Secret of Mana

2014-08-03 10:38:39 am

INTJ

You lose less time if you go for the one-cycle on the Mana Beast

It's definitely quite nice if you can get two hits in on Buffy for certain, and have him on the ground where he has a lowered chance to ascend again. I'll take that manipulation over "just going for it" anytime. On average in runs it should turn out to be faster in any case. Once I get confident enough running through the fortress I'll also lose less time overall. I agree, that it is probably not necessary now, but in the near future you'll want to gain that time Wink

http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/c/4811265

doicm

2014-08-03 01:19:16 pm

Kinda going off on a tangent here, but for someone who has been semi-following this game and this thread as well, and for someone who views these forums at what I think is the default 25 posts per page, congratulations on over 50 pages of posts! Keep up the good discussions and work on this game, as you all have certainly put a ton of work into it!

That is all.

Yagamoth

2014-08-11 06:46:55 am

INTJ

Thank you oô

While comparing our two runs, Stinger, I'm going to write down some notes, as to when we probably want to implement the use of multiple controllers to gain a few easy seconds in 1p2c:
- First eyeball in the witchs forest, Moving to the exit with the second controller while pushing the switch with the other one should be easy
- (we do this already) Talking to Elinee and moving over to the chests after beating Spiky Tiger
..
..
..
To be continued when I'm not at work anymore Tongue

Here are some if you can move two characters at once easily:
- Double eyeball in the castle, have one character go to the left earlier
- Actually.. A lot of places might be a lot easier if we learned to walk two characters at once.. Like, getting up to the rope pole after Spiky Tiger with the Sprite alone while not getting hit with the rest of the cast
..
..
..
TBC

Also on a entirely separate note.. I think we both have around 60 seconds of actual mistakes in the first 30 minutes of the run, which should be avoidable if we simply played more :P.. I'm really surprised, that I'm ahead at the Spiky Tiger..

Thank you oô

While comparing our two runs, Stinger, I'm going to write down some notes, as to when we probably want to implement the use of multiple controllers to gain a few easy seconds in 1p2c:
- First eyeball in the witchs forest, Moving to the exit with the second controller while pushing the switch with the other one should be easy
- (we do this already) Talking to Elinee and moving over to the chests after beating Spiky Tiger
..
..
..
To be continued when I'm not at work anymore :P

Here are some if you can move two characters at once easily:
- Double eyeball in the castle, have one character go to the left earlier
- Actually.. A lot of places might be a lot easier if we learned to walk two characters at once.. Like, getting up to the rope pole after Spiky Tiger with the Sprite alone while not getting hit with the rest of the cast
..
..
..
TBC

Also on a entirely separate note.. I think we both have around 60 seconds of actual mistakes in the first 30 minutes of the run, which should be avoidable if we simply played more :P.. I'm really surprised, that I'm ahead at the Spiky Tiger..

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-08-12 01:44:56 am

Yagamoth: 2014-08-12 01:16:24 am

2014-08-12 01:14:17 am

INTJ

I just remembered something..

When testing yesterday, what causes you to be able to still move and act even though your hp is at 0, I figured out the following:
- Your HP has to be at 1
- You have to get hit by a spell, which does damage AND a status effect (I only know it works for Flame Wall, other spells would need to be tested)
-> This means, the initial impact of the spell kills you
-> Then it adds the status effect
-> Then it removes the status effect because you are at 0 HP
-> Then after about a second or so the game realizes, that you are dead and applies the proper "ghost" status effect

It's a far fetched thought, but: What if we have an invisible party member and then use that "not yet dead" glitch. Can we walk through walls?
^ I can't test that right now, but it would be interesting. Someone remind me today evening in case I didn't test it yet ^^

Edit:
Also, the thread I'm currentl reading (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657?page=2) reminded me of... Luigimeister mentioned, that he once shook a monster as if it was a chest, and then the game crashed. I wonder whether we could reproduce that somehow.. And maybe, if we find the correct monster get the Flammie Drum out of that monster chest? ^^..

Edit2:

Quote:

Vampire/Buffy's AI is for the most part, completely random. Only notable thing is if you stay above him while he's on the ground he'll have no options but to use his Jump Kick attack.

