Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2013-02-13 02:21:36 pm

Wow Panda, that guide is really awesome, great work!

Must be quite the challenge to keep it up to date, lol!

This game is broooken, keep it up guys Smiley

TheAngryPanda

2013-02-13 02:24:00 pm

Speed > Safety

We're at a small predicament right now with the guide, which is why it hasn't been touched lately. We're still trying to figure out some Act 1 strats and how to make them more consistent/see if other things can work better, yadda yadda blah blah. It will be back up to date probably this weekend if I don't have any jobs I need to take care of.

Thanks for the compliment though for sure, makes me wanna work on it even more now. Smiley

Vayastrike

2013-02-13 02:33:37 pm

Well it's understandable considering strats seem to be changing on a daily basis right now :D. I appreciate the effort, thanks Smiley

Saturn

2013-02-13 11:21:31 pm

Nice find to bypass the rocks without Levitation, probably one of the biggest tricks we will see for this game.

Since this once again is huge timesaver, I couldn't resist to try another attempt with it and the new PixieDust status manipulation glitch included. And this 2 tricks seem to have great potential when combined with proper strategies, since I got a 1:35 with them recently:

Lemon

2013-02-14 06:08:56 am

Nice run Saturn!

I just have one question: Why do you kill the little Robot on the Caltron fight?

Lemon

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-17 11:40:28 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-17 11:40:25 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-17 11:40:24 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-14 10:25:21 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-14 08:25:37 am

2013-02-14 08:07:06 am

Speed > Safety

http://i.imgur.com/w4ii7RJ.jpg (it's really 1:36:xx, not 1:34:22, there was an issue with my WSplit because I've never come close to this time even on runs that were technically better)

done on SNES, NTSC Cart

After some pretty heartcrushing attempts, there's my improvement over my PB (1:44:28) when using Saturn's route minus the Jade Disk and a couple slight changes on item pickups in Act 1.

I'm probably done going for runs like this from here on out though, I'd much rather focus on my guide and bringing more people into running this game since it's infinitely more fun to race now.

Possible improvements on my time:

Act 1: (~10-13 seconds)

-my character switching could still use some improvement
-messed up 1 rock skip
-got hit by 2 vipers
-clipped the side of grass/rocks/etc... a few times throughout

Act 2: (~24-30 seconds)

-general improvement overall from not getting hit so much by sniffs in pyramid
-was a bit late on my wings being used after getting spear
-messed up walking backwards while confused
-my market routing could use some work probably (not a time loss, just a general statement)
-got hit in oglin tunnels 2 times
-aquagoth decided he didn't wanna die normally and cost me an extra 2 crush
-dog is generally stupid throughout this act costing me around 2-4 seconds with his shenanigans

Act 3: (~40-70 seconds)

-I actually finally got a good Act 3!
-Character switching in some places could be better
-had a slight hiccup at telescope cutscene where i thought game froze but it resumed as normal after about 10-15 seconds
-my dark forest can always be better
-sterling could've gone better, but it was a pretty good fight overall

Act 4: (~20-30 seconds)

-I got hit a few times killing the turrets
-final fights were pretty decent, had a small issue with the raptors at one point because of dog but that got fixed
-i give a bit of extra time saved here because i'm not 100% familiar with the area and haven't played it as much as others, so i'm sure it could be improved

So there ya go, I'm really happy to see we can basically just do a boss rush of Act 1 now and that Defend works out, I had a feeling it was capable of being pulled off. Can't wait to see what you can do with this new route Meta.

edit 1: English is my 1st language and I'm still terrible at it apparently. Also included info on what I was playing on since people might want that info.

http://i.imgur.com/w4ii7RJ.jpg   (it's really 1:36:xx, not 1:34:22, there was an issue with my WSplit because I've never come close to this time even on runs that were technically better)

done on SNES, NTSC Cart

After some pretty heartcrushing attempts, there's my improvement over my PB (1:44:28) when using Saturn's route minus the Jade Disk and a couple slight changes on item pickups in Act 1.

