Secret of Mana

2013-07-03 10:42:41 am

Yeah, the gold city equipment cost me about 2-3 minutes, so that can easily be taken off now. I won't be getting it anymore. My problem splits were Spring Beak (a little bit of trolling there), Mech Rider 1 crossed once, so that's 20 seconds to be saved, Doom's Wall nearly ended the run since I still screw up on him and kill the eyes, but I had a decent run through the ruins, and the sewers could've been worse. Other issues were Metal Mantis (I got a bad charge attack), Hexas (kinda-sorta, it wasn't as bad as it could've been), and the Mana Fortress as a whole wasn't very good. Buffy trolled the shit out of me, and Dark Lich did the same. I did have a 2 cycle Mana Beast, but I had to improvise and waste time because I ran out of magic on the Girl.

Overall, it was just a very consistent run with no major issues anywhere that cost me more than 1 minute at a time until the very end with the Dark Lich. I was really just so surprised throughout the run that it was going as well as it did. I was nervous as hell for the entire time after the Watermelon when I was officially ahead of the WR, so that had an effect on a couple of splits.

As a side note, my best splits are now a 2:17, and that can definitely be dropped a notch or two. 2:15 should be a very realistic goal.

Yeah, the gold city equipment cost me about 2-3 minutes, so that can easily be taken off now.  I won't be getting it anymore.  My problem splits were Spring Beak (a little bit of trolling there), Mech Rider 1 crossed once, so that's 20 seconds to be saved, Doom's Wall nearly ended the run since I still screw up on him and kill the eyes, but I had a decent run through the ruins, and the sewers could've been worse.  Other issues were Metal Mantis (I got a bad charge attack), Hexas (kinda-sorta, it wasn't as bad as it could've been), and the Mana Fortress as a whole wasn't very good.  Buffy trolled the shit out of me, and Dark Lich did the same.  I did have a 2 cycle Mana Beast, but I had to improvise and waste time because I ran out of magic on the Girl.

Overall, it was just a very consistent run with no major issues anywhere that cost me more than 1 minute at a time until the very end with the Dark Lich.  I was really just so surprised throughout the run that it was going as well as it did.  I was nervous as hell for the entire time after the Watermelon when I was officially ahead of the WR, so that had an effect on a couple of splits.

As a side note, my best splits are now a 2:17, and that can definitely be dropped a notch or two.  2:15 should be a very realistic goal.

Yagamoth

2013-07-03 11:22:17 am

INTJ

My sum of best segments is currently at 2:12:40... I'd go as far and say 2:10 is a very realistic goal. Also, the more 2-player strats we implement (such as proper Spell-Rope-Pole-walk or even simply controlling 2 players at once in specific dungeon rooms to get past enemies) the better we'll get.

StingerPA

2013-07-03 01:56:45 pm

I think there's more to be gained in manipulating your AI characters correctly than trying to control 2 players at once. There's quite a bit of variety you can create with just one controller in manipulating despawns and generally getting your AI to cooperate.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-07-03 03:31:47 pm

2013-07-03 03:23:19 pm

INTJ

Well, that as well. It simply will have to be determined on an area by area basis. Optimally we'd be able to activate 2 controllers before every map transition to gain that half second every time... But that's still far off I guess.

Btw. I have a really reliable strategy to get the Watermelon without a Midge Mallet. With this I'm reasonably certain it's a good call to leave out getting the Midge Mallet entirely.

The Watermlon strategy looks like this:

1) Push the Sprite towards the middle of the body at the beginning of the fight
2) Position the Girl behind the Sprite, so she will clearly NOT get hit by spells
3) Get a normal slash Charge - very important for timing (and speed)
3.1) I recommend going for my timing, since it's guaranteed to do around 980 damage and is quicker than waiting another round like your normal (plus it's roughly a 4 frame window... so it's very lenient)
4) Hit the Slash at every opportunity (I recommend practicing the fight a fair bit to get a feel for when you can actually hit the Watermelon reliably)
5) Immediately after releasing the Slash cast heal on the Sprite as early as possible (re-open the menu asap), you will -just- be quick enough to catch the charge before it goes too high
5.1) Alternatively you can cast heal on everyone, since that will stop the charge meter from going too high... But I didn't test that enough whether it still works out
5.2) You don't have to cast after every Slash, since usually the Watermelon will chain the spells quick enough for you to more or less revive the Sprite after 0 HP

I currently have roughly an 80% chance of killing it.

I assume the same thing will work on the Mana Beast and Dark Lich if necessary.

