Secret of Evermore (SNES)

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2013-10-06 06:10:47 pm

AsFarAsIGet: 2013-10-06 06:09:32 pm

2013-10-06 06:06:23 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

As thought the game can only handle 4 effects on one characther at once. If a fifth status/boost is added the first one gets overridden. The Duration and Ticks always vary. (For Spells that boost something the Ticks become the boosted value!)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Boy --- Dog ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4ECF 1st ID --- 7E4F7D 1st ID
7E4ED1 1st Duration --- 7E4F7F 1st Duration
7E4ED3 1st Ticks --- 7E4F81 1st Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4ED5 2nd ID --- 7E4F83 2nd ID
7E4ED7 2nd Duration --- 7E4F85 2nd Duration
7E4ED9 2nd Ticks --- 7E4F87 2nd Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4EDB 3rd ID --- 7E4F89 3rd ID
7E4EDD 3rd Duration --- 7E4F8B 3rd Duration
7E4EDF 3rd Ticks --- 7E4F8D 3rd Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4EE1 4th ID --- 7E4F8F 4th ID
7E4EE3 4th Duration --- 7E4F91 4th Duration
7E4EE5 4th Ticks --- 7E4F93 4th Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The ID's were read as 1 Byte, Duration and Ticks in 2 bytes.

However, when dying under the effect of a pixie dust all 4 boosts vanish. That normally never happens in the game, which might make the Atlas glitch possible. Still no Idea how that works exactly yet... Sad

------------------------------------------------------
--- ID's ---
------------------------------------------------------

-120 Plague 40 Force Field
-112 Poison 48 Reflect
-1 No effect 56 Shield (Camellia)
0 Atlas 64 Regrowth
8 Horace - Aura 72 Speed
16 Barrier 80 Regenerate (Horace)
24 Defend + Pixie Dust
32 Energize 96 Confound

So the game doesn't differenciate between Horace's Regenerate and Pixie Dust. It's one and the same. Negative numbers for "debuffs" and also for "No Effect".

Thats it for so far. : )

As thought the game can only handle 4 effects on one characther at once. If a fifth status/boost is added the first one gets overridden. The Duration and Ticks always vary. (For Spells that boost something the Ticks become the boosted value!)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---              Boy                ---               Dog                 ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4ECF    1st ID              ---     7E4F7D    1st ID
7E4ED1    1st Duration    ---     7E4F7F    1st Duration
7E4ED3    1st Ticks          ---     7E4F81    1st Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4ED5    2nd ID             ---     7E4F83    2nd ID
7E4ED7    2nd Duration   ---     7E4F85    2nd Duration
7E4ED9    2nd Ticks         ---     7E4F87    2nd Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4EDB    3rd ID              ---     7E4F89    3rd ID
7E4EDD    3rd Duration    ---     7E4F8B    3rd Duration
7E4EDF    3rd Ticks          ---     7E4F8D    3rd Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------
7E4EE1    4th ID             ---     7E4F8F    4th ID
7E4EE3    4th Duration   ---     7E4F91    4th Duration
7E4EE5    4th Ticks         ---     7E4F93    4th Ticks
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The ID's were read as 1 Byte, Duration and Ticks in 2 bytes.

However, when dying under the effect of a pixie dust all 4 boosts vanish. That normally never happens in the game, which might make the Atlas glitch possible. Still no Idea how that works exactly yet... :(

------------------------------------------------------
	---                     ID's                                 ---
	------------------------------------------------------

-120    Plague                  40      Force Field
  	-112    Poison                  48      Reflect	
  	    -1    No effect               56      Shield (Camellia)
  	     0    Atlas                     64      Regrowth
   	     8    Horace - Aura       72      Speed
  	   16    Barrier                  80      Regenerate (Horace)
  	   24    Defend                           + Pixie Dust
  	   32    Energize               96      Confound

So the game doesn't differenciate between Horace's Regenerate and Pixie Dust. It's one and the same. Negative numbers for "debuffs" and also for "No Effect".

Thats it for so far. : )

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-06 06:28:11 pm

Speed > Safety

i will definitely be playing around with this once I'm back in act 2.

Noting that poison is a -112 and plague is a -120, would that means that (presumably) when "dieing" to get atlas underflow it would potentially be better to use plague as it would have a higher chance of underflowing to a lower value than poison? I seem to recall someone mentioning that only poison could trigger it, if this is actually the case, why? For that matter, do we actually NEED to cast atlas after getting poisoned or just after using pixie dust? Also, if someone responds to this with "it works like this... (how to do the trick)!" That isn't what I'm asking, I'm asking specifically why we have been NEEDING to get poisoned before doing this. I can save quite a bit of time if this isn't the case in the TAS and possibly work in a better/optimal situation to do invincibility glitch/atlas underflow in real-time.

