Secret of Evermore (SNES)

Edit history:

Grumly: 2014-01-15 02:01:47 pm

2014-01-15 01:04:17 pm

I'm trying brute-force attack against Thraxx' RNG.

To be continued...

Edit 1 : 7E4E97 is the number of frames since the last move of the boy. Useless.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-01-15 02:20:26 pm

2014-01-15 02:10:34 pm

Speed > Safety

What do you mean by "move?"

edit: Oh, okay. Yeah... that's useless I'd imagine. Actually, it could be useful if there's some of OoB blind skip found via AI paths again. Sort of like Blimp Skip, but much more complex.

Grumly

Edit history:

Grumly: 2014-01-15 02:20:06 pm

Grumly: 2014-01-15 02:16:32 pm

2014-01-15 02:16:20 pm

It's the number of frames since your last input in left, right, up or down.
It comes bak to 0 if an enemy hits you too.

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-15 02:28:08 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Seems like its used for the boys "yawn" animation, dont know which use it should either have. U checked if its resetting after he yawns?

Grumly

2014-01-15 02:42:51 pm

You're right, it resets after the boy yawns. I never noticed that when he yawns, his position on screen changes, like one or two pixel. At the end of the animation, the boy come back at his initial position. I tried three times to do some kind of oob by moving during the animation. No success.

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-15 03:03:22 pm

2014-01-15 02:56:05 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Have u checked the X-Axis? 7E4EA3 is the one for the boy, pls tell me if it changes when he yawns. Otherwise its just a visual effect.
p.S: I think its just the Animation that isnt set correctly, even if the X positions changes, out of bounds is such a thing in this game, since when you are oob you get stuck constantly.

DLDarklink

2014-01-15 03:32:43 pm

...

So... during my run tonight I failed pretty bad at the Diamond Eyes skip... After some rage I decided to try some other things to bypass that trigger. The plan was to do a frame perfect character switch, but it failed Wink

After raging some more, this happened:

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-15 03:39:15 pm

Speed > Safety

LOL, what is that? hahaha. Were you pressing B to attack or did it lock the animation? If we can lock animations, I've got to figure that out for the Carltron fight! That's an awesome find.

DLDarklink

2014-01-15 03:49:04 pm

...

i did:

Dog: B and quickly pressed Select to switch to boy

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-15 03:53:29 pm

Speed > Safety

K, nice, might have some use for this in the TAS at Carltron, maybe.

DLDarklink

2014-01-15 04:41:21 pm

...

don't know if it's important, but I tried it again and this time I destroyed the stones that are above the boy and the dog (where the dog likes to go sniffing).

Also, picking up the ingredients at that spot isn't neccessary (with rocks still standing)

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-15 04:45:03 pm

Speed > Safety

wonder if that's faster than picking up both ingredients...

DLDarklink

Edit history:

DLDarklink: 2014-01-15 05:09:35 pm

2014-01-15 04:52:46 pm

...

Without the ingredient pickups it's a lot harder (for me)

edit: it also works in other areas (tried it @ crustacia beach)

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-15 05:34:18 pm

Speed > Safety

What would we need to use it for in crustacia beach? B+select is how we do Saturn Skip, which is essentially what you're doing for this thing. What I want to figure out for the TAS is if picking up 2 ingredients is slower or faster than attacking with the dog at key intervals. If I can do it in one dog attack, that pretty much answers this question.

Also, for people who weren't aware, I proved on stream today that the monster drop >> container pickup does in fact work. Turned 90 jewels into 90 call beads. I forgot to test with the mammoth guard in bugmuck to see if anything fancy happens.

I'm also trying to figure out if I can do 8x Flare + 8x Storm on Aqua in the TAS and menu cancel before the game decides it hates me, which would reduce my total delay time from 8x casts down by possibly an entire 8x cast, otherwise it would be 2 8x Storms and 1 3-5x Storm (RNG dependent, plus I haven't ran numbers completely yet). Same thing for Verm. Storm has a max damage of 1100+ during an 8x cast, so I should be perfectly fine with 90 beads and not have to waste frames picking up the 3 in aqua's area like normally required. This also means no wasting time/frames with leveling up Sting.

