Secret of Mana

2013-10-31 01:48:32 pm

INTJ

Something to think about: I wonder whether it would be faster to swap the sword switching to the Sprite half way through when the Girl has to cast more spells.

StingerPA

2013-10-31 02:05:57 pm

I just plugged those values in, and it turns out to be ~30 frames slower to swap to the sprite instead of keeping it with the Girl. Good idea though, I'm sure that somewhere we'll find something like that to save time in an unconventional way.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 09:43:38 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 09:41:59 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 09:10:58 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 09:10:04 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 08:34:43 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 08:09:46 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 08:05:52 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 08:01:26 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 07:58:09 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 05:59:29 am

2013-11-01 05:48:16 am

INTJ

Small improvement: For the Undine -> Magic Rope, use the 2nd controller to walk into the cutscene. The 1st controller can stay with the boy and he can also use the Magic Rope. It doesn't matter who uses the Magic Rope, the Girl and Sprite can still move during that the animation.

Edit 3: It's not necessarily faster as I just noticed. The Sprite has to go over to the Magic soon anyways, so the items would be simply a step inbetween.

Edit: I think it's generally the best if we leave the Whip on the Sprite (like you already do in your notes).. Good, we came to the same conclusion, at least early game ^^

Edit 2: On a sidenote, the frame numbers only have to be correct relative to each other for our comparisons

Edit 4: It's faster to equip the party in Kakkara as the Girl, since she will move over to the Magic afterwards... Thinking about it, you don't even have to fully leave the menu to cast Frost Weapons afterwards, so that's even more saved ^^

Edit 5: I think the question about "who equips which weapon when" can be broken down to - "how many times can we use the Axe before we have to swap it out anyway?"

Edit 6: I changed all the overcharge swap descriptions with simply "WCG" so it's easier to differentiate this from other situations in the doc

Edit 7: After a little testing, looks like after the ~~savewarp~~ any reset all menus are set to weapons

Edit 8: I think I completed my list - as in: who does what

Small improvement: For the Undine -> Magic Rope, use the 2nd controller to walk into the cutscene. The 1st controller can stay with the boy and he can also use the Magic Rope. It doesn't matter who uses the Magic Rope, the Girl and Sprite can still move during that the animation.

Edit 3: It's not necessarily faster as I just noticed. The Sprite has to go over to the Magic soon anyways, so the items would be simply a step inbetween.

Edit: I think it's generally the best if we leave the Whip on the Sprite (like you already do in your notes).. Good, we came to the same conclusion, at least early game ^^

Edit 2: On a sidenote, the frame numbers only have to be correct relative to each other for our comparisons

Edit 4: It's faster to equip the party in Kakkara as the Girl, since she will move over to the Magic afterwards... Thinking about it, you don't even have to fully leave the menu to cast Frost Weapons afterwards, so that's even more saved ^^

Edit 5: I think the question about "who equips which weapon when" can be broken down to - "how many times can we use the Axe before we have to swap it out anyway?"

Edit 6: I changed all the overcharge swap descriptions with simply "WCG" so it's easier to differentiate this from other situations in the doc

Edit 7: After a little testing, looks like after the [s]savewarp[/s] any reset all menus are set to weapons

Edit 8: I think I completed my list - as in: who does what

StingerPA

2013-11-01 10:35:01 am

There's several things that you're missing like a magic rope after Watts opens the shortcut and all of the menu buffers we'll have on boss fights. I also started tracking my MP usage and noted that you get an MP refill at the Wind Palace, Sandship, and Joch's. You need to use a faerie walnut on the sprite after the Fire Palace and that should happen right before you rope out so you can skip part of the healing animation.

