on a bench, your game gets saved, some things update. If you quit your game, you get sent back to the bench, but the game also saves when you quit, so things you did are still done (in as much as it applies). When you die, you get sent back to the bench, and the game saves for you, and your money is lost and you have to recover it from your shade where you died. Even though it's got save points, if you want to do a segmented run in Hollow Knight on PC, you have to do the following:

1. Start the game and start recording.
2. Start a new game.
3. Play up until the bench where you want to end the segment.
4. Save your game and stop recording.
5. Return to the title screen (we presume that all segments have to start with loading the save file).
6. Quit the game entirely, or just alt-tab out of it.
7. Find the save file and make a backup of it in another folder.
8. Get back to the title screen and start recording.
9. Load your save.
10. Play your next segment. If it went well and you want to keep it, go back to step 4. If you fucked up and want to redo it, stop recording and continue to step 11.
11. Quit the game.
12. Overwrite the save file in the game's save folder with your backup from step 7.
13. Launch the game and start recording.
14. Go back to step 9.

People aren't going to bother with all that. And this is assuming you play it on the computer where you actually have access to the files - if you're playing the console version, lol just forget it (I mean, I assume you can do it with hacking, but anyway). To be fair, I'm sure there's some games where you can prevent an autosave upon death or whatever by terminating the game or something of the sort first, but anyway. As a counterexample, consider Super Metroid (or Symphony of the Night, or whatever):

1. Start the game and start recording.
2. Start a new game.
3. Play up until the save room where you want to end the segment.
4. Save your game and stop recording.
5. Return to the title screen.
6. Start recording and load your save.
7. Play your next segment. If it went well and you want to keep it, go back to step 4. If you fucked up and want to redo it, stop recording and go back to step 5.

There's simply a large subset of games where you can't do segmented runs. Sometimes you can, but it's a massive bother since you have to restore save files manually, so you won't be able to do that on every system anyway. So single-segment becomes a standard entirely by necessity - if you want to speedrun the game, here's your one option. If you're in luck, there's a level select, but that tends to lead to individual level runs, not segmented. So you get used to that. And think like that even when approaching games where you actually can run segmented, but running segmented just isn't something you're considering.

And let's be honest - segmented runs should really, from the starts, have been split into at least two different categories. Those with save points, and those where you can just quicksave/quickload anywhere. And then there's a further split, games where you can savewarp and those were you can't. Whereas the concept of single-segment runs is something's that comparable across games - you do everything in one go, even if that includes savewarps, resets, stuff like that. Segmented depends extremely heavily on what the game is, and what the game even lets you do with regards to saving/loading your game. Of course, there are different categories and stuff for single-segment runs and individual rules for games regarding savewarping and stuff like that, but the idea remains the same - start the timer when you start the game and stop it when you beat it.

There's a lot of shared blame for why segmented runs just aren't that big of a thing any more. Marathons. Livestreaming. Speedrun.com leaderboards. Single-segment being a kind of a one size fits all concept for running games. The games themselves not providing any meaningful way to actually do a segmented full-game run under the "traditional" rules for segmented runs.

So that's where we are today. Single-segment heavily dominates, and in second place comes single-segment runs of individual levels. I don't run anything segmented myself, though I have a few games where I can and where it could work, but... I can't tell you why, but I don't feel a major incentive to do so. It can also have to do with the games I run, by far the longest one has a run of under 1h30m.

I don't know if there's any "solution" to this. I don't know if it's a problem that needs solving, and it's not purely in the hands of the speedrunners either. Speedrunning has seen a paradigm shift towards single segment runs - and video games have seen a paradigm shift with regards to saving that makes single-segment the only meaningful way to run a lot of games. I don't think there's any going back for either of those two.

I think another reason also might be how the entire paradigm of [i]saving your game[/i] has changed. These days, the standard is checkpoints, autosaves, stuff like that. In the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf77Zql2ZVM]release trailer[/url] for the recent retro-throwback FPS Project Warlock, they include lack of auto-saves as a [i]selling point[/i]. Sure, there's some other games with distinct save points that work like they used to, but you can't deny that "saving your game" doesn't mean the same thing anymore. Even when save points [i]are[/i] a thing, there's often a bunch of stuff that gets auto-saved anyway, and you [i]can't[/i] go back to your previous save in a way that actually resets your progress without mucking about a bunch.

