Secret of Mana

2013-10-24 07:23:40 am

Speed > Safety

Thanks for the break down of the the status effects. Like you said, probably not gonna work due to how timers seem to work. Oh well, I might look into replicating the imp > chest shake thing though some time if I get bored enough. If anything, it'd be a funny lockup to show off, hahaha.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-24 12:19:49 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-10-24 08:27:36 am

2013-10-24 07:30:56 am

INTJ

I agree on the show off ^^

There is another one we can take to crash the game, but it wouldn't be as interesting. Also... In case we figured out the chest-thing.. I still have hopes for an early Flammie Drum Wink

Edit: Also, the 'crash' basically executes arbitrary code depending on position of the characters. I have no idea however, how this is defined. Slim chance: Wrong warp to credits could be a thing if someone would figure that out Wink

Edit 2: Also I agree... Apart from the looks, gameplay to an extent and "Secret of.."-part those games have barely anything in common :/

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-29 06:05:50 am

2013-10-29 05:45:57 am

INTJ

After thinking about the menus for a while: I'm reasonably certain now, that it's more optimal to do the controlled overcharge at Spiky Tiger instead of using the AI overcharge.

Note: Using quotes for highlighting

Quote:

AI consequences:
- Barrel Girl
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Set AI to Charge level 2
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Attack order the AI
- Equip Whip on Boy to erase the AI charge-order
~~- Equip the spear on the Boy~~
~~- Equip the sword on the Girl~~
~~- Equip whip on Sprite~~

Controlled consequences:
- Barrel Sprite & Select Sprite before entering with 2nd controller so he doesn't walk away
~~- Equip spear on Boy~~
~~- Equip sword on Girl~~
- Swap weapons
- Swap weapons
~~- Equip whip on Sprite~~

So... Crossing out what is the same in both cases leaves us with this comparison:

Quote:

- Barrel Girl
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Set AI to Charge level 2
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Equip Whip to erase the AI charge-order

vs

- Barrel Sprite & Select Sprite before entering with 2nd controller so he doesn't walk away
- Swap weapons
- Swap weapons

- The different Barrel-use arguably has no influence - the same in theory. It will probably result in a slightly different strategy, but that's about it.
- So... Two weapon swaps are most likely quicker than the whole ordeal of ordering & additional equipping. I didn't time it, but it sounds correct to me

Objections?

Edit: Actually... Thinking about it some more - it's a waste of time to give the Whip to the Sprite and then later back to the Axe - since it's 2 menu movements to get from magic to the weapons.. Probably better to keep the Axe on the Sprite and use the Whip on the Girl

After thinking about the menus for a while: I'm reasonably certain now, that it's more optimal to do the controlled overcharge at Spiky Tiger instead of using the AI overcharge.

Note: Using quotes for highlighting

[quote]
AI consequences:
- Barrel Girl
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Set AI to Charge level 2
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Attack order the AI
- Equip Whip on Boy to erase the AI charge-order
[s]- Equip the spear on the Boy[/s]
[s]- Equip the sword on the Girl[/s]
[s]- Equip whip on Sprite[/s]

Controlled consequences:
- Barrel Sprite & Select Sprite before entering with 2nd controller so he doesn't walk away
[s]- Equip spear on Boy[/s]
[s]- Equip sword on Girl[/s]
- Swap weapons
- Swap weapons
[s]- Equip whip on Sprite[/s]
[/quote]

So... Crossing out what is the same in both cases leaves us with this comparison:

[quote]
- Barrel Girl
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Set AI to Charge level 2
- Set AI to Charge level 1
- Equip Whip to erase the AI charge-order

vs

- Barrel Sprite & Select Sprite before entering with 2nd controller so he doesn't walk away
- Swap weapons
- Swap weapons
[/quote]

- The different Barrel-use arguably has no influence - the same in theory. It will probably result in a slightly different strategy, but that's about it.
- So... Two weapon swaps are most likely quicker than the whole ordeal of ordering & additional equipping. I didn't time it, but it sounds correct to me

Objections?