I think you should also call for Flammie with the Girl after the invisibility glitch while the Boy and Sprite are busy reappearing. There's no time lost since we will use the Girl to Balloon the wolves during the Grand Palace Skip, so she needs to go up that direction anyways.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 11:07:08 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 11:00:34 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 10:59:43 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 10:58:55 am

2013-11-01 10:48:15 am

INTJ

For my purpose, the menu buffers don't matter, since you don't actually use the menu. You'll buffer it with any character either way - so it's not interesting for optimizations ^^

I use the Faerie walnut while I wait for the spells to cast on the 3rd orb in the fire temple. There the animation doesn't matter and no risk of interrupting it via Magic Rope

Good call on the one after invisiblity Smiley

Edit: ~~You probably also want to do all the menueing from reset until the sunken continent with armor equip with the Girl and Sprite. The Boy basically has no reason to touch the menus until then.~~
Edit 2: Hang on... You start on Weapons, not menu after the reset...
Edit 3: Still holds true though. No menueing from the Boy necessary until Armor Equipping.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-11-01 11:33:44 am

StingerPA: 2013-11-01 11:08:36 am

2013-11-01 11:07:27 am

Quote from Yagamoth:

For my purpose, the menu buffers don't matter, since you don't actually use the menu. You'll buffer it with any character either way - so it's not interesting for optimizations ^^

Good point, but I think I'll continue to do it anyways since it helps me keep track of spell lockdowns and MP usage that way.

Edit: I see what you mean up there now. I'll adjust my menus for that.

Edit2: My menus are finished. We spend about a minimum of 6 minutes, 16 seconds in menus over the course of the run if we're "perfect."

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 01:22:21 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 12:43:47 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 12:42:19 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 12:28:10 pm

2013-11-01 12:20:48 pm

INTJ

Your 13) is probably unneccesary, since the Girl should already have the Sword equipped at that point

Your 50) should be done by the Girl, equipping. Since she can do the equipping and then go over to cast frost weapons

So, generally we can determine:
- The Sprite will always keep the Whip and will always stay on Magic menu
- If possible, the Boy will use items
- As a general rule of thumb: Basically all menueing is done by the Girl, with some exceptions
- The Girl gets all the Axe equips..?

Question: Why do we equip the Axe on the Sprite in the beginning? We wouldn't lose anything if the Girl equipped the Axe instead. Advantages:
- Safer wolf fight for the Sprite, being further away with the Boomerang (Also, the damage hitbox is active longer, so you have a bigger window
- You can hit the Spiky with the Boomerang in case he decides to jump on a platform
- Chairs are easier to kill

Edit 2: Also, you always start on the weapons-menu with every character. No idea why I thought it was any different depending on previous menu (the note on top the sheet is wrong)

=============================================

NEW for my route:
- DON'T equip Axe on Sprite
- Equip Axe on Girl AFTER equipping her
- Barrel Sprite before Spiky
- Equip Spear on Girl before Spiky
- Equip Whip on Sprite after Spiky
- Use 2 controllers for the Undine skip, use Magic Rope as the Boy
- Always equip Axe on Girl when it's needed (btw. do we know whether using the Axe to get through those green knobs in the Mana Fortress is faster in a coop run?)
- Keep Whip on Sprite for the rest of the game
- Use the Girl for menueing after the Reset (2x Heal + call Flammie)
- Don't leave the menu after equipping on the Sunken Continent...

======================================

On a sidenote, after thinking about it for a while now, I have a pretty good idea how you can remote-interact with people/objects:
- If you hit B at any point, the game checks whether you are in range for objects/NPCs to interact with
- If EITHER you OR the Object/NPC has no [NULL] value set in the [Location x/y] memory, the check is automatically positive and you interact with that object/NPC

So... There are a two possibilities on how your [Location x/y] can be empty [NULL]:
1) The Object/NPC -just- came into the range of the screen, but does not have any active values loaded yet
2) Your character is invisible

Fire Temple Seed: 1)
Luigimeisters opening the chest after the Ruin #2 cutscene: 1)
My weirdness talking to Jema instead of Neko on the Sunken Continent: 1)

Your 13) is probably unneccesary, since the Girl should already have the Sword equipped at that point

Your 50) should be done by the Girl, equipping. Since she can do the equipping and then go over to cast frost weapons

So, generally we can determine:
- The Sprite will always keep the Whip and will always stay on Magic menu
- If possible, the Boy will use items
- As a general rule of thumb: Basically all menueing is done by the Girl, with some exceptions
- The Girl gets all the Axe equips..?