Anywho, I'm happy to see lots of new stuff popping up we didn't know about prior, gives me hope that we'll find something in Act 2 or 3 to save a couple more minutes maybe.

What would we need to use it for in crustacia beach? B+select is how we do Saturn Skip, which is essentially what you're doing for this thing. What I want to figure out for the TAS is if picking up 2 ingredients is slower or faster than attacking with the dog at key intervals. If I can do it in one dog attack, that pretty much answers this question.

Also, for people who weren't aware, I proved on stream today that the monster drop >> container pickup does in fact work. Turned 90 jewels into 90 call beads. I forgot to test with the mammoth guard in bugmuck to see if anything fancy happens.

I'm also trying to figure out if I can do 8x Flare + 8x Storm on Aqua in the TAS and menu cancel before the game decides it hates me, which would reduce my total delay time from 8x casts down by possibly an entire 8x cast, otherwise it would be 2 8x Storms and 1 3-5x Storm (RNG dependent, plus I haven't ran numbers completely yet). Same thing for Verm. Storm has a max damage of 1100+ during an 8x cast, so I should be perfectly fine with 90 beads and not have to waste frames picking up the 3 in aqua's area like normally required. This also means no wasting time/frames with leveling up Sting.

Anywho, I'm happy to see lots of new stuff popping up we didn't know about prior, gives me hope that we'll find something in Act 2 or 3 to save a couple more minutes maybe.

DLDarklink

2014-01-15 05:42:19 pm

...

it's of no use at the beach, just wanted to try it in different areas Tongue

that's because I thought it worked only because dog was jumping on that trigger, which would make the game do weird stuf... Tongue

apparently not ^^

right now i've seen 4 different outcomes at the DE Skip:

Dog barks and goes Frog
Dog barks and sniffs, bypassing the trigger
Dog barks and does nothing
Dog barks and sniffs towards the ingredients/rocks

I'm pretty sure the TAS can get over the trigger without any problems Smiley

If it saves frames? Don't know Tongue

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-15 05:52:42 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Yeah it's pretty likely that the tas can onejump over that trigger which is awesome! Wink

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-16 09:59:24 am

Speed > Safety

Where are all the events in the Any% route that could be triggered AFTER triggering a screen transition? Knowing I can activate things in the last 5 frames of the screen being faded out really makes me think we're missing something that should be easily abused somewhere. May as well get the list going before I get to Act 2 since I imagine Magmar's gonna take a bit due to various manipulations.

Crustacia:
-nothing?

Eastern Beach:
-enter Blimp's Hut + Leave top of screen to bypass both scenes? (enter as dog) Thoughts?

Desert of Doom:
-nothing?

Nobilia:
-nothing?

River:
-Dog jumping post-transition just to see if there's an effect, doubtful.
-Triggering gondola to go across river while the dog leaves screen on the way to fighting Aegis?
-Conversely, sniffing the dog at the gondola and triggering it while heading to Western Beach?

Western Beach:
-falling in a pit and leaving at the same time still has to be tested to my knowledge

Ruins:
-Outer
--nothing?
-Main Room
--might be worth looking into some pitfalling with transitions post-hitting switches or whatever
-Top-Left
--swap to dog, leave+swap to boy, hit button (should be a couple frames faster when done properly)
-Bottom-Right
--if top-left strategy works, do that here too
-Bottom-Left
--messing with stuff here is something I already planned on doing, but it's a surprise and hopefully it works. Smiley

-Top-Right
--anything here will likely interfere with other strategies
-Top
--nothing?

Mids:
-Outer
--nothing?
-Upper Level
--I think we already do most things here as optimally as possible?
-Lower Level
--Maybe something with the stones and how the dog operates under AI rules? Probably nothing promising though.

I think that's it really, other than maybe the teleport pads on the way to Aquagoth, which I already planned on playing around with when I make it that far.

Where are all the events in the Any% route that could be triggered AFTER triggering a screen transition? Knowing I can activate things in the last 5 frames of the screen being faded out really makes me think we're missing something that should be easily abused somewhere. May as well get the list going before I get to Act 2 since I imagine Magmar's gonna take a bit due to various manipulations.