I'm probably done going for runs like this from here on out though, I'd much rather focus on my guide and bringing more people into running this game since it's infinitely more fun to race now.

Possible improvements on my time:

Act 1: (~10-13 seconds)

-my character switching could still use some improvement
-messed up 1 rock skip
-got hit by 2 vipers
-clipped the side of grass/rocks/etc... a few times throughout

Act 2: (~24-30 seconds)

-general improvement overall from not getting hit so much by sniffs in pyramid
-was a bit late on my wings being used after getting spear
-messed up walking backwards while confused
-my market routing could use some work probably (not a time loss, just a general statement)
-got hit in oglin tunnels 2 times
-aquagoth decided he didn't wanna die normally and cost me an extra 2 crush
-dog is generally stupid throughout this act costing me around 2-4 seconds with his shenanigans

Act 3: (~40-70 seconds)

-I actually finally got a good Act 3!
-Character switching in some places could be better
-had a slight hiccup at telescope cutscene where i thought game froze but it resumed as normal after about 10-15 seconds
-my dark forest can always be better
-sterling could've gone better, but it was a pretty good fight overall

Act 4: (~20-30 seconds)

-I got hit a few times killing the turrets
-final fights were pretty decent, had a small issue with the raptors at one point because of dog but that got fixed
-i give a bit of extra time saved here because i'm not 100% familiar with the area and haven't played it as much as others, so i'm sure it could be improved

So there ya go, I'm really happy to see we can basically just do a boss rush of Act 1 now and that Defend works out, I had a feeling it was capable of being pulled off. Can't wait to see what you can do with this new route Meta.

edit 1: English is my 1st language and I'm still terrible at it apparently. Also included info on what I was playing on since people might want that info.

Saturn

2013-02-14 09:43:18 am

Thanks Lemon. Killing the dusters as soon as possible allows for a bit quicker progress to the next key battle, but is also a little riskier in that it requires to kill the resulting death spiders quickly in order to avoid heavy lag towards the last bosses. Also only recommended with either the max defense glitch or enough available Barrier/Aura casts, since otherwise they can take you out in a single hit.

MetaSigma

2013-02-14 05:10:34 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Son of a...10 mins ahead of me Panda...well...I guess now I have a WR to take back and really hammer out. Well played good sir...well played!

TheAngryPanda

2013-02-15 09:37:52 pm

Speed > Safety

So after watching Meta's stream and realizing just how lucky my run (and respectively, Saturn's run) actually is; I think at this point Speed should still be gotten because it absolutely reduces the amount of RNG in the game regarding hit/evade and does it enough such that if Meta had that hit/evade, he probably could have beaten my time.

This being said, if you're that person out there going full bore towards the WR, you will still not be picking up Speed and instead will be totally reliant on RNG to help you obtain the WR. Good luck, you absolutely will need it.

MetaSigma

2013-02-16 04:48:37 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

I'm still stunned how badly the RNG decided to just...take a dive on me. I mean it's like...what happened here? Kinda thing. Still...Sterling was my own fault, the forest I should have just stun locked into swings, and the dog being stupid on turrets and missing EVERY SHOT? I honestly think there is more to this than I know...I do believe there is a "sweet spot" on those turrets that makes them hittable almost all the time. It seems insane I miss so much and Saturn misses very little. Not to mention even WITH speed the dog has had issues hitting those things in the past. I'll deny the speed option unless you feel it's absolutely necessary. I still believe getting it won't help long term just because think about it. If you activate it, that means you'll have to get 3 pixie dusts now since you'll do atlas like normal, speed next, THEN defend. You can't stack defend/atlas or you won't take enough dmg since everything will do 0 or 1. Also I'm gonna say nay to killing the cleaning robots unless as I agree with Saturn you are so damn confident you can smoke them THAT FAST they'll go down. Also and maybe this was just me...I noticed a SUDDEN IMPROVEMENT in accuracy when I had Aura activated. I'm wondering if it's a complete buff? All stats up?

