Secret of Mana

2013-05-12 11:46:30 am

INTJ

Quick question - how do you setup the Thanatos headbang? My understanding for it is as follows:

- Wait on the side until he sticks up his head
- Then move to the middle of his hands
- As soon as he starts moving with his head up, move a bit up or down and then he headbangs

Is that correct, or do you have another setup?

luigimeister

Edit history:

luigimeister: 2013-05-13 01:16:36 pm

luigimeister: 2013-05-13 01:13:49 pm

luigimeister: 2013-05-13 01:12:50 pm

2013-05-13 01:09:19 pm

Likes SoM far too much

yes that. I also have the girl in a certain position on the left. I can't really describe it, just go watch a run I guess. I really need to highlight it.
Edit: Except I don't have a run except the most recent one I never highlighted. Maybe I should fix that. http://www.twitch.tv/eastercharitymarathon/c/2131330 this video has sorta the positioning. You want the girl somewhere in that area.

Yagamoth

2013-05-13 01:46:56 pm

INTJ

Thank you

Also a mini timesaver: In case you can't dash past the rebel guard in the city where you have to enter the password: You can wiggle past him from the right by bringing all your characters to the same place, then hold up + left and repeatedly press Select ^^

luigimeister

2013-05-13 01:48:12 pm

Likes SoM far too much

Oh that's cool. I'll have to do that if I mess up, though I've got guard skip like 99% consistent.

Yagamoth

2013-05-13 01:49:08 pm

INTJ

What? How? o.o... Is there a setup?

luigimeister

Edit history:

luigimeister: 2013-05-13 01:53:38 pm

2013-05-13 01:52:32 pm

Likes SoM far too much

There is. 1:33:45. Make sure you control boy. Did it the same way on the last few runs, even though they failed later, and it worked the same way.

Yagamoth

2013-05-13 01:55:28 pm

INTJ

Hm... Ok, thank you - I didn't know it was essential to control the Boy there.

luigimeister

2013-05-13 01:56:00 pm

Likes SoM far too much

It seems that way. I know Pydoyks and company do it that way.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-13 04:15:13 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-05-13 02:32:42 pm

2013-05-13 01:59:05 pm

INTJ

I did the skip a few times, but I never knew it was whenever I had the Boy in the lead. Just before I tried the skip and it didn't work with the Sprite in the lead... really Odd how that works.

But I wanted to test that backup skip anyways because I had a few ideas. Sadly the select pass through NPCs does not work in other useful places. I had hopes for the Mushroom land, the Emperors Castle and Tasnica.. Although Tasnica isn't on the list anymore.

===========================

Edit: Btw. did you know that the hitboxes of your melee attacks are twice as large in boss battles? That's insane o-o

Also, pydoyks answered to my question:

Quote:

Target menu allows me to buffer to the next possible frame without mashing. You target and immediately hold the menu button.

Woow, that's going to be so useful ^^

======================

Edit 2: Also, I'm now reasonably certain on how that works with the Thanatos headbang

To get him to stick his head out, stand on the side during the hands phase
As soon as he does, walk into the middle above or below the head
As soon as he starts moving toward you move ~1 tile up or down so he has to re-target your position, which gets him stuck in the loop

I did the skip a few times, but I never knew it was whenever I had the Boy in the lead. Just before I tried the skip and it didn't work with the Sprite in the lead... really Odd how that works.

But I wanted to test that backup skip anyways because I had a few ideas. Sadly the select pass through NPCs does not work in other useful places. I had hopes for the Mushroom land, the Emperors Castle and Tasnica.. Although Tasnica isn't on the list anymore.