The fact that Horace's Regenerate spell functions as Pixie Dust does is really interesting, I wonder if we could abuse that to re-underflow later in the game somehow. Not particularly for attack/defense either. I'd like to see if we could somehow manage to double-underflow speed two times in a row to try and roll a solid amount that doesn't screw us over... Wishful thinking, but given how broken this game has become, it wouldn't surprise me.

Also, thanks again for the RAM addresses AsFar, much appreciated.

i will definitely be playing around with this once I'm back in act 2.

Noting that poison is a -112 and plague is a -120, would that means that (presumably) when "dieing" to get atlas underflow it would potentially be better to use plague as it would have a higher chance of underflowing to a lower value than poison? I seem to recall someone mentioning that only poison could trigger it, if this is actually the case, why? For that matter, do we actually NEED to cast atlas after getting poisoned or just after using pixie dust? Also, if someone responds to this with "it works like this... (how to do the trick)!" That isn't what I'm asking, I'm asking specifically why we have been NEEDING to get poisoned before doing this. I can save quite a bit of time if this isn't the case in the TAS and possibly work in a better/optimal situation to do invincibility glitch/atlas underflow in real-time.

The fact that Horace's Regenerate spell functions as Pixie Dust does is really interesting, I wonder if we could abuse that to re-underflow later in the game somehow. Not particularly for attack/defense either. I'd like to see if we could somehow manage to double-underflow speed two times in a row to try and roll a solid amount that doesn't screw us over... Wishful thinking, but given how broken this game has become, it wouldn't surprise me.

Also, thanks again for the RAM addresses AsFar, much appreciated.

AsFarAsIGet

2013-10-06 06:35:48 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Im not sure, Poison Ticks go up to 480, which triggers the poison damage. Whilest the Atlas Tick contains the amount of strength gained by the spell. It might be possible that those mix up somehow when dying under pixie dust effect.

Another Theory would be the negative ID numbers. If it works with Plague then those could be a reason.
If not then it's a matter of the tick thing. Plague constantly contains the number 5 at the tick value adress for whatever reason.

I'll test if the underflow is possible with plague aswell soon.

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-06 07:05:28 pm

Speed > Safety

Ah, if plague's tick value isn't increasing, that may be why it doesn't underflow, would make sense considering the method utilized to underflow. Would also explain why it would work for invincibility and not for underflow since that's just status effect amount related i imagine.

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2013-10-06 07:54:55 pm

AsFarAsIGet: 2013-10-06 07:48:03 pm

2013-10-06 07:44:43 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Ok i think i figured it out, its a matter of ticks! The closer you are to 480 with the poison tick the better your underflow is. (Got 65,113 with near perfect tickamount) At lvl 10 with Spider's Claw u need a minimum of 60 Ticks and even then the underflow is in a critical state for the rest of the run.

So for the perfect underflow is the following: You want to die right before the damage is incoming! When the damage appears and you die it underflows you to something like 11 strength and its GG, Runs over!

If you do the underflow the first values of the poison will get stuck as you die. Something is doing weird things with it generating the underflow. Cheesy

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-10-06 07:55:26 pm

2013-10-06 07:54:46 pm

Speed > Safety

Alright, so looks like TAS is gonna get killed on the tick just before 480 somehow. Smiley

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2013-10-06 08:15:07 pm

2013-10-06 08:14:32 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Hehe nice, and no one will notice it! Smiley

I tried to get the underflow with regrowth on a lower level since it ticks down from 60, which should be enough to barely get an underflow. But I couldn't manage to die on that said frame. Sad

I think the atlas spell has a max strength boost range. The poison tick can move way higher up than this value (both of them are contained in the ticker adresses, still separated but pixie dust death somehow unites them), so that the amount that is too much gets subtracted creating the underflow.

Thats just pure speculation but it sounds realistic.

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-06 08:41:50 pm

Speed > Safety

Yeah, the method I seem to remember someone mentioning before basically said that when pixie dust is used up, all values are cleared but poison's value is taken away from the other values when it's removed. Something along the lines of just really bad programming in how the debuffs/buffs work on death. Or I could just be mish-mashing theories together, I really don't remember. Sad

Anywho, I'm at Thraxx right now basically in the TAS... When I get to Act 2 I'll test this whole thing out pretty thoroughly.

