Secret of Evermore (SNES)

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-05 12:59:17 pm

2013-02-05 02:45:36 am

Speed > Safety

Just thought I'd leave this here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tngl51cd0rolxf/Secret-of-Evermore.xlsx

That's a link to my dropbox, it contains the speedrun guide I'm working on for this game, it's in a VERY rough outlined state right now. It's completed up to Thraxx with as much detail as I think is appropriate for each area, fully marked maps with path outlines where needed and circles where ingredients/containers are for each area, as well as boss strategy and misc comments with suggestions or optional details.

And yes, you did see correctly, it is in fact an excel document, I find it much easier to organize and plan that way. I'm hoping to generate interest in this game and others by creating an in-depth guide such as this as that will allow even beginners to pick the game up and have an immediate reference to go off of during practice with detailed information as to why things are how they are so maybe those beginners can eventually discover something new and teach us old farts a new trick or two.

Hope it helps, keep up the good pace on the run meta.

Just thought I'd leave this here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tngl51cd0rolxf/Secret-of-Evermore.xlsx

That's a link to my dropbox, it contains the speedrun guide I'm working on for this game, it's in a VERY rough outlined state right now. It's completed up to Thraxx with as much detail as I think is appropriate for each area, fully marked maps with path outlines where needed and circles where ingredients/containers are for each area, as well as boss strategy and misc comments with suggestions or optional details.

And yes, you did see correctly, it is in fact an excel document, I find it much easier to organize and plan that way. I'm hoping to generate interest in this game and others by creating an in-depth guide such as this as that will allow even beginners to pick the game up and have an immediate reference to go off of during practice with detailed information as to why things are how they are so maybe those beginners can eventually discover something new and teach us old farts a new trick or two.

Hope it helps, keep up the good pace on the run meta.

Saturn

2013-02-05 04:22:18 am

It's cool to see so much activity on this game. And it's even cooler to see that new tricks have been discovered after nearly 20 years of the games existence. I never thought you could get the same effect of the traditional Atlas glitch with such an easy and quick setup. It's also good to know that the Magic Gourd doesn't affect the 99 call bead trick workability after all.

Regarding the run, I have partly followed the progress, and it's amazing how much it improved over such a short time span, both skill and strategy wise. You do a great job so far, Meta.

The good news is that the any% run can still be improved by a considerable amount of time solely through optimized strategies, since I managed to get a 1:54 recently with the traditional Atlas glitch method, and I'm not even a hardcore speedrunner. For those interested to see my approach of it, the run is available here:

Good luck on further progress, will be interesting to see how far the time can be pushed down in a console run.

It's cool to see so much activity on this game. And it's even cooler to see that new tricks have been discovered after nearly 20 years of the games existence. I never thought you could get the same effect of the traditional Atlas glitch with such an easy and quick setup. It's also good to know that the Magic Gourd doesn't affect the 99 call bead trick workability after all.

Regarding the run, I have partly followed the progress, and it's amazing how much it improved over such a short time span, both skill and strategy wise. You do a great job so far, Meta.

The good news is that the any% run can still be improved by a considerable amount of time solely through optimized strategies, since I managed to get a 1:54 recently with the traditional Atlas glitch method, and I'm not even a hardcore speedrunner. For those interested to see my approach of it, the run is available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_uORfIaH-A

Good luck on further progress, will be interesting to see how far the time can be pushed down in a console run.

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2013-02-05 05:07:44 am

2013-02-05 05:06:50 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Wait a minute...explain a couple of things...how do you get 3 crystals from BOTH side during the raptor fight? I noticed that in your 100% TAS you sometimes get some INSANE pick-ups. Are those MANIPULABLE?! In Console version the left side only gives 1 and the right 3 (Or the other way around) So how did you snag 6!?