Also one more minor improvement to your route -> After you perform the invisibility glitch, don't only heal the Boy to make him visible, also make the Girl visible at the same time. You can still walk through walls with visible characters as long as a textbox is active and one member is invisible in your party.

Well, that as well. It simply will have to be determined on an area by area basis. Optimally we'd be able to activate 2 controllers before every map transition to gain that half second every time... But that's still far off I guess.

Btw. I have a really reliable strategy to get the Watermelon without a Midge Mallet. With this I'm reasonably certain it's a good call to leave out getting the Midge Mallet entirely.

The Watermlon strategy looks like this:

1) Push the Sprite towards the middle of the body at the beginning of the fight
2) Position the Girl behind the Sprite, so she will clearly NOT get hit by spells
3) Get a normal slash Charge - very important for timing (and speed)
3.1) I recommend going for my timing, since it's guaranteed to do around 980 damage and is quicker than waiting another round like your normal (plus it's roughly a 4 frame window... so it's very lenient)
4) Hit the Slash at every opportunity (I recommend practicing the fight a fair bit to get a feel for when you can actually hit the Watermelon reliably)
5) Immediately after releasing the Slash cast heal on the Sprite as early as possible (re-open the menu asap), you will -just- be quick enough to catch the charge before it goes too high
5.1) Alternatively you can cast heal on everyone, since that will stop the charge meter from going too high... But I didn't test that enough whether it still works out
5.2) You don't have to cast after every Slash, since usually the Watermelon will chain the spells quick enough for you to more or less revive the Sprite after 0 HP

I currently have roughly an 80% chance of killing it.

I assume the same thing will work on the Mana Beast and Dark Lich if necessary.

Also one more minor improvement to your route -> After you perform the invisibility glitch, don't only heal the Boy to make him visible, also make the Girl visible at the same time. You can still walk through walls with visible characters as long as a textbox is active and one member is invisible in your party.

StingerPA

2013-07-03 06:57:28 pm

I just tested that out, and it really seems like overkill to me. I did appreciate keeping the sprite near the Watermelon and having the Girl available for healing if needed. I basically just modified your strategy to eliminate all of the extra healing you're requiring. My method went as:

1) Push the Sprite towards the middle of the body at the beginning of the fight
2) Position the Girl behind the Sprite, so she will clearly NOT get hit by spells
3) Get a normal slash Charge - very important for timing (and speed) (this is right around charge level #3)
4) Slash at every opportunity
5) When the Sprite is targeted with Burst, use a Candy/Chocolate/Royal Jam on him. Ignore Sleep Flower. This is faster than casting and will give you more slashes.

This seemed to be a 100% reliable way to beat him. I never had to use more than 2 items on the Sprite. But then again, it's practice. Things always go well in practice.

As for leaving the midge mallet out entirely, we can see how that goes. It's incredibly useful for Hexas and the Mana Fortress so it might be a bit more hazardous than I'd like for runs.

Also, I was looking at the Joch Skip and figured out how the co-op run set it up. The basic steps are:

1) Move the Boy to the top wall above Joch and start charging the sword. The Boy must be facing Up.
2) Move the Girl to talk to Joch. Her vertical position does not matter.
3) Do the standard release and talk while the sword is charged at Level 1

This seemed to be a lot quicker than the old method of overcharging the spear to get across.

I just tested that out, and it really seems like overkill to me.  I did appreciate keeping the sprite near the Watermelon and having the Girl available for healing if needed.  I basically just modified your strategy to eliminate all of the extra healing you're requiring.  My method went as:

1) Push the Sprite towards the middle of the body at the beginning of the fight
2) Position the Girl behind the Sprite, so she will clearly NOT get hit by spells
3) Get a normal slash Charge - very important for timing (and speed) (this is right around charge level #3)
4) Slash at every opportunity
5) When the Sprite is targeted with Burst, use a Candy/Chocolate/Royal Jam on him.  Ignore Sleep Flower.  This is faster than casting and will give you more slashes.

This seemed to be a 100% reliable way to beat him.  I never had to use more than 2 items on the Sprite.  But then again, it's practice.  Things always go well in practice.

As for leaving the midge mallet out entirely, we can see how that goes.  It's incredibly useful for Hexas and the Mana Fortress so it might be a bit more hazardous than I'd like for runs.

Also, I was looking at the Joch Skip and figured out how the co-op run set it up.  The basic steps are:

1) Move the Boy to the top wall above Joch and start charging the sword.  The Boy must be facing Up.
2) Move the Girl to talk to Joch.  Her vertical position does not matter.
3) Do the standard release and talk while the sword is charged at Level 1

This seemed to be a lot quicker than the old method of overcharging the spear to get across.