Question: Why do we equip the Axe on the Sprite in the beginning? We wouldn't lose anything if the Girl equipped the Axe instead. Advantages:
- Safer wolf fight for the Sprite, being further away with the Boomerang (Also, the damage hitbox is active longer, so you have a bigger window
- You can hit the Spiky with the Boomerang in case he decides to jump on a platform
- Chairs are easier to kill

Edit 2: Also, you always start on the weapons-menu with every character. No idea why I thought it was any different depending on previous menu (the note on top the sheet is wrong)

=============================================

NEW for my route:
- DON'T equip Axe on Sprite
- Equip Axe on Girl AFTER equipping her
- Barrel Sprite before Spiky
- Equip Spear on Girl before Spiky
- Equip Whip on Sprite after Spiky
- Use 2 controllers for the Undine skip, use Magic Rope as the Boy
- Always equip Axe on Girl when it's needed (btw. do we know whether using the Axe to get through those green knobs in the Mana Fortress is faster in a coop run?)
- Keep Whip on Sprite for the rest of the game
- Use the Girl for menueing after the Reset (2x Heal + call Flammie)
- Don't leave the menu after equipping on the Sunken Continent...

======================================

On a sidenote, after thinking about it for a while now, I have a pretty good idea how you can remote-interact with people/objects:
- If you hit B at any point, the game checks whether you are in range for objects/NPCs to interact with
- If EITHER you OR the Object/NPC has no [NULL] value set in the [Location x/y] memory, the check is automatically positive and you interact with that object/NPC

So... There are a two possibilities on how your [Location x/y] can be empty [NULL]:
1) The Object/NPC -just- came into the range of the screen, but does not have any active values loaded yet
2) Your character is invisible

Fire Temple Seed: 1)
Luigimeisters opening the chest after the Ruin #2 cutscene: 1)
My weirdness talking to Jema instead of Neko on the Sunken Continent: 1)

StingerPA

2013-11-01 01:17:00 pm

Thanks for the checking. I deleted #13, and I had miscolored #50. Good idea about having the Girl equip the axe. That is actually a bit faster than what I had before, at least with my menus.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-11-01 01:23:47 pm

2013-11-01 01:22:40 pm

INTJ

I edited my previous post a little btw.

Also, it is a tiny little bit faster for me too. It basically saves about a third of a second ^^

StingerPA

2013-11-01 01:27:40 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

(btw. do we know whether using the Axe to get through those green knobs in the Mana Fortress is faster in a coop run?)

It probably would be faster to cut through all of them with 2 players equipping the sword and axe, but I don't think it'd be worth the menuing time.

Yagamoth

2013-11-01 01:28:48 pm

INTJ

Quote from StingerPA:

Quote from Yagamoth:

(btw. do we know whether using the Axe to get through those green knobs in the Mana Fortress is faster in a coop run?)

It probably would be faster to cut through all of them with 2 players equipping the sword and axe, but I don't think it'd be worth the menuing time.

That's exactly what I'm asking ^^.. I mean, the Girl is already on the Weapons menu and its not a swap. So, maybe

StingerPA

2013-11-01 01:38:21 pm

The problem is that neither the boy nor Sprite are on the weapons menu and one of them would have to get the axe out to have both out at the same time.