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-16 07:18:19 am

2013-02-16 06:07:00 am

Speed > Safety

couldn't you do speed at monks via plague > pixie dust > double speed lvl 1? edit: this probably UF's it, if that's the case then nvm.

Aura has an implied buff since you can't get knocked back thus you get more hits and when you do connect during an enemies knockback, it seems easier to hit them. I don't think there's a hidden buff attached to Aura.

Speed takes around 55-65 seconds to get depending on various things, if you get hit enough to account for this time loss (would normally be a reset... which is why i was telling you i reset if i'm ever -50)then speed becomes something you should've gotten since you potentially could be at the same time. So in yolo-mode, speed isn't worth it. Consistency would argue either finding ways to stun lock enemies (costs time) or get speed (costs more time on average).

Either way, testing stuff later today right? Should be "fun," lol.

MetaSigma

2013-02-16 12:24:44 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Ok so basically you're adding in around...2 to 2 and a half minutes of time then of GETTING speed and then HOPING you get plagued and then WAITING for the plague to do it's job. It's just...not worth it in the end honestly. At least at this point. I can easily improve EVERYTHING I do and really it's more execution and remembering to do certain things more than anything.

TheAngryPanda

2013-02-16 09:20:24 pm

Speed > Safety

This game is so broke it's ridiculous.

MetaSigma

2013-02-17 11:13:59 am

I just thought of something, I can still skip speed, but with the Infinite Aura ability I only need the invul to be effective. Meaning all the time getting hit by enemies will be negated and SHOULD in theory save about a minute I would say. Also having re-watched Saturn's route I think it can be improved SLIGHTLY in certain areas that I'm going to test out. Panda I believe that you were right about the 4 clay hut, as well I should still get the 2 clay. Multiple picks ups of Clay are faster and better than picking-up singles overtime.

That being said WITH proper execution and yes a TON of RNG luck on Sniffs (Mids are by far the biggest time killer I've noticed overall) 1:35:xx is possible, and I'm not talking Saturn emulator possible, I'm talking CONSOLE possible. I have seen small differences between Console and Emulator that does allow more time to be saved on Emulator than I first thought. It's not a MAJOR difference but it is there considering the whole run in general. I'd say no more than 20 seconds, but still 20 seconds at this point IS a great deal of time. The other thing would have to be the way Saturn takes out the spiders/cleaners. I'm curious if you HAVE to take out the spiders for the next wave of guys to come along or if it's a SET period AFTER the cleaner is destroyed. Meaning if you're still invul and you let the spiders LIVE they wouldn't spawn again, OR must you kill them for the next wave of enemies to spawn?

If I can narrow and fine-tune this shit down I honestly think Panda's 1:34:xx would be a legit (We discussed that 1:34:xx is not legit just because he knows for a fact his 1:36 was better overall and the fact that he's never even come CLOSE to that run since. So TECHINCALLY his 1:36:xx is what he considers his best time.)

I just thought of something, I can still skip speed, but with the Infinite Aura ability I only need the invul to be effective. Meaning all the time getting hit by enemies will be negated and SHOULD in theory save about a minute I would say. Also having re-watched Saturn's route I think it can be improved SLIGHTLY in certain areas that I'm going to test out. Panda I believe that you were right about the 4 clay hut, as well I should still get the 2 clay. Multiple picks ups of Clay are faster and better than picking-up singles overtime.

That being said WITH proper execution and yes a TON of RNG luck on Sniffs (Mids are by far the biggest time killer I've noticed overall) 1:35:xx is possible, and I'm not talking Saturn emulator possible, I'm talking CONSOLE possible. I have seen small differences between Console and Emulator that does allow more time to be saved on Emulator than I first thought. It's not a MAJOR difference but it is there considering the whole run in general. I'd say no more than 20 seconds, but still 20 seconds at this point IS a great deal of time. The other thing would have to be the way Saturn takes out the spiders/cleaners. I'm curious if you HAVE to take out the spiders for the next wave of guys to come along or if it's a SET period AFTER the cleaner is destroyed. Meaning if you're still invul and you let the spiders LIVE they wouldn't spawn again, OR must you kill them for the next wave of enemies to spawn?