^ From the GameFaqs thread

That's actually quite useful to know, I didn't realize this up to now. All things considered, I prefer Buffy/Vampire to do the high-jump over flying, but since we can manipulate the grab, it's probably less than ideal if they jump. Plus, if you do armorless Mana Fortress, it can easily oneshot you if he decides to do that high-jump. So.. Avoid standing above them I guess

I just remembered something..

When testing yesterday, what causes you to be able to still move and act even though your hp is at 0, I figured out the following:
- Your HP has to be at 1
- You have to get hit by a spell, which does damage AND a status effect (I only know it works for Flame Wall, other spells would need to be tested)
-> This means, the initial impact of the spell kills you
-> Then it adds the status effect
-> Then it removes the status effect because you are at 0 HP
-> Then after about a second or so the game realizes, that you are dead and applies the proper "ghost" status effect

It's a far fetched thought, but: What if we have an invisible party member and then use that "not yet dead" glitch. Can we walk through walls?
^ I can't test that right now, but it would be interesting. Someone remind me today evening in case I didn't test it yet ^^

Edit:
Also, the thread I'm currentl reading (http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657?page=2) reminded me of... Luigimeister mentioned, that he once shook a monster as if it was a chest, and then the game crashed. I wonder whether we could reproduce that somehow.. And maybe, if we find the correct monster get the Flammie Drum out of that monster chest? ^^..

Edit2:
[quote]Vampire/Buffy's AI is for the most part, completely random. Only notable thing is if you stay above him while he's on the ground he'll have no options but to use his Jump Kick attack.[/quote]
^ From the GameFaqs thread

That's actually quite useful to know, I didn't realize this up to now. All things considered, I prefer Buffy/Vampire to do the high-jump over flying, but since we can manipulate the grab, it's probably less than ideal if they jump. Plus, if you do armorless Mana Fortress, it can easily oneshot you if he decides to do that high-jump. So.. Avoid standing above them I guess

Yagamoth

2014-08-13 02:50:58 am

INTJ

Ok, according to Regrs over at GameFAQ, the multiple armor stuff is created by trying to name the other characters multiple times. According to Silktail over at the GameFAQs thread, it's when you try to name the characters the same thing, which I'm sure all of us did at one point or another oô
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657?page=9#91

I wonder whether we can overflow the armors into the other slots ^^.. Too bad we can't trigger the initial naming event multiple times, then we wouldn't need to buy additional armor for trashing

I edited the SoM FAQ a bit yesterday btw.

StingerPA

2014-08-29 01:57:29 pm

I'm finally getting around to drilling every aspect of armorless mana fortress, and I think I've been wrong about something for a good year and couple months now. Casting Wall on Dread Slime doesn't actually waste any time other than the menus to get there, and that's only 3 seconds or so (weapon ring->magic ring->weapon ring). The reason it doesn't save time is because of Dread Slime's casting invulnerability when he does cast Acid Storm. He's invulnerable from the beginning of the animation until the very end when the targeted character returns to their normal coloration. This is the exact same for when a wall bounces the spell back onto Dread Slime. He's invulnerable from the beginning to the end of the animation, but once damage numbers pop up, you can stack damage on him just like normal, so no real time is lost. There's actually potential for killing him in one less hit due to the lowered defense from the Acid Storm, but that's pretty unlikely, assuming it's actually possible.

If you were to skip on the wall casts, the armorless strats would need to use a curative for every Acid Storm cast, and on average you'll end up using 2-3 curatives that may be in short supply by the end of the run, plus the menus needed would make up the few seconds lost due to casting wall.

tl;dr: I will be casting wall on all 3 characters in the Dread Slime fight now.

I'm finally getting around to drilling every aspect of armorless mana fortress, and I think I've been wrong about something for a good year and couple months now.  Casting Wall on Dread Slime doesn't actually waste any time other than the menus to get there, and that's only 3 seconds or so (weapon ring->magic ring->weapon ring).  The reason it doesn't save time is because of Dread Slime's casting invulnerability when he does cast Acid Storm. He's invulnerable from the beginning of the animation until the very end when the targeted character returns to their normal coloration.  This is the exact same for when a wall bounces the spell back onto Dread Slime.  He's invulnerable from the beginning to the end of the animation, but once damage numbers pop up, you can stack damage on him just like normal, so no real time is lost.  There's actually potential for killing him in one less hit due to the lowered defense from the Acid Storm, but that's pretty unlikely, assuming it's actually possible.