Yagamoth

2013-11-01 02:04:04 pm

INTJ

Oh.. Well, the idea was to swap the Girls Sword with the Boy before equipping the Axe on her.. So.. The Boy starts with the Sword on Buffy and the Girl basically made the switch between Spear -> Axe -> Spear

StingerPA

2013-11-14 01:21:16 pm

Here's a new Theory TAS, and my commentary which was streamed on my twitch channel.

http://www.twitch.tv/stingerpa/c/3242455

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1721647834/SoMTheoryTAS1.smv

luigimeister

2013-11-14 01:25:16 pm

Likes SoM far too much

This just makes me want to get sub 2 hours at AGDQ

StingerPA

2013-11-14 01:58:10 pm

Gotta practice for sub 2 hours. I'm kinda thinking sub 2 is more possible than we've been giving it credit for. It'll be difficult for sure, but there's not so much RNG that has to go perfectly as we thought since we can lose at least 10-12 minutes to RNG. All the rest is just not screwing up what we have control over.

Yagamoth

2013-11-14 05:45:18 pm

INTJ

I thought the exact same after the theory TAS. I thought my run was solid, but apparently there is still a ton of time to gain outside of getting lucky.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-11-14 05:59:45 pm

2013-11-14 05:56:21 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

I thought the exact same after the theory TAS. I thought my run was solid, but apparently there is still a ton of time to gain outside of getting lucky.

Your run is good, but we still have never had a single run between all of us that had quality play in every single split. We've always seemed to have at least 1-2 splits where we lose a minute off what we should be capable of. You did excellent through most splits, but several splits lost a bunch of time where you shouldn't have. The same is even more true of my own PB. I don't even consider the Mana Fortress I had to be very good anymore with how much time I lost at the Mana Beast.

Just as a comparison for how consistent play across the run matters, if I lost an average of 30 seconds on each of my 23 splits compared to what I got on the TAS splits, I'd get sub 2 hours with time to spare. That's the kind of consistent play we're lacking at the moment.

Crow!

2013-11-15 08:08:23 am

What's that gemma?

Some screens are very straightforward to walk through (i.e. making the U-turn around Pandora Ruins). Is it reasonable in 1p2c to execute those screens with both controllers simultaneously, in order to gain the screen transition bonus?

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-11-15 09:05:21 am

StingerPA: 2013-11-15 08:59:41 am

StingerPA: 2013-11-15 08:59:21 am

StingerPA: 2013-11-15 08:55:08 am

StingerPA: 2013-11-15 08:54:10 am

2013-11-15 08:41:12 am

We've thought about it, but haven't tried to implement anything of that nature yet. The best idea we've come up with to take advantage of the screen transitions goes like this: 1st controller goes to a door, 2nd controller activates before entering. After the transition, disengage the 1st controller and continue through the room with the 2nd controller. At the next transition, engage the 1st controller, and disengage the 2nd controller after the transition.

That would be the best thing, imo, since it doesn't involve you actively controlling both controllers at the same time. The issue is ingraining it into our playstyle, and is it worth it? Right now, there's way more for us to gain through just simple play and consistency. I've messed around with it a bit, but it's just a huge mindfuck trying to keep track of which controller you need to be using at any time. That would probably get a lot easier with practice, but that's a whole lot to adjust to, and so I'll leave it for later when it will actually be useful to gain a few seconds here and there.

EDIT: Also, I did some testing on the barrel trick at Elinee's while entering Spikey. It turns out it only saves 5 frames. So in other words, don't bother.

EDIT2: Here's a huge advantage I just discovered to doing the 2c method of killing Spikey: The whirlwind attack will kill him while he's on the tower. ~~I'm currently testing other charge attacks to see if they work.~~ It doesn't seem like any of the other large area attacks work against him while he's on the tower. However, this is still an awesome thing since now we don't need to worry about him trolling anymore.

We've thought about it, but haven't tried to implement anything of that nature yet.  The best idea we've come up with to take advantage of the screen transitions goes like this: 1st controller goes to a door, 2nd controller activates before entering.  After the transition, disengage the 1st controller and continue through the room with the 2nd controller.  At the next transition, engage the 1st controller, and disengage the 2nd controller after the transition.