Crustacia:
-nothing?

Eastern Beach:
-enter Blimp's Hut + Leave top of screen to bypass both scenes? (enter as dog) Thoughts?

Desert of Doom:
-nothing?

Nobilia:
-nothing?

River:
-Dog jumping post-transition just to see if there's an effect, doubtful.
-Triggering gondola to go across river while the dog leaves screen on the way to fighting Aegis?
-Conversely, sniffing the dog at the gondola and triggering it while heading to Western Beach?

Western Beach:
-falling in a pit and leaving at the same time still has to be tested to my knowledge

Ruins:
-Outer
--nothing?
-Main Room
--might be worth looking into some pitfalling with transitions post-hitting switches or whatever
-Top-Left
--swap to dog, leave+swap to boy, hit button (should be a couple frames faster when done properly)
-Bottom-Right
--if top-left strategy works, do that here too
-Bottom-Left
--messing with stuff here is something I already planned on doing, but it's a surprise and hopefully it works. :)
-Top-Right
--anything here will likely interfere with other strategies
-Top
--nothing?

Mids:
-Outer
--nothing?
-Upper Level
--I think we already do most things here as optimally as possible?
-Lower Level
--Maybe something with the stones and how the dog operates under AI rules? Probably nothing promising though.

I think that's it really, other than maybe the teleport pads on the way to Aquagoth, which I already planned on playing around with when I make it that far.

Grumly

2014-01-16 01:23:03 pm

When the boy yamns, it doesn't change the X-value. I have to find something else.

DLDarklink

2014-01-16 03:48:54 pm

...

PB - 1:24:54 Smiley

Not very happy about it, but I'm getting better and better Smiley

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-01-17 12:10:24 am

TheAngryPanda: 2014-01-16 11:59:58 pm

2014-01-16 03:58:14 pm

Speed > Safety

Nice, sub 20 inc. Cheesy

Act 1 Any% TAS getting uploaded overnight, hopefully it turns out okay since I'm trying to up the quality a bit instead of the typical 360p nonsense. Will edit when it's done. Smiley

2399 frames ahead of v1.6, well over 900 ahead of v1.7.

edit: Video will be here when it's done.

CrAwEk

2014-01-17 03:42:33 am

Congrats darklink Smiley

really nice job panda, this act1 is total insane^^

GreenAmbler

2014-01-17 05:08:23 am

The Fire Eyes dialogue box skip is pretty interesting. You can store multiple movements (I think around 30 the game crashes) by repeatedly walking through the trigger to talk to the guard. You can force a character out of bounds on the left side, as well as have them walk very strange paths trying to walk to a point that is "unwalkable" terrain. Just like when I did the Early Acid Rain guy, you can get a character pretty much anywhere on the map from this (but it's quite random). Storing movements and hitting a screen transition freezes the game. You can do the "wrong entrance" thing by walking into one screen transition trigger and then another, making you enter the first place but do the movement of entering the second (like with Thraxx cutscene skip. And if you try it after beating Thraxx, you can switch characters after the "Come on, let's talk to FE" dialogue, and then you have control of both characters and can trigger more stuff with the dialogue box open (can even store movements consecutively with both characters).

Unfortunately, none of this is useful on the village screen. You can't cancel/skip the FE cutscenes this way, although amusingly you can have the first part of the cutscene play out with neither character on screen (until entering the hut). I wish I knew about this when I was looking into stored movements before, I'm not sure if there are more dialogue boxes with the same properties, but if there is maybe there is something abuseable since you can get pretty much anywhere on screen.

The Fire Eyes dialogue box skip is pretty interesting. You can store multiple movements (I think around 30 the game crashes) by repeatedly walking through the trigger to talk to the guard. You can force a character out of bounds on the left side, as well as have them walk very strange paths trying to walk to a point that is "unwalkable" terrain. Just like when I did the Early Acid Rain guy, you can get a character pretty much anywhere on the map from this (but it's quite random). Storing movements and hitting a screen transition freezes the game. You can do the "wrong entrance" thing by walking into one screen transition trigger and then another, making you enter the first place but do the movement of entering the second (like with Thraxx cutscene skip. And if you try it after beating Thraxx, you can switch characters after the "Come on, let's talk to FE" dialogue, and then you have control of both characters and can trigger more stuff with the dialogue box open (can even store movements consecutively with both characters).

