Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2013-12-07 01:33:00 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

I should make the point Panda (And if I failed to do so my apologizes XD) but the Jade Disk is something you should be getting BEFORE you do the Atlas Glitch as you can get the Jade Disk on the very first Nobilla entering. I'll be making a video of what I mean here soon when I put together the video for the desert and how you can farm the money (And all that BS)

TheAngryPanda

2013-12-08 12:25:01 am

Speed > Safety

Quote from GreenAmbler:

Also: Been testing some routing stuff since I'm messing around in Act 3. I was trying to see how much slower it is to completely avoid the jail/sewers/Verm in Ebon Keep by running through the woods twice. I'm getting it around 1:15+ slower, although I get raped going through the chessboard 2 extra times, would be less with Invul/Wings for sure. I'm assuming the preparation for Verm (stocking/leveling crush) costs less than a minute so this is probably not an improvement. Might make Sting more viable?

I seem to have overlooked this earlier when reading your post. In any test I've ever done, going back through the forest ended up costing more time than just proceeding as normal. That being said, I had planned to test it again now that I have a much more in depth knowledge of movement/map mechanics in the game to reduce frame loss from lag, poor movement, and enemy manipulations. This is obviously speaking on TAS terms, so I'm not sure of the implications it may or may not have on an actual attempt. Personally I don't see it being faster, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on this one.

Regarding Sting though, it sounds like it would save time, but it wouldn't. Sting is only viable if you can pull off the Horace Skip (which is frame perfect and "hard" to do). This trick hasn't been put in the route yet because I don't think it can be reliably done fast enough to make Sting better than Crush for Any%. This is even further stretched by the fact that we've gained ~4-6s in Act 2 from the recent reroute on when to buy ingredients. Any% has little to no chance of ever incorporating Sting into it's route because at this point we're only gaining the time from menu cancelling differences, which isn't much.

[quote="GreenAmbler"]

Also: Been testing some routing stuff since I'm messing around in Act 3. I was trying to see how much slower it is to completely avoid the jail/sewers/Verm in Ebon Keep by running through the woods twice. I'm getting it around 1:15+ slower, although I get raped going through the chessboard 2 extra times, would be less with Invul/Wings for sure. I'm assuming the preparation for Verm (stocking/leveling crush) costs less than a minute so this is probably not an improvement. Might make Sting more viable?

[/quote]

I seem to have overlooked this earlier when reading your post. In any test I've ever done, going back through the forest ended up costing more time than just proceeding as normal. That being said, I had planned to test it again now that I have a much more in depth knowledge of movement/map mechanics in the game to reduce frame loss from lag, poor movement, and enemy manipulations. This is obviously speaking on TAS terms, so I'm not sure of the implications it may or may not have on an actual attempt. Personally I don't see it being faster, but I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on this one.

Regarding Sting though, it sounds like it would save time, but it wouldn't. Sting is only viable if you can pull off the Horace Skip (which is frame perfect and "hard" to do). This trick hasn't been put in the route yet because I don't think it can be reliably done fast enough to make Sting better than Crush for Any%. This is even further stretched by the fact that we've gained ~4-6s in Act 2 from the recent reroute on when to buy ingredients. Any% has little to no chance of ever incorporating Sting into it's route because at this point we're only gaining the time from menu cancelling differences, which isn't much.

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2013-12-08 05:42:04 am

GreenAmbler: 2013-12-08 05:20:31 am

2013-12-08 04:34:50 am

I mentioned Sting because with only Aquagoth to prepare for, maybe you'd only need like 30 Sting total to get it to level 2, and since it's a bit stronger it would make the Call Bead spells stronger and you could rely on them for most of the damage. Plus, since it's easier to menu-cancel, maybe even just cast all of it on Aqua instead of leveling on other parts so at least the damage is useful. I'm not sure how many Vinegar you can get without purchasing, but it's probably only like 15ish, so probably not enough to really help.

I haven't really tested all this Sting stuff much so this is mostly guess-work, I figured you would already have the knowledge to confirm/dismiss it's viability but figured I'd mention it just in case. Same with the Plant RNG; I know their actions change every frame/movement, but it still seems to me like it's not a True Randomness. The main thing attacking seems to do is get really quick back-to-back snipes, quicker than I ever remember seeing. Also, another observation I've had was sometimes it seems like a plant will attack very slowly and other times very quickly/consistently. But I know you've already looked into this stuff so if you're saying it's all just completely random I shall take your word on it Smiley

Another small and largely insignificant thing is that we exchange money at the woman in the main market area, why not just do it at the the shop where we get wings/pixie dust? I know it's during the 15 min but if it gives you like 3 more seconds to play with why not?