Take Hollow Knight as an example. It has save points - the benches. When you sit on a bench, your game gets saved, some things update. If you quit your game, you get sent back to the bench, but the game also [i]saves when you quit[/i], so things you did are still done (in as much as it applies). When you die, you get sent back to the bench, and the game saves for you, and your money is lost and you have to recover it from your shade where you died. Even though it's got save points, if you want to do a segmented run in Hollow Knight on PC, you have to do the following:

1. Start the game and start recording.
2. Start a new game.
3. Play up until the bench where you want to end the segment.
4. Save your game and stop recording.
5. Return to the title screen (we presume that all segments have to start with loading the save file).
6. Quit the game entirely, or just alt-tab out of it.
7. Find the save file and make a backup of it in another folder.
8. Get back to the title screen and start recording.
9. Load your save.
10. Play your next segment. If it went well and you want to keep it, go back to step 4. If you fucked up and want to redo it, stop recording and continue to step 11.
11. Quit the game.
12. Overwrite the save file in the game's save folder with your backup from step 7.
13. Launch the game and start recording.
14. Go back to step 9.

People aren't going to bother with all that. And this is assuming you play it on the computer where you actually have access to the files - if you're playing the console version, lol just forget it (I mean, I assume you can do it with hacking, but anyway). To be fair, I'm sure there's some games where you can prevent an autosave upon death or whatever by terminating the game or something of the sort first, but anyway. As a counterexample, consider Super Metroid (or Symphony of the Night, or whatever):

1. Start the game and start recording.
2. Start a new game.
3. Play up until the save room where you want to end the segment.
4. Save your game and stop recording.
5. Return to the title screen.
6. Start recording and load your save.
7. Play your next segment. If it went well and you want to keep it, go back to step 4. If you fucked up and want to redo it, stop recording and go back to step 5.

There's simply a large subset of games where you [i]can't[/i] do segmented runs. Sometimes you [i]can[/i], but it's a massive bother since you have to restore save files manually, so you won't be able to do that on every system anyway. So single-segment becomes a standard entirely [i]by necessity[/i] - if you want to speedrun the game, here's your one option. If you're in luck, there's a level select, but that tends to lead to individual level runs, not segmented. So you get used to that. And think like that even when approaching games where you actually [i]can[/i] run segmented, but running segmented just isn't something you're considering.

And let's be honest - segmented runs should really, from the starts, have been split into at least two different categories. Those with save points, and those where you can just quicksave/quickload anywhere. And then there's a further split, games where you can savewarp and those were you can't. Whereas the [i]concept[/i] of single-segment runs is something's that comparable across games - you do everything in one go, even if that includes savewarps, resets, stuff like that. Segmented depends extremely heavily on what the game is, and what the game even lets you [i]do[/i] with regards to saving/loading your game. Of course, there are different categories and stuff for single-segment runs and individual rules for games regarding savewarping and stuff like that, but the idea remains the same - start the timer when you start the game and stop it when you beat it.

There's a lot of shared blame for why segmented runs just aren't that big of a thing any more. Marathons. Livestreaming. Speedrun.com leaderboards. Single-segment being a kind of a one size fits all concept for running games. The [i]games themselves[/i] not providing any meaningful way to actually do a segmented full-game run under the "traditional" rules for segmented runs.

So that's where we are today. Single-segment heavily dominates, and in second place comes single-segment runs of individual levels. I don't run anything segmented myself, though I have a few games where I can and where it could work, but... I can't tell you why, but I don't feel a major incentive to do so. It can also have to do with the games I run, by far the longest one has a run of under 1h30m.

I don't know if there's any "solution" to this. I don't know if it's a problem that [i]needs[/i] solving, and it's not purely in the hands of the speedrunners either. Speedrunning has seen a paradigm shift towards single segment runs - and video games have seen a paradigm shift with regards to saving that makes single-segment the only meaningful way to run a lot of games. I don't think there's any going back for either of those two.

LotBlind

2018-11-16 04:36:01 am

Yes, that's essentially save scumming isn't it? I get your point about it being a small extra hassle to copy-paste the files every time.

I think perhaps it's technically easier to do checkpoints. Underworld: Ascendant, which just launched, doesn't have a save-anywhere system because they couldn't get it to work right apparently.

Still, if you think it's a trend in game design to forego save-anywhere, on the PC that is (surely consoles were generally always like that?), I'll take your word for it. Don't play enough newer games to be able to tell.

Why do you think segmented runs should have been split into save-anywhere and checkpoints-only if both exist? Doesn't that make for tautology? Also do you mean there's a question of whether potential save warping should be allowed for a given game or what? I don't really see it ambiguating the concept of segmented runs if the saving isn't quite robust in that sense. In fact, doesn't it remind you of death warps, which are a thing regardless of segmentation?

Single-segment runs also have RTA vs IGT. I recently saw some guys go RTA for stupid reasons in a game that has accurate IGT. Point being there's at least a bit of ambiguity which to choose in SS as well, if not both.

Yes, that's essentially save scumming isn't it? I get your point about it being a small extra hassle to copy-paste the files every time.

I think perhaps it's technically easier to do checkpoints. Underworld: Ascendant, which just launched, doesn't have a save-anywhere system because they couldn't get it to work right apparently.