AsFarAsIGet

2013-10-06 08:45:39 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Yeah really weird mechanics. o.O
Im curious what your results are when that a2 time comes. Smiley

Nitrodon

Edit history:

Nitrodon: 2013-10-06 09:10:56 pm

Nitrodon: 2013-10-06 09:10:41 pm

2013-10-06 09:07:52 pm

You forgot some status IDs.

88: Stop
104: Disrupt
112: Slow Burn
120: Corrosion
-128 (since you seem to be treating it as signed): Hypnotize

Then again, if you're just looking at the boy and dog, they probably can't even get those statuses, so never mind.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-10-06 09:18:46 pm

2013-10-06 09:17:52 pm

Speed > Safety

I Think you can get corroded/slow burned actually, I don't think disrupt or stop is possible, and hypnotize definitely isn't.

aqua does corrosion (perhaps no dot is applied? I wouldn't know) and the sons of whatever in pyramids can cast slow burn (I think...)

MetaSigma

2013-10-07 04:32:24 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Nah if you get hit with corrosion by Aqua it stays with you overtime, also yes the Sons of (Yeah I can't think of their name either) They do cast Slow Burn

assassin17

2013-10-07 08:09:48 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

i think because Plague never wears off on its own, it puts the Ticks since last Damage Interval where the Duration normally goes. not sure what the 5 is in the Ticks slot.

Quote from TheAngryPanda:

Yeah, the method I seem to remember someone mentioning before basically said that when pixie dust is used up, all values are cleared but poison's value is taken away from the other values when it's removed. Something along the lines of just really bad programming in how the debuffs/buffs work on death. Or I could just be mish-mashing theories together, I really don't remember.

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/secret_of_evermore_snes5_394.html

what i've learned since then is that it's not just Pixie Dust boy death, but also any dog death (thanks Ninakoru).

----

Quote from AsFarAsIGet:

If a fifth status/boost is added the first one gets overridden.

well, it properly does this on SoE Europe. on SoE USA, it botches it; rather than the "remove status" code being called for the status that's being replaced, it calls the removal code for the status being added (before calling the addition code). so the boost of the old status (and flags it sets, like Barrier's invincibility) is kept.

in all of this, the boost amount of the old status (let's call it X) is used when calling the removal routine of the new status. the result is that if the new status has a boost, it'll wind up being X lower than it should be.

also, thanks for the Status IDs. i had only jotted down 3 or 4.

i think because Plague never wears off on its own, it puts the Ticks since last Damage Interval where the Duration normally goes.  not sure what the 5 is in the Ticks slot.

[quote="TheAngryPanda"]Yeah, the method I seem to remember someone mentioning before basically said that when pixie dust is used up, all values are cleared but poison's value is taken away from the other values when it's removed. Something along the lines of just really bad programming in how the debuffs/buffs work on death. Or I could just be mish-mashing theories together, I really don't remember.[/quote]

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/secret_of_evermore_snes5_394.html

what i've learned since then is that it's not just Pixie Dust boy death, but also any dog death (thanks Ninakoru).

----

[quote="AsFarAsIGet"]If a fifth status/boost is added the first one gets overridden.[/quote]

well, it properly does this on SoE Europe.  on SoE USA, it botches it; rather than the "remove status" code being called for the status that's being replaced, it calls the removal code for the status being added (before calling the addition code).  so the boost of the old status (and flags it sets, like Barrier's invincibility) is kept.

in all of this, the boost amount of the old status (let's call it X) [i]is[/i] used when calling the removal routine of the new status.  the result is that if the new status has a boost, it'll wind up being X lower than it should be.

also, thanks for the Status IDs.  i had only jotted down 3 or 4.

AsFarAsIGet

2013-10-07 10:00:59 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Oh thanks for the addition nitrodon. Hmm is treating them as signed not so good? I somehow prefer watching adresses as signed, dunno why.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-10-10 10:34:48 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-10-10 10:34:31 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-10-10 03:00:06 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-10-10 02:59:46 am

2013-10-10 12:14:33 am

Speed > Safety

I just Any%'d the 100% route, sorry in advance. I'll post the new route up once I'm done with it. Viper Commander will be your new favorite "boss."

I'm also working on a SoE FAQ for people to put on their stream descriptions which should reduce the amount of repeated questions we get about the more commonly used things in the runs.