I mentioned Sting because with only Aquagoth to prepare for, maybe you'd only need like 30 Sting total to get it to level 2, and since it's a bit stronger it would make the Call Bead spells stronger and you could rely on them for most of the damage. Plus, since it's easier to menu-cancel, maybe even just cast all of it on Aqua instead of leveling on other parts so at least the damage is useful. I'm not sure how many Vinegar you can get without purchasing, but it's probably only like 15ish, so probably not enough to really help.

I haven't really tested all this Sting stuff much so this is mostly guess-work, I figured you would already have the knowledge to confirm/dismiss it's viability but figured I'd mention it just in case. Same with the Plant RNG; I know their actions change every frame/movement, but it still seems to me like it's not a True Randomness. The main thing attacking seems to do is get really quick back-to-back snipes, quicker than I ever remember seeing. Also, another observation I've had was sometimes it seems like a plant will attack very slowly and other times very quickly/consistently. But I know you've already looked into this stuff so if you're saying it's all just completely random I shall take your word on it :)

Another small and largely insignificant thing is that we exchange money at the woman in the main market area, why not just do it at the the shop where we get wings/pixie dust? I know it's during the 15 min but if it gives you like 3 more seconds to play with why not?

TheAngryPanda

2013-12-08 07:27:07 am

Speed > Safety

Since it's during the 14 minute timer it really wouldn't matter for buying from anywhere so long as it wasn't providing extra screen transitions or opening the menu. I'm pretty sure the timer runs continuously during the current route, but I've mentioned to everyone running the game that they COULD purchase in the shop if they wanted to in order to make the route seem "smoother." If a timer advance is ever found for the 14 minutes, we would instantly use the shop keeper.

Sting's viability in Any% is unfortunately tied to Horace's assistant unless we find a way to force a 75 jewel drop near the vinegar pickup or find a different (and faster) way of obtaining 75 vinegar. I didn't have any luck in this. Reducing the amount doesn't affect either of those scenarios, so saving casting count wouldn't do anything either. I was really sad when I realized this because Sting could have been a nice time saving thing had it worked out properly.

The plant's attack rapidly simply because you interrupt the original attack pattern they'd have by re-rolling another one via player frame inputs as opposed to just letting it roll. Sniffing has the same result but if you're feeling like attacking really does affect the flowers, I'll go back and look into it sometime today for you. You could also mention it to the people running the game and let them test it as well. They don't lose any time by attacking so it's not like it would hurt, so long as they don't actually HIT the flowers, lol.

Sting lvl 2 + CB's to kill off Aqua is something I tested a while back, but I hadn't bothered throwing a Verm skip in because it's somewhat unreliable on consoles for some reason. It gives a strange audio cue and freezes the game up. That being said, with the discovery of Horace Skip, this is pretty much Sting's ONLY method of being useful in Any%, but this also comes with the price of losing minutes of time if you miss the frame perfect Horace Skip. I'll see if we can get some people to test this because I honestly forgot all about it until you just mentioned it. Meta said he might be up for it later, so perhaps go talk to him today and tell him exactly what it is you're doing so we get accurate results. Theory says it'll work and save a nice amount of time.

-Verm Skip comes with a price though on console. It used to crash the game with a multiple audio track being played due to conflicting scenarios that could occur. This is why it's not in there already, but perhaps you've accidentally stumbled upon a way around it. It's worth checking out for sure.

Since it's during the 14 minute timer it really wouldn't matter for buying from anywhere so long as it wasn't providing extra screen transitions or opening the menu. I'm pretty sure the timer runs continuously during the current route, but I've mentioned to everyone running the game that they COULD purchase in the shop if they wanted to in order to make the route seem "smoother." If a timer advance is ever found for the 14 minutes, we would instantly use the shop keeper.

Sting's viability in Any% is unfortunately tied to Horace's assistant unless we find a way to force a 75 jewel drop near the vinegar pickup or find a different (and faster) way of obtaining 75 vinegar. I didn't have any luck in this. Reducing the amount doesn't affect either of those scenarios, so saving casting count wouldn't do anything either. I was really sad when I realized this because Sting could have been a nice time saving thing had it worked out properly.