If you were to skip on the wall casts, the armorless strats would need to use a curative for every Acid Storm cast, and on average you'll end up using 2-3 curatives that may be in short supply by the end of the run, plus the menus needed would make up the few seconds lost due to casting wall.

tl;dr: I will be casting wall on all 3 characters in the Dread Slime fight now.

Yagamoth

2014-08-30 07:28:28 am

INTJ

Oh.. That's right, I never actually through about that. In armorless it should always be faster to use wall oô.. Maybe cast 2 single walls on 2 characters so it lasts through Dark Lich and the 3rd Mana Fortress segment too?

Also, looking forward to your runs. Armorless Mana Fortress is surprisingly exciting ^^

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-08-31 04:13:02 pm

Crow!: 2014-08-31 04:12:43 pm

Crow!: 2014-08-31 04:12:22 pm

Crow!: 2014-08-31 04:11:44 pm

Crow!: 2014-08-31 04:11:33 pm

2014-08-31 03:07:28 pm

What's that gemma?

Bad news regarding the Earth Seed skip. Even if you talk to the seed from above to cause the seed's mana power to appear in your status screen, you don't actually get the mana power. This was causing me to lose a lot of magic experience and lose a lot more time than the cutscene skip gains for the 1 controller category.

Multiple controller runs couldn't care less, of course.

Edit:

On a similar note, skipping the Light and Dark mana seeds is probably also a bad idea, whereas before I had decided that it basically didn't matter. The Dryad cutscene does not actually change your Mana Power at all. The Mana Tree cutscene sets your Mana Power to 8.

Going from 4 to 6 Mana Power means +20 Mana Power damage per cast vs Watermelon, and +40 Mana Power damage against everything in Pureland (I think Mana Power damage gets doubled for elemental weaknesses, though I'm not 100% sure on that).

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-09-02 09:54:46 pm

StingerPA: 2014-09-02 03:12:18 pm

2014-09-02 02:54:22 pm

I'm starting a new 1 controller theory TAS, and I've already found a super weird thing when exiting Potos Village: If you dash too early in the next screen, you end up being slower than if you just walked straight down to the rabite. For some reason, you lock up for a second while dashing down, but that pause doesn't happen when you walk. From what I'm seeing, the later you dash there, the less time you lose, but I haven't been able to find a timing that's actually faster than just walking. I'm wondering if this is a thing elsewhere, but I'll see as I go through the game.

Edit: This also occurs when entering the Pandoran soldiers + Dyluck screen after leaving the Water Palace.

Edit2: Found a very confusing error in my original post, corrected it.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-09-02 08:16:44 pm

Crow!: 2014-09-02 08:15:12 pm

2014-09-02 08:13:41 pm

What's that gemma?

Exploring the game choosing to lag when you start running too soon:

It happens when entering the right cave in Gaia's Navel but not the left, and not upon exiting either cave.
It happens upon entering the Matango cave from the mushroom fields, but not upon exiting.

Okay, this I think illustrates what's going on:
It happens when a file that has cleared the Gold Tower enters that tower from the town.
It does NOT happen if you exit and re-enter the Gold Tower, such that the proper music is already playing.
It does NOT happen if you have not cleared the Gold Tower yet, such that enemies are nearby as you enter.

It seems to happen after screen transitions where the music changes, and your weapons are out, but there AREN'T enemies "nearby." I have no idea what "nearby" means here, though.