===========================

Edit: Btw. did you know that the hitboxes of your melee attacks are twice as large in boss battles? That's insane o-o

Also, pydoyks answered to my question:
[quote]Target menu allows me to buffer to the next possible frame without mashing. You target and immediately hold the menu button.[/quote]
Woow, that's going to be so useful ^^

======================

Edit 2: Also, I'm now reasonably certain on how that works with the Thanatos headbang

To get him to stick his head out, stand on the side during the hands phase
As soon as he does, walk into the middle above or below the head
As soon as he starts moving toward you move ~1 tile up or down so he has to re-target your position, which gets him stuck in the loop

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-17 09:25:02 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-05-17 09:16:19 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-05-17 09:08:50 pm

2013-05-17 09:06:05 pm

INTJ

Just found a way to probably save ~1.5 min

-> Did you know, that when your party gathers the flag for "no collision" is also set? Turns out, if you charge up your weapon, release(!), then activate a party-gather-event your charge will go through walls. So what does this mean? Well, we probably can now probably skip the first invisibility glitch to get past sage jochs barrier.

1. Charge up your weapon to somethin that has a forward dash
2. Release charge
3. Talk to Joch from the right (!)

.. I didn't test yet whether this actually works. I need to find a savefile where the barrier is still up.

Also, if we can cancel spellcast with ANYTHING, the no-collision flag is set. Such as..
- Hitting a Rope-Pole (we know that already)
- Stepping on a button (!)

I wonder whether there are some applications for the button or any other entity that would interrupt events for that matter..

Also, think about it - if you are confident enough, you could even simply get the midge-mallet and skip restocking/buying gear in Gold city now... o_o... I mean, we only have to beat... Dopplegangers, Aegragopilon, Dragonlizard, Hexas and Mech Rider 3... Worth a try?

Edit: confirmed, we can simply get past the barrier with a charge attack.

Just found a way to probably save ~1.5 min

-> Did you know, that when your party gathers the flag for "no collision" is also set? Turns out, if you charge up your weapon, release(!), then activate a party-gather-event your charge will go through walls. So what does this mean? Well, we probably can now probably skip the first invisibility glitch to get past sage jochs barrier.

1. Charge up your weapon to somethin that has a forward dash
2. Release charge
3. Talk to Joch from the right (!)

.. I didn't test yet whether this actually works. I need to find a savefile where the barrier is still up.

Also, if we can cancel spellcast with ANYTHING, the no-collision flag is set. Such as..
- Hitting a Rope-Pole (we know that already)
- Stepping on a button (!)

I wonder whether there are some applications for the button or any other entity that would interrupt events for that matter..

Also, think about it - if you are confident enough, you could even simply get the midge-mallet and skip restocking/buying gear in Gold city now... o_o... I mean, we only have to beat... Dopplegangers, Aegragopilon, Dragonlizard, Hexas and Mech Rider 3... Worth a try?

Edit: confirmed, we can simply get past the barrier with a charge attack.

TheAngryPanda

2013-05-17 09:39:37 pm

Speed > Safety

That is awesome, Nice find Yagamoth. I'm considering casually running this game once I'm feeling a bit better.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-18 01:06:59 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-05-18 09:11:01 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-17 11:49:35 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-05-17 11:19:57 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-05-17 11:19:18 pm

2013-05-17 11:18:59 pm

INTJ

You are welcome Smiley

At first I didn't intend to run it, and then somehow I simply started doing a casual run... And now I'm only 10min behind Luigimeisters time ^^.. It somehow is incredibly intimidating at first, but once you get a little bit into it, it's fairly clear.

Also - as far as I know SoE has the same basic engine as SoM, so maybe some trivia knowledge from SoE could be translated to SoM. I don't think SoM is more explored than SoE btw. I feel like there is still a ton of potential, but I don't know how to unlock it oô

If you need any pointers, I'm glad to explain it to you ^^

========================

Edit: Just tried out the way of lesser equipment:
- Dopplegangers, having lower armor can even be beneficial if you go for the dying strat (Also, NEVER unequip armor for the dying strategy, simply use Midge Mallet instead)
- Aegragopilon - I did not try... Don't have a save near him. But he should be manageable
- Dragonlizard is not a problem at all (He never was..)
- Hexas can be managed by chain-casting Analysis or Slow Down, reasonable
- The Mech Rider #3 does not seem to do much damage at all, even if you get hit... But he is probably the main catch to do this

====================================

2 things:

1) My route certainly works, the equipment from Gold City is straight up not required , the skip works. What this does however is, that you have to play and execute the bossfights really well. But it should overall be considerably faster.