Edit: Actually... Thinking about it some more - it's a waste of time to give the Whip to the Sprite and then later back to the Axe - since it's 2 menu movements to get from magic to the weapons.. Probably better to keep the Axe on the Sprite and use the Whip on the Girl

Crow!

2013-10-29 08:08:09 am

What's that gemma?

Something odd happened to me recently. Probably has no applications, but you never know.

I had low HP going into the Dwarf Village, so I used the following backup strat:
Buy Herb before 2x Candy
Use Candy
Continue with shopping glitch

Ordinarily, what happens here is I do the shopping and then I get stunned to gain 100HP afterward. This time, however, I briefly went into the "I just got HP woot!" animation as I talked to the shopkeeper, and when I was done shopping, the blue 100 appeared on top of me and yet I was able to walk around, dragging the numbers along with me.

StingerPA

2013-10-29 08:09:41 am

Crow, I've done that before, but I haven't been able to replicate it since. Were you recording the run when it happened? I think a video of it could be nice if you have the time to put one up on youtube or something.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-29 08:34:26 am

2013-10-29 08:29:44 am

INTJ

^
I remember Stinger mentioning something along those lines, but I have never seen this so far. It sounds like you skipped the animation -just- before the hp gain would've taken place.

Quote from HHS:

The game has a 5 frame cycle where it does the following:
Frame 1: Animate enemy 1 or NPC 1, 2, 3, sort sprites
Frame 2: Check if level 8 spell has ended, animate enemy 2 or NPC 4, 5, 6
Frame 3: Animate enemy 3 or NPC 7, 8, 9, process various buttons
Frame 4: Run game script, animate players, animate the man's weapon
Frame 5: Perform tinting, animate the woman's and the sprite's weapon

I still have hopes for skipping the Pure Lands with only 1 controller. This might be an entry point.. Although I have the suspicion, that disconnecting the animation (hp gained!) and the event (hp filled up) is a different type of event compared to say, the Flammie Drum.. But it might be worth a try, playing around calling Flammie while trying to talk to Neko while the hp-gain animation is supposed to be playing?

I don't know, something along those lines.

Also.. I totally forgot something I wanted to test. Yesterday I managed to use the Magic Rope as the Boy after a weapon swing and then he started walking during the Magic Rope animation. I wonder what would happen if you walked into a trigger or something like that, doing that. Or if that also would work with a Flammie Drum (Highly unlikely).

^
I remember Stinger mentioning something along those lines, but I have never seen this so far. It sounds like you skipped the animation -just- before the hp gain would've taken place.

[quote="HHS"]
The game has a 5 frame cycle where it does the following: 
 Frame 1: Animate enemy 1 or NPC 1, 2, 3, sort sprites 
 Frame 2: Check if level 8 spell has ended, animate enemy 2 or NPC 4, 5, 6 
 Frame 3: Animate enemy 3 or NPC 7, 8, 9, process various buttons 
 Frame 4: Run game script, animate players, animate the man's weapon 
 Frame 5: Perform tinting, animate the woman's and the sprite's weapon[/quote]

I still have hopes for skipping the Pure Lands with only 1 controller. This might be an entry point.. Although I have the suspicion, that disconnecting the animation (hp gained!) and the event (hp filled up) is a different type of event compared to say, the Flammie Drum.. But it might be worth a try, playing around calling Flammie while trying to talk to Neko while the hp-gain animation is supposed to be playing?

I don't know, something along those lines.

Also.. I totally forgot something I wanted to test. Yesterday I managed to use the Magic Rope as the Boy after a weapon swing and then he started walking during the Magic Rope animation. I wonder what would happen if you walked into a trigger or something like that, doing that. Or if that also would work with a Flammie Drum (Highly unlikely).