------
Faster and more reliable setup for the Royal Jam Wall Glitch:

- Enter the room from the left door as normal, but with the Boy at full HP, with his armor, and with him selected.
- Immediately upon entering the room, unequip the Boy's armor and tell the Sprite to cast Freeze on the low ground Knight.
--- You can do both these tasks in the same menu access.
- Walk the Boy into the line of fire of the Knight. You can take a hit before the Knight gets stunned by the Freeze spell animation.
- Move the Girl or Sprite into the proper position for the Wall Glitch.
--- Use the frescoes to position without worrying about waiting for the knight to walk into the wall.
- Dash downward to gather the party.
- Cast Freeze on the Knight.
- Swap to the Boy and have him walk a short distance left and then tap right.
--- Don't move so far that your teammates follow you, just far enough that the Boy is in range for the Wall bounce.
--- Depending on where the Boy wound up after taking a hit, he might have placed himself above the rest of your party. He should in this case be facing either right or down; so long as he is, you don't have to move him at all.
- Swap to the Girl, and wait for the Boy to die.
- As soon as the "Level Up!" sound effect plays, you're clear to re-cast Freeze with the Sprite.
- Use a Royal Jam immediately after commanding the Freeze cast; you should see the damage numbers briefly before you pause.
- Repeat until you're down to 4 Royal Jams.
- Once the Freeze cast that will require you to spend your 4x -> 3x Royal Jam has its animation playing, put the Girl in position to equipment trash, and do so to restock your Royal Jams (and equip the Flower Suit while you're at it).
- Once the level-up sound plays this time, go up the door, use a Cup of Wishes, and re-set to do the remaining Wall casts.

If you start with a strange number of Royal Jams due to trouble earlier on in the run, you may have to improvise a bit. Remember that the Dark Knight's Wall only lasts for 6 reflections.

Exploring the game choosing to lag when you start running too soon:

It happens when entering the right cave in Gaia's Navel but not the left, and not upon exiting either cave.
It happens upon entering the Matango cave from the mushroom fields, but not upon exiting.

Okay, this I think illustrates what's going on:
It happens when a file that has cleared the Gold Tower enters that tower from the town.
It does NOT happen if you exit and re-enter the Gold Tower, such that the proper music is already playing.
It does NOT happen if you have not cleared the Gold Tower yet, such that enemies are nearby as you enter.

It seems to happen after screen transitions where the music changes, and your weapons are out, but there AREN'T enemies "nearby."  I have no idea what "nearby" means here, though.

------
Faster and more reliable setup for the Royal Jam Wall Glitch:

- Enter the room from the left door as normal, but with the Boy at full HP, with his armor, and with him selected.
- Immediately upon entering the room, unequip the Boy's armor and tell the Sprite to cast Freeze on the low ground Knight.
--- You can do both these tasks in the same menu access.
- Walk the Boy into the line of fire of the Knight.  You can take a hit before the Knight gets stunned by the Freeze spell animation.
- Move the Girl or Sprite into the proper position for the Wall Glitch.
--- Use the frescoes to position without worrying about waiting for the knight to walk into the wall.
[b]- Dash downward to gather the party.[/b]
- Cast Freeze on the Knight.
- Swap to the Boy and have him walk a short distance left and then tap right.
--- Don't move so far that your teammates follow you, just far enough that the Boy is in range for the Wall bounce.
--- Depending on where the Boy wound up after taking a hit, he might have placed himself above the rest of your party.  He should in this case be facing either right or down; so long as he is, you don't have to move him at all.
- Swap to the Girl, and wait for the Boy to die.
- As soon as the "Level Up!" sound effect plays, you're clear to re-cast Freeze with the Sprite.
- Use a Royal Jam immediately after commanding the Freeze cast; you should see the damage numbers briefly before you pause.
- Repeat until you're down to 4 Royal Jams.
- Once the Freeze cast that will require you to spend your 4x -> 3x Royal Jam has its animation playing, put the Girl in position to equipment trash, and do so to restock your Royal Jams (and equip the Flower Suit while you're at it).
- Once the level-up sound plays this time, go up the door, use a Cup of Wishes, and re-set to do the remaining Wall casts.

If you start with a strange number of Royal Jams due to trouble earlier on in the run, you may have to improvise a bit.  Remember that the Dark Knight's Wall only lasts for 6 reflections.

StingerPA

2014-09-04 02:05:21 am

I've gotten through Spikey Tiger on the 1c theory TAS, and some really odd weapon experience is popping up toward the end of the segment. Everything up to the room right before Spikey follows what the known formulas say should be correct, where the boy gets 8 weapon exp from kills against high level enemies, 4 from low level enemies, and 4 from when the sprite kills things. The sprite gets 9 weap exp from kills, 4 from boy kills. I'll quote HHS from TASVideos for what we currently believe to be the weapon exp formula:

Quote from HHS:

The weapon experience for an enemy will be halved if your level is greater than the enemy's level. The other living party members will receive half the weapon experience that the killer gets.