The other thing is that 2 piece clay drop was something that was debated being picked up so If it's the same on my version (Which again goes back to my previous statement) then it'd be a better snag than something else I was doing :9

Saturn

2013-02-05 05:57:02 am

Yes, they can be manipulated in some way by the order they are picked up. The trick is, the amount of pickups you get depends on the previous one as long as they are done without leaving and reentering a room. For example in the 4 raptor room, in order to get the first Crystal pickup to be a 3x, you have to take the water in the upper right corner which has the required 3x trigger for the next pickup regardless of what it will be. The same is with the Crystal to the left at the beginning of Bugmuck. That's also the reason why it had to be delayed after getting the Hard Ball formula, since otherwise the 3x trigger of it required for the next Crystal gets cancelled due to the room reentrance.

The 2x Clay pickup in the very first room doesn't make a difference, since all pickup triggers get cancelled after entering a new room anyway. There should also be no difference at this between the console and emulator version of the game, AFAIK.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-05 09:56:10 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-05 09:53:50 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-05 09:00:51 am

2013-02-05 08:45:16 am

Speed > Safety

Confirming that saturn is correct that it will work on any version of the game, just tested PAL, emu US, US versions. Time for some re-routing/refining again meta, LOL.

Saturn, i noticed in your run that you use death/reload from save for atlas glitching, do you know if using the pixie dust method affects anything later in the run and if so what? That way we can start routing towards/from it.

I've also noticed that saturn has negated the need for grinding out flamingos (skelesnails in eastern forest) but takes longer on both Thraxx and Snake at Blimp. I'm curious as to how close those timings are and it's probably something we need to look at pretty closely before moving into refining act 2 any further.

*as for my guide, LOL, I knew this would happen and that's why I've stopped at Thraxx. It should be up to date tonight after some testing.

EDIT:

Confirmed Triggers will be on my guide under references (Saturn will have credit of course <3)
Going to be a list of things to pick and the order in which to do so

EDIT 2:

Guide has been updated with a rough layout of the route reference I'm doing in regards to Saturn's run, if you have the time, please check it out and let me know if you think it will be helpful, thank you.
The link is at the top of this page.

Confirming that saturn is correct that it will work on any version of the game, just tested PAL, emu US, US versions. Time for some re-routing/refining again meta, LOL.

Saturn, i noticed in your run that you use death/reload from save for atlas glitching, do you know if using the pixie dust method affects anything later in the run and if so what? That way we can start routing towards/from it.

I've also noticed that saturn has negated the need for grinding out flamingos (skelesnails in eastern forest) but takes longer on both Thraxx and Snake at Blimp. I'm curious as to how close those timings are and it's probably something we need to look at pretty closely before moving into refining act 2 any further.

*as for my guide, LOL, I knew this would happen and that's why I've stopped at Thraxx. It should be up to date tonight after some testing.

EDIT:

Confirmed Triggers will be on my guide under references (Saturn will have credit of course <3) 
Going to be a list of things to pick and the order in which to do so

EDIT 2:

Guide has been updated with a rough layout of the route reference I'm doing in regards to Saturn's run, if you have the time, please check it out and let me know if you think it will be helpful, thank you.
The link is at the top of this page.

drakonsan

2013-02-05 08:59:03 am

Next up, sub 1:50

Saturn

2013-02-05 12:50:39 pm

Panda:
Using the PixieDust method shouldn't make a difference compared to the save/reload method and is obviously the superior option because it allows to spend the 15 minute waiting time for other things than just for cash making and leveling up of Atlas, as well as saving time from the reset skip. I used it because my goal was to make a comparison specially to that traditional method in first place, as well as seeing if it was possible to execute it in time.

I can't open that format of your guide to have a look on this computer, but I know that the approach used in the 1:54 run for world 1 is at least 2 minutes faster compared to a Thraxx quick kill + Skelesnail grinding in the end (confirmed through various tests on that matter).

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-05 01:06:15 pm

2013-02-05 12:57:17 pm

Speed > Safety

Alright, thanks Saturn, I dunno why you can't open the document, it's just an excel file (2007). I've been re-running your route and adding it to my guide as a very good comparison of those items you've picked up along the normal pathways and what we grind out money for. I think a combination of the 2 methods is going to yield the optimal time, however you've optimized those ingredients pretty well on that run from what i'm seeing; great work there for sure.