The plant's attack rapidly simply because you interrupt the original attack pattern they'd have by re-rolling another one via player frame inputs as opposed to just letting it roll. Sniffing has the same result but if you're feeling like attacking really does affect the flowers, I'll go back and look into it sometime today for you. You could also mention it to the people running the game and let them test it as well. They don't lose any time by attacking so it's not like it would hurt, so long as they don't actually HIT the flowers, lol.

Sting lvl 2 + CB's to kill off Aqua is something I tested a while back, but I hadn't bothered throwing a Verm skip in because it's somewhat unreliable on consoles for some reason. It gives a strange audio cue and freezes the game up. That being said, with the discovery of Horace Skip, this is pretty much Sting's ONLY method of being useful in Any%, but this also comes with the price of losing minutes of time if you miss the frame perfect Horace Skip. I'll see if we can get some people to test this because I honestly forgot all about it until you just mentioned it. Meta said he might be up for it later, so perhaps go talk to him today and tell him exactly what it is you're doing so we get accurate results. Theory says it'll work and save a nice amount of time.

-Verm Skip comes with a price though on console. It used to crash the game with a multiple audio track being played due to conflicting scenarios that could occur. This is why it's not in there already, but perhaps you've accidentally stumbled upon a way around it. It's worth checking out for sure.

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2013-12-08 09:27:51 am

2013-12-08 09:21:52 am

Yeah I know it doesn't really matter where you exchange money overall, but if we are utilizing close to the entire 14 mins now, an extra 3 seconds to play around with wouldn't hurt, especially for people not as good at the grinding portion. Basically, it can only help.

You're probably right about the plant RNG manipulation just being a placebo, can't really be sure. Kinda like holding down buttons while trying to catch Pokemon haha

Verm skip crashes the game when you enter the Jail in Ebon Keep, I believe it's because the game doesn't like when you enter it for the first time from anything other than the Sewers entrance. The route I was referring to was: Enter Ebon Keep Sewers, Wings x2 back thru forest, take Chessboard entrance to Ebon Keep, Get Knight Basher, Run back thru the Forest and enter Gomi's Tower. Time cost from this is hard to determine for a run, real time no defend run will suffer from the chessboard 2 extra times, but an Invul run would probably cost around a minute. Crush stocking/leveling probably costs around 50-60 seconds. So it's already a time loss without any detouring for alternative Aquagoth kill, which at minimum would add like 20-30 seconds I'm guessing. Also, just checked and level 2 Sting doesn't even boost call bead damage, so that's irrelevant. On a different note, it might still be better for a Sting route to only use it during Aquagoth battle and menu-cancel rather than leveling prior to the battle, but probably too risky with the extra spells going on during the fight. (better for TAS? should only need three 8 casts of Sting + 7 cast of Flare, or four 8 casts and a 2 cast Flare)

Just curious, do you know where the vinegar pickups are? I know there's 1 outside Blimp's cave, and 2 outside Coliseum, which can get you 10 total.

Yeah I know it doesn't really matter where you exchange money overall, but if we are utilizing close to the entire 14 mins now, an extra 3 seconds to play around with wouldn't hurt, especially for people not as good at the grinding portion. Basically, it can only help.

You're probably right about the plant RNG manipulation just being a placebo, can't really be sure. Kinda like holding down buttons while trying to catch Pokemon haha

Verm skip crashes the game when you enter the Jail in Ebon Keep, I believe it's because the game doesn't like when you enter it for the first time from anything other than the Sewers entrance. The route I was referring to was: Enter Ebon Keep Sewers, Wings x2 back thru forest, take Chessboard entrance to Ebon Keep, Get Knight Basher, Run back thru the Forest and enter Gomi's Tower. Time cost from this is hard to determine for a run, real time no defend run will suffer from the chessboard 2 extra times, but an Invul run would probably cost around a minute. Crush stocking/leveling probably costs around 50-60 seconds. So it's already a time loss without any detouring for alternative Aquagoth kill, which at minimum would add like 20-30 seconds I'm guessing. Also, just checked and level 2 Sting doesn't even boost call bead damage, so that's irrelevant. On a different note, it might still be better for a Sting route to only use it during Aquagoth battle and menu-cancel rather than leveling prior to the battle, but probably too risky with the extra spells going on during the fight. (better for TAS? should only need three 8 casts of Sting + 7 cast of Flare, or four 8 casts and a 2 cast Flare)

Just curious, do you know where the vinegar pickups are? I know there's 1 outside Blimp's cave, and 2 outside Coliseum, which can get you 10 total.