My problem crops up at the very end of Elinee's Castle. Entering the Chair room, the boy is at level 5, with 1:84 exp (just enough for the 2 chairs to give him level 2 charge). The Sprite is at level 4 (levels up to level 5 after killing 2 chairs) with 0:87 exp. The Polter Chair's level is 9 from the SoM Spreadsheet, and Spikey is level 11, meaning they both should be above the threshold for gaining full experience. My problems occur with the sprite here not getting the proper amounts of exp. From the 1st chair kill, he gains :04 exp as usual, bringing him to 0:91. After the 2nd chair kill, he levels up to level 5, but weapon exp only goes up to 0:92, a gain of :01. After Spikey, the boy kills with the sword, so the sprite gains some exp, but only :02 this time, bringing him to 0:95.

My current theory is that the formula is incomplete. I'm not exactly sure what's missing, so I'm going to cross post some of this in the GameFAQs thread so Regrs can take a look as well.

I've gotten through Spikey Tiger on the 1c theory TAS, and some really odd weapon experience is popping up toward the end of the segment.  Everything up to the room right before Spikey follows what the known formulas say should be correct, where the boy gets 8 weapon exp from kills against high level enemies, 4 from low level enemies, and 4 from when the sprite kills things.  The sprite gets 9 weap exp from kills, 4 from boy kills.  I'll quote HHS from TASVideos for what we currently believe to be the weapon exp formula:

[quote=HHS]The weapon experience for an enemy will be halved if your level is greater than the enemy's level. The other living party members will receive half the weapon experience that the killer gets. [/quote]

My problem crops up at the very end of Elinee's Castle.  Entering the Chair room, the boy is at level 5, with 1:84 exp (just enough for the 2 chairs to give him level 2 charge).  The Sprite is at level 4 (levels up to level 5 after killing 2 chairs) with 0:87 exp.  The Polter Chair's level is 9 from the SoM Spreadsheet, and Spikey is level 11, meaning they both should be above the threshold for gaining full experience.  My problems occur with the sprite here not getting the proper amounts of exp.  From the 1st chair kill, he gains :04 exp as usual, bringing him to 0:91.  After the 2nd chair kill, he levels up to level 5, but weapon exp only goes up to 0:92, a gain of :01.  After Spikey, the boy kills with the sword, so the sprite gains some exp, but only :02 this time, bringing him to 0:95.

My current theory is that the formula is incomplete.  I'm not exactly sure what's missing, so I'm going to cross post some of this in the GameFAQs thread so Regrs can take a look as well.

Alowishus

2014-09-04 05:34:59 am

Hello! Is the one controller category still a competitive thing or is it all 1player2controllers now? I might look into picking up one controller. Just looks like a lot of focus is more into 2 player. Thanks.

Yagamoth

2014-09-04 07:17:00 am

INTJ

The 1 controller category is at least as competitive (and actively developed as you may be able to tell from the previous few posts ^^) as the 1p2c category. It's simply a lot more random and it requires a fair bit more knowledge to get into

But if you have any questions, we are always glad to help Smiley

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-09-04 07:22:04 am

Crow!: 2014-09-04 07:21:44 am

2014-09-04 07:18:45 am

What's that gemma?

Stinger and I both run the 1 controller category; I focus on it primarily, while he prefers 2 controller.

-----
Your math is off, Stinger: 87 + 4 + 1 + 2 < 95.
If the Sprite actually went up to 0:94 experience after the second chair, then all this makes ~~perfect sense~~. When the Boy kills the second chair, he levels up his sword. By the time the game calculates how much weapon experience to give the Sprite, it sees the sword at level 2, and grants (9 - 2) / 2 = 3 experience. Spikey is a boss, and does whatever the hell he wants in terms of weapon experience - I've never been able to correctly predict what a boss will do to weapon experience, and it seems to be wildly different on a per-boss basis.