Yagamoth

2013-07-04 02:33:00 am

INTJ

Having the Sprite directly at the Watermelon mainly serves the purpose, so it doesn't move away - basically the body blocks it.

I also played around a bit more and it turns out - using healing items is considerably easier and more reliable than using Undine heal. So, my strategy would be merely a backup, in case you'd run out of healing items.

I've never heard of that co-op skip method... I'll have to try that. Would be nice not having to worry about getting the correct charge attack - even though I don't quite understand how that is supposed to work.

Hexas is no problem with my strategy - as long as I don't mess it up, I never get hit or pygmy-ed with the boy, and the casting body directly in front of her will absorb all damage without taking any. Recovering from a messup however would be a bit more difficult without a Midge Mallet.

Also, the mana fortress should work out without too much trouble as far as I can tell. Simply remember, that using Dryads wall is very helpful in fights where you want to protect the boy from at least some spells. E.g. I usually cast Wall during the Slime-boss on the Boy. That's usually good enough so I never have to worry about even healing or negating the damage on the other two characters, since he dies quick enough. The main trouble is potentially the Dark Lich, but in my recent attempts I often ignored the use of the Midge Mallet to save time menu-ing and it worked out.

Having the Sprite directly at the Watermelon mainly serves the purpose, so it doesn't move away - basically the body blocks it.

I also played around a bit more and it turns out - using healing items is considerably easier and more reliable than using Undine heal. So, my strategy would be merely a backup, in case you'd run out of healing items.

I've never heard of that co-op skip method... I'll have to try that. Would be nice not having to worry about getting the correct charge attack - even though I don't quite understand how that is supposed to work.

Hexas is no problem with my strategy - as long as I don't mess it up, I never get hit or pygmy-ed with the boy, and the casting body directly in front of her will absorb all damage without taking any. Recovering from a messup however would be a bit more difficult without a Midge Mallet.

Also, the mana fortress should work out without too much trouble as far as I can tell. Simply remember, that using Dryads wall is very helpful in fights where you want to protect the boy from at least some spells. E.g. I usually cast Wall during the Slime-boss on the Boy. That's usually good enough so I never have to worry about even healing or negating the damage on the other two characters, since he dies quick enough. The main trouble is potentially the Dark Lich, but in my recent attempts I often ignored the use of the Midge Mallet to save time menu-ing and it worked out.

StingerPA

2013-07-12 11:56:43 am

I think I just discovered another extension of the rope pole glitch. I was practicing the mountain climbing on console when this first happened. I was setting up the first clip, and when I tested the boys position to see if he'd hit the rope pole, the sprite was hit and the girl walked through the upper left area to end up at the rope pole above and to the left of me.

The way this happens is player 1 hitting a rope pole at the same time player 2 is taking damage, and that allows player 3 to walk through the walls. I tested to see if I could do this with damaging enemies, and that doesn't appear to have any effect. Has this been known before, and do you think we could incorporate this into the run on purpose? I did it by complete accident, and you do have to rely on an AI character getting hit if you want to control where the 3rd player goes. I was able to set it up for that very first clip, but it seems to be incredibly unreliable.

On a related note, while I was mashing attack on the rope pole to try and get this to work, somehow the sprite managed to get himself stuck in the middle of nowhere. I think it's because there was an enemy nearby, and he was trying to run away from it.

I think I just discovered another extension of the rope pole glitch. I was practicing the mountain climbing on console when this first happened. I was setting up the first clip, and when I tested the boys position to see if he'd hit the rope pole, the sprite was hit and the girl walked through the upper left area to end up at the rope pole above and to the left of me.

The way this happens is player 1 hitting a rope pole at the same time player 2 is taking damage, and that allows player 3 to walk through the walls.  I tested to see if I could do this with damaging enemies, and that doesn't appear to have any effect.  Has this been known before, and do you think we could incorporate this into the run on purpose?  I did it by complete accident, and you do have to rely on an AI character getting hit if you want to control where the 3rd player goes.  I was able to set it up for that very first clip, but it seems to be incredibly unreliable.