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-10-29 05:30:30 pm

StingerPA: 2013-10-29 05:27:54 pm

2013-10-29 11:11:14 am

Yaga, I've confirmed that using the 2 controller method is approximately 9 seconds faster than the 1c method on Spikey. A consistent (I think) way to ensure that Spikey eats the barrel is to start charging immediately, and hold Down-Left. Make sure that the 2nd controller is enabled so you can move the Girl to the right to avoid damage. Spikey will land on the boy and knock him away (or knock him out, hopefully that doesn't happen), but the barrel remains in place on the left side where Spikey is. Spikey will eat the barrel unless he jumps away, and that gives enough time for the overcharge to get up to speed. Also, you should charge up at least to the first mini-bar to ensure you do enough damage to kill him, but you might still get a low damage roll and fail, so it would be safer to get up to the normal ranges we use.

Here's a couple things to think about in terms of the menus. These times will vary a few frames because fuck frame rules.

Open and Close the menus - ~80 Frames
Moving up or down 1 ring - ~30 Frames
Moving between items on a ring - varies, one full rotation = 60 frames, so however many items are on the ring divided into 60, so menu and weapon rings are ~7.5 frames per movement.

Also, it is 2 seconds faster to start the overcharge by charging up the sword to level 2 instead of using the menu to automatically charge it up by charging the spear to level 1, then swapping to the sword. Therefore, it is faster to enter certain boss fights with the sword. However, this does change certain timings since there will be less time that bosses will be unable to make actions. Think of it as Game Time vs Real Time. In real time, the best method is to charge the sword up first, but this gives bosses more Game Time to make actions since less time is spent in the menus where he is frozen. Game Time excludes the time spent in menus since bosses and enemies are unable to make actions. For instance, the quick kill is impossible on Fire Gigas by entering with the sword. Since Fire Gigas has more time to make his actions, he attacks the party before the spear is overcharged enough to kill him. We would still want to enter this fight with the spear unless a solution can be found with the sword.

We should start working out new boss strategies where we need to make use of this. Right now I can expect that Fire and Frost Gigas will remain the same with entering the fight with the spear equipped. These bosses I expect to remain the same since they don't do anything within their RNGs that would require us to need a charge up faster (in terms of game time): Tonpole, Wall Face, Spring Beak, Mech Rider I, Boreal Face, Minotaur, Mech Rider II, Watermelon, Snap Dragon, Mech Rider III, Dread Slime, Dark Lich. The bosses that might need some small adjustments to be faster are:

Kilroy (maybe he'll get down far enough to hit us with his extra time?)
Jabberwocky (gives him extra time to fuck us in the ass)
Great Viper (same as Jabberwocky)
Doom's Wall (can cast Cure Water immediately, which the spear can attack before, but the sword wouldn't be able to)
Vampire (I don't know how charging the sword up will change the early timings with lockdown)
Hexas (might be able to do something before the first attack, not sure)
Buffy (Same as Vampire)

I can come up with a couple ideas for these bosses, like using a lesser attack against Doom's Wall since he only has 1180 HP, which means you don't need to max out damage against him. Vampire and Buffy might remain the same on the timings, so that would be nice. Hexas could be in the same boat as well. Kilroy might not be an issue either since he's relatively harmless unless he were to be able to walk down far enough to hammer the party and moogle everyone. Jabberwocky and Great Viper could present the biggest problem, though. They will each have more time to attack us, and they are both quite deadly when given the right RNG and opportunity.

That's enough for now. I'm going to start from scratch on menus to try and incorporate new sword strategies into this. I will also start my TAS from the beginning as well, or at least I'll go back to Elinee's Castle to work stuff out from there. I will not include going through the path to Gaia's Navel after Fire Gigas or after Wall Face in this new TAS because I believe those are near impossible to do in a run faster than going to the cannon travel. Here is what I've done so far. The TAS ends at Vampire.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/109492687/Secret%20of%20Mana%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D%20-%2010.smv

Edit: Basically this entire post is wrong. See posts below for why. Enjoy the WIP TAS anyways.