Also, does anyone know of a template for a program to receive global input and progress a "step" of say... a huge ass route? That would be incredibly useful for people learning 100% since they could use it in conjunction with their split timer, or even separate of it. I'd also like to have something like that for other games I run as well, so any help in that area would be amazing. I've been doing the goold old Joy2Key binding the analog stick on my PS3 controller to "enter" so i can advance the boxes in excel... there's gotta be an easier way; lol.

----------------------------------------

New Route:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkkzhp4xepcov4c/Secret-of-Evermore-100%25-route.pdf

It's kind of chopped into sections to make it more readable. Best bet as always is to just download the .xlsx instead.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tngl51cd0rolxf/Secret-of-Evermore.xlsx

Yes, Sting is used. Yes, it is better. No, buying twice doesn't cost any actual time. Yes, this is more difficult than the previous 100% route. No, I don't really expect anyone to use Horace Skip or other nonsense mentioned in the guide.

I think that about covers most things...

Now for something you guys can help me with!

I need to know if 8x Hardball 1x Flare kills Viper Commander in the Mammoth Graveyard part of this new route. It's possibly a very useful change if it works since you'll have 3-5 extra Hardball to remove from or use in the new route. Either way it would save time. The route is more or less locked into 14 HB, there are issues with 12 HB and 16 HB, so yeah... I guess that's actually good news compared to normal.

So there ya go, go get a new WR and don't forget to menu cancel Sting casts against bosses.

----------------------------------------

Stream discussing route in "detail." If you're learning this route, watch the highlight before doing attempts.
http://www.twitch.tv/theangrypanda1/c/3062326

I just Any%'d the 100% route, sorry in advance. I'll post the new route up once I'm done with it. Viper Commander will be your new favorite "boss."

I'm also working on a SoE FAQ for people to put on their stream descriptions which should reduce the amount of repeated questions we get about the more commonly used things in the runs.

Also, does anyone know of a template for a program to receive global input and progress a "step" of say... a huge ass route? That would be incredibly useful for people learning 100% since they could use it in conjunction with their split timer, or even separate of it. I'd also like to have something like that for other games I run as well, so any help in that area would be amazing. I've been doing the goold old Joy2Key binding the analog stick on my PS3 controller to "enter" so i can advance the boxes in excel... there's gotta be an easier way; lol.

----------------------------------------

New Route:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hkkzhp4xepcov4c/Secret-of-Evermore-100%25-route.pdf

It's kind of chopped into sections to make it more readable. Best bet as always is to just download the .xlsx instead. 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tngl51cd0rolxf/Secret-of-Evermore.xlsx

Yes, Sting is used. Yes, it is better. No, buying twice doesn't cost any actual time. Yes, this is more difficult than the previous 100% route. No, I don't really expect anyone to use Horace Skip or other nonsense mentioned in the guide.

I think that about covers most things...

Now for something you guys can help me with!

I need to know if 8x Hardball 1x Flare kills Viper Commander in the Mammoth Graveyard part of this new route. It's possibly a very useful change if it works since you'll have 3-5 extra Hardball to remove from or use in the new route. Either way it would save time. The route is more or less locked into 14 HB, there are issues with 12 HB and 16 HB, so yeah... I guess that's actually good news compared to normal.

So there ya go, go get a new WR and don't forget to menu cancel Sting casts against bosses.

----------------------------------------

Stream discussing route in "detail." If you're learning this route, watch the highlight before doing attempts.
http://www.twitch.tv/theangrypanda1/c/3062326

Vultuz

Edit history:

Vultuz: 2013-10-15 03:04:55 am

2013-10-15 03:04:35 am

New (Ok its a few days ago already) Any% PB 1:22:17
http://www.twitch.tv/vultuz/c/3061636
Big improvement possible

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-15 08:02:49 am

Speed > Safety

nice Vult, almost to the sub 20 point. Smiley

LovableLambchop

2013-10-18 10:58:11 am

This weekend I'm going to looking to improve my Any% time to sub 1:24 which should be an easy goal considering how many stupid mistakes my last PB had and by November 2 I hopefully will have both AB and 100% completely learned for my 25 hour marathon!

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-18 03:20:48 pm

Speed > Safety

Here ya go guys, after weeks and weeks of work, I give you Act 1 being completely destroyed:

It's TAS, before anyone who doesn't know says anything.

Some notes:

I searched endlessly to find a way to incorporate the dog as the menu clip through 1st rock in volcano's main area but i couldn't figure it out. Doing so could potentially save seconds and it's very possible I may have skipped over something in the process of testing the some thousands of possibilities.