It might be interesting (not useful, but interesting) to check what happens during the kill that grants the Sprite his weapon level; this would tell us whether the game first grants the killer experience then awards assist experience, or if it instead goes through each character blindly and determines from scratch what to do there.

This reminds me, though: you sometimes inexplicably gain weapon levels during boss fights. If we understood what was going on there we might be able to farm up some experience that way - probably not, though, since those bosses are generally under perpetual spell-animation-stun past the first few seconds of the fight.

Stinger and I both run the 1 controller category; I focus on it primarily, while he prefers 2 controller.

-----
Your math is off, Stinger: 87 + 4 + 1 + 2 < 95.
If the Sprite actually went up to 0:94 experience after the second chair, then all this makes [s]perfect sense[/s].  When the Boy kills the second chair, he levels up his sword.  By the time the game calculates how much weapon experience to give the Sprite, it sees the sword at level 2, and grants (9 - 2) / 2 = 3 experience.  Spikey is a boss, and does whatever the hell he wants in terms of weapon experience - I've never been able to correctly predict what a boss will do to weapon experience, and it seems to be wildly different on a per-boss basis.

It might be interesting (not [i]useful[/i], but interesting) to check what happens during the kill that grants the Sprite his weapon level; this would tell us whether the game first grants the killer experience then awards assist experience, or if it instead goes through each character blindly and determines from scratch what to do there.

This reminds me, though: you sometimes inexplicably gain weapon levels [i]during[/i] boss fights.  If we understood what was going on there we might be able to farm up some experience that way - probably not, though, since those bosses are generally under perpetual spell-animation-stun past the first few seconds of the fight.

StingerPA

2014-09-04 07:49:42 am

Yeah, my math was off. It should've been 3 exp for killing spikey instead of 2. I guess that spikey exp makes sense in a way, but that last chair kill still makes no sense at all.

StingerPA

2014-09-04 01:34:27 pm

Ok, Regrs figured it out. It turns out that variables are shared, and due to some bullshit within the game, if any character gains a weapon level, the characters after them will only gain experience equal to half the weapon level you just reached. In this case, the boy leveled the sword up to Lvl 2, and after memory shenanigans, that messes the variables up so that the game thinks the weapon experience gained was 2, and then that's halved and given to the Sprite as 1 exp.

Anyways, this means I'll need to re-route the kills in the Spikey segment now that I have a better understanding of the formulas involved.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-09-04 04:01:41 pm

2014-09-04 04:01:02 pm

What's that gemma?

Actually, being at 95 experience with the Sprite at that point is pretty good - just kill the Bee as you land on it on your way to the Earth Palace (up to 99) and kill the Fire Gigas with seven Freeze casts plus the level 0 sword attack at the start and a level 2 sword attack at the end (which, provided you don't get bad damage rolls at Mech Rider, is the fastest anyway).

StingerPA

2014-09-04 04:27:04 pm

That bee kill will be enough to level up, actually. Ending with 95 on Spikey means I'll get another 3 from Tonpole putting me at 98. At that point, anyone can kill the bee (or any enemy for that matter, except maybe rabites) to get the sprite leveled up. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-09-12 06:51:42 am

Yagamoth: 2014-09-12 06:48:14 am

2014-09-12 04:24:31 am

INTJ

I researched the thing about the Jumpy-thing a bit, as to why it sometimes doesn't work:

o.. As far as we know, the game operates on a 5-frage-cycle where it does the following (credit to HHS from the tasvideos forums):
Frame 1: Animate enemy 1 or NPC 1, 2, 3, sort sprites
Frame 2: Check if level 8 spell has ended, animate enemy 2 or NPC 4, 5, 6
Frame 3: Animate enemy 3 or NPC 7, 8, 9, process various buttons
Frame 4: Run game script, animate players, animate the man's weapon
Frame 5: Perform tinting, animate the woman's and the sprite's weapon

So, this leads me to believe, that depending on which frame in the cycle we open the menu, the outcome can vary a bit. But here's my little research.

I positioned the Girl, so if she goes the full distance with the level 1 sword-attack, she would -just- touch the High Stepper (pixel perfect)
http://i.imgur.com/mXXHLFv.png

First number is "frame of menu opened AFTER the Girl released the charge-button". And then there is a short description of the outcome.