Good to know we don't need that nobilia market grind and can just utilize our time elsewhere for crush leveling perhaps, that makes things soooooo much better/easier. Also, good to hear that method is faster than the grinding because anytime spent grinding is typically a bad thing.

EDIT 1:

Does anyone else have issues opening the guide? I can open it on any of my home computers and laptop so I just assumed it was good to go since they're all varying OS/versions of office/document viewers.

rayvex

2013-02-05 01:14:13 pm

hi

Wow, just downloaded your guide Panda and im blown away.
That must be a hell of a lot work making the guide to this level of detail, total respect for doing this thumbsup

TheAngryPanda

2013-02-05 01:17:03 pm

Speed > Safety

Thank you, means a lot hearing that. It's taken ~6 hours to compile thus far.

TheAngryPanda

2013-02-05 07:03:58 pm

Speed > Safety

Sorry for double post here, but it's a bit of a REAL update:

Act 1 is now completely rerouted thanks to Saturn's amazing optimization skills there, seriously it's ridiculously good.
Act 2 will be utilizing the Pixie Dust and obtaining crush 2 while acquiring speed (the time saved by skipped speed is only saved if you don't get hit very much, it actually ended up costing time in Saturn's run)
Act 3 is basically just better execution and normal route.
Act 4 we've removed the bomb batting for final fight which easily saves a minute or so, barrier still seems to be the logical solution at this point but it's not 100% for sure, aura vs barrier still needs more testing

If i've missed anything, meta can probably clear it up, going to go back to working on/updating my guide for the new people to use. Smiley

Rakuen

2013-02-05 07:37:44 pm

Weegee Time

As strategies get solidified, please do update the SDA Knowledgebase. It'd be greatly appreciated to have thorough strats for games on there. Smiley

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-07 06:03:46 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-07 06:03:25 am

2013-02-06 11:24:57 pm

Speed > Safety

Ok, so... I'm just gonna post this cuz I want more people thinking about it; Improvements over Meta/Saturn runs:

Open this if you can't mentally follow the route: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bwryo3kpddohau2/Secret-of-Evermore.pdf

Act 1 Improvements:

Skip ash at fire pits because we don't need to atlas glitch via death abuse and can overflow much easier with pixie dust atlas.
Improved management of boy and dog switching to minimize downtime in most areas (this is an area that can be improved upon)
Slightly better optimization of Salabog fight, we gain a call bead from doing this ~~however it increases our chances of being lowballed (low damage hardballs) by a fair amount~~
Adjusted certain parts of Big Bug 1 to save around 1 second

Act 2 Improvements:
Pixie Dust atlas incorporation into Saturn's run essentially covers most things here and is a major improvement
Market Management let's us get 4 anni amulets and a jade disc (+3 hit, very useful) with just 40 rice (129 jewels)
Ruins and Pyramid have multiple 2-4 second improvements we need to test but are almost certain they'll work

Act 3 Improvements:
Due to getting the 4 anni amulets, we no longer need to play around in the pink trees for any reason and can go straight to side show
Skips in tunnels that were obvious and we should've been doing anyways but were forgotten about
General character management and execution improvements
Probably some optimization with crush getting it down to a science and minimizing menu times in the process

Act 4 Improvements:
Meta's 1:57 run shows a pretty damn good example of what is done here, all that we need to do is improve execution and optimize character management in 1 or 2 areas (testing involved)
Bombless is awesome and we're all silly for not just trying it and assuming it wouldn't work; lol (credits to saturn and the wonderful world of common sense)
We use barrier, Saturn uses Aura; I personally feel that barrier is better simply because it's easier to manage and more reliable on top of making the "finish-up" sections much quicker than Aura. This being said... there is solid reason to use Aura and we'll only know which is actually better after multiple tests with each. Barrier is safer, Aura is probably faster on paper in a perfect world, to generalize the situation.