Yaga, I've confirmed that using the 2 controller method is approximately 9 seconds faster than the 1c method on Spikey.  A consistent (I think) way to ensure that Spikey eats the barrel is to start charging immediately, and hold Down-Left. Make sure that the 2nd controller is enabled so you can move the Girl to the right to avoid damage. Spikey will land on the boy and knock him away (or knock him out, hopefully that doesn't happen), but the barrel remains in place on the left side where Spikey is.  Spikey will eat the barrel unless he jumps away, and that gives enough time for the overcharge to get up to speed.  Also, you should charge up at least to the first mini-bar to ensure you do enough damage to kill him, but you might still get a low damage roll and fail, so it would be safer to get up to the normal ranges we use.

Here's a couple things to think about in terms of the menus.  These times will vary a few frames because fuck frame rules.

Open and Close the menus - ~80 Frames
Moving up or down 1 ring - ~30 Frames
Moving between items on a ring - varies, one full rotation = 60 frames, so however many items are on the ring divided into 60, so menu and weapon rings are ~7.5 frames per movement.

[s]Also, it is 2 seconds faster to start the overcharge by charging up the sword to level 2 instead of using the menu to automatically charge it up by charging the spear to level 1, then swapping to the sword.  Therefore, it is faster to enter certain boss fights with the sword.  However, this does change certain timings since there will be less time that bosses will be unable to make actions. Think of it as Game Time vs Real Time.  In real time, the best method is to charge the sword up first, but this gives bosses more Game Time to make actions since less time is spent in the menus where he is frozen.  Game Time excludes the time spent in menus since bosses and enemies are unable to make actions.  For instance, the quick kill is impossible on Fire Gigas by entering with the sword.  Since Fire Gigas has more time to make his actions, he attacks the party before the spear is overcharged enough to kill him.  We would still want to enter this fight with the spear unless a solution can be found with the sword.

We should start working out new boss strategies where we need to make use of this.  Right now I can expect that Fire and Frost Gigas will remain the same with entering the fight with the spear equipped.  These bosses I expect to remain the same since they don't do anything within their RNGs that would require us to need a charge up faster (in terms of game time): Tonpole, Wall Face, Spring Beak, Mech Rider I, Boreal Face, Minotaur, Mech Rider II, Watermelon, Snap Dragon, Mech Rider III, Dread Slime, Dark Lich.  The bosses that might need some small adjustments to be faster are:

Kilroy (maybe he'll get down far enough to hit us with his extra time?)
Jabberwocky (gives him extra time to fuck us in the ass)
Great Viper (same as Jabberwocky)
Doom's Wall (can cast Cure Water immediately, which the spear can attack before, but the sword wouldn't be able to)
Vampire (I don't know how charging the sword up will change the early timings with lockdown)
Hexas (might be able to do something before the first attack, not sure)
Buffy (Same as Vampire)

I can come up with a couple ideas for these bosses, like using a lesser attack against Doom's Wall since he only has 1180 HP, which means you don't need to max out damage against him.  Vampire and Buffy might remain the same on the timings, so that would be nice.  Hexas could be in the same boat as well.  Kilroy might not be an issue either since he's relatively harmless unless he were to be able to walk down far enough to hammer the party and moogle everyone. Jabberwocky and Great Viper could present the biggest problem, though.  They will each have more time to attack us, and they are both quite deadly when given the right RNG and opportunity.[/s]

That's enough for now.  I'm going to start from scratch on menus to try and incorporate new sword strategies into this.  I will also start my TAS from the beginning as well, or at least I'll go back to Elinee's Castle to work stuff out from there.  I will not include going through the path to Gaia's Navel after Fire Gigas or after Wall Face in this new TAS because I believe those are near impossible to do in a run faster than going to the cannon travel.  Here is what I've done so far.  The TAS ends at Vampire.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/109492687/Secret%20of%20Mana%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D%20-%2010.smv

Edit: Basically this entire post is wrong.  See posts below for why.  Enjoy the WIP TAS anyways.