That would be the best thing, imo, since it doesn't involve you actively controlling both controllers at the same time.  The issue is ingraining it into our playstyle, and is it worth it?  Right now, there's way more for us to gain through just simple play and consistency.  I've messed around with it a bit, but it's just a huge mindfuck trying to keep track of which controller you need to be using at any time.  That would probably get a lot easier with practice, but that's a whole lot to adjust to, and so I'll leave it for later when it will actually be useful to gain a few seconds here and there.

EDIT:  Also, I did some testing on the barrel trick at Elinee's while entering Spikey.  It turns out it only saves 5 frames. So in other words, don't bother.

EDIT2: Here's a huge advantage I just discovered to doing the 2c method of killing Spikey:  The whirlwind attack will kill him while he's on the tower. [s] I'm currently testing other charge attacks to see if they work.[/s]  It doesn't seem like any of the other large area attacks work against him while he's on the tower.  However, this is still an awesome thing since now we don't need to worry about him trolling anymore.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-11-19 05:15:30 pm

StingerPA: 2013-11-19 04:19:33 pm

StingerPA: 2013-11-19 04:18:38 pm

StingerPA: 2013-11-19 04:14:56 pm

2013-11-19 04:13:40 pm

Here's another present from me: a save state pack for endless practice. This has 118 save states in it from the beginning of the game up until right before the Mana Beast where you can do the mana sword cutscene skip. There is a read-me included, so hopefully that answers any questions you may have.

P.S. I copied the idea from an alttp save state pack, and literally just copied the entire read-me and adjusted it for SoM. Let me know if it still has alttp references Tongue

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/download/b2rx5dw3czdhf0o/Secret+of+Mana+Save+State+Pack+%281.0%29.zip

Edit2: One thing I tested recently is the opening kills for getting the lvl 1 sword leveled up. It turns out that despawning the flower after the 2nd bridge and dashing up to the water palace saves 3 seconds. Unfortunately, there are no rabites outside of the 7 we already kill that take under 3 seconds to kill. Therefore, I'm willing to say that the kills for the lvl 1 sword are complete and set in stone (for now). Next up: confirming the kills for leveling up the spear, and then onto the lvl 2 sword after that.

Also, I found that my TAS actually did screw up on the kills for the lvl 2 sword. I killed a total of 14 enemies (Tropicallo, Buzz Bee x2, Flowers x2 (these guys count as half a kill each), Chobin Hood, Werewolves x2, Chobin Hood, Eye Spy, Blat, Chobin Hood, Eye Spy, Chairs x2). I have some assumptions and beliefs about these kills, but I'll save those until I actually start testing stuff to confirm.

Here's another present from me:  a save state pack for endless practice.  This has 118 save states in it from the beginning of the game up until right before the Mana Beast where you can do the mana sword cutscene skip.  There is a read-me included, so hopefully that answers any questions you may have.

P.S. I copied the idea from an alttp save state pack, and literally just copied the entire read-me and adjusted it for SoM.  Let me know if it still has alttp references :P

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/download/b2rx5dw3czdhf0o/Secret+of+Mana+Save+State+Pack+%281.0%29.zip

Edit2: One thing I tested recently is the opening kills for getting the lvl 1 sword leveled up.  It turns out that despawning the flower after the 2nd bridge and dashing up to the water palace saves 3 seconds.  Unfortunately, there are no rabites outside of the 7 we already kill that take under 3 seconds to kill.  Therefore, I'm willing to say that the kills for the lvl 1 sword are complete and set in stone (for now).  Next up: confirming the kills for leveling up the spear, and then onto the lvl 2 sword after that.