Still, if you think it's a trend in game design to forego save-anywhere, on the PC that is (surely consoles were generally always like that?), I'll take your word for it. Don't play enough newer games to be able to tell.

Why do you think segmented runs should have been split into save-anywhere and checkpoints-only if both exist? Doesn't that make for tautology? Also do you mean there's a question of whether potential save warping should be allowed for a given game or what? I don't really see it ambiguating the concept of segmented runs if the saving isn't quite robust in that sense. In fact, doesn't it remind you of death warps, which are a thing regardless of segmentation?

Single-segment runs also have RTA vs IGT. I recently saw some guys go RTA for stupid reasons in a game that has accurate IGT. Point being there's at least a bit of ambiguity which to choose in SS as well, if not both.

reality

Edit history:

reality: 2018-11-16 11:54:31 am

2018-11-16 11:52:40 am

Nostalgia Kills

I think segmented runs are kind of in an awkward place..

A few games have like, naturally segregated levels - most things with level select screens or missions that take place on independent maps. These games kind of naturally suggest playing as ILs (especially if it's something like an RTS, racing game or short platformer with an automated in-game time trial leaderboard.

But the majority of games do not provide that cleanness, even games that have an accept quest>perform quest structure... as you are always in the "instance" o the full game. And if they start to provide that cleaness, then the natural development of the speed community wil just skip the segmented runs in prefernece of going straight to IL categories.

Now I did like reading through the comments of several segmented runs on this site back in the day, but I have to say that the "might as well have been a TAS" mentality kind of rears its head when I watch them nowadays... If you using the segment for RNG, then you will probably be encouraged to have IL-like quaility and performance in a non-IL game. The thing about this is that that is immensely tiring to get every save-point to save-point segment perfect.

I think that the non-RPG context of segmented runs is kind of problematic, you could conceive of it being used in say,open world sandbox games, but I think that other than resting the runner, it's simply to hard to tell if you are really getting better procederual generatio RNG when it comes to GTA traffic or Far Cry enemy patrol pathing, and loading to redo segments feels like its only changing based on your own performance. Very different from the concrete results of a segmented RPG that relies on low percent instant death spells, crits, or rare drops.... each of the splits has a very specific purpose and objective, instead of being just an execution buffer that is approximately the same as you would do non-segmented.

Also one thing about streaming, is that people using livesplit and similiar applications have a sum-of-best and visual indications of their best splits, which kind of implies what they could do as a segmented run, but is unnecesary to follow up on as in their context it would be a side-category... I think that that segmented runs were always more about "presentation" than carving their own niche, which is as much why people don't seek it out as anything else.

I think segmented runs are kind of in an awkward place..

A few games have like, naturally segregated levels - most things with level select screens or missions that take place on independent maps. These games kind of naturally suggest playing as ILs (especially if it's something like an RTS, racing game or short platformer with an automated in-game time trial leaderboard.

But the majority of games do not provide that cleanness, even games that have an accept quest>perform quest structure... as you are always in the "instance" o the full game.  And if they start to provide that cleaness, then the natural development of the speed community wil just skip the segmented runs in prefernece of going straight to IL categories.

Now I did like reading through the comments of several segmented runs on this site back in the day, but I have to say that the "might as well have been a TAS" mentality kind of rears its head when I watch them nowadays... If you using the segment for RNG, then you will probably be encouraged to have IL-like quaility and performance in a non-IL game. The thing about this is that that is immensely tiring to get every save-point to save-point segment perfect.

I think that the non-RPG context of segmented runs is kind of problematic, you could conceive of it being used in say,open world sandbox games, but I think that other than resting the runner, it's simply to hard to tell if you are really getting better procederual generatio RNG when it comes to GTA traffic or Far Cry enemy patrol pathing, and loading to redo segments feels like its only changing based on your own performance. Very different from the concrete results of a segmented RPG that relies on low percent instant death spells, crits, or rare drops.... each of the splits has a very specific purpose and objective, instead of being just an execution buffer that is approximately the same as you would do non-segmented.

Also one thing about streaming, is that people using livesplit and similiar applications have a sum-of-best and visual indications of their best splits, which kind of implies what they could do as a segmented run, but is unnecesary to follow up on as in their context it would be a side-category... I think that that segmented runs were always more about "presentation" than carving their own niche, which is as much why people don't seek it out as anything else.

LotBlind

2018-11-18 09:22:17 am

In some cases there's a big difference between both SS and segmented and segmented and TAS. Obviously segmented runs stand somewhere in the middle most of the time (though the game I'm running now has a faster segmented run than a TAS could be probably).

I don't quite get what you mean by saying "going straight to IL categories". Perhaps you can illustrate that somehow? When I think about that, it's often pretty clear which one fits the game better, and in some cases you could argue for having both. Furthermore, if you have both, it mostly implies the segmented runs are faster (unless they have incomparable starting states), thus the question is why the ILs, not the other way around. ILs are more handy when available, of course.