Yagamoth

2013-10-29 12:12:28 pm

INTJ

Question: where do you actually save time with this strategy? The times we have to compare here are merely 1 swap vs charging up a second bar.... No, actually, the amount of swaps remains the exact same over the course of the game minus one. So... Either I miss something or you neglect the point where you have to swap back to the sword anyways after the hit)

StingerPA

2013-10-29 12:49:35 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

Question: where do you actually save time with this strategy? The times we have to compare here are merely 1 swap vs charging up a second bar.... No, actually, the amount of swaps remains the exact same over the course of the game minus one. So... Either I miss something or you neglect the point where you have to swap back to the sword anyways after the hit)

You're partially right, I didn't account for having to swap back to the sword after boss fights. Spikey is the fight I tested this on, and I forgot that you naturally have the sword equipped when entering there. Instead of it saving 2 seconds, it's reduced to 40 frames. Here's the way I tested it. I did the first test with the way we normally do the overcharge, starting with the spear. I charged up to the standard slash we normally use, and that took 600 frames from beginning the charge to achieving the point of the normal slash. Next, I started with the spear out, and changed to the sword, charged up the sword, swapped to the spear, and it took a total of 560 frames to achieve the exact same charge attack I used in the first test. So it is less than I anticipated, but still a time saver.

[quote="Yagamoth"]Question: where do you actually save time with this strategy? The times we have to compare here are merely 1 swap vs charging up a second bar.... No, actually, the amount of swaps remains the exact same over the course of the game minus one. So... Either I miss something or you neglect the point where you have to swap back to the sword anyways after the hit)[/quote]
You're partially right, I didn't account for having to swap back to the sword after boss fights.  Spikey is the fight I tested this on, and I forgot that you naturally have the sword equipped when entering there.  Instead of it saving 2 seconds, it's reduced to 40 frames.  Here's the way I tested it.  I did the first test with the way we normally do the overcharge, starting with the spear.  I charged up to the standard slash we normally use, and that took 600 frames from beginning the charge to achieving the point of the normal slash.  Next, I started with the spear out, and changed to the sword, charged up the sword, swapped to the spear, and it took a total of 560 frames to achieve the exact same charge attack I used in the first test.  So it is less than I anticipated, but still a time saver.

Yagamoth

2013-10-29 01:09:40 pm

INTJ

So, charging up a bar is 40 frames faster than swapping once?

Crow!

2013-10-29 02:28:52 pm

What's that gemma?

You have to swap twice per boss fight since you get the overcharge by going from sword to spear, unless there is some way to get the sword onto the boy without swapping. So you might as well get a free charge level 1 >> charge level 2 while you're at it.

The two clear exceptions are spikey tiger and the Mana Beast, because you start those fights with the sword equipped.

The two cases where the girl is kicked out of your party might apply too - you might be able to equip the sword without bothering with the swapping animation here. Or maybe the game doesn't let you swap, I'm not sure.

Yagamoth

2013-10-29 03:06:50 pm

INTJ

Quote from Crow!:

You have to swap twice per boss fight since you get the overcharge by going from sword to spear, unless there is some way to get the sword onto the boy without swapping. So you might as well get a free charge level 1 >> charge level 2 while you're at it.

^
I agree

As far as I know, if you equip the weapon while the Girl is not in the party, the swapping animation will swap with something off screen. Havent done that in a while though, not sure

StingerPA

2013-10-29 04:44:43 pm

Ok, I've done more testing since I got back home. It appears that I might have overreacted to what I saw in the Spikey fight and thought I had stumbled into something. Sorry for wasting everyone's day with a tantalizing option that is dead. I'll do some in depth explaining below.

Generally Optimal: Begin charging with the spear out without having to slash or open a menu. This is when you are holding B down at the beginning of a fight to avoid slashing to begin the 100% charge-up.

Secondary Option: To avoid the 100% charge-up, open the menu with the spear out and close it immediately. This is ~5 frames faster than swapping to the Sword at this point, and ~50 frames faster than slashing. You would still slash to start the charge if you have 50+ frames of game time that you'll need to wait before using the charge again, so you'd still want to slash on, say, Boreal Face to keep the boss moving until you can hit it again.