Also, I found that my TAS actually did screw up on the kills for the lvl 2 sword.  I killed a total of 14 enemies (Tropicallo, Buzz Bee x2, Flowers x2 (these guys count as half a kill each), Chobin Hood, Werewolves x2, Chobin Hood, Eye Spy, Blat, Chobin Hood, Eye Spy, Chairs x2).  I have some assumptions and beliefs about these kills, but I'll save those until I actually start testing stuff to confirm.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-11-20 04:11:13 am

Yagamoth: 2013-11-20 04:05:48 am

2013-11-20 03:01:40 am

INTJ

I wondered why no one was posting anymore, I normally get notified via Mail if someone posts. But apparently the mails decided the spamfolder was a better place.. Whatever

Quote:

EDIT2: Here's a huge advantage I just discovered to doing the 2c method of killing Spikey: The whirlwind attack will kill him while he's on the tower. I'm currently testing other charge attacks to see if they work. It doesn't seem like any of the other large area attacks work against him while he's on the tower. However, this is still an awesome thing since now we don't need to worry about him trolling anymore.

o____o... Awesome. So, at least it's not a runkiller anymore - I wonder why I never thought of that

Also, the savestate pack is really neat. Up to now I always used the TAS-run if I wanted to test something specific, thank you Smiley

-> Which emulator is this?

Quote:

Edit2: One thing I tested recently is the opening kills for getting the lvl 1 sword leveled up. It turns out that despawning the flower after the 2nd bridge and dashing up to the water palace saves 3 seconds. Unfortunately, there are no rabites outside of the 7 we already kill that take under 3 seconds to kill. Therefore, I'm willing to say that the kills for the lvl 1 sword are complete and set in stone (for now). Next up: confirming the kills for leveling up the spear, and then onto the lvl 2 sword after that.

Thank you for figuring that out. Did you also consider killing two Rabites at once in some places? (Say, the 2 when entering the 2-bridges-screen)

Assumptions and beliefs? You mean something along the lines, if you level up some of them will only count as half? That's possible.

Edit: another question: You did test if "never running vertically" in the rebels town is faster, compared to leaving it to luck and not getting it? What was the result?

I wondered why no one was posting anymore, I normally get notified via Mail if someone posts. But apparently the mails decided the spamfolder was a better place.. Whatever

[quote]EDIT2: Here's a huge advantage I just discovered to doing the 2c method of killing Spikey:  The whirlwind attack will kill him while he's on the tower.  I'm currently testing other charge attacks to see if they work.  It doesn't seem like any of the other large area attacks work against him while he's on the tower.  However, this is still an awesome thing since now we don't need to worry about him trolling anymore.[/quote]

o____o... Awesome. So, at least it's not a runkiller anymore - I wonder why I never thought of that

Also, the savestate pack is really neat. Up to now I always used the TAS-run if I wanted to test something specific, thank you :)
-> Which emulator is this?

[quote]Edit2: One thing I tested recently is the opening kills for getting the lvl 1 sword leveled up.  It turns out that despawning the flower after the 2nd bridge and dashing up to the water palace saves 3 seconds.  Unfortunately, there are no rabites outside of the 7 we already kill that take under 3 seconds to kill.  Therefore, I'm willing to say that the kills for the lvl 1 sword are complete and set in stone (for now).  Next up: confirming the kills for leveling up the spear, and then onto the lvl 2 sword after that.[/quote]

Thank you for figuring that out. Did you also consider killing two Rabites at once in some places? (Say, the 2 when entering the 2-bridges-screen)

Assumptions and beliefs? You mean something along the lines, if you level up some of them will only count as half? That's possible.

Edit: another question: You did test if "never running vertically" in the rebels town is faster, compared to leaving it to luck and not getting it? What was the result?

StingerPA

2013-11-20 06:37:50 am

Here's my post from 8/19 about the guard skip. I think what you were meaning is mentioned in here.

Quote from StingerPA:

Ok, I've got some more detailed information on the Guard Skip in Southtown. I did a bunch of SMVs for this, and here's what I found. This all assumes fairly perfect movement. If you get the ~50% chance of getting the GS with dashing up/down, you save about 75 frames, or 1.25 seconds over doing only left/right dashes. If you miss the GS, it costs you about 325 frames, or 5.4 seconds over getting the GS with dashing up/down, and 250 frames, or 4.2 seconds over only doing left/right dashes.