2) I think I finally figured out how to hit the Spring beak properly. You need to know 2 things
- If you hit a boss at parts where he is invlunerable, your whole attack will not do any damage, even if different parts would be vulnerable (For example: Minorous defending)
- In boss fights you meelee weapons have their slashing hitbox doubled
=> Combining this.. Spring Beaks legs and feet are ALWAYS invulnerable. If you happen to hit both, his body AND his legs with the same attack, the invulnerability from the legs will prevail and he will take no damage. And it's ESPECIALLY easy to hit his legs by accident, because your slashing hitbox is doubled.

Also on a more random note:
Why don't we use different weapons for different occasions? For example, using a controlled overcharge on Spiky Tiger -> He dices to jump away -> we could simply use the overcharge and switch in the bow and kill him there?... Didn't test that, but seems reasonable.

You are welcome :)

At first I didn't intend to run it, and then somehow I simply started doing a casual run... And now I'm only 10min behind Luigimeisters time ^^.. It somehow is incredibly intimidating at first, but once you get a little bit into it, it's fairly clear.

Also - as far as I know SoE has the same basic engine as SoM, so maybe some trivia knowledge from SoE could be translated to SoM. I don't think SoM is more explored than SoE btw. I feel like there is still a ton of potential, but I don't know how to unlock it oô

If you need any pointers, I'm glad to explain it to you ^^

========================

Edit: Just tried out the way of lesser equipment:
- Dopplegangers, having lower armor can even be beneficial if you go for the dying strat (Also, NEVER unequip armor for the dying strategy, simply use Midge Mallet instead)
- Aegragopilon - I did not try... Don't have a save near him. But he should be manageable
- Dragonlizard is not a problem at all (He never was..)
- Hexas can be managed by chain-casting Analysis or Slow Down, reasonable
- The Mech Rider #3 does not seem to do much damage at all, even if you get hit... But he is probably the main catch to do this

====================================

2 things:

1) My route certainly works, the equipment from Gold City is straight up not required , the skip works. What this does however is, that you have to play and execute the bossfights really well. But it should overall be considerably faster.

2) I think I finally figured out how to hit the Spring beak properly. You need to know 2 things
- If you hit a boss at parts where he is invlunerable, your whole attack will not do any damage, even if different parts would be vulnerable (For example: Minorous defending)
- In boss fights you meelee weapons have their slashing hitbox doubled
=> Combining this.. Spring Beaks legs and feet are ALWAYS invulnerable. If you happen to hit both, his body AND his legs with the same attack, the invulnerability from the legs will prevail and he will take no damage. And it's ESPECIALLY easy to hit his legs by accident, because your slashing hitbox is doubled.

Also on a more random note:
Why don't we use different weapons for different occasions? For example, using a controlled overcharge on Spiky Tiger -> He dices to jump away -> we could simply use the overcharge and switch in the bow and kill him there?... Didn't test that, but seems reasonable.

doicm

2013-05-18 06:15:49 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

Also on a more random note:
Why don't we use different weapons for different occasions? For example, using a controlled overcharge on Spiky Tiger -> He dices to jump away -> we could simply use the overcharge and switch in the bow and kill him there?... Didn't test that, but seems reasonable.

Can you do overcharge on weapons that you haven't gained any levels with?

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-20 08:33:21 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-20 08:23:55 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-20 08:22:18 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-20 08:21:26 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-20 08:21:14 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-20 08:21:13 am

2013-05-19 05:47:22 am

INTJ

Not directly - you have to create the overcharge with the Level 1 and Level 2 weapons and then switch to the other one you want to use. Which (probably) also means, that you can't keep the overcharge after using it. So the use would have to be very specific.