On a related note, while I was mashing attack on the rope pole to try and get this to work, somehow the sprite managed to get himself stuck in the middle of nowhere.  I think it's because there was an enemy nearby, and he was trying to run away from it.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-07-12 12:56:36 pm

2013-07-12 12:47:43 pm

INTJ

It is actually known. What basically happens is - When you hit a rope pole, an "event" activates. The following happens:

1) You hit a rope pole with a weapon

2) Game registers event to start
2.1) The [not AI] players now have no control over their characters anymore (any movement stops, input is not accepted)
2.2) The flag for "walk through walls" is set

3) Game checks, whether anything further should happen (As in - a whip-jump)
3.1) Execute whip-jump if requirements are met (standing on jump-tile).. If not met, simply do nothing
3.2) The game gives back control to the [not AI] players and resets the "walk through walls" flag back to normal

^ Secret of Mana runs on a 5 frame cycle, which means, the start and the end of the event are at least 5 frames apart. I'm not sure how many frames it really is, but basically you have the duration from start to end the event where "walk through walls" is active. Normally you can not do anything during that time, since your control is taken away from the game (2.1). However, action already in progress and non-player-behavior still takes place. This includes:

- AI Movement (backing off from enemies)
- Already-in-progress moves (Charge attacks, Taking damage animation)

You can use that to skip getting the Girl entirely btw. if you didn't know about that. Get the Sword to level 1 with 2 characters and skip over the gap where you normally would need the whip.

Now... Casting magic before activating an event for some weird reason.. ~~hang on, Ill check something and edit in the rest, I just had an idea..~~
K, nothing great came off it. It was about casting into talking with people... But that has no practical use since in most events your characters get repositioned.

Now... Casting magic before activating an event for some weird reason makes you not lose control over your input, which is why you can walk through walls in a controlled way in the fashion we use to climb up Lofty Mountain. Maybe it would be faster/easier, if we'd use a level 1 sword charge to get up the first ledge instead of using magic in between. But I don't know about that.

==========================================
Or do I miss the point and you mean something else entirely?..
==========================================

Btw. chances are high, that if always the same character has the sword swap for the overcharge glitch, he/she will have that sword already at level 1 when you reach the Lofty Mountain.

Oh yeah, which reminds me... For some weird reason, the event before Mech Rider #2 seems to give you weapon experience, since when ENTERING the Mech Rider #2 battle I level up the sword at some point.. I'm not sure what's happening there, but it might be worth taking a look at.

It is actually known. What basically happens is - When you hit a rope pole, an "event" activates. The following happens:

1) You hit a rope pole with a weapon

2) Game registers event to start
2.1) The [not AI] players now have no control over their characters anymore (any movement stops, input is not accepted)
2.2) The flag for "walk through walls" is set

3) Game checks, whether anything further should happen (As in - a whip-jump)
3.1) Execute whip-jump if requirements are met (standing on jump-tile).. If not met, simply do nothing
3.2) The game gives back control to the [not AI] players and resets the "walk through walls" flag back to normal

^ Secret of Mana runs on a 5 frame cycle, which means, the start and the end of the event are at least 5 frames apart. I'm not sure how many frames it really is, but basically you have the duration from start to end the event where "walk through walls" is active. Normally you can not do anything during that time, since your control is taken away from the game (2.1). However, action already in progress and non-player-behavior still takes place. This includes:

- AI Movement (backing off from enemies)
- Already-in-progress moves (Charge attacks, Taking damage animation)

You can use that to skip getting the Girl entirely btw. if you didn't know about that. Get the Sword to level 1 with 2 characters and skip over the gap where you normally would need the whip.

Now... Casting magic before activating an event for some weird reason.. [s]hang on, Ill check something and edit in the rest, I just had an idea..[/s]
K, nothing great came off it. It was about casting into talking with people... But that has no practical use since in most events your characters get repositioned.

Now... Casting magic before activating an event for some weird reason makes you not lose control over your input, which is why you can walk through walls in a controlled way in the fashion we use to climb up Lofty Mountain. Maybe it would be faster/easier, if we'd use a level 1 sword charge to get up the first ledge instead of using magic in between. But I don't know about that.

==========================================
Or do I miss the point and you mean something else entirely?..
==========================================

Btw. chances are high, that if always the same character has the sword swap for the overcharge glitch, he/she will have that sword already at level 1 when you reach the Lofty Mountain.

Oh yeah, which reminds me... For some weird reason, the event before Mech Rider #2 seems to give you weapon experience, since when ENTERING the Mech Rider #2 battle I level up the sword at some point.. I'm not sure what's happening there, but it might be worth taking a look at.

StingerPA

2013-07-14 10:49:16 pm

Well, I screwed up. I was doing a practice run to see how well I was adjusting to controllers and console, and naturally I got a PB because of skipping armor, midge mallet and a shitty Mana Fortress.

