Secret of Mana

2013-11-28 03:35:07 am

INTJ

Stinger - can you try to reproduce the control-glitch on your console? I can get something similar to work on Emulator, but in the few tries on console nothing seemed to work. The way it worked on Emulator was, that I could control the Boy with the 2nd controller, textboxes with the first, but no dash-attempt (character didn't lose stamina) and no slash at all <- Which is pretty vital if you try to see what happens later on with that glitch active.

What I did was simply soft-reset (hold) after power-on the emulator/console and then started a new game.

On a sidenote, this also seems to work on all other versions of the game. It's a bit strange on the japanese one though. The menu doesn't respond "properly". It's pretty hard to describe. Sometimes the buttons worked, sometimes they didn't when trying to start a new game.

Yagamoth

2013-11-29 02:21:32 pm

INTJ

So... What I figured out so far is, that the horribly confuses what buttons do what. I didn't manage to get your setup yet, where I could slash and stuff from the get-go, but watching the RAM a little I have a few things to say:
- I have no idea which values do what
- But I can say, that while the opening cutscene is playing the following happens:
-- Values change (whatever values those are) before the cinematic cutscene starts
-- Values stay the same as long as the cinematic cutscene plays
-- Values change again after the intro resets... basically it loops

My theory so far is, that you managed to reset at a very specific point, where those values were arranged in a way, that you could still slash and sorta-dash. Basically, the game doesn't "bind" all actions to the proper values. For example: Using the walk-through walls I got to the point where the Girl joined my party. I could open the menu after she joined, but not close it (=softlock... Besides its horribly messed up). Also, I can interact with NPCs with B, but not slash. I can moonwalk with B + R, but not slash. So weird..

Another interesting point is, when the Girl joined the party, I tried several things. For example, I switched character, then I was still the Boy. But, the Boy was considered AI controlled, even though I could walk around as him on the first controller. The script still applied - I walked into a wall, the AI adjusted my movement. The Girl was completey controlled by the 2nd controller now, even though she never pressed Start... Weird stuff

Question StingerPA: Did you have the controllers plugged in from the very start?

So... What I figured out so far is, that the horribly confuses what buttons do what. I didn't manage to get your setup yet, where I could slash and stuff from the get-go, but watching the RAM a little I have a few things to say:
- I have no idea which values do what
- But I can say, that while the opening cutscene is playing the following happens:
-- Values change (whatever values those are) before the cinematic cutscene starts
-- Values stay the same as long as the cinematic cutscene plays
-- Values change again after the intro resets... basically it loops

My theory so far is, that you managed to reset at a very specific point, where those values were arranged in a way, that you could still slash and sorta-dash. Basically, the game doesn't "bind" all actions to the proper values. For example: Using the walk-through walls I got to the point where the Girl joined my party. I could open the menu after she joined, but not close it (=softlock... Besides its horribly messed up). Also, I can interact with NPCs with B, but not slash. I can moonwalk with B + R, but not slash. So weird..

Another interesting point is, when the Girl joined the party, I tried several things. For example, I switched character, then I was still the Boy. But, the Boy was considered AI controlled, even though I could walk around as him on the first controller. The script still applied - I walked into a wall, the AI adjusted my movement. The Girl was completey controlled by the 2nd controller now, even though she never pressed Start... Weird stuff

Question StingerPA: Did you have the controllers plugged in from the very start?

StingerPA

2013-11-29 05:31:29 pm

Ok, I just did it again and got the exact same results from when I first stumbled into it. It was extremely easy for me, leading me to believe that it may be unique to the cart being used, or possibly a variety of versions of the US game. My setup was as follows:
-I held the L+R+Start+Select 2 seconds after powering the console on.
-2 controllers plugged in from power-up.

Upon beginning a new file, I was able to move with the 2nd controller, use B and A with both the 1st and 2nd controllers (as before, the A button merely caused the % bar to reset from 0 and didn't actually let me dash), and open the menu with the 1st and 2nd controllers (but I was only able to move around in the menu with the 1st controller, even if the 2nd controller opened it. Text could not be advanced with the 2nd controller. Damages were consistently 17 and 13 unlike our normal 18 and 14 damages in the beginning.

Tropicallo is extremely weird. He actually has the 2nd Brambler visible (which NEVER happens in normal play under any conditions I've encountered). You cannot charge up your sword or spear, but you can charge your weapons outside of bosses, I think.

After getting the sprite, I was able to reset the game to normal conditions (although the boy was still dealing 1 less damage than usual) by activating the 2nd controller properly. However, there were some things that I did get to see, one of which was while the "1st Player" was set on the Sprite, you could still move the boy around with the 2nd controller, even though there was no number on the boy indicating he should have been AI controlled. Also, you could dash with the sprite now.