TheAngryPanda

2013-12-08 09:46:31 am

Speed > Safety

I had a list of all the pickups for everything in Act 1 and Act 2, but I seem to have misplaced it. That being said, I do know there isn't enough on the ground to even get to level 2 Sting.

Since Sting lvl 2 doesn't boost CB damage, perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way. What if we could get away with just leveling Crush to lvl 2, bypass Verm (somehow), and utilize CB's to the full extent we can?

TAS uses Sting for Any% because I can do the 75 jewels > 75 Vinegar trick as well as farm enough Water in the desert and use the river Water pickup to gain another 40 if/when needed. There's nothing faster than this with current knowledge, but it's not viable in real-time, of course.

I think we do exchange money at the shop in 100%, by the way. Or rather, it's an option. Any% will likely never be THAT tight during the 14 minutes, unless someone is doing something wrong.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-12-10 02:18:04 pm

2013-12-10 02:17:24 pm

Speed > Safety

GA, I've been toying with stuff on the TAS. Would you mind explaining exactly when and how you're opening chests/gourds with the dog via the char switch? Am I correct in assuming this is a frame perfect thing? If so, for some reason I'm not able to replicate the results. Do you have a video of it that you could highlight really quickly?

The place I'm most hopeful for is the Quicksand Area crystal container. The TAS (and players) have to wait here in order for the boy to catch up to the dog. Having this trigger glitch activate via the dog instead of the boy would save me a ton of time. This could also potentially be used in bugmuck itself to make use of the Ingredient Flag Glitch in tandem with this new glitch in order to pick up various things throughout the area which cuts down on other places. It's honestly something that has totally destroyed the old route I had for the TAS, which is great. Fractions of a seconds is a vast understatement by the way, this has potential to save minutes and remove some sketchy things from the TAS as well.

Anywho, video or text details would be amazing if you don't mind.

GA, I've been toying with stuff on the TAS. Would you mind explaining exactly when and how you're opening chests/gourds with the dog via the char switch? Am I correct in assuming this is a frame perfect thing? If so, for some reason I'm not able to replicate the results. Do you have a video of it that you could highlight really quickly?

The place I'm most hopeful for is the Quicksand Area crystal container. The TAS (and players) have to wait here in order for the boy to catch up to the dog. Having this trigger glitch activate via the dog instead of the boy would save me a ton of time. This could also potentially be used in bugmuck itself to make use of the Ingredient Flag Glitch in tandem with this new glitch in order to pick up various things throughout the area which cuts down on other places. It's honestly something that has totally destroyed the old route I had for the TAS, which is great. Fractions of a seconds is a vast understatement by the way, this has potential to save minutes and remove some sketchy things from the TAS as well.

Anywho, video or text details would be amazing if you don't mind.

DLDarklink

Edit history:

DLDarklink: 2013-12-11 03:59:12 pm

DLDarklink: 2013-12-10 04:00:41 pm

2013-12-10 03:58:32 pm

...

~~It works on ingredients too~~ ^^ GA already mentioned that

I place the dog at a gourd/pickup/etc hold select and mash B (like the Saturn Skip). Hope it helps Smiley

MetaSigma

2013-12-10 03:59:38 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

wait wait wait, gourds or pickups on the ground?

DLDarklink

2013-12-10 04:00:48 pm

...

Both :O

MetaSigma

2013-12-10 04:00:58 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Whaaaa?

MetaSigma

2013-12-10 04:01:27 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

On CONSOLE or emulator? I'm gonna test on Console now

DLDarklink

2013-12-10 04:01:55 pm

...

i'm doing it on console right now Tongue

MetaSigma

2013-12-10 04:02:23 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Dude make a video of how you do it, like both gourds AND ground picks. Panda and I wanna see this.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-12-10 04:22:35 pm

2013-12-10 04:03:16 pm

Speed > Safety

That's what I've been trying in the TAS to replicate the pickup, I think I may be encountering some sort of input block of some sort. I plan to try some more things later on tonight when I'm not so focused on blowing things up in a shooter. I have a feeling what appears to be frame by frame isn't necessarily exactly what we think. Of course, it's also possible that I'm just failing at inputs. Either way, I'll have it figured out eventually. I had the same issue with leashing the dog a while back, which is crazily difficult on the TAS w/o the "slow" method.

edit:

alright, it's basically just me being on a frame that doesn't accept input for whatever reason. Glad it's not something like the leashing... Now to reroute the TAS and see where I can pick up from since this really destroyed the old route in a significant manner.