Unfortunately, none of this is useful on the village screen. You can't cancel/skip the FE cutscenes this way, although amusingly you can have the first part of the cutscene play out with neither character on screen (until entering the hut). I wish I knew about this when I was looking into stored movements before, I'm not sure if there are more dialogue boxes with the same properties, but if there is maybe there is something abuseable since you can get pretty much anywhere on screen.

DLDarklink

2014-01-17 06:56:56 am

...

The stored movement only works on the next screen? I wonder if this can be done in crustacia..........

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-17 07:07:42 am

Speed > Safety

I posted how it works a while back, should probably re-post that here since we're talking about it again:

Dog @ Exit A (exits up)
Boy @ Exit B (exits left)

Dog leaves screen + player hits select to swap to boy (same frame)
Boy leaves screen

The game loads the Dog's map + Boy's movement storage for the next area.

Conversely, if Boy leaves through his exit first, it will store Dog's movement and Boy's map instead.

Now what's fun with this trick is knowing that multiple areas (and apparently their exits/entrances) are stored on the same map sometimes, as seen in the TAS with the volcano sewers thing. Also, as GA found previously, you can force movement events upon a character repeatedly by constantly hitting a trigger over and over. The auto-walking AI will clip through anything I think.

As for crustacia/eastern beach/river/whatever, I haven't found anything useful yet, but am open to suggestions. The fact that we have a left, right, or up exit kind of screws us. We also cannot switch to the dog while entering another screen because it will softlock. The event trigger for the cave doesn't actually move the character, it acts as a transitional event which is why it pulls the dog downwards. So sadly, that doesn't work either with current testing. Now what hasn't been tested, to my knowledge, is LEAVING the area and THEN entering the cave with a character. I had planned on testing this today sometime to see what happens on stream, as well as a few other things.

What would be amazing is if there were a way to skip getting the axe in mids somehow with the OoB thing GA's been doing. I haven't figured out where or how this would work though, and we'd have to somehow get the dog up to the top of the pyramid to hit the button.

I posted how it works a while back, should probably re-post that here since we're talking about it again:

Dog @ Exit A (exits up)
Boy @ Exit B (exits left)

Dog leaves screen + player hits select to swap to boy (same frame)
Boy leaves screen

The game loads the Dog's map + Boy's movement storage for the next area.

Conversely, if Boy leaves through his exit first, it will store Dog's movement and Boy's map instead.

Now what's fun with this trick is knowing that multiple areas (and apparently their exits/entrances) are stored on the same map sometimes, as seen in the TAS with the volcano sewers thing. Also, as GA found previously, you can force movement events upon a character repeatedly by constantly hitting a trigger over and over. The auto-walking AI will clip through anything I think.

As for crustacia/eastern beach/river/whatever, I haven't found anything useful yet, but am open to suggestions. The fact that we have a left, right, or up exit kind of screws us. We also cannot switch to the dog while entering another screen because it will softlock. The event trigger for the cave doesn't actually move the character, it acts as a transitional event which is why it pulls the dog downwards. So sadly, that doesn't work either with current testing. Now what hasn't been tested, to my knowledge, is LEAVING the area and THEN entering the cave with a character. I had planned on testing this today sometime to see what happens on stream, as well as a few other things.

What would be amazing is if there were a way to skip getting the axe in mids somehow with the OoB thing GA's been doing. I haven't figured out where or how this would work though, and we'd have to somehow get the dog up to the top of the pyramid to hit the button.

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-17 08:06:23 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Great thoughts, but the thing at the myds wont work unfortunately. The Door you smash with the axe to the dog is the trigger for reuniting them. (on the pyramid maps) In other words, if the door isnt destroyed, the dog isnt officially a party member and will not be able to push the switch on top of the pyramid!