In summary:
Getting GS 50% chance with up/down dashes - costs 0 frames, 0 seconds
100% chance with only dashing left/right - costs 75 frames, 1.25 seconds
Missing GS 50% chance with up/down dashes - costs 325 frames, 5.4 seconds

Yagamoth

2013-11-20 07:26:39 am

INTJ

Thank you, I knew there was something like that, but for some reason I couldn't find it ^^

StingerPA

2013-11-20 05:52:06 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

Quote:

Edit2: One thing I tested recently is the opening kills for getting the lvl 1 sword leveled up. It turns out that despawning the flower after the 2nd bridge and dashing up to the water palace saves 3 seconds. Unfortunately, there are no rabites outside of the 7 we already kill that take under 3 seconds to kill. Therefore, I'm willing to say that the kills for the lvl 1 sword are complete and set in stone (for now). Next up: confirming the kills for leveling up the spear, and then onto the lvl 2 sword after that.

Thank you for figuring that out. Did you also consider killing two Rabites at once in some places? (Say, the 2 when entering the 2-bridges-screen)

I did test where I could with 2 rabites at once, and the one you mentioned is the only one that is even theoretically possible. The problem is that you have a pretty good chance of getting hit while pushing the rabites together, and if that happens, it suddenly loses a whole lot of time. I'd take the 3 second hit at the last flower and be done with it. There was one that I did not test because it's unreliable, and that's when you get 2 rabites near the end of the 1st rabite area. I think those would be faster to kill if you can get them together. The idea would go along the lines of slash the bushes, move around the rabites and keep them together if possible, then hit once at 100%. While you kill them, a 3rd rabite will come on the screen from the bottom left corner, and then you'd kill it. I'm not even certain this is faster, but it's possible. Either way, if 2 rabites appear there you will want to kill them because they will despawn the last rabite you would ordinarily kill in this screen.

Quote:

Assumptions and beliefs? You mean something along the lines, if you level up some of them will only count as half? That's possible.

That's not quite what I meant, but that's a good consideration to keep in mind. I more was thinking about certain kills and that they'd be guaranteed to be in the final versions of the kills list, but like I said, I'll save assumptions for when I actually get around to proving them.

[quote="Yagamoth"][quote]Edit2: One thing I tested recently is the opening kills for getting the lvl 1 sword leveled up.  It turns out that despawning the flower after the 2nd bridge and dashing up to the water palace saves 3 seconds.  Unfortunately, there are no rabites outside of the 7 we already kill that take under 3 seconds to kill.  Therefore, I'm willing to say that the kills for the lvl 1 sword are complete and set in stone (for now).  Next up: confirming the kills for leveling up the spear, and then onto the lvl 2 sword after that.[/quote]

Thank you for figuring that out. Did you also consider killing two Rabites at once in some places? (Say, the 2 when entering the 2-bridges-screen)[/quote]
I did test where I could with 2 rabites at once, and the one you mentioned is the only one that is even theoretically possible.  The problem is that you have a pretty good chance of getting hit while pushing the rabites together, and if that happens, it suddenly loses a whole lot of time.  I'd take the 3 second hit at the last flower and be done with it.  There was one that I did not test because it's unreliable, and that's when you get 2 rabites near the end of the 1st rabite area.  I think those would be faster to kill if you can get them together.  The idea would go along the lines of slash the bushes, move around the rabites and keep them together if possible, then hit once at 100%.  While you kill them, a 3rd rabite will come on the screen from the bottom left corner, and then you'd kill it.  I'm not even certain this is faster, but it's possible.  Either way, if 2 rabites appear there you will want to kill them because they will despawn the last rabite you would ordinarily kill in this screen.

[quote]Assumptions and beliefs? You mean something along the lines, if you level up some of them will only count as half? That's possible.[/quote]That's not quite what I meant, but that's a good consideration to keep in mind.  I more was thinking about certain kills and that they'd be guaranteed to be in the final versions of the kills list, but like I said, I'll save assumptions for when I actually get around to proving them.