Overall I think this game is going to see sub 1:50 quite literally as soon as Meta pulls a good Act 1 out of his pocket (still getting used to route changes I think). Once this happens hopefully we (as in the community of people involved with this game) can refine the other Acts even further and discover a few more things to push this game even further down in time. Honestly I think a logical goal after all that has been accomplished is probably around 1:46 with the current knowledge, that is 11 minutes faster than the current no death WR. That's pretty damn impressive.

edit1: fixed, thanks meta.

Ok, so... I'm just gonna post this cuz I want more people thinking about it; Improvements over Meta/Saturn runs:

Open this if you can't mentally follow the route: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bwryo3kpddohau2/Secret-of-Evermore.pdf

Act 1 Improvements:

Skip ash at fire pits because we don't need to atlas glitch via death abuse and can overflow much easier with pixie dust atlas.
Improved management of boy and dog switching to minimize downtime in most areas (this is an area that can be improved upon)
Slightly better optimization of Salabog fight, we gain a call bead from doing this [s]however it increases our chances of being lowballed (low damage hardballs) by a fair amount[/s]
Adjusted certain parts of Big Bug 1 to save around 1 second

Act 2 Improvements:
Pixie Dust atlas incorporation into Saturn's run essentially covers most things here and is a major improvement
Market Management let's us get 4 anni amulets and a jade disc (+3 hit, very useful) with just 40 rice (129 jewels)
Ruins and Pyramid have multiple 2-4 second improvements we need to test but are almost certain they'll work

Act 3 Improvements:
Due to getting the 4 anni amulets, we no longer need to play around in the pink trees for any reason and can go straight to side show
Skips in tunnels that were obvious and we should've been doing anyways but were forgotten about
General character management and execution improvements
Probably some optimization with crush getting it down to a science and minimizing menu times in the process

Act 4 Improvements:
Meta's 1:57 run shows a pretty damn good example of what is done here, all that we need to do is improve execution and optimize character management in 1 or 2 areas (testing involved)
Bombless is awesome and we're all silly for not just trying it and assuming it wouldn't work; lol (credits to saturn and the wonderful world of common sense)
We use barrier, Saturn uses Aura; I personally feel that barrier is better simply because it's easier to manage and more reliable on top of making the "finish-up" sections much quicker than Aura. This being said... there is solid reason to use Aura and we'll only know which is actually better after multiple tests with each. Barrier is safer, Aura is probably faster on paper in a perfect world, to generalize the situation.

Overall I think this game is going to see sub 1:50 quite literally as soon as Meta pulls a good Act 1 out of his pocket (still getting used to route changes I think). Once this happens hopefully we (as in the community of people involved with this game) can refine the other Acts even further and discover a few more things to push this game even further down in time. Honestly I think a logical goal after all that has been accomplished is probably around 1:46 with the current knowledge, that is 11 minutes faster than the current no death WR. That's pretty damn impressive.

edit1: fixed, thanks meta.

MetaSigma

2013-02-07 03:54:12 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

One small thing, you don't get lowballed by Salabog...that was never an issue. 8x 2times first round, 8x 2times second round with a 2CB Chaser, 8x 2times third round and he's dead. Even with lowball dmg you should still be able to make this happen as the last set of hard balls end up doing lvl 4 dmg and again even bad RNG allows for a fast death.

You can also do this a different way 8x 2 times, 8x 2times CB Chaser, 8x 2times CB Chaser. Should also die this way as lvl 4 HB would be used with the CB that time around.

MetaSigma

2013-02-07 08:22:08 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

OK It's time for the update I've been wanting to give >=D

1:53:17, and this run was bad, and I'm talking there is easily 2mins of improvements just off general execution/small luck. Sub 1:50 is def what I'm going to shoot for and it MIGHT be possible with these new changes and routings. I'm still refining what I saw from Saturn and much to my surprise there has been small changes to even what he did.

I'm excited though, and again Saturn THANK YOU for such a WONDERFUL video that showed me just how, where, and what I could improve upon so MUCH!!!