Ok, I just did it again and got the exact same results from when I first stumbled into it.  It was extremely easy for me, leading me to believe that it may be unique to the cart being used, or possibly a variety of versions of the US game.  My setup was as follows: 
-I held the L+R+Start+Select 2 seconds after powering the console on.  
-2 controllers plugged in from power-up.

Upon beginning a new file, I was able to move with the 2nd controller, use B and A with both the 1st and 2nd controllers (as before, the A button merely caused the % bar to reset from 0 and didn't actually let me dash), and open the menu with the 1st and 2nd controllers (but I was only able to move around in the menu with the 1st controller, even if the 2nd controller opened it.  Text could not be advanced with the 2nd controller.  Damages were consistently 17 and 13 unlike our normal 18 and 14 damages in the beginning.

Tropicallo is extremely weird.  He actually has the 2nd Brambler visible (which NEVER happens in normal play under any conditions I've encountered).  You cannot charge up your sword or spear, but you can charge your weapons outside of bosses, I think.

After getting the sprite, I was able to reset the game to normal conditions (although the boy was still dealing 1 less damage than usual) by activating the 2nd controller properly.  However, there were some things that I did get to see, one of which was while the "1st Player" was set on the Sprite, you could still move the boy around with the 2nd controller, even though there was no number on the boy indicating he should have been AI controlled.  Also, you could dash with the sprite now.

Yagamoth

2013-11-29 07:45:26 pm

INTJ

Interesting. I literally tried all versions included in the ROM-package I found - which usually includes pretty much everything, even some of the more popular hacks of games.. Every single rom had the same result - I could move around with the 2nd controller, initiate dialog and advance textoxes with the 1st controller, but not run or slash.

My console version however does literally nothing. Everything seems as normal (I didn't try to continue though). Everything up to the sword pickup and slashing bushes is normal.

The 1 less damage might be either because the Boys stats are messed up (check the character screen?) or the weapon is not the real first Sword or something like that. Hard to tell.

Did you hold the soft-reset or quickly pressed it?

StingerPA

2013-11-29 08:41:43 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

The 1 less damage might be either because the Boys stats are messed up (check the character screen?) or the weapon is not the real first Sword or something like that. Hard to tell.

Did you hold the soft-reset or quickly pressed it?

The 1 less damage held true for both the sword and the spear, so I'm pretty sure it was the Boy's stats.

I held the soft reset. I'm pretty sure that's required since we've done tons of resets this way and never messed up the game to this degree before.

Yagamoth

2013-11-29 08:45:38 pm

INTJ

It actually has the same effect on emulator, whether you hold or immediately release. It seems to simply lock in some weird values into the RAM which are not changed upon starting a new game (and are expected to be set to something specific --> similar as to why selecting the Girl and soft-resetting results in the infinite screen scroll)

StingerPA

2013-11-29 09:16:57 pm

That's odd since most of the time I stream, I do a L+R+Start+Select restart right when I launch my stream so that my daily stream begins at the very start of the intro. Surely I would've found it before now. Maybe it's only if you never go to the opening menu to select a new game or load an old one. That may be why I've never gotten it before.

Anyways, I just did it again with just pressing the buttons and got a slightly different result. Now the 2nd controller has everything except text. That is the only thing still controlled by the 1st controller. Menus, attacking, and the A button resetting the % bar are all on the 2nd controller.

Yagamoth

2013-11-30 04:29:55 am

INTJ

Yes, the values are normalized if you enter the New Game / Load Game menu before soft-resetting

Crow!

2013-12-02 12:13:06 pm

What's that gemma?

@Musashi: the accepted run is the same one you're familiar with from before; it's still less than a minute faster than your run. The reason it's listed as slightly faster is just because SDA starts the timer when you can start moving your character, rather than when you are done entering your name.

I have found new strategies, but I have yet to produce a run that I've executed well enough for the ~5 minutes worth of improvement to pay off, and for the moment I'm not trying. I may make a video of a rough run of the second half of the game just so I don't forget for the next time I pick this up.

Musashi

Edit history:

Musashi: 2013-12-02 01:48:50 pm

Musashi: 2013-12-02 01:48:24 pm

2013-12-02 01:47:37 pm

But time flows like a river...

Oh ok, I am sad, I wanted to see some new strategies, but that's cool SDA has a SoM run now!

Just wanna ask about the role pole glitch for skiping PureLand, so since it requires 2 controllers, SDA reject it as one player run?