If I can narrow and fine-tune this shit down I honestly think Panda's 1:34:xx would be a legit (We discussed that 1:34:xx is not legit just because he knows for a fact his 1:36 was better overall and the fact that he's never even come CLOSE to that run since. So TECHINCALLY his 1:36:xx is what he considers his best time.)

Lemon

Edit history:

Lemon: 2013-02-17 11:42:40 am

2013-02-17 11:42:05 am

Well I did some small changes in Act 1 and wanted to see what the time would be and the time was 12:30 on Magmar (Includs getting Speed)
From what I did is I calculated the ammount of stuff I need up untill the end of the game and tried to get most of it in Act 1.

For example:

2x Atlas = 6x Ash 2x Amulet
4x Defend = 4x Clay 4x Ash
12x Speed = 12x Wax 24x Water

Thats the total ammount of times you cast those spells in the game and I got all covered in Act 1.

Greetings Lemon

TheAngryPanda

2013-02-17 11:47:55 am

Speed > Safety

Quote from MetaSigma:

If I can narrow and fine-tune this shit down I honestly think Panda's 1:34:xx would be a legit (We discussed that 1:34:xx is not legit just because he knows for a fact his 1:36 was better overall and the fact that he's never even come CLOSE to that run since. So TECHINCALLY his 1:36:xx is what he considers his best time.)

To elaborate on this:

I did 3 runs a couple nights after my run and after watching meta get a decent run, the times were nowhere close to my 1:34:22. I don't know what caused the 2 min disparity, it pretty much has me very much pissed off since I can't do a run right now to get a more solid time, this time with an actual timer right in front of me. One of my runs was a 1:36 (i didn't count seconds at this point cuz I was hoping I'd break 1:35 again), this is what we're using because it's a much more reasonable time for how I play.

rayvex

2013-02-17 11:50:23 am

hi

Skipping speed sounds good, because looking back at the vids honestly made me think the new aura glitch isnt really that much of a time saver, mainly a consistency strat.
It took more than 2 minutes to set up (getting speed + casting all the stuff on the boy and dog) and in the end gained about 3+ minutes back saving roughly 1 min in the end compared to your 1:41.34 run. Keep in mind though that you did absolutely terrible at the turrets in Act4 in your 1:41.34 run meaning that the margin is less in reality.

MetaSigma

2013-02-17 12:21:54 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Well the other thing was I wasn't 100% certain of the order of the casts. The other thing is I can actually multi-cast meaning it'll save more time than you think. Plus taking speed out of the equation will help long term I think. Right now it's just getting the route and ordering down honestly.

rayvex

2013-02-17 12:29:05 pm

hi

oh so it is possible to multi-cast on the aura glitch after all? I thought it had to be done slowly to not cancel the animations or something

MetaSigma

2013-02-17 12:31:11 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

It's sectioned. Nitrodon tested it so it's possible to do it WAY faster. I'm gonna do a couple runs in a few mins testing stuff out. Smiley

Saturn

2013-02-18 10:54:47 am

Quote from MetaSigma:

I'm curious if you HAVE to take out the spiders for the next wave of guys to come along...

No. The death spiders don't affect the progress of the key battles, and thus should be delayed for after getting rid of the dusters. They have a starting spot in the middle of the room which triggers the next spider/duster to come out, so hitting them before they reach that spot will only cause delays. Theoretically you could skip killing them completely, but after every new round before another duster appears, new spiders will come out anyway, which aside of lag will eventually freeze the game once there are more than 6 enemies on screen at the same time. Thus killing them is required, but it's enough to do so at any time before the next set of enemies appear (or during the battle with them in the worst case).