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2013-12-10 06:51:03 pm

2013-12-10 06:49:03 pm

Alright so you got it figure out then? The only way I could do it was with menu buffering, which would basically negate time saved in most cases. Not sure if there's a better way like with new Omnitopia skip, still not entirely sure how that works. But as Darklink mentioned, the old Omnitopia Skip method of just holding Select and mashing B should work (with the same lowish success rate). This is how I do it if you wanna mess around with it: Have dog facing a pickup so that hitting the B button does not make him attack. Y to bring up menu. Y to close menu, while menu if fading out, Hold B and then while still holding B, press Y to bring up the menu again (so a "B action" is cued for next frame). Then hold Select, and while holding select, press Y again to fadeout the menu and immediately switch to the boy, at which point the boy will do the Pickup animation from wherever he's standing. This is the same way I menu buffer for frame by frame movements like with the easier Blimp skip, only replace B with whichever direction you want to advance. So once again: Y for menu, Y>Hold B>Hold Y all before fadeout, Hold Select>Y. I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as frame by frame advancing so maybe it's a bit different performing for the TAS.

Here's a highlight just for demonstration purposes: http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/3374693
I also highlighted menu-canceling Rimsala's Confound spell, which is easy and saves a second or two: http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/3362288
Also reiterating that people should hold B as soon as you enter Thraxx battle so Dog attacks and moves forward slightly faster, since that may have gotten buried

Alright so you got it figure out then? The only way I could do it was with menu buffering, which would basically negate time saved in most cases. Not sure if there's a better way like with new Omnitopia skip, still not entirely sure how that works. But as Darklink mentioned, the old Omnitopia Skip method of just holding Select and mashing B should work (with the same lowish success rate). This is how I do it if you wanna mess around with it: Have dog facing a pickup so that hitting the B button does not make him attack. Y to bring up menu. Y to close menu, while menu if fading out, Hold B and then while still holding B, press Y to bring up the menu again (so a "B action" is cued for next frame). Then hold Select, and while holding select, press Y again to fadeout the menu and immediately switch to the boy, at which point the boy will do the Pickup animation from wherever he's standing. This is the same way I menu buffer for frame by frame movements like with the easier Blimp skip, only replace B with whichever direction you want to advance. So once again: Y for menu, Y>Hold B>Hold Y all before fadeout, Hold Select>Y. I'm not sure if this is exactly the same as frame by frame advancing so maybe it's a bit different performing for the TAS.

Here's a highlight just for demonstration purposes: http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/3374693
I also highlighted menu-canceling Rimsala's Confound spell, which is easy and saves a second or two: http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/3362288
Also reiterating that people should hold B as soon as you enter Thraxx battle so Dog attacks and moves forward slightly faster, since that may have gotten buried

TheAngryPanda

2013-12-10 07:06:03 pm

Speed > Safety

The way all of these work is as follows:

00: initial frame for reference, player is controlling dog, boy is alive and not performing an event (attacking, talking, anything other than basic AI movement)
01: player hits B to "attack" with dog (the "event" is tripped here, but delayed until another trigger recognizes what character you're on during the next frame)
02: player hits select to switch to boy (this sets the boy as the person that has triggered the "event")
03: boy performs event result
04: player might be able to change back to dog with the select button to continue while the event continues on the boy (theory)

On Saturn Skip, we trigger the "enter door" event.
On IFG (TAS-only Ingredient Flag Glitch), we're triggering the flag that sets the increment amount for additional ingredients on the next pickup (this is how the monster drop >>> ingredient pickup works)
On Blimp Skip, we trigger the cave entering scene (this is different from the Saturn Skip in that it shows the glitch can be done from either controllable character)
On Horace Skip, we trigger the Horace cutscene and the exiting scene at once on both characters, these do some fancy dancing in the code and override each other (currently not used)

Some theorycrafting:

We could potentially abuse this by having the dog pick up something while the boy is "on" a separate event trigger. This may produce some weird results, as far as I know, nothing like this has been tested. A simple event test would be leaving an area while picking something up and seeing if you can "duplicate" the pickup this way, as the boy would leave the area before completing the event of picking up the item (in theory, since it hasn't been tested, we don't know for sure... unless GA's tested it?).