It's time to find new things for sub 3hours, let's find a new corruption glitch, or PureLand skip with one controller! I will really try next year to come back in this game, cause now Crow! has the Crown, and it's always fun to try to find new strategies! happy

StingerPA

2013-12-02 02:03:22 pm

I'll be joining you in 1c runs too shortly. Just need to not be lazy and get off my ass.

Pure Land skip with 1c will need a new method of bypassing the barrier. Right now the only way we know how to do it is by event stacking to make the game forget to activate the barrier. That requires 2 controllers since the game is exceptionally well coded to keep AI characters from activating events.

luigimeister

Edit history:

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 09:31:24 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 09:30:09 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 08:44:23 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 08:12:20 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 08:09:32 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 08:08:57 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 08:08:20 pm

luigimeister: 2013-12-04 08:04:32 pm

2013-12-04 07:51:45 pm

Likes SoM far too much

I'm testing Japanese VC right now. I'll let you guys know if they fixed the softlock or not. It runs kinda funny on dolphin so if someone wanted to use this version it'd have to be on an actual homebrewed wii. (shoutouts to MHFSilver for finding this for me, he's been looking for ages)
1. Blat glitch isn't patched.
2. Equipment trashing still works.
3. Haven't softlocked on a boss (yet)
Will test more this weekend, dolphin's being weird, gonna stick it on my actual wii

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-12-05 02:25:17 pm

StingerPA: 2013-12-05 02:25:16 pm

StingerPA: 2013-12-05 02:24:45 pm

2013-12-05 02:18:13 pm

New record here. 2:04:23 is now the time to beat.

http://www.twitch.tv/stingerpa/c/3346737 - part 1 (first 20 minutes)
http://www.twitch.tv/stingerpa/c/3346750 - part 2

Pretty much everything was solid with no major losses anywhere except for a missed cannon travel where I went to the water palace instead of the upper land. That cost me about 52 seconds.

StingerPA

2013-12-09 12:14:13 pm

Finally getting around to posting a spreadsheet I've had for a while now. I was wanting to do more work on it, but I'm excessively lazy. This shows the kills in Gaia's Navel and how much each set of kills costs you in terms of frames. On the right side are different combinations of kills that you could do, and the bottom-most combination is the fastest.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiBzZgnKmNXddGotckhVMV9ZZWlkUXFyeVNLZFRlcWc#gid=1

Also, I've attached a .zip file containing .smvs of all of these rooms so you can see them for yourselves.

Attachment:

Gaia's Navel smvs.zip

Yagamoth

2013-12-09 03:04:25 pm

INTJ

Nice oô

Did you also account for the frames saved if you push a Goblin towards the next exit?

StingerPA

2013-12-09 03:13:37 pm

Yes, I did. The only things I didn't test were the goblins that sometimes pop up in the room before the magic rope chest. I don't think those matter at all since the chest room goblins are pretty quick, and you've already got 8 kills accounted for before even entering that area (unless you're low on kills, in which case I'd suggest killing those goblins).

Thyias

2013-12-09 03:35:23 pm

Something to know for you guys, StingerPA was freaking out when i went to Grand Palace and did my thing Cheesy

You actually dont have to go downstairs... http://de.twitch.tv/thyias/c/3368288 Thats how you do it

Yagamoth

2013-12-09 03:39:03 pm

INTJ

Wat?... I specifically tried that, not going downstairs.. It did not work for me - I'd have bet my snes on that 0o

Thyias

2013-12-09 03:40:11 pm

Well actually Stinger said the same... but you dont have to Cheesy

or my emulator(in this case) is just broken.. but because we alle 3 play on the same emulator.. that shouldn matter

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-12-09 04:02:40 pm

2013-12-09 03:48:25 pm

INTJ

Just tried it on BizHawk... Works
snes9x works as well... What?..

I'm glad you figured that out. Because I sure wouldn't have oô..

Thyias

2013-12-09 04:09:48 pm

I told you though Cheesy

i even told you in our 2p 2c run Cheesy

but you wanna go downstairs for no reason XD

StingerPA

2013-12-09 05:04:26 pm

Yeah, that's about a 3 second save we've found today. It's really weird that we somehow didn't realize it would work. I'm 100% certain we've tried it before, but with no results.

Vultuz

2013-12-10 02:52:01 am

could be like emulator only stuff (just guessing here)
There is something similar in Secret of Evermore, you can Skip a Boss there (Verminator) but it Crash/Softlock on Console, Emulator can handle it... somehow.
Might you guys test it on console first.

Thyias

2013-12-10 10:20:19 am

Dunno if Stinger got a US version of the game.. cause as you know Vultuz Cheesy

PAL sucks for speedrunning in all ways XD

StingerPA

2013-12-10 11:11:11 am

I do my runs on console. Tongue

I can confirm that it works on console.