MetaSigma

2013-02-18 02:07:19 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

You are correct, however I've seen killing the sweeper on the Rimsala and Dog/Boy to be the most efficient use of my time on this. Because 1 spider is faster to deal with as Magmar is coming out than trying to force 3 spiders to pay attention to you. Segmented hell yes you do it, SS? I'm not 100% certain it would be wise because you miss one and suddenly you're chasing em around.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-20 09:24:44 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-20 07:49:59 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-20 12:03:19 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-20 12:00:44 am

2013-02-18 05:46:04 pm

Speed > Safety

So there's this:

Lemon and I were testing out the new route, you can save around 4 seconds on top of this theory TAS we made. More to come eventually.

Human input estimate: 11:XX act 1

Edit 1:

Just to clarify, we were testing multiple different methods when doing that TAS, this is the route you would take if following the perm-aura on boy strat:

intro - Grab 2 clay
raptor attack - Grab 1 water, 3 crystal (right wall), die to raptor (>1 min = reset)
village - Grab nectar/water containers, exit hut, enter 2nd hut, grab 30 talons, leave hut, enter 3rd hut, grab 18 talons and 3 clay, leave hut, grab oil, dog skip
eastern - Grab 1 clay near quicksand area entrance
quicksand - Buy petal, sell petal/nectar (or just nectar), grab clay, run south with dog through area, grab 4 crystal in container, bugmuck
bugmuck - grab crystal 3x trigger, 3x clay by cave, 2 crystal container, enter cave, equip hardball, buy 10 crystal, grab 1 clay, leave cave, enter big bug 1
bb1 - 4 clay here (your choice where), enter bb2 (lower)
bb2 (lower) - grab 1 clay at entrance, exit to outer left
outer left - grab petal, enter bb2 (mid)
bb2 (mid) - grab clay, exit to outer right
outer right - enter bb2 (upper)
bb2 (upper) - get to thraxx (various methods)
thraxx - kill him? (really? just watch the video)
bugmuck cliffs - enter quicksand cliffs*
quicksand cliffs - containers everywhere (grab them before or after talking to acid rain guy, and only the important containers "watch the video"), purchase 40 crystal/35 clay/(5 ash), exit to eastern forest
eastern forest - la dee da, grab a spare clay if you need to
village (revisit 1) - talk to never shut's up eyes for ezmode beads, run to western village, grab the bead/clay/defend (if you're routing for it....), leave via northwest exit (grab wax if you want to, i don't)
northwest forest - grab 1 clay by rock, rock skip
volcano core - rock skip, grab clay by next rock, rock skip, grab clay by 3rd rock, rock skip, volcano sewers
volcano sewers - if you don't know the path by now that's just terrible... video shows it, enter boss**
magmar - it's magmar... enjoy your 12 min act 1, you can get to magmar as early as 10:48 with human input

*After thraxx, calculate in your head what ingredients you've used/obtained/have extra, adjust the route to fit your needs on the fly to optimize your time for whatever luck/mistakes/RNG you've gotten... this route is flexible enough that the most outlying ingredient (a clay in eastern forest) is only 1 second away and easily gotten, if you're having trouble in act 1 PM me and I will help you even thought my version of help is somewhat... critical?

**So fun fact here, if you despawn the viper you'd normally 6x hardball to get rid of at the 2nd rock in the volcano core, you don't use those hardballs until right before the boss, at which point you do a VERY quick either 6x cast on 1 mosquito or 2 3x cast on 2 mosquitos; you'll have to decide which you think is quicker, depends on your multi-cast abilities. Regardless, because you don't have to wait for the death animation like you do with the viper, you can save upwards of 4 seconds over another person (death animation + pickup drop), this is one of the best time savers that's luck-based in this route.

Edit 2:

Started working on my guide today since this route seems to be the new standard, which basically means within the next 2 days it'll get redone rendering all work I do completely pointless as usual. Sad

So there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxAt52bBKOE

Lemon and I were testing out the new route, you can save around 4 seconds on top of this theory TAS we made. More to come eventually.