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-08 01:04:44 pm

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-08 08:17:21 am

2013-02-08 08:17:07 am

Speed > Safety

http://i.imgur.com/UhrZMH4.png

^Thanks Etap Smiley

http://www.twitch.tv/metasigma/b/365071100

^run starts around 1:06:00

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2013-02-10 05:30:07 pm

2013-02-10 02:20:12 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Ok...I can't wait to get a new time with THIS insane MAJOR GAME SEQUENCE BREAKER.

And I just completed a new run...and it's sick

1:48:19 and this can be improved by atleast 2 and a half MINUTES. We literally can skip the volcano, AND Salabog because we can glitch the dog through rocks. I call this IDCLIP DOG. It's not hard to do, but it is pretty precise and holy cow it drops Act 1 down to sub 18 possible. It's so crazy. Smiley

I'll have the video up soon as I can!!

Sonikkustar

2013-02-10 05:52:53 pm

The Great Farming Empire

It is official. MetaSigma is a cyborg that has the capability of destroying anything he touches.

I don't even know what to say anymore...I mean, you beat the current SDA run on the site by AN HOUR! I am seriously looking forward to the final run now. Smiley

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-10 11:18:30 pm

TheAngryPanda: 2013-02-10 09:04:28 pm

2013-02-10 06:06:28 pm

Speed > Safety

to recap the recent finds for people that missed it but are interested:

SolarCel007 says he accidentally got his dog stuck in a rock
Meta's all like "no way, not consistent"
Meta/AFAIG get trick working (it's really simple)
Skipping all but 1 rock is easy (1st rock in volcano)
I found a way to skip it and reworked ingredient purchasing/casting to get lvl 4 right before using 6 beads (or less) on magmar
Meta does practice run
reroute for a minor issue
Meta finishes a run sub 1:50

The run is now much less stressful for new players and veterans alike. My guide is completely out of date and so is every other VOD/run out there until we've fully explored the possibilities of this glitch in the later acts. It may be possible to escape dungeon/tunnels quicker now, or bypass rocks in act 2/3, possible even skip a few things in act 4 if it's deemed worth to check out.

If you've got any Q's about the run, I'll be more than happy to try and help you figure it out; just PM me on this site or twitch.

edit: My guide is now up to date. Fully integrated the new route with all changes to bosses, pickups, etc... uploading new PDF now. People can follow along with meta up to at least pyramids, probably more before the night is over though.

to recap the recent finds for people that missed it but are interested:

SolarCel007 says he accidentally got his dog stuck in a rock
Meta's all like "no way, not consistent" 
Meta/AFAIG get trick working (it's really simple)
Skipping all but 1 rock is easy (1st rock in volcano)
I found a way to skip it and reworked ingredient purchasing/casting to get lvl 4 right before using 6 beads (or less) on magmar
Meta does practice run
reroute for a minor issue
Meta finishes a run sub 1:50

The run is now much less stressful for new players and veterans alike. My guide is completely out of date and so is every other VOD/run out there until we've fully explored the possibilities of this glitch in the later acts. It may be possible to escape dungeon/tunnels quicker now, or bypass rocks in act 2/3, possible even skip a few things in act 4 if it's deemed worth to check out.

If you've got any Q's about the run, I'll be more than happy to try and help you figure it out; just PM me on this site or twitch.

edit: My guide is now up to date. Fully integrated the new route with all changes to bosses, pickups, etc... uploading new PDF now. People can follow along with meta up to at least pyramids, probably more before the night is over though.

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2013-02-10 10:17:12 pm

2013-02-10 09:03:12 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

MetaBorg? You will be assimilated?

Anyways expect a 1:46:xx or better in the next couple of days as I can easily save a lot more time. I got trolled in such a terrible way -_-...Plague is so stupidly broken at times. When I had tested Aura was SUPPOSED to remove Plague's effects, well guess what...it didn't...and I ended up having to spend a ton of time and resources just to keep myself alive long enough to FINALLY remove it but not before I lost over a min and a half.