It went really well in the beginning with some shopping improvements, and the Spikey segment was almost perfect with no trolling from werewolves or Spikey himself. After Fire Gigas I started losing lots of time. I was -1:30 after Fire Gigas and was -50 before Spring Beak. Spring Beak went really well with the first slash killing him. After that, I lost bunches of time on the next splits, almost 30s each time. Ended up over a minute behind after Mech Rider II, but skipping Gold City and Midge Mallet along with a perfect Watermelon fight gave me a -3:30 segment. Hexas went very well, with a bit of trolling on the last hit. The Mana Fortress was bad again with me losing 1:30 to my best Buffy, almost a minute on Dark Lich, and I had a 3 cycle Mana Beast that cost me another minute.

Hopefully I'll beat it again after I get my capture card in this week so I can have a video this time. Also, my best segments are down to 2:13:01.

Well, I screwed up.  I was doing a practice run to see how well I was adjusting to controllers and console, and naturally I got a PB because of skipping armor, midge mallet and a shitty Mana Fortress.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/5oELkBX.png[/img][img]http://i.imgur.com/w3V9KUJ.png[/img]

It went really well in the beginning with some shopping improvements, and the Spikey segment was almost perfect with no trolling from werewolves or Spikey himself. After Fire Gigas I started losing lots of time.  I was -1:30 after Fire Gigas and was -50 before Spring Beak.  Spring Beak went really well with the first slash killing him.  After that, I lost bunches of time on the next splits, almost 30s each time.  Ended up over a minute behind after Mech Rider II, but skipping Gold City and Midge Mallet along with a perfect Watermelon fight gave me a -3:30 segment.  Hexas went very well, with a bit of trolling on the last hit.  The Mana Fortress was bad again with me losing 1:30 to my best Buffy, almost a minute on Dark Lich, and I had a 3 cycle Mana Beast that cost me another minute.

Hopefully I'll beat it again after I get my capture card in this week so I can have a video this time.  Also, my best segments are down to 2:13:01.

Yagamoth

2013-07-14 11:02:26 pm

INTJ

Very nice, this is starting to look like something, congratulations Smiley

My capture card somehow doesn't work properly... What are you going to use? I may have to switch this thing out, since I couldn't get it to run up to now. I tried it with a LogiLink 2... Apparently not fit for NTSC snes.

TheAngryPanda

2013-07-14 11:30:12 pm

Speed > Safety

Can't wait to see how much lower you guys push this game. It's got so many cool tricks and stuff in it now. Smiley

doicm

2013-07-14 11:31:20 pm

If I remember right, you're only 6 minutes away from the 2P WR. Keep up the good work!

StingerPA

2013-07-14 11:50:07 pm

I ordered an ezcap and some s-video cables for better quality.

http://www.amazon.com/EzCAP116-Converter-Camcorders-Satellite-Supports/dp/B003YGJLWU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373866814&sr=8-1&keywords=ezcap

Also I forgot to mention that I split on the Mana Beast early so I added 2 seconds after the fact, so the final time was 2:22:52.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-07-15 01:01:57 am

Yagamoth: 2013-07-15 12:29:25 am

Yagamoth: 2013-07-15 12:26:42 am

Yagamoth: 2013-07-15 12:24:14 am

Yagamoth: 2013-07-15 12:21:59 am

2013-07-15 12:21:31 am

INTJ

s-video cable? ~~How does that work with an snes?~~ oô.. Maybe that's all I need to get my capture card running

Edit: Just realized
Edit2: ~~But... Does that cable have a specific name? for snes?..~~
Edit3: Damn.. How to get that ezcap in Switzerland? No idea.. People don't ~~speedrun~~ play video games in this country.. hm

Yagamoth

2013-07-18 03:50:06 am

INTJ

What's your suggestion for a marathon-safe route? I mean, we probably want to save at certain points in the run where rng can simply cause a game over and cost a lot of time. Maybe some safety-buys of armor/restock on items as well.

I'll outline what I see as the critical points in the run:

- Gaias Navel
If you make a small mistake or a Blat balloons you in an unfortunate position you can be potentially comboed to death. While this is a rather critical point in the run, you just saved at the Water palace anyway, so this should pose no problem.

- 2x2 Werewolves
The first encounter when you meet the Girl has potential to cause an instant game over if you don't handle perfectly, so you probably want to save at the Neko in the forest - probably also simply buy your items there since you are already talking with him anyway.
- I'd save here
The second encounter with 2 Werewolves inside the castle is potentially problematic. I suggest using the Barrel strategy instead of risking anything. While the risk is considerably smaller than the first encounter because you have 3 party members, it's still there.