Code:

0 max distance (=reached the High Stepper)
1 max distance
2 short distance (~1 tile away)
3 short distance
4 short distance
5 short distance
6 short distance
7 almost max (~1-2 pixel away)
8 almost max
9 almost max
10 almost max
11 almost max
12 immediate stop (=First crouch-animation-frame, stops movement immediately)
13 immediate stop
14 immediate stop
15 immediate stop
16 immediate stop
17 immediate stop (First frame of the jump-animation)
18 immediate stop
19 immediate stop
20 immediate stop
30 immediate stop
31 immediate stop
32 immediate stop
33 immediate stop
34 immediate stop
35 immediate stop
36 immediate stop
37 immediate stop
38 immediate stop* - *BUT, it reached the High-Stepper already
39 immediate stop*
40 immediate stop*
41 immediate stop*
42 immediate stop*
43 Menu does not open (High stepper already reached)

"short" and "almost max"-distance can still trigger the glitch if you are close enough. So, my theory is, that it has to do with animation frames to an extent

Further, when I delayed the start by 1 frame, the short-distance came on frame 1 instead of 2.When I delayed it by 2 frames, it came on frame 0 instead of frame 2. Further, when I decided to delay it by 7 frames (2 + 5), it also came on frame 0 with the short-distance.

This confirms my idea, that it's probably about the 5-frame-cycle to an extent. But that's only the variation. From what I can tell at this point is, that - the earlier we open the menu, the better as long as we are not too far away.

=============================================

Edit: There is actually a starting-frame where we have literally 0 chance of activating the glitch, since the Girl starts charging before the menu opens and gets into the stance where she will stop before the jumpy-thing. 1 in 5 chance unless we find some way to figure out on which frame we are. I'll test whether the same thing is true for the Boy now...

Ok, if we use the charge from the Boy, there is no bad starting frame at all. There is one where he starts charging immediately, but he will always complete his animation as long as open the menu early enough. So... Our two options are:

1) Hope for the 1 in 5 chance to NOT occur. If it does, use a curative to stop the Girl without calling Flammie
2) Swap the Sword back to the Boy during the Mech Rider #3 fight. Unfortunately this is an extra menu in itself, since we reset the weapons for the Buffy manipulation.

Spear does not work at all.

======================================

Edit 2: To figure out in which frame of the cycle we are... That wouldn't actually help, since we would've release the charge already. OR, if we use a buffer menu, we can never be sure to hit the menu on the first frame when it's available again. My idea was to use the spring-thingies eyes as an indicator, since it's on a 10-frame-cycle. But... It doesn't really help.

I researched the thing about the Jumpy-thing a bit, as to why it sometimes doesn't work:

o.. As far as we know, the game operates on a 5-frage-cycle where it does the following (credit to HHS from the tasvideos forums):
Frame 1: Animate enemy 1 or NPC 1, 2, 3, sort sprites 
Frame 2: Check if level 8 spell has ended, animate enemy 2 or NPC 4, 5, 6 
Frame 3: Animate enemy 3 or NPC 7, 8, 9, process various buttons 
Frame 4: Run game script, animate players, animate the man's weapon 
Frame 5: Perform tinting, animate the woman's and the sprite's weapon

So, this leads me to believe, that depending on which frame in the cycle we open the menu, the outcome can vary a bit. But here's my little research.

I positioned the Girl, so if she goes the full distance with the level 1 sword-attack, she would -just- touch the High Stepper (pixel perfect) 
http://i.imgur.com/mXXHLFv.png

First number is "frame of menu opened AFTER the Girl released the charge-button". And then there is a short description of the outcome.