Although I've never actually tested whether it does any damage. I only know it does the animation.

==================================

Edit: I was wrong on the Spring Beak on one thing: It's not his legs that prevent you from hitting him. It's his beak. I used HHS' LUA script to display the hitbox on him, and it's quite telling:

Black: Beak hitbox, that prevents you from hitting him
Blue without filling: Part where you can hit him
Blue with blue filling: I don't know.. Probably something along the lines of damaging hitbox if you run into it

So your best bet is to hit him from above or behind his head area.

For reference, Jabberwockys boxes:

Also, I just noticed, the Sprites hitbox seems to be generally wider/larger than the other twos characters..

Not directly - you have to create the overcharge with the Level 1 and Level 2 weapons and then switch to the other one you want to use. Which (probably) also means, that you can't keep the overcharge after using it. So the use would have to be very specific.

Although I've never actually tested whether it does any damage. I only know it does the animation.

==================================

Edit: I was wrong on the Spring Beak on one thing: It's not his legs that prevent you from hitting him. It's his beak. I used HHS' LUA script to display the hitbox on him, and it's quite telling:

Black: Beak hitbox, that prevents you from hitting him
Blue without filling: Part where you can hit him
Blue with blue filling: I don't know.. Probably something along the lines of damaging hitbox if you run into it

[img]http://i.imagebanana.com/img/b2awary7/springbeakboxes.gif[/img]

So your best bet is to hit him from above or behind his head area.

For reference, Jabberwockys boxes:

[img]http://i.imagebanana.com/img/yybf1se0/jabberwockyboxes.gif[/img]

Also, I just noticed, the Sprites hitbox seems to be generally wider/larger than the other twos characters..

[img]http://i.imagebanana.com/img/vn69j103/heroesboxes.gif[/img]

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-23 09:02:55 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-21 12:29:22 pm

2013-05-21 12:28:08 pm

INTJ

Btw. I updated the wiki with the correct idea of the Money and Item Glitch.

https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Secret_of_Mana#Extra_Item_Slots_Glitch_.28or_Many_Walnuts_Glitch.29

Edit2: Reworked a good chunk of the wiki now, updated some information and added some sections for general tipps & tricks.
Also, big thanks for initially creating and structuring the Wiki-Page. I'd have been lost (and probably too unmotivated) if I had to create it from scratch Smiley

TODO:
- Describing the invisibility Glitch in (execution, uses & in depth)
- Describe the Major Grand Palace Skip (Requirements & as extension of the invisbility glitch)
- Reworking the Mana Fortress Barrier Skip
- Reworking the Rope Pole Section

Conradson

2013-05-23 03:47:02 pm

From France !

Hello,

does anyone knows what's up with Shaeden/Pydoyks ? His Twitch stream is closed, I wanted to watch his awesome Secret of Mana 3 players PB again but now it's impossible.

Thanks in advance, and good job with all your researches on SoM

(sorry if my english is weird, I'm french)

luigimeister

Edit history:

luigimeister: 2013-05-23 08:31:48 pm

luigimeister: 2013-05-23 08:31:15 pm

luigimeister: 2013-05-23 08:15:11 pm

2013-05-23 08:08:49 pm

Likes SoM far too much

I've no clue what happened to Pydoyks. I dunno if anyone else archived his stuff. I should have.
Also Yagamoth, thanks a lot for all the work you've been doing. I've been down at the beach so I haven't been active to respond to you. I'll be doing runs soon I promise. Sub 2:40 or bust!

Edit: I've got the grand palace skip on the RTA wiki I started if you want to just copy and paste it as a base http://secret-of-mana-rta.wikia.com/wiki/Doppleganger_Early

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-24 03:47:21 am

2013-05-24 03:39:55 am

INTJ

2:40`Wasn't it 2:30?

I didn't even know there was a RTA wiki o.o.. Nice, that's going to be useful Smiley

Just to make sure you don't do unneccessary stuff when you run - You do know about the idea of skipping Gold City, using Midge Mallet for Dopples and the new early Dopplegangers?