The TAS method of the glitch is the input frames above exactly.

Also, skipping Rimsala's Confound is a great find and I honestly have no clue why none of us hadn't thought to try it yet.

As for the Thraxx thing, would that work on top of the cutscene skip you found as well? If so, I definitely need to test (and probably include) them in the TAS setting.

A thing we need to check for extremely thoroughly with this "new" stuff is the pig race cutscene stuff as well as numerous other things in Act 3 that we may be able to abuse these glitches on. Act 4 is basically as fast as it can get currently.

The way all of these work is as follows:

00: initial frame for reference, player is controlling dog, boy is alive and not performing an event (attacking, talking, anything other than basic AI movement)
01: player hits B to "attack" with dog (the "event" is tripped here, but delayed until another trigger recognizes what character you're on during the next frame)
02: player hits select to switch to boy (this sets the boy as the person that has triggered the "event")
03: boy performs event result
04: player might be able to change back to dog with the select button to continue while the event continues on the boy (theory)

On Saturn Skip, we trigger the "enter door" event.
On IFG (TAS-only Ingredient Flag Glitch), we're triggering the flag that sets the increment amount for additional ingredients on the next pickup (this is how the monster drop >>> ingredient pickup works)
On Blimp Skip, we trigger the cave entering scene (this is different from the Saturn Skip in that it shows the glitch can be done from either controllable character)
On Horace Skip, we trigger the Horace cutscene and the exiting scene at once on both characters, these do some fancy dancing in the code and override each other (currently not used)

Some theorycrafting:

We could potentially abuse this by having the dog pick up something while the boy is "on" a separate event trigger. This may produce some weird results, as far as I know, nothing like this has been tested. A simple event test would be leaving an area while picking something up and seeing if you can "duplicate" the pickup this way, as the boy would leave the area before completing the event of picking up the item (in theory, since it hasn't been tested, we don't know for sure... unless GA's tested it?).

The TAS method of the glitch is the input frames above exactly.

Also, skipping Rimsala's Confound is a great find and I honestly have no clue why none of us hadn't thought to try it yet.

As for the Thraxx thing, would that work on top of the cutscene skip you found as well? If so, I definitely need to test (and probably include) them in the TAS setting.

A thing we need to check for extremely thoroughly with this "new" stuff is the pig race cutscene stuff as well as numerous other things in Act 3 that we may be able to abuse these glitches on. Act 4 is basically as fast as it can get currently.

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2013-12-10 07:34:04 pm

GreenAmbler: 2013-12-10 07:28:38 pm

2013-12-10 07:23:40 pm

I tried using the small window during beginning of Thraxx fight to attack downwards with the dog, but it's already too late; you still need to do some fancy/tricky switching on the previous screen. I didn't think to try the aforementioned Dog triggers with the boy on a separate trigger, I found that pretty late in my super thorough frame by frame testing unfortunately. Also keep in mind that the dog can trigger NPC dialogues this way as well

While I'm highlighting stuff I found but barely mentioned, you can switch to the Boy as the Dog steps onto the switches in the Pyramids to save yourself from having to scroll the camera back and fourth an extra time. Actually, Saturn found this awhile ago but I'm guessing it was forgotten. Tricky for a real time run, but not too punishing if you mess up or need to menu buffer. http://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/c/3374889

TheAngryPanda

2013-12-10 07:45:08 pm

Speed > Safety

yeah, that was in the route test TAS I made. Saturn pointed it out the same time he found the Saturn Skip in omnitopia, or at least it's initial form. Great time saver in the TAS. Smiley

GreenAmbler

2013-12-10 07:58:47 pm

As for the theorycraft you mentioned, so far I just tried an ingredient pickup with the boy on an exit trigger. The boy has time to complete the pickup before the screen transition takes place, so no duplication is possible this way. The tricky thing is getting the boy onto a trigger without actually triggering it. The only way I know how is using the AI movements if there is an enemy nearby, like I do with the Thraxx cutscene skip. The only other method would be if it's a screen you enter that has the second character standing on the screen transition trigger already, and holding the Boy in place with a petal. I tried to skip the Fire Eyes cutscene this way, but that cutscene has priority over EVERYTHING once triggered. Other cutscenes and stuff may still have potential, but I'm not sure. I've already tried triggering things with the Boy and switching to the Dog on a different trigger, so this would have to be something the needs the Boy to trigger for a unique result.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-12-10 08:10:48 pm