- Fire Gigas
Unless you are 100% secure your strategy works all the time and you kill him in the first hit, I suggest saving in the Dwarven village before entering the Earth Temple. While the risk is incredibly small, he can throw 2 spells in quick succession (where you can't access the menu in between) and wipe your party.
- I'd save here

- Spring Beak
After defeating the Pebblers we could save before encountering the Spring Beak. Now, I have never actually been killed by the Spring Beak, but he came really close a few times when he decided to troll. His spells hurt quite a bit and he can chain them one after another.. Also there's that small chance of softlocking - which I still have no clue how that can happen.

- Great Viper
The Great Viper is dangerous. While I think he is 100% secure to handle if done properly, a small mistake and he makes quick work of you.
- I'd save here

- 2nd Wallface
You know our talent to kill both eyes and then struggle with the special attack ;).. Also - softlock can happen. Since this is quite a way after the last save,
- I'd save here

- Gold City Equipment / Midge Mallet
Between getting the Midge Mallet and picking up Gold City equipment I'd go for the Gold City Equipment, if not both. It trivializes the Lofty Mountains and gives you a lot more room for error against the Watermelon and Hexas bosses.

Past this point I don't think there is any necessity (or even option) to take any additional precautions. Maybe save before the Mana Fortress, but I don't think that's necessary.

Ok, that's a mouthful of "safety" or "marathon" strats. I don't think we have to implement all those parts, a few here and there at critical points would be enough.

What's your suggestion for a marathon-safe route? I mean, we probably want to save at certain points in the run where rng can simply cause a game over and cost a lot of time. Maybe some safety-buys of armor/restock on items as well.

I'll outline what I see as the critical points in the run:

[b]- Gaias Navel[/b]
If you make a small mistake or a Blat balloons you in an unfortunate position you can be potentially comboed to death. While this is a rather critical point in the run, you just saved at the Water palace anyway, so this should pose no problem.

[b]- 2x2 Werewolves[/b]
The first encounter when you meet the Girl has potential to cause an instant game over if you don't handle perfectly, so you probably want to save at the Neko in the forest - probably also simply buy your items there since you are already talking with him anyway.
- I'd save here
The second encounter with 2 Werewolves inside the castle is potentially problematic. I suggest using the Barrel strategy instead of risking anything. While the risk is considerably smaller than the first encounter because you have 3 party members, it's still there.

[b]- Fire Gigas[/b]
Unless you are 100% secure your strategy works all the time and you kill him in the first hit, I suggest saving in the Dwarven village before entering the Earth Temple. While the risk is incredibly small, he can throw 2 spells in quick succession (where you can't access the menu in between) and wipe your party.
- I'd save here

[b]- Spring Beak[/b]
After defeating the Pebblers we could save before encountering the Spring Beak. Now, I have never actually been killed by the Spring Beak, but he came really close a few times when he decided to troll. His spells hurt quite a bit and he can chain them one after another.. Also there's that small chance of softlocking - which I still have no clue how that can happen.

[b]- Great Viper[/b]
The Great Viper is dangerous. While I think he is 100% secure to handle if done properly, a small mistake and he makes quick work of you. 
- I'd save here

[b]- 2nd Wallface[/b]
You know our talent to kill both eyes and then struggle with the special attack ;).. Also - softlock can happen. Since this is quite a way after the last save, 
- I'd save here

[b]- Gold City Equipment / Midge Mallet[/b]
Between getting the Midge Mallet and picking up Gold City equipment I'd go for the Gold City Equipment, if not both. It trivializes the Lofty Mountains and gives you a lot more room for error against the Watermelon and Hexas bosses.

Past this point I don't think there is any necessity (or even option) to take any additional precautions. Maybe save before the Mana Fortress, but I don't think that's necessary.

Ok, that's a mouthful of "safety" or "marathon" strats. I don't think we have to implement all those parts, a few here and there at critical points would be enough.

StingerPA

2013-07-18 07:53:39 pm

My current thinking on save points goes as follows:

Before Werewolves
Matango
Northtown before the ruins
Maybe a Mana Fortress save

I'll definitely get the Midge Mallet and Gold City armor for safety reasons, but those four spots would be my biggest points right now that I'd lose a run at, specifically Matango and Northtown. We'll see if this changes after I start getting into runs again.

Yagamoth

2013-07-19 03:01:07 am

INTJ

Sounds good to me Smiley

StingerPA

2013-07-19 05:18:36 pm

I know I've heard you and Luigi say that the 2nd ruins are the hardest area, and I've developed some nice strats for each room. Here's an smv for all of it up until the boss. Use SNES9x 1.51rr to view it.