Now, let's get into why I was completely wrong about this. The process I was following was this:

With our traditional method: charge spear, swap, swap, release
With the sword: swap, charge sword, swap, release

Where I thought I was gaining time was when I tested originally, I slashed the spear to begin the 100% charge-up. Using the sword is indeed faster by the previously mentioned ~40 frames if you compare it to slashing the spear and avoid the sword's own 100% charge-up period.

tl;dr: I screwed up, using the spear is ~90 frames faster than using the sword. smv's are attached below. They are ordered by speed, 1 is the fastest, 5 is the slowest.

Ok, I've done more testing since I got back home.  It appears that I [i]might[/i] have overreacted to what I saw in the Spikey fight and thought I had stumbled into something.  Sorry for wasting everyone's day with a tantalizing option that is dead.  I'll do some in depth explaining below.

Generally Optimal: Begin charging with the spear out without having to slash or open a menu.  This is when you are holding B down at the beginning of a fight to avoid slashing to begin the 100% charge-up.

Secondary Option: To avoid the 100% charge-up, open the menu with the spear out and close it immediately.  This is ~5 frames faster than swapping to the Sword at this point, and ~50 frames faster than slashing.  You would still slash to start the charge if you have 50+ frames of game time that you'll need to wait before using the charge again, so you'd still want to slash on, say, Boreal Face to keep the boss moving until you can hit it again.

Now, let's get into why I was completely wrong about this.  The process I was following was this:

With our traditional method: charge spear, swap, swap, release
With the sword: swap, charge sword, swap, release

Where I thought I was gaining time was when I tested originally, I slashed the spear to begin the 100% charge-up.  Using the sword is indeed faster by the previously mentioned ~40 frames if you compare it to slashing the spear and avoid the sword's own 100% charge-up period.

tl;dr: I screwed up, using the spear is ~90 frames faster than using the sword.  smv's are attached below. They are ordered by speed, 1 is the fastest, 5 is the slowest.

Attachments:

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-29 05:18:45 pm

2013-10-29 05:17:51 pm

INTJ

Thank you for your effort Smiley

I make those mistakes all the time. I wrote a ton of paragraphs in here which shortly after got deleted because I realized I made a simple mistake in my thought process Wink

Using the menu instead of slash is faster for charging? Good to know. Thanks a lot for those frame datas, I can use them nicely in my menu optimization sheet. I really want to clean up those menus. Not simply because I still haven't learned when to press 'up' and when to press 'down', but also because I think we can easily gain half a minute by planning all the menus.. The main problem would be to figure out how to optimally use items along the way when necessary.

StingerPA

2013-10-29 05:38:05 pm

For items, I'm not sure who would be the best for it. My initial thought was the Boy since he's the one I'm primarily having use the item ring since the Girl and Sprite have to be on the weapon and magic rings predominantly. But on the other hand, he's generally the one being targeted in the first place.

We should get together sometime and just brainstorm over the menus for about an hour. I'm still going to go over the menus from scratch since I think I missed quite a bit.

One more thing that's now only useful for 1c runs. Barreling the sprite is faster before spikey instead of the girl. This is because if you do miss the frame trick to make the barreled character walk at normal speed, the sprite begins to walk a little bit earlier than the girl does.

Yagamoth

2013-10-30 03:53:05 am

INTJ

How long does it take to swap a weapon with another person?

StingerPA

2013-10-30 08:12:39 am

It's about 65 frames to swap characters, not including the menu time. When you include that, it's closer to 140 frames.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-30 08:38:31 am

2013-10-30 08:25:21 am

INTJ

Thank you - I assume it's swapping weapons despite what your wrote? ^^

Edit: I'm only looking for approx. numbers anyway. I'm going to post my spreadsheet soon-ish

Yagamoth

2013-10-30 08:40:17 am

INTJ

I can't figure out how to properly share a document on gmail - so I have it in the attachment here.