MetaSigma

2013-02-11 11:11:20 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Well now...1:45:38

Got dropped by Sterling (TOTALLY my own fault)
Act 1 was pretty good, though I can save atleast another 50 secs to a min
Vigor was a slow fight and nearly died, very bad execution by me
Final Fight was slow because I was thinking to much instead of doing.
A bunch of other small mistakes that added time

Sub 1:44 is possible with this route but it's gonna be a VERY hard thing to pull off Smiley

also to put into perspective how much time I saved from my last run Plague caused an additional 3 and a half minutes of lost time due to me having to heal constantly and waste resources, as well as go to the inn, play very safe, and just overall bad execution as I freak out.

doicm

2013-02-11 02:22:43 pm

Quote from MetaSigma:

Just completed a run on console with about 2 and a half minutes of possible time to save due to bad execution/planning

Final time was 2:40:35 Single Segment =)

That was less than two months ago. I think you exceeded your own expectations by a little more than 2.5 minutes. Rooting for sub 1:44! Cheesy

MetaSigma

2013-02-11 03:54:14 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Actually sub 1:43 is the goal now Doicm...completely removing Graveyard will work. The issue NOW is that you do Thraxx the old way, but still take out his left claw...the bad news is sometimes the game decides you're not going to get the dmg you SHOULD and totally trolls you. Then you end up dying by #40. Regardless after that Vipers are just absolute jerks in the Volcano. Panda has insane execution here though and has given me a few ideas to remedy this so I'm gonna practice, but sub 1:43 is now the goal. It's doable and I will get it...soon...

drakonsan

2013-02-11 07:05:46 pm

Revising my prediction of sub 1:45. Now Sigma will have 1:40 by the end of the week

MetaSigma

2013-02-11 10:47:35 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Well while 1:40 would be amazing 1:44:26 is a start...

New starts on Act 1 are amazing when they are executed properly and the RNG cooperates...

16:16 on Act 1 isn't bad, isn't great either. Sub 15 is possible easily if Thraxx cooperates as does all the rock skips AND Magmar as well. Really it's just one giant RNG fest in Act 1 that really will control a LOT of your time.

Lost so much time in Act 2. I seriously was playing like I didn't give a crap and saw a 1:37 lead dwindle to almost nothing...

Act 3 I made some time up considering I got grabbed on my last WR run on Sterling (Bone-head Mistake) so I came out almost a min ahead.

Act 4 I'm just going to rename #FINNIGANPLZ!!! Dog pretty much was an absolute troll and nothing went right, and I still came out ahead because of an AMAZING final battle.

All in all it's very improvable and the IDCLIP DOG is so sick to see, it's very fluid and when done right it's smooth. If another decent trick is discovered sub 1:40 IS possible, but as it is now I'd say around 1:41:xx is the BEST I could hope for MAYBE sub 1:41 BARELY if I got near perfect EVERYTHING.

Well while 1:40 would be amazing 1:44:26 is a start...

New starts on Act 1 are amazing when they are executed properly and the RNG cooperates...

16:16 on Act 1 isn't bad, isn't great either. Sub 15 is possible easily if Thraxx cooperates as does all the rock skips AND Magmar as well. Really it's just one giant RNG fest in Act 1 that really will control a LOT of your time.

Lost so much time in Act 2. I seriously was playing like I didn't give a crap and saw a 1:37 lead dwindle to almost nothing...

Act 3 I made some time up considering I got grabbed on my last WR run on Sterling (Bone-head Mistake) so I came out almost a min ahead.

Act 4 I'm just going to rename #FINNIGANPLZ!!! Dog pretty much was an absolute troll and nothing went right, and I still came out ahead because of an AMAZING final battle.

All in all it's very improvable and the IDCLIP DOG is so sick to see, it's very fluid and when done right it's smooth. If another decent trick is discovered sub 1:40 IS possible, but as it is now I'd say around 1:41:xx is the BEST I could hope for MAYBE sub 1:41 BARELY if I got near perfect EVERYTHING.