Attachment:

2nd Ruins.smv

Yagamoth

2013-07-20 06:46:59 am

INTJ

Really nice overall strategy. Is that consistent?

Also one thing in general: I see a ton of opportunities where you guys could hit the run button without losing anything - well, gaining a little bit of time. I'm not talking about the obvious on "how and where to run", I'm talking about the little parts where you probably simply forget about it.

For example: On the Sandship after regroup your whole party and the empire attacks - There is a tiny little part where you can sprint up to the Green guy. No reason not to.
Another example: After exiting Matango after beating the Great Viper, no reason not to sprint that little portion to the spikes before you axe them
^ And there are a ton of such little examples. I recommend keeping an eye open for those

StingerPA

2013-07-20 05:00:16 pm

It's fairly consistent. Every room with drops in it is almost perfectly consistent the way I'm doing it. The only exceptions are the narrow hallway with 2 drops, and that exception is if the Sprite does not get frostied. In that case, he just takes damage, gets knocked back, and you just keep moving up and into the next room. Nobody gets frostied in that case. The other exception is the Blue Drop Switch Room. You always want to cast Balloon there, and then take your chance at hitting them. If you miss, just wait until the casting is finished, and then step on the switch.

There are a couple of rooms that still give me a slight bit of trouble in terms of consistency. The 2nd room with the zombies rarely goes the same way every time. The bright side to this is that they don't ever give you any problems. Another room is the imp staircase. Hitting them is a good idea if you can.

As far as dashing in some areas, it's mostly inexperience keeping me from dashing there. I have a lot more control over where I'm going if I'm not dashing, so I try to only dash when I know what's going to happen as a result of it. I'll probably start doing those as I get more playing time in.

It's fairly consistent.  Every room with drops in it is almost perfectly consistent the way I'm doing it.  The only exceptions are the narrow hallway with 2 drops, and that exception is if the Sprite does not get frostied.  In that case, he just takes damage, gets knocked back, and you just keep moving up and into the next room.  Nobody gets frostied in that case.  The other exception is the Blue Drop Switch Room.  You always want to cast Balloon there, and then take your chance at hitting them.  If you miss, just wait until the casting is finished, and then step on the switch.

There are a couple of rooms that still give me a slight bit of trouble in terms of consistency.  The 2nd room with the zombies rarely goes the same way every time.  The bright side to this is that they don't ever give you any problems.  Another room is the imp staircase.  Hitting them is a good idea if you can.

As far as dashing in some areas, it's mostly inexperience keeping me from dashing there.  I have a lot more control over where I'm going if I'm not dashing, so I try to only dash when I know what's going to happen as a result of it.  I'll probably start doing those as I get more playing time in.

Musashi

2013-07-21 03:54:10 am

But time flows like a river...

Yeah yeah yeah.
Long time I didn't post here. Cheesy

I can see that guys you have find some nice glitches and improvements here, I am just wondering if there is any news tricks for 1 player run? As usual I am not interrested in a multi controller run, too hard for me. Tongue

Quote:

Edit3: Damn.. How to get that ezcap in Switzerland? No idea.. People don't speedrun play video games in this country.. hm

Try amazon?

Yagamoth

2013-07-21 03:20:41 pm

INTJ

For 1 controller, let me think about this.. You can skip Jochs barrier and get to the early dopples with my old Strategy. If you don't knot what that means:

- Get the invisibility glitch (Savewarp into the beginning cutscene.. For further reference: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Secret_of_Mana)
- Go to the top of Lofty Mountain, into the cave
- Select an invisible character, go down through the loading zone
- Face left and press "B" to proxy-talk to Joch and call your visible character through the entrance tiles
- Move further down with the visible character to go into the entrance to the trials cave

However, the difficult part would be getting through the Great Temple without a second controller. I'm not sure that's doable.. I actually haven't thought about this too much yet.

Also what I didn't try is to use the invisibility to store an event with only one controller - I consider this to be maybe possible, because somehow the "recovery time" after hitting a rope-pole while someone in your party is invisible is shortened. No idea why, but maybe we can manage to store an event using this and skip the Pure Lands with only one controller.

And not: Amazon doesn't sell stuff into Switzerland for some reason.