Skipping gold City equipment and the new early Dopples saves roughly 2-3 minutes alone

doicm

2013-05-24 06:14:18 am

The closest thing I could find to a pb for Khovastis/Pydoyks is http://www.twitch.tv/khovastis/c/1768093. It's clocked in at 2:42ish, so I know it's not their best (but no other co-op runs of theirs were submitted to TSSB, so this is the best we can do).

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-24 06:26:19 am

2013-05-24 06:18:36 am

INTJ

Thank you - seeing 2/3 player runs kind of makes me a little jaelous ^^

pydoyks

2013-05-24 08:09:28 am

I'm still around and interested in this game. Khovastis and I plan on shooting for sub 2:10 sometime relatively soon.

Conradson

2013-05-24 12:02:10 pm

From France !

Quote from pydoyks:

I'm still around and interested in this game. Khovastis and I plan on shooting for sub 2:10 sometime relatively soon.

Great news ! I Hope you'll stream on Khovastis Twitch channel. Is Ikkitrix not around to complete your team ?

I found a way to download your 3 player 2:30 and 2 player 2:32 from Twitch so 'till then I can watch that again. If someone here needs those runs I can upload them on a private Youtube account.

luigimeister

Edit history:

luigimeister: 2013-05-24 07:13:14 pm

2013-05-24 07:11:04 pm

Likes SoM far too much

In response Yagamoth, maybe sub 2:30 (I really want sub 2:30). Sub 2:35 for sure now with better skips and skipping more stuff. I do know all the skips, went back and read the past posts. Also I'm gonna make a new charge glitch video tutorial soon. I need to add some stuff to it.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-05-25 11:50:41 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-25 11:13:59 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-25 07:32:22 am

Yagamoth: 2013-05-25 06:33:38 am

2013-05-25 06:32:05 am

INTJ

Yesterday I was 10+ mins ahead of my old splits with 2:43 (I accidently overwrote my pb of 2:43:33) before my run got killed by the flowers at Lofty Mountains. The splits didn't use the new Joch Barrier Skip and still went to Gold City to buy - so I think I'd have gained at least another 3 minutes (Although the Mana Beast was a 2 cycle and Buffy incredibly good... So that would be difficult to keep). So... I think 2:30 is realistic. I actually always though your best time was around 2:30, and wondered where I'd lose so much time ^^

I think, we're at the point where efficiently planning on how to get through the various areas in a consistent fashion is probably the biggest timesaver :)... I hate the sewers and 2nd Ruins..

===========================

I just figured out how to completely trivialize Mech Rider 3. If all your characters are at the very bottom.. He will never charge around.

===========================

Edit: Also, I got quite the lucky run right now... With the new strategies and good luck, this can happen:

http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/c/2331370

Yesterday I was 10+ mins ahead of my old splits with 2:43 (I accidently overwrote my pb of 2:43:33) before my run got killed by the flowers at Lofty Mountains. The splits didn't use the new Joch Barrier Skip and still went to Gold City to buy - so I think I'd have gained at least another 3 minutes (Although the Mana Beast was a 2 cycle and Buffy incredibly good... So that would be difficult to keep). So... I think 2:30 is realistic. I actually always though your best time was around 2:30, and wondered where I'd lose so much time ^^

I think, we're at the point where efficiently planning on how to get through the various areas in a consistent fashion is probably the biggest timesaver :)... I hate the sewers and 2nd Ruins..

===========================

I just figured out how to completely trivialize Mech Rider 3. If all your characters are at the very bottom.. He will never charge around.

===========================

Edit: Also, I got quite the lucky run right now... With the new strategies and good luck, this can happen:

http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/c/2331370

[img]http://i.imagebanana.com/img/oc4vccmm/som_splits_newrun.gif[/img]

doicm

2013-05-25 03:32:59 pm

For anyone interested, it's being run on Khovastis's channel right now (Shaeden and Khovastis coop runs):

http://www.twitch.tv/khovastis