[code]
0 max distance (=reached the High Stepper)
1 max distance
2 short distance (~1 tile away)
3 short distance
4 short distance
5 short distance
6 short distance
7 almost max (~1-2 pixel away)
8 almost max
9 almost max
10 almost max
11 almost max
12 immediate stop (=First crouch-animation-frame, stops movement immediately)
13 immediate stop
14 immediate stop
15 immediate stop
16 immediate stop
17 immediate stop (First frame of the jump-animation)
18 immediate stop
19 immediate stop
20 immediate stop
30 immediate stop
31 immediate stop
32 immediate stop
33 immediate stop
34 immediate stop
35 immediate stop
36 immediate stop
37 immediate stop
38 immediate stop* - *BUT, it reached the High-Stepper already
39 immediate stop*
40 immediate stop*
41 immediate stop*
42 immediate stop*
43 Menu does not open (High stepper already reached)
[/code]

"short" and "almost max"-distance can still trigger the glitch if you are close enough. So, my theory is, that it has to do with animation frames to an extent

Further, when I delayed the start by 1 frame, the short-distance came on frame 1 instead of 2.When I delayed it by 2 frames, it came on frame 0 instead of frame 2. Further, when I decided to delay it by 7 frames (2 + 5), it also came on frame 0 with the short-distance.

This confirms my idea, that it's probably about the 5-frame-cycle to an extent. But that's only the variation. From what I can tell at this point is, that - the earlier we open the menu, the better as long as we are not too far away.

=============================================

Edit: There is actually a starting-frame where we have literally 0 chance of activating the glitch, since the Girl starts charging before the menu opens and gets into the stance where she will stop before the jumpy-thing. 1 in 5 chance unless we find some way to figure out on which frame we are. I'll test whether the same thing is true for the Boy now...

Ok, if we use the charge from the Boy, there is no bad starting frame at all. There is one where he starts charging immediately, but he will always complete his animation as long as open the menu early enough. So... Our two options are:

1) Hope for the 1 in 5 chance to NOT occur. If it does, use a curative to stop the Girl without calling Flammie
2) Swap the Sword back to the Boy during the Mech Rider #3 fight. Unfortunately this is an extra menu in itself, since we reset the weapons for the Buffy manipulation.

Spear does not work at all.

======================================

Edit 2: To figure out in which frame of the cycle we are... That wouldn't actually help, since we would've release the charge already. OR, if we use a buffer menu, we can never be sure to hit the menu on the first frame when it's available again. My idea was to use the spring-thingies eyes as an indicator, since it's on a 10-frame-cycle. But... It doesn't really help.

Crow!

2014-09-12 08:09:35 am

What's that gemma?

I'm confused by Yaga's post - if the game runs on a 5 frame cycle, why would there be a starting frame from which it is impossible to pause the game within a 12 frame window? The only reasonable answer I can come up with is "because the pause menu doesn't activate until the second correct frame of the 5-frame cycle after calling for it", but that wouldn't actually be a problem because you could just press Y a frame or two before releasing B from the Girl rather than simultaneously or afterward.

Yagamoth

2014-09-12 08:27:48 am

INTJ

Eh, no, from what I know - the pause menu always comes up the set amount of time after pressing the button (unless you have no control over your character).

What I meant is: I can pause BEFORE the Girl reaches the jumpy-thing. But then when we call Flammie, in 1 of 5 frames she will stop her movement before she reaches the jumpy-thing

Deuceler

Edit history:

Deuceler: 2014-09-12 08:38:59 am

2014-09-12 08:38:22 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Quote:

When attacking to enemies or obstacles, I must time the best frame to press B button. Because, when I press the B button, the character stops his/her movement right away, but the action will occur at the first frame in the next 5 frames-rule

This is from Touch-me's notes on TAS videos. I'm assuming dependent on which frame you start from, you would have to wait for a few frames in order to do your next action. For example if you release 'B' on the 1st frame during a set of 5 you have to wait 4 frames for Girl to begin her charge animation. Depending on when you press 'Y' to enter the menu you could have to wait for 4 additional frames. So that being said the timing seems pretty tight, and would explain why girl stops her movement if Yaga enters the menu prior to reaching the yellow blob.

Yagamoth

2014-09-12 08:44:08 am

INTJ

Hm... Nice quote. It explains why the Girl sometimes moves before I can open the menu. But unfortunately it doesn't explain why the Girl stops her movement after we call Flammie as opposed to - not - when we call Flammie after ^^

Deuceler

2014-09-12 08:45:37 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Do you have a video yaga? I guess I'm a little bit confused as to what exactly is happening with the glitch

Yagamoth

2014-09-12 08:47:12 am

INTJ

Here: http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/b/567178961?t=111m1s
^