2013-12-10 08:10:06 pm

Speed > Safety

Lemon bypassed the initial cutscene for Fire Eyes a while back, but it's a bad idea regardless because we need the call beads for Act 1. In 100%, we can't skip either scene because we need the Flare alchemy AND the CBs from the post-thraxx scene. The key was the trigger the scene outside with one character and enter another hut with the other.

Would be cute to find a Magmar scene skip but I don't think it's possible.
Vigor's intro in tied to a scene prior in the holding area.
Ruins doesn't really hold any hidden treasure that we aren't already aware of. The early Mad Monk thing is something I really need to look into.
Mids is basically "solved" in terms of current knowledge tricks, I don't see us finding much here.
Aegis scene might be something to try toying around with, but I'm doubtful of results because of how the game works at that point, plus we may lock ourselves into that section. Worth testing though.
Aquagoth really doesn't need much unless we can find a way to quickly force the boy into his hit box and melee, which would re-route the entire Act.

Act 3 has TONS of scenes that have potential. I'm unsure of how much testing has taken place here, and I highly doubt all ideas have been tested. When/If I ever get here in the TAS, it'll be gone over repeatedly with tons of testing. Real-time stuff I'm not too sure about, menu buffering might be worth it if we can pull off some sort of banquet skip to bypass crap easier, but it's a long shit.

Act 4 has nothing unless there's a faster way into the boss or overworld area.

edit: Oh, and if we ever find a way to bypass River during 14 minutes, the game will probably go sub hour instantly.

Lemon bypassed the initial cutscene for Fire Eyes a while back, but it's a bad idea regardless because we need the call beads for Act 1. In 100%, we can't skip either scene because we need the Flare alchemy AND the CBs from the post-thraxx scene. The key was the trigger the scene outside with one character and enter another hut with the other.

Would be cute to find a Magmar scene skip but I don't think it's possible. 
Vigor's intro in tied to a scene prior in the holding area.
Ruins doesn't really hold any hidden treasure that we aren't already aware of. The early Mad Monk thing is something I really need to look into.
Mids is basically "solved" in terms of current knowledge tricks, I don't see us finding much here.
Aegis scene might be something to try toying around with, but I'm doubtful of results because of how the game works at that point, plus we may lock ourselves into that section. Worth testing though.
Aquagoth really doesn't need much unless we can find a way to quickly force the boy into his hit box and melee, which would re-route the entire Act.

Act 3 has TONS of scenes that have potential. I'm unsure of how much testing has taken place here, and I highly doubt all ideas have been tested. When/If I ever get here in the TAS, it'll be gone over repeatedly with tons of testing. Real-time stuff I'm not too sure about, menu buffering might be worth it if we can pull off some sort of banquet skip to bypass crap easier, but it's a long shit.

Act 4 has nothing unless there's a faster way into the boss or overworld area.

edit: Oh, and if we ever find a way to bypass River during 14 minutes, the game will probably go sub hour instantly.

GreenAmbler

2013-12-10 10:10:42 pm

I don't see how Magmar scene could be skipped, seems to be on a timer once you enter the area.
Mad Monk seems totally random, I think it sometimes spawns too far away to walk over towards you ever, and even if it doesn't, it walking is not very consistent. Could still take Dog across bridge and right to scroll camera but even then there's a good chance it will take just as long if not longer to clear (at BEST might save ~5-10 seconds with 8 casting).
Pre-Aegis probably can't be messed with, entering with both diamond eyes immediately paths you to cutscene, Post-Aegis you are stuck in the battle area even if you can run around during cutscene.
I don't see how we could ever melee Aqua but also haven't really bother to check. There's no way I could think of to force the boy past the walkable ground

Act 3: Probably can't do anything with Pig Race. The doors to rooms on either side of the Freakshow Exhibit do have a second or two where you still have control after triggering before the screen transition, but I bet it's not enough time to trigger the event with the dog. Everything else is on tracks until Banquet Skip. At which point, the party is separated until Dark Forest (or Jail without Banquet Skip, but there's no cutscene's you could skip that way either). No cutscenes/triggers dependent on the boy other than Knight Basher pickup and destroying barricades, and then the gauges; none of which would benefit except maybe some fancy miniscule TAS savings.