Human input estimate: 11:XX act 1

Edit 1:

Just to clarify, we were testing multiple different methods when doing that TAS, this is the route you would take if following the perm-aura on boy strat:

intro - Grab 2 clay
raptor attack - Grab 1 water, 3 crystal (right wall), die to raptor (>1 min = reset)
village - Grab nectar/water containers, exit hut, enter 2nd hut, grab 30 talons, leave hut, enter 3rd hut, grab 18 talons and 3 clay, leave hut, grab oil, dog skip
eastern - Grab 1 clay near quicksand area entrance
quicksand - Buy petal, sell petal/nectar (or just nectar), grab clay, run south with dog through area, grab 4 crystal in container, bugmuck
bugmuck - grab crystal 3x trigger, 3x clay by cave, 2 crystal container, enter cave, equip hardball, buy 10 crystal, grab 1 clay, leave cave, enter big bug 1
bb1 - 4 clay here (your choice where), enter bb2 (lower)
bb2 (lower) - grab 1 clay at entrance, exit to outer left
outer left - grab petal, enter bb2 (mid)
bb2 (mid) - grab clay, exit to outer right
outer right - enter bb2 (upper)
bb2 (upper) - get to thraxx (various methods)
thraxx - kill him? (really? just watch the video)
bugmuck cliffs - enter quicksand cliffs*
quicksand cliffs - containers everywhere (grab them before or after talking to acid rain guy, and only the important containers "watch the video"), purchase 40 crystal/35 clay/(5 ash), exit to eastern forest
eastern forest - la dee da, grab a spare clay if you need to
village (revisit 1) - talk to never shut's up eyes for ezmode beads, run to western village, grab the bead/clay/defend (if you're routing for it....), leave via northwest exit (grab wax if you want to, i don't)
northwest forest - grab 1 clay by rock, rock skip
volcano core - rock skip, grab clay by next rock, rock skip, grab clay by 3rd rock, rock skip, volcano sewers
volcano sewers - if you don't know the path by now that's just terrible... video shows it, enter boss**
magmar - it's magmar... enjoy your 12 min act 1, you can get to magmar as early as 10:48 with human input

*After thraxx, calculate in your head what ingredients you've used/obtained/have extra, adjust the route to fit your needs on the fly to optimize your time for whatever luck/mistakes/RNG you've gotten... this route is flexible enough that the most outlying ingredient (a clay in eastern forest) is only 1 second away and easily gotten, if you're having trouble in act 1 PM me and I will help you even thought my version of help is somewhat... critical?

**So fun fact here, if you despawn the viper you'd normally 6x hardball  to get rid of at the 2nd rock in the volcano core, you don't use those hardballs until right before the boss, at which point you do a VERY quick either 6x cast on 1 mosquito or 2 3x cast on 2 mosquitos; you'll have to decide which you think is quicker, depends on your multi-cast abilities. Regardless, because you don't have to wait for the death animation like you do with the viper, you can save upwards of 4 seconds over another person (death animation + pickup drop), this is one of the best time savers that's luck-based in this route.

Edit 2:

Started working on my guide today since this route seems to be the new standard, which basically means within the next 2 days it'll get redone rendering all work I do completely pointless as usual. :(

MetaSigma

2013-02-20 07:58:39 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

You know Evermore is out to screw with you when you can't even get past Act 2 Atlas glitching because you get hit on the exact same frame as poison dmg and not even know it...

Seriously I had a run 2:30 ahead and the statues killed me...THE STATUES...

In other news we found another skip that saves 20+ seconds meaning 1:30 is just that much more possible (SLIGHTLY)

Dragondarch

2013-02-20 09:31:52 pm

Pudding%

Last week I said this:
"I expect sub 1:40 in 2 weeks."
To which you replied:
"Dragondarch, NO! Don't say things like that! Sub 1:40 is NOT happening!"

This week you're aiming for sub 1:36.
So now I say this:
"I expect sub 1:30 in 2 weeks."

Prove me right plzkthx thumbsup