A note regarding Magmar.... and why I haven't completely moved on to act 2 yet...

The total damage at the end of the fight is around 1050+ if my memory serves from when i math'd it up last night. So naturally, we'd assume "Hey, why don't we drop a few casts to even it out or not attack at the beginning?" Well, in doing both of those options and trying quite a large amount of manipulations (about 7-8 hours worth at this point since I'm still trying...) I've only been able to come up with 990 max damage, AND it was 22 frames slower. This leads me to believe that in RTA it might actually be quite beneficial to attack Magmar as he rises from the lava from either of the two middle positions with the dog AFTER THE FIRST 8x HARDBALL CAST. This gives you ~15-26 extra damage (it's probably lower/higher on each end, this is just what I saw) which ends up accounting for an extra hardball cast when it's all said and done. So this leads to more consistency if the opportunity presents itself. Players should keep this in the back of their minds when running any% especially, 100% isn't as close, but should be considered as well.

I also can say that unless there is some magical pixel somewhere, you cannot camera clip through the 1st rock with the dog while having the boy at the entrance. You CAN do it with the boy under extremely specific circumstances, but it's actually slower for the TAS to do that so I don't do it there.

Here ya go guys, after weeks and weeks of work, I give you Act 1 being completely destroyed: http://youtu.be/oEerU-Imt7M

It's TAS, before anyone who doesn't know says anything.

Some notes:

I searched endlessly to find a way to incorporate the dog as the menu clip through 1st rock in volcano's main area but i couldn't figure it out. Doing so could potentially save seconds and it's very possible I may have skipped over something in the process of testing the some thousands of possibilities.

A note regarding Magmar.... and why I haven't completely moved on to act 2 yet...

The total damage at the end of the fight is around 1050+ if my memory serves from when i math'd it up last night. So naturally, we'd assume "Hey, why don't we drop a few casts to even it out or not attack at the beginning?" Well, in doing both of those options and trying quite a large amount of manipulations (about 7-8 hours worth at this point since I'm still trying...) I've only been able to come up with 990 max damage, AND it was 22 frames slower. This leads me to believe that in RTA it might actually be quite beneficial to attack Magmar as he rises from the lava from either of the two middle positions with the dog AFTER THE FIRST 8x HARDBALL CAST. This gives you ~15-26 extra damage (it's probably lower/higher on each end, this is just what I saw) which ends up accounting for an extra hardball cast when it's all said and done. So this leads to more consistency if the opportunity presents itself. Players should keep this in the back of their minds when running any% especially, 100% isn't as close, but should be considered as well.

I also can say that unless there is some magical pixel somewhere, you cannot camera clip through the 1st rock with the dog while having the boy at the entrance. You CAN do it with the boy under extremely specific circumstances, but it's actually slower for the TAS to do that so I don't do it there.

uulfaz

2013-10-20 09:47:54 am

I talked about this briefly with some nice people in chat, but I would like to have a second source verify this: The PAL version of Secret of Evermore on SNES is patched such that not all tricks used in a standard run are possible!? Thus, if one wants to run the game, one should get a NTSC version of the game!?

Thanks in advance for answers Smiley

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-20 10:06:19 am

Speed > Safety

PAL does indeed have a patched version that removes almost all the super useful things. So yes, you would want an NTSC version for sure.

uulfaz

2013-10-20 10:26:18 am

Okay, thanks for the answer. So maybe at some point I will get a NTSC-PAL adapter and a US copy of the game. Will see...

CrAwEk

2013-10-20 10:31:36 am

hey guys! New WR Secret of Evermore any% 1:18:31
Execution is very strong, there is very little error I think
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/3113989

TheAngryPanda

2013-10-20 04:50:05 pm

Speed > Safety

I would really like to see a run without Defend and utilizing newer routes which include the BBMSkip. Aside from that, it's a pretty solid run. Smiley

CrAwEk

2013-10-21 12:11:24 am

I practice a little without defend and aura.
It there's areas where you can lose a [LOT] of time. especially in act 3(chess, stairs, bad boy fight, tower, mungola fight, gauge search)
We can not use wings on bad boy fight and tower.
There is not enough wings to cover another area because we need:
2 wings for act2
2 wings for chess
1 wing for stairs
1 wing for mungola fight
4 wing for gauge search
1 wing for final fight
total: 11 wings and we can have 6 wings max.
I can assure you the time is gained by not taking def you lose very quickly on act3 Smiley

In my opinion, we can not do better time without def and aura!
Sorry for my english guys.