In fact that's probably the only use of this (for any% at least) unless I'm overlooking something; should be plenty of opportunities to utilize in the TAS, especially Act 1 since Dog is faster. I believe it will help save frames for: 7 clay pickup, IFG, most ingredient pickups (post Jaguar Ring), talking to Hardball Guy/Acid Rain Guy. Other acts will likely have a few convenient uses, maybe you could open the Rimsala door a few frames faster by having boy hit first switch and then switch to the dog while hitting the second switch (doesn't work until party is reunited). Actually I can't think of any other uses at the moment.

I don't see how Magmar scene could be skipped, seems to be on a timer once you enter the area.
Mad Monk seems totally random, I think it sometimes spawns too far away to walk over towards you ever, and even if it doesn't, it walking is not very consistent. Could still take Dog across bridge and right to scroll camera but even then there's a good chance it will take just as long if not longer to clear (at BEST might save ~5-10 seconds with 8 casting).
Pre-Aegis probably can't be messed with, entering with both diamond eyes immediately paths you to cutscene, Post-Aegis you are stuck in the battle area even if you can run around during cutscene.
I don't see how we could ever melee Aqua but also haven't really bother to check. There's no way I could think of to force the boy past the walkable ground

Act 3: Probably can't do anything with Pig Race. The doors to rooms on either side of the Freakshow Exhibit do have a second or two where you still have control after triggering before the screen transition, but I bet it's not enough time to trigger the event with the dog. Everything else is on tracks until Banquet Skip. At which point, the party is separated until Dark Forest (or Jail without Banquet Skip, but there's no cutscene's you could skip that way either). No cutscenes/triggers dependent on the boy other than Knight Basher pickup and destroying barricades, and then the gauges; none of which would benefit except maybe some fancy miniscule TAS savings.

In fact that's probably the only use of this (for any% at least) unless I'm overlooking something; should be plenty of opportunities to utilize in the TAS, especially Act 1 since Dog is faster. I believe it will help save frames for: 7 clay pickup, IFG, most ingredient pickups (post Jaguar Ring), talking to Hardball Guy/Acid Rain Guy. Other acts will likely have a few convenient uses, maybe you could open the Rimsala door a few frames faster by having boy hit first switch and then switch to the dog while hitting the second switch (doesn't work until party is reunited). Actually I can't think of any other uses at the moment.

TheAngryPanda

2013-12-10 10:44:08 pm

Speed > Safety

it won't save frames for the 7 clay pickups over what I already have, mostly because we don't have sprint by that point. just about everything post-sprint is likely getting re-done though.

Acid Rain Guy has a cutscene attached to it that places the dog further from the vendor, so boy is still optimal there, even for leaving the area. There's a lot of minor stuff though I can do with this which will save quite a large amount of time for the TAS. Any%/100% are likely doomed to not really being able to use it except in a select few areas IF things end up being worth it, mostly because menu buffering takes a somewhat solid chunk of time, even when you're quick at it.

I agree Act 3 probably doesn't have much that will actually end up being useful, but I have this annoying feeling that we're overlooking something there that can save us a bit of time. We'll figure it out eventually though.

MetaSigma

2013-12-11 07:07:45 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

1:22:53 <----No defend

Now before I hear the whole ohhhhhh see I told you Defend is better!!! BS let me explain a couple of things. I played like absolute CRAP and I'm talking so bad I FORGOT how to play for at least 2 whole minutes worth of mistakes. So that's 1:20:53. Ok, now before you go OH that's still worse than the WR!!! Let me explain further. The WR got some ABSURD good luck in the run. I got some really ugly luck and on top of that I was testing out stuff I'd never DONE before which no joke cost me OVER 2 minutes. So all that being said if I had to cut all that out my run would have timed around 1:18:10 on an average run. No Defend will go farther than Defend by leaps and bounds once you learn it. I don't give a damn how hard it is. If you want to QQ about it then this game isn't for you.

If I can do it, and play that badly and still get a 1:22:53. Then it's time we drop the crutch and shoot for some serious runs.

Scettles

2013-12-12 02:25:08 pm

A new challenger approaches...