In that spreadsheet I started trying to figure out all the menus at all times for optimal circumstances

Attachment:

some notes.xls

StingerPA

2013-10-30 11:37:35 am

I did mean weapon swaps. I shouldn't post when I wake up in the mornings.

I'll check on that spreadsheet when I get home today. I can probably put a lot of my own ideas in there.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2013-10-30 03:46:44 pm

2013-10-30 03:07:05 pm

I fixed a couple of numbers and added some lines. Good work on the spreadsheet. Remember that it's only 7-8 frames to move 1 item within a ring if there's 8 items within that ring. That won't be a problem soon with weapons, but we only have a max of 6 item slots taken up in a 1p2c run.

Edit: Here's a google doc with the spreadsheet set up. Let me know if there's any issues editing it.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiBzZgnKmNXddDh0NUczZEgzSjluTlBoNG1pRFhjUEE&usp=sharing

Attachment:

some notes.xls

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-30 03:55:10 pm

2013-10-30 03:48:19 pm

INTJ

Excellent, thanks a lot - editing works

Once we include the complete route, this should be the basic outline and give further information on how optimal menus should look.

Also, on a slightly related note: When we need to open the specific menu of a character which isn't currently selected AND we know that if we press X, the menu of the other character will open --> Press start on the 2nd controller to and either use the menu from the 2nd controller or then press X on the first controller to open the other characters menu.
Example: Using the menu of the Sprite at the start of the Earth temple to cast Freeze if you have the Boy selected.

I think, it would also be faster to hit select twice and then open the menu as opposed to hitting X twice. But that's only a guess.

If only my explanations weren't so horribly convoluted oô

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-30 06:08:59 pm

2013-10-30 05:53:54 pm

INTJ

I'll have soon completed the outline of the run, you may want to copy and correct that

Edit: Complete so far. Probably a few errors in there as usual

StingerPA

2013-10-30 10:54:37 pm

Good point on using the 2nd controller to manipulate the menus. I'm not sure how many places that we can easily use that, but at the very least we can use it at the underground palace like you said.

Here's another thing we haven't accounted for. When you equip a weapon or use an item, you actually close the menu faster than you ordinarily would be able to. It is the exact same speed to simply open/close the menu as it is to open, move 1 space over and equip a weapon. The calculation currently says it would take ~88 frames for that movement when in reality it was 78 in my test, so we can approximate that to be a 10 frame difference.

More tests showed that it was about a 25 frame difference, so I adjusted the menu time formula on my own sheet to reflect this if a weapon equip/item use does occur. You may want to double check the formula I used to see if it makes sense.

Also, I noticed a few things you left out of your own sheet, like the magic rope out of Gaia's Navel the first time. I'll be working on mine as we go along, and we'll see how it turns out.

Good point on using the 2nd controller to manipulate the menus.  I'm not sure how many places that we can easily use that, but at the very least we can use it at the underground palace like you said.

Here's another thing we haven't accounted for.  When you equip a weapon or use an item, you actually close the menu faster than you ordinarily would be able to.  It is the exact same speed to simply open/close the menu as it is to open, move 1 space over and equip a weapon. The calculation currently says it would take ~88 frames for that movement when in reality it was 78 in my test, so we can approximate that to be a 10 frame difference.

More tests showed that it was about a 25 frame difference, so I adjusted the menu time formula on my own sheet to reflect this if a weapon equip/item use does occur.  You may want to double check the formula I used to see if it makes sense.

Also, I noticed a few things you left out of your own sheet, like the magic rope out of Gaia's Navel the first time.  I'll be working on mine as we go along, and we'll see how it turns out.

Yagamoth

2013-10-31 01:45:21 am

INTJ

Right... I noticed some actions from the menu are faster than others. Specifically we know, that using the "Target" command is extremely fast which let's us advance to the next frame for a charge attack buffer if needed.

Also, this would explain why it's so odd to use menu specific actions to buffer the overcharge since we have to re-press B while the menu is closing. When it's closing so fast the window is small.