For 1 controller, let me think about this.. You can skip Jochs barrier and get to the early dopples with my old Strategy. If you don't knot what that means:

- Get the invisibility glitch (Savewarp into the beginning cutscene.. For further reference: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Secret_of_Mana)
- Go to the top of Lofty Mountain, into the cave
- Select an invisible character, go down through the loading zone
- Face left and press "B" to proxy-talk to Joch and call your visible character through the entrance tiles
- Move further down with the visible character to go into the entrance to the trials cave

However, the difficult part would be getting through the Great Temple without a second controller. I'm not sure that's doable.. I actually haven't thought about this too much yet.

Also what I didn't try is to use the invisibility to store an event with only one controller - I consider this to be maybe possible, because somehow the "recovery time" after hitting a rope-pole while someone in your party is invisible is shortened. No idea why, but maybe we can manage to store an event using this and skip the Pure Lands with only one controller.

And not: Amazon doesn't sell stuff into Switzerland for some reason.

StingerPA

2013-07-21 03:40:22 pm

Here's something that should be a nice topic of discussion: I just finished my save state run of the full game. The run clocked in at 1:55:15, so maybe sub 2 hours is possible with this route. I probably could've pushed it down even more had I been inclined to do more bullshit stuff. The beginning is probably the worst part in terms of killing enemies properly. I should have planned it out a bit better than I did. I slowed down a couple of areas because my keyboard setup isn't optimal for moving around and swapping characters at the same time with 2 controllers. Hopefully they aren't too TAS-y. As far as enemy despawns are concerned, just assume that if an enemy doesn't spawn, I did it on purpose. Diagonals are the best weapon for manipulating the camera and forcing enemies to not spawn.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1118168833/Secret%20of%20Mana%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.smv

There's just a couple of notes about movement that I want to make. I've already been saying that dashing in diagonals is bad because it doesn't force your AI to follow directly on your line, but it appears that the same is true for just walking. The AI gets stuck much more easily if you're walking around with diagonals everywhere. When you use the four cardinal directions, the AI follows your path almost exactly. Also, an effective method for moving past enemies like wolves in the ice country is hitting the wolf, swapping characters, then dashing by.

Also, I attached my Llanfair split file to this post so that you can more easily see the segment times I came up with.

I will probably be showing this on my stream sometime in the next couple of days, so keep an eye out for that since I'll be trying to explain certain parts of the run and why I do what I did.

Here's something that should be a nice topic of discussion:  I just finished my save state run of the full game.  The run clocked in at 1:55:15, so maybe sub 2 hours is possible with this route.  I probably could've pushed it down even more had I been inclined to do more bullshit stuff.  The beginning is probably the worst part in terms of killing enemies properly.  I should have planned it out a bit better than I did.  I slowed down a couple of areas because my keyboard setup isn't optimal for moving around and swapping characters at the same time with 2 controllers.  Hopefully they aren't too TAS-y.  As far as enemy despawns are concerned, just assume that if an enemy doesn't spawn, I did it on purpose.  Diagonals are the best weapon for manipulating the camera and forcing enemies to not spawn.

http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1118168833/Secret%20of%20Mana%20%28U%29%20%5B%21%5D.smv

[img]http://i.imgur.com/GdzbLWx.png[/img]

There's just a couple of notes about movement that I want to make.  I've already been saying that dashing in diagonals is bad because it doesn't force your AI to follow directly on your line, but it appears that the same is true for just walking.  The AI gets stuck much more easily if you're walking around with diagonals everywhere.  When you use the four cardinal directions, the AI follows your path almost exactly.  Also, an effective method for moving past enemies like wolves in the ice country is hitting the wolf, swapping characters, then dashing by.

Also, I attached my Llanfair split file to this post so that you can more easily see the segment times I came up with.

I will probably be showing this on my stream sometime in the next couple of days, so keep an eye out for that since I'll be trying to explain certain parts of the run and why I do what I did.

Attachment:

Any% Save State Run

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-07-21 05:39:32 pm

2013-07-21 05:39:00 pm

INTJ

I was almost hoping you found some new sequence break to shorten the early game looking at those splits ^^

Thank you for your effort, I'm looking forward to the commentary Smiley

Also yay... Sub 2h is doable. I'm not saying reasonable, but doable, which is my goal to reach ^^

StingerPA

2013-07-21 06:05:54 pm

I didn't look too hard for more sequence breaks. There were a few places I tried select-skipping past like the guards in the Emperor's Castle, but nothing came of it. I was mostly focused on what could theoretically happen with perfect luck and good execution. If I were trying to do a fully optimized GodTAS, this would probably be a 1:53 run instead of a low 1:55, if not even better than that. I don't know how each of the triggers work in this game to really come up with any sequence breaks beyond the simple stuff.