TASing doesn't extend to most Windows games or even all DOS games currently (or perhaps ever) so for someone interested in those, it's not even an option.

"is immensely tiring to get every save-point to save-point segment perfect. "

I guess you're speaking for yourself there? Of course it's expected the quality is "IL-like", what would the point be otherwise?

I'm not really familiar with too many open-world games but I see your point: subtle RNG manipulation and movement optimization is less obvious than drastically different strategies. I think it just is whatever it happens to be.

The last point you're making... I don't know, because why was it so relatively popular at one point then if it didn't have a real "niche"? Those gold split sums don't show you what segmented strats would actually look like if they differ from SS strats at all. I think you underestimate by how much they can differ even though you brought up RPGs yourself.

In some cases there's a big difference between both SS and segmented and segmented and TAS. Obviously segmented runs stand somewhere in the middle most of the time (though the game I'm running now has a faster segmented run than a TAS could be probably).

I don't quite get what you mean by saying "going straight to IL categories". Perhaps you can illustrate that somehow? When I think about that, it's often pretty clear which one fits the game better, and in some cases you could argue for having both. Furthermore, if you have both, it mostly implies the segmented runs are faster (unless they have incomparable starting states), thus the question is why the ILs, not the other way around. ILs are more handy when available, of course.

TASing doesn't extend to most Windows games or even all DOS games currently (or perhaps ever) so for someone interested in those, it's not even an option.

"is immensely tiring to get every save-point to save-point segment perfect. "

I guess you're speaking for yourself there? Of course it's expected the quality is "IL-like", what would the point be otherwise?

I'm not really familiar with too many open-world games but I see your point: subtle RNG manipulation and movement optimization is less obvious than drastically different strategies. I think it just is whatever it happens to be.

The last point you're making... I don't know, because why was it so relatively popular at one point then if it didn't have a real "niche"? Those gold split sums don't show you what segmented strats would actually look like if they differ from SS strats at all. I think you underestimate by how much they can differ even though you brought up RPGs yourself.

Remz

2018-11-21 04:50:59 pm

Segmented runs are pretty much “sum of best”, you don’t really need to put your gold splits together to get a time.

reality

Edit history:

reality: 2018-12-03 09:22:36 am

2018-12-03 09:22:01 am

Nostalgia Kills

Funnily enough, I ended up doing a segmented run of Kid Mystic recently.

I saw the purpose of the run as helping to develop the single segment strats, but in the process, I did a couple of things that would not translate into single segment.. I did no-grind variations of a very stat oriented game, and sometimes I did things like this.

https://streamable.com/z1mri

Now, a devil's advocate could argue that single segment (S+L allowed) this strategy serves a purpose and might be worth going for despite the time loss of including death or two in a run, but single segment, could go for a much, much safer, and still fast 1:40 clear of the level, reather than going for the 1:20 and including what would likely be at least half a minute, likely 2+ minutes, of resets trying to get the random enemy movement to line up right.

I think in the process of segmenting, I never really felt the desire to publish the segmented route as a "presented" speedrun. I see it solely as a resource for the single segment, and while there are a lot of novelties that apply only to the segmented (and it's test variations) and as a whole it finishes in what is likely to be 15-25 minutes faster than even a deathless single segmeent.... I still do not really think it has a life of its own worthy of being presented as with IL or with single segment - it exists to support them only.

Funnily enough, I ended up doing a segmented run of Kid Mystic recently.

I saw the purpose of the run as helping to develop the single segment strats, but in the process, I did a couple of things that would not translate into single segment.. I did no-grind variations of a very stat oriented game, and sometimes I did things like this.

https://streamable.com/z1mri

Now, a devil's advocate could  argue that single segment (S+L allowed) this strategy serves a purpose and might be worth going for despite the time loss of including death or two in a run, but single segment, could go for a much, much safer, and still fast 1:40 clear of the level, reather than going for the 1:20 and including what would likely be at least half a minute, likely 2+ minutes, of resets trying to get the random enemy movement to line up right.

I think in the process of segmenting, I never really felt the desire to publish the segmented route as a "presented" speedrun. I see it solely as a resource for the single segment, and while there are a lot of novelties that apply only to the segmented (and it's test variations) and as a whole it finishes in what is likely to be 15-25 minutes faster than even a deathless single segmeent.... I still do not really think it has a life of its own worthy of being presented as with IL or with single segment - it exists to support them only.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2018-12-03 01:42:51 pm

2018-12-03 01:42:17 pm

For me it's the opposite, and basically every TASer thinks this way too: we don't really care what you can or cannot do in single-segment. Perhaps such a run would have an audience even if you don't see yourself belonging to it.

EDIT: Of course it would.