good job panda^^
thx you
thx you
Now that is sick legit
SDA Forum
You should post a time for the race with the timezone. (if you can, specify the EDT (US) and CET (Central Europe) time).
A hard major skip that happend after the 15 min timer, that... sick, I am glad I don't run that game, is like the alttp 100% route where you should reset after 45 min because of RNG.
Good luck to the runners.
EDIT : I still have a save of all panda's document, We should discuss if you want to keep the "soon becoming old any% route"
A hard major skip that happend after the 15 min timer, that... sick, I am glad I don't run that game, is like the alttp 100% route where you should reset after 45 min because of RNG.
Good luck to the runners.
EDIT : I still have a save of all panda's document, We should discuss if you want to keep the "soon becoming old any% route"
Speed > Safety
Here's a fun trick.
Jump/walk/leash/whatever the dog into an exit trigger.
Walk the boy to a map you want to load.
Enter the map with the boy and switch to the dog (frame perfect, as usual)
This loads the map you entered with the boy while having the dog walk (through most walls) in the direction he would had the dog's map been loaded.
Example: Screen before Aquagoth
Dog is at exit trigger to go out the right exit
Boy is at exit trigger to go to Aquagoth
(Trick is done)
Dog walks INTO the wall at aquagoth.
This example gets you stuck, softlocked, whatever... I haven't found a place to abuse this yet, but I also haven't tested very many things with it. A possible thing to come from this is using it to bypass cutscene triggers as you enter a room. Again, this is a theory, if people want to test various places though... well that would just be great.
Jump/walk/leash/whatever the dog into an exit trigger.
Walk the boy to a map you want to load.
Enter the map with the boy and switch to the dog (frame perfect, as usual)
This loads the map you entered with the boy while having the dog walk (through most walls) in the direction he would had the dog's map been loaded.
Example: Screen before Aquagoth
Dog is at exit trigger to go out the right exit
Boy is at exit trigger to go to Aquagoth
(Trick is done)
Dog walks INTO the wall at aquagoth.
This example gets you stuck, softlocked, whatever... I haven't found a place to abuse this yet, but I also haven't tested very many things with it. A possible thing to come from this is using it to bypass cutscene triggers as you enter a room. Again, this is a theory, if people want to test various places though... well that would just be great.
Speed > Safety
I found another glitch last night...
From my TASVideos post:
-Ingredient Flag Glitch
--Basically it's simply pressing B to activate the ingredient flag, select to switch to dog, (1 "Free" frame here to do whatever with), select to switch to boy, B to pick up ingredient again. This isn't that impressive until you factor in the ingredient manipulations to increase the amount you get. The 3 crystals in the revised route above stem from a 1 crystal pick up that makes the next item you pick up have +2 of whatever it is, resulting in 3 crystals with the ingredient duplication glitch. Doing this has removed the raptor attack area and 2 screen transitions from the route, which is OVER 200 frames!! On top of this, it's also removed another couple of things that will save even more. This is a massive find and will probably see more use as the TAS progresses. It will likely be used extensively in the upcoming AB100% TAS as well.
Possibilities in real-time? You could technically "dupe" any +1 increment pick up. You can also set a flag much faster without actually picking up the item. I haven't tested if you can set the flag again since the original item still wouldn't have been picked up. I don't think this is majorly game breaking for real-time, but it is something to keep in mind in case someone finds a way to utilize it better.
How can it be done in real-time?
Basically when you're going to pick an ingredient up, do Saturn Skip inputs to start and then the reverse afterwards. So something like B, select, "free" frame(s?), select, B. I'm not sure if the "free" frames between the original flag set matter or not, I think if it's just triggering the flag it will carry over across the map the same way any normal ingredient manipulation would. Basically this would save you time anywhere you don't actually NEED an ingredient picked up to manipulate another one. You just set the flag and go to the next one. If you can set it multiple times, you could potentially pick up a more optimal amount of ingredients, but at the same time, there's no point post-Act 1 since you can just buy everything to max later on in the run.
So that leaves Act 1 to deal with...
The TAS route is basically this:
-inn skip
-7 clay drop on eastern forest flower from ingredient glitch (not applicable to real-time)
-1 clay from the exit flower (i think this is faster than the one in big bug 2 lower)
-4 crystals from quicksand container
-1 clay from HB cave container
-2 crystals from container near HB cave
-1 crystal from inlet near big bug
This has been the fastest thing I can come up with.
That all being said, real-time runners don't have access to the 7 talon -> 7 clay glitch (normally) so maybe we can look for places to abuse this to pick up multiples of clay to save some time? This may end up actually allowing the Big Bug Maze Skip to be viable for more than just 10-12 HB routes.
Speaking of the BBMSkip, there will be pictures/tutorial of how to do it real time soon-ish, i just need to figure out a couple more things with it. So plan on "losing" 3 clay from your routes to save a pretty solid chunk of time (roughly the same amount of time it takes to get defend, ~15-20s).
From my TASVideos post:
-Ingredient Flag Glitch
--Basically it's simply pressing B to activate the ingredient flag, select to switch to dog, (1 "Free" frame here to do whatever with), select to switch to boy, B to pick up ingredient again. This isn't that impressive until you factor in the ingredient manipulations to increase the amount you get. The 3 crystals in the revised route above stem from a 1 crystal pick up that makes the next item you pick up have +2 of whatever it is, resulting in 3 crystals with the ingredient duplication glitch. Doing this has removed the raptor attack area and 2 screen transitions from the route, which is OVER 200 frames!! On top of this, it's also removed another couple of things that will save even more. This is a massive find and will probably see more use as the TAS progresses. It will likely be used extensively in the upcoming AB100% TAS as well.
Possibilities in real-time? You could technically "dupe" any +1 increment pick up. You can also set a flag much faster without actually picking up the item. I haven't tested if you can set the flag again since the original item still wouldn't have been picked up. I don't think this is majorly game breaking for real-time, but it is something to keep in mind in case someone finds a way to utilize it better.
How can it be done in real-time?
Basically when you're going to pick an ingredient up, do Saturn Skip inputs to start and then the reverse afterwards. So something like B, select, "free" frame(s?), select, B. I'm not sure if the "free" frames between the original flag set matter or not, I think if it's just triggering the flag it will carry over across the map the same way any normal ingredient manipulation would. Basically this would save you time anywhere you don't actually NEED an ingredient picked up to manipulate another one. You just set the flag and go to the next one. If you can set it multiple times, you could potentially pick up a more optimal amount of ingredients, but at the same time, there's no point post-Act 1 since you can just buy everything to max later on in the run.
So that leaves Act 1 to deal with...
The TAS route is basically this:
-inn skip
-7 clay drop on eastern forest flower from ingredient glitch (not applicable to real-time)
-1 clay from the exit flower (i think this is faster than the one in big bug 2 lower)
-4 crystals from quicksand container
-1 clay from HB cave container
-2 crystals from container near HB cave
-1 crystal from inlet near big bug
This has been the fastest thing I can come up with.
That all being said, real-time runners don't have access to the 7 talon -> 7 clay glitch (normally) so maybe we can look for places to abuse this to pick up multiples of clay to save some time? This may end up actually allowing the Big Bug Maze Skip to be viable for more than just 10-12 HB routes.
Speaking of the BBMSkip, there will be pictures/tutorial of how to do it real time soon-ish, i just need to figure out a couple more things with it. So plan on "losing" 3 clay from your routes to save a pretty solid chunk of time (roughly the same amount of time it takes to get defend, ~15-20s).
Speed > Safety
So, I've decided to work on figuring out how to do the BBMSkip (Big Bug Maze Skip) in real-time for you guys tonight:
http://imgur.com/HDmQtSX
Things that are obvious but I'll mention them anyways...
-Blue Boxes are your "setup -> Dog attack zone." This means that you will begin your setup AFTER passing the bottom of the box and jump attack BEFORE leaving the top of the box. There is plenty of room to adjust to various skill levels of play, personally I stop around 3/4 of the way through the box, double/triple (varies) up on the d-pad and then jump.
-Green Lines are the "safety" lines. They're there solely to indicate where the game says "okay, you can go further" for performing the skip properly. You shouldn't need them after getting the skip once or twice.
The Process (Including Setup):
-Pre-Skip Information and Notes:
--Run as fast as you can to the trigger spot, slower players may wish to petal the boy to keep him in place longer. Eventually you'll want to drop the petal though, it's not as big of a time saver if you use that method but it's great for practicing.
--There is a single maggot that can screw up everything if you roll a bad pattern (this could happen before as well) near the point where you go straight up to reach the skip area. Simply running diagonally as if you were going to despawn the maggot on the 1st clay location works best here. DO NOT DIAGONAL RUN WITH THE DOG UNLESS YOU HAVE TO!! It is 3 units of distance shorter than running straight up as the dog.
--Tar Snakes are trolls here, if they hit you then I guess you're just unlucky this round. I don't see this as an issue because the same can happen with other routes so it's not different. There's actually LESS Tar Snakes when doing this skip.
-The Setup:
--As said in the description of the blue boxes, you want to be inside of them before beginning the setup, this is important because if you're not, then a maggot will spawn in the way and you'll lose ~3 seconds or the run if that maggot decides to really hate you.
--Once inside the box, tap up until you're near the upper line of the box, or in the game, the dog's shadow will be just beneath the 2nd ridge from the top of that section (doesn't include the bridge ridges). These ridges are located inside the boxes. The 2nd part of the skip can technically be done ON or AFTER the ridge, but I don't advise it.
--When in a good position, attack with the dog and press select afterwards. Immediately after you let go of select hold R to prevent the dog from moving when you switch back. Now you have some options based on how quickly you got here and other factors:
Option A) The boy is pretty far back and the dog is off camera by a fair amount, this is the ideal situation. Simply switch back to the dog immediately after releasing R and hold UP+A in order to continue to the next part of the trick or end of the map.
Option B) The boy was with the dog. This is the tricky one but not too bad to deal with. Do the entire process and when you switch to the boy run down or left/right a distance (some bridges may collapse on you, it's a matter of testing and using what's comfortable for you) from the dog so he's at least off screen. Switch back and run up to progress.
Option C) Worst case scenario is that the boy AI skips over the first bridge while you're setting up. This will spawn the maggot and force you to AI skip the next bridge as well. If all goes right, this option is just as quick in real-time, but can be a run killer as well, so it's a gamble.
That's basically it, it's not a difficult trick, but you do need to be rather quick with the dog while getting there so the boy is farther away. Again, do NOT diagonal run unless you have to, this reduces the distance between you (the dog) and the boy (AI). Also, keep in mind this is considered a somewhat "advanced" trick in my opinion because it requires the player to adapt every time they do it instead of being non-variable, so you will have a variance in time savings of at least 1-2s on average once you're good at it.
Here are my statistics using this method:
Ideal Skips: 24
"Okay" Skips: 110
Bad things happened: 16
These are slightly skewed since I've been working on the TAS and have grown very familiar with the trigger locations, I don't expect anyone to have it down immediately, but you should be getting around a 70% success rate after a decent amount of attempts.
Hope this helped, good luck with it guys.
edit:
Forgot to mention that there is an issue with a maggot just after the 1st part of the skip. You just have to attack him to get him out of the way or run farther away with the boy to despawn him. This is something each player will have to find a comfort zone with, sometimes the maggot just doesn't even show up. I think it's based on proximity when doing the skip but I'm not entirely sure as to his mechanics just yet. I don't believe GreenAmbler figured out that maggot's spawning trigger either, so it's up in the air for testing if someone wants to make this a little easier on people.
http://imgur.com/HDmQtSX
Things that are obvious but I'll mention them anyways...
-Blue Boxes are your "setup -> Dog attack zone." This means that you will begin your setup AFTER passing the bottom of the box and jump attack BEFORE leaving the top of the box. There is plenty of room to adjust to various skill levels of play, personally I stop around 3/4 of the way through the box, double/triple (varies) up on the d-pad and then jump.
-Green Lines are the "safety" lines. They're there solely to indicate where the game says "okay, you can go further" for performing the skip properly. You shouldn't need them after getting the skip once or twice.
The Process (Including Setup):
-Pre-Skip Information and Notes:
--Run as fast as you can to the trigger spot, slower players may wish to petal the boy to keep him in place longer. Eventually you'll want to drop the petal though, it's not as big of a time saver if you use that method but it's great for practicing.
--There is a single maggot that can screw up everything if you roll a bad pattern (this could happen before as well) near the point where you go straight up to reach the skip area. Simply running diagonally as if you were going to despawn the maggot on the 1st clay location works best here. DO NOT DIAGONAL RUN WITH THE DOG UNLESS YOU HAVE TO!! It is 3 units of distance shorter than running straight up as the dog.
--Tar Snakes are trolls here, if they hit you then I guess you're just unlucky this round. I don't see this as an issue because the same can happen with other routes so it's not different. There's actually LESS Tar Snakes when doing this skip.
-The Setup:
--As said in the description of the blue boxes, you want to be inside of them before beginning the setup, this is important because if you're not, then a maggot will spawn in the way and you'll lose ~3 seconds or the run if that maggot decides to really hate you.
--Once inside the box, tap up until you're near the upper line of the box, or in the game, the dog's shadow will be just beneath the 2nd ridge from the top of that section (doesn't include the bridge ridges). These ridges are located inside the boxes. The 2nd part of the skip can technically be done ON or AFTER the ridge, but I don't advise it.
--When in a good position, attack with the dog and press select afterwards. Immediately after you let go of select hold R to prevent the dog from moving when you switch back. Now you have some options based on how quickly you got here and other factors:
Option A) The boy is pretty far back and the dog is off camera by a fair amount, this is the ideal situation. Simply switch back to the dog immediately after releasing R and hold UP+A in order to continue to the next part of the trick or end of the map.
Option B) The boy was with the dog. This is the tricky one but not too bad to deal with. Do the entire process and when you switch to the boy run down or left/right a distance (some bridges may collapse on you, it's a matter of testing and using what's comfortable for you) from the dog so he's at least off screen. Switch back and run up to progress.
Option C) Worst case scenario is that the boy AI skips over the first bridge while you're setting up. This will spawn the maggot and force you to AI skip the next bridge as well. If all goes right, this option is just as quick in real-time, but can be a run killer as well, so it's a gamble.
That's basically it, it's not a difficult trick, but you do need to be rather quick with the dog while getting there so the boy is farther away. Again, do NOT diagonal run unless you have to, this reduces the distance between you (the dog) and the boy (AI). Also, keep in mind this is considered a somewhat "advanced" trick in my opinion because it requires the player to adapt every time they do it instead of being non-variable, so you will have a variance in time savings of at least 1-2s on average once you're good at it.
Here are my statistics using this method:
Ideal Skips: 24
"Okay" Skips: 110
Bad things happened: 16
These are slightly skewed since I've been working on the TAS and have grown very familiar with the trigger locations, I don't expect anyone to have it down immediately, but you should be getting around a 70% success rate after a decent amount of attempts.
Hope this helped, good luck with it guys.
edit:
Forgot to mention that there is an issue with a maggot just after the 1st part of the skip. You just have to attack him to get him out of the way or run farther away with the boy to despawn him. This is something each player will have to find a comfort zone with, sometimes the maggot just doesn't even show up. I think it's based on proximity when doing the skip but I'm not entirely sure as to his mechanics just yet. I don't believe GreenAmbler figured out that maggot's spawning trigger either, so it's up in the air for testing if someone wants to make this a little easier on people.
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
AWESOME tutorial Panda, I love how you have a picture showing the spots as well as a couple different options for how to do it. This def will start getting put into runs I'm sure. Now that being said would you advise picking up the 3 clay in the hut as a counter to this? Or would you instead suggest getting the extra 2 clay in Quicksand? What are your thoughts on what clays we should be picking up now?
Edit history:
TheAngryPanda: 2013-09-30 11:47:48 pm
TheAngryPanda: 2013-09-30 03:07:57 pm
TheAngryPanda: 2013-09-30 07:39:50 am
TheAngryPanda: 2013-09-30 07:30:41 am
Speed > Safety
Clay:
Village:
-3 clay hut (~a lot)
Southern Forest:
-2 clay (~2.25s)
Eastern Forest:
-1 clay entrance flower (~1s)
-1 clay middle area along cliffs/grass (~1.5s)
-1 clay exit flower (~1/2s)
Quicksand Area:
-1 clay container inside JTR Cave (~1 to 2s, depending on location)
-1 clay left of pillar (~2s)
-1 clay right of skull before 4 crystal container (~2.5s)
Bugmuck:
-1 or 3 clay HB cave grass (~.25s or ~1.25s, depending on controlling boy/controlling dog, respectively)
-1 clay HB cave container (~25s)
-1 clay middle grass (~1.75s or ~3.25s, fluctuates a lot depending on various things)
Big Bug:
-1 clay post-BBMSkip (???, not sure, I don't run real-time anymore so I don't know what we're looking at for this one, I'd imagine we should avoid it unless needed)
-1 clay left of BB2Lower entrance post-maze area (???, not sure, I'd assume it's a relatively static pick up but just don't have a good average)
-[BB2Lower] 1 clay (~1s)
-[BB2Middle] 1 clay (~1/5s, easily the best pickup in the game)
-[BB2EastCliffs] 1 clay above container (???, again, no idea... it was phased out a long time ago)
-[BB2Upper] 1 clay (~a lot, but used by some as part of a despawn setup, costs time but probably fine for beginning routes)
-[BB2Upper] 1 clay (???, I seem to remember there being clay somewhere to the left of the entrance to Thraxx along where the maggot is, possibly use this is as a last resort backup)
You'll probably note there's only 17 options here, you'd be correct. I haven't touched routing since Lamb and I found the Horace Skip because it's such a massive game changer due to it's volatile nature and complete disregard for anything Crush releated (this includes Defend for me). That being said, these times are a hybridized average from my TAS research and my old real-time deviations from a notebook. They are not 100% accurate and each player will adapt to the route they choose differently. I suggest running 12 HB routes and only grabbing more if you absolutely need it. You shouldn't be using this skip without the mindset of going for pure speed because it cuts out a lot of consistency within the maze itself.
Cystals should be obvious where they're at, but just in case:
Village:
-nectar from inn hut
-30 talons from hut west of inn
Quicksand Area:
-4 crystal container
Bugmuck:
-1 or 3 crystal from dead-end path if you're comfortable with the new IFG (Ingredient Flag Glitch)
-10 from buying with the 120 talons you have
-2 crystal container right of HB cave
-1 or 2 crystal from inlet near entrance to big bug
Technically, you're fastest option is the 4 container in Quicksand + buying for a 14 HB route, even though you'd only use 12. That being said, there may be ways to remove buying a stack and dropping the 2nd hut in the village to potentially save time. This is something you guys will have to figure out on your own because it's a very adaptable process and since I don't actually run the game anymore, I'm probably too far out of practice to comfortably suggest something to do. I do think cutting the 2nd hut out would end up faster, but I'm not sure by how much or if the risk would be worth it. The way you would do this (properly...) would be:
-4 container crystals
-3 dead-end path crystal (use IFG)
-switch dog, grab 3 clay from grass right of HB cave as boy auto-walks to you through the maggot (there are issues with this that are potential run-enders)
-buy 5 crystal
-[IF you fail the IFG with the dead-end path crystals] 2 crystal container right of HB cave
There are lots of "things" to deal with in the above route, but it's a good starting point for people who want to try and push the game time lower before I start working on the routes again.
edit:
The current route I have in my head is this:
Southern Forest:
-2 clay
Village:
-nectar from inn
-30 talon hut
Eastern Forest:
-1 clay entrance
-1 clay middle-ish area
-1 clay exit
Quicksand Area:
-1 clay JTR cave
-4 crystal container
Bugmuck:
-1 clay HB cave grass
-10 crystal (buy them...)
-1 clay HB cave
-1 clay middle grass
BBMaze:
-1 clay post-skip
BB2Lower:
-1 clay**
BB2Middle:
-1 clay
BB2Upper:
-1 clay**
**Interchange these depending on your preference.
This is a rough draft of the route, it hasn't been tested and is going on pure memory. So don't assume this is the best route, it likely isn't.
Edit2:
I'd like to just point out that this is not meant for people that aren't going after the WR right now. If you can save more than a minute on your current run, ignore this entirely and continue with the Crush routes. It's a very tedious trick to learn and very finicky until you're used to it. That being said, grinding it out definitely wouldn't hurt in terms of improving your execution. Just felt like posting this up here because I don't want people to think this kind of thing is absolutely required to run the game. It's not even in a route yet and that alone should tell you how I feel about it at the moment.
Village:
-3 clay hut (~a lot)
Southern Forest:
-2 clay (~2.25s)
Eastern Forest:
-1 clay entrance flower (~1s)
-1 clay middle area along cliffs/grass (~1.5s)
-1 clay exit flower (~1/2s)
Quicksand Area:
-1 clay container inside JTR Cave (~1 to 2s, depending on location)
-1 clay left of pillar (~2s)
-1 clay right of skull before 4 crystal container (~2.5s)
Bugmuck:
-1 or 3 clay HB cave grass (~.25s or ~1.25s, depending on controlling boy/controlling dog, respectively)
-1 clay HB cave container (~25s)
-1 clay middle grass (~1.75s or ~3.25s, fluctuates a lot depending on various things)
Big Bug:
-1 clay post-BBMSkip (???, not sure, I don't run real-time anymore so I don't know what we're looking at for this one, I'd imagine we should avoid it unless needed)
-1 clay left of BB2Lower entrance post-maze area (???, not sure, I'd assume it's a relatively static pick up but just don't have a good average)
-[BB2Lower] 1 clay (~1s)
-[BB2Middle] 1 clay (~1/5s, easily the best pickup in the game)
-[BB2EastCliffs] 1 clay above container (???, again, no idea... it was phased out a long time ago)
-[BB2Upper] 1 clay (~a lot, but used by some as part of a despawn setup, costs time but probably fine for beginning routes)
-[BB2Upper] 1 clay (???, I seem to remember there being clay somewhere to the left of the entrance to Thraxx along where the maggot is, possibly use this is as a last resort backup)
You'll probably note there's only 17 options here, you'd be correct. I haven't touched routing since Lamb and I found the Horace Skip because it's such a massive game changer due to it's volatile nature and complete disregard for anything Crush releated (this includes Defend for me). That being said, these times are a hybridized average from my TAS research and my old real-time deviations from a notebook. They are not 100% accurate and each player will adapt to the route they choose differently. I suggest running 12 HB routes and only grabbing more if you absolutely need it. You shouldn't be using this skip without the mindset of going for pure speed because it cuts out a lot of consistency within the maze itself.
Cystals should be obvious where they're at, but just in case:
Village:
-nectar from inn hut
-30 talons from hut west of inn
Quicksand Area:
-4 crystal container
Bugmuck:
-1 or 3 crystal from dead-end path if you're comfortable with the new IFG (Ingredient Flag Glitch)
-10 from buying with the 120 talons you have
-2 crystal container right of HB cave
-1 or 2 crystal from inlet near entrance to big bug
Technically, you're fastest option is the 4 container in Quicksand + buying for a 14 HB route, even though you'd only use 12. That being said, there may be ways to remove buying a stack and dropping the 2nd hut in the village to potentially save time. This is something you guys will have to figure out on your own because it's a very adaptable process and since I don't actually run the game anymore, I'm probably too far out of practice to comfortably suggest something to do. I do think cutting the 2nd hut out would end up faster, but I'm not sure by how much or if the risk would be worth it. The way you would do this (properly...) would be:
-4 container crystals
-3 dead-end path crystal (use IFG)
-switch dog, grab 3 clay from grass right of HB cave as boy auto-walks to you through the maggot (there are issues with this that are potential run-enders)
-buy 5 crystal
-[IF you fail the IFG with the dead-end path crystals] 2 crystal container right of HB cave
There are lots of "things" to deal with in the above route, but it's a good starting point for people who want to try and push the game time lower before I start working on the routes again.
edit:
The current route I have in my head is this:
Southern Forest:
-2 clay
Village:
-nectar from inn
-30 talon hut
Eastern Forest:
-1 clay entrance
-1 clay middle-ish area
-1 clay exit
Quicksand Area:
-1 clay JTR cave
-4 crystal container
Bugmuck:
-1 clay HB cave grass
-10 crystal (buy them...)
-1 clay HB cave
-1 clay middle grass
BBMaze:
-1 clay post-skip
BB2Lower:
-1 clay**
BB2Middle:
-1 clay
BB2Upper:
-1 clay**
**Interchange these depending on your preference.
This is a rough draft of the route, it hasn't been tested and is going on pure memory. So don't assume this is the best route, it likely isn't.
Edit2:
I'd like to just point out that this is not meant for people that aren't going after the WR right now. If you can save more than a minute on your current run, ignore this entirely and continue with the Crush routes. It's a very tedious trick to learn and very finicky until you're used to it. That being said, grinding it out definitely wouldn't hurt in terms of improving your execution. Just felt like posting this up here because I don't want people to think this kind of thing is absolutely required to run the game. It's not even in a route yet and that alone should tell you how I feel about it at the moment.
New PB tonight of 1:27:30! Not the greatest run but improved my previous PB by 1:40; now I am aiming for sub 1:25.
http://www.twitch.tv/lovablelambchop/c/3016086
Also I've been grinding out BBM skip and it is very doable. It takes time to get used to the visual ques but for the most part is not that bad. Here is an example of me getting the skip:
http://www.twitch.tv/lovablelambchop/c/3016112
http://www.twitch.tv/lovablelambchop/c/3016086
Also I've been grinding out BBM skip and it is very doable. It takes time to get used to the visual ques but for the most part is not that bad. Here is an example of me getting the skip:
http://www.twitch.tv/lovablelambchop/c/3016112
Speed > Safety
I wonder if the position/spawning/blah blah blah of that maggot off to the right after the Tar Snake is linked to the maggot that gives us trouble... Will have to look into that later if I remember.
Grats on the PB and learning the skip lambchop. ~10-14s improvement I think is what we said it was saving? Seems pretty accurate. Need to use it with a full 12 HB route though and killing Thraxx ~10-15 times to get a solid average though.
Route I've been using during tests on emulator:
Southern Forest:
-2 clay
Village:
-nectar
-30 talons
Eastern Forest:
-1 clay entrance
-1 clay middle
-1 clay exit
Quicksand Area:
-buy petal
-sell petal + nectar
-1 clay JTR cave container
-4 crystal container
Bugmuck:
-1 clay HB cave grass
-10 crystal (buy them...)
-1 clay HB cave container
-1 clay grass (sniff dog so he doesn't get stuck when you want to switch back)
Big Bug 1 (Post-Maze Skip):
-1 clay just after maze skip
Big Bug 2 Lower:
-1 clay a entrance
Big Bug 2 Middle:
-1 clay after going under 1st bridge
So far it's worked out great, there's optimizations which may or may not improve that route, but I haven't tested them yet...
*cut the 30 talon hut option:
-get nectar then leave village
-don't grab eastern forest middle clay
-grab 1 crystal down dead-end path in bugmuck, then 3 clay from HB cave grass
-buy 5 crystals
-grab 2 crystal container outside of HB cave
-don't grab middle grass clay
A sub-variant of the above alternate route would be to:
-not grab 4 crystal container in quicksand area
-IFG on dead-end path crystal to get 3 crystals
-grab the 2 crystal container
-----This gives you only 11 HB so you can cut 1 more clay as well. While decreasing odds of success vs Thraxx, you do manage to cut some serious time here. I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you've got some patience for resetting on Thraxx.
Grats on the PB and learning the skip lambchop.
Route I've been using during tests on emulator:
Southern Forest:
-2 clay
Village:
-nectar
-30 talons
Eastern Forest:
-1 clay entrance
-1 clay middle
-1 clay exit
Quicksand Area:
-buy petal
-sell petal + nectar
-1 clay JTR cave container
-4 crystal container
Bugmuck:
-1 clay HB cave grass
-10 crystal (buy them...)
-1 clay HB cave container
-1 clay grass (sniff dog so he doesn't get stuck when you want to switch back)
Big Bug 1 (Post-Maze Skip):
-1 clay just after maze skip
Big Bug 2 Lower:
-1 clay a entrance
Big Bug 2 Middle:
-1 clay after going under 1st bridge
So far it's worked out great, there's optimizations which may or may not improve that route, but I haven't tested them yet...
*cut the 30 talon hut option:
-get nectar then leave village
-don't grab eastern forest middle clay
-grab 1 crystal down dead-end path in bugmuck, then 3 clay from HB cave grass
-buy 5 crystals
-grab 2 crystal container outside of HB cave
-don't grab middle grass clay
A sub-variant of the above alternate route would be to:
-not grab 4 crystal container in quicksand area
-IFG on dead-end path crystal to get 3 crystals
-grab the 2 crystal container
-----This gives you only 11 HB so you can cut 1 more clay as well. While decreasing odds of success vs Thraxx, you do manage to cut some serious time here. I wouldn't recommend doing it unless you've got some patience for resetting on Thraxx.
Speed > Safety
http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/Secret_of_Evermore:RAM_map
Stumbled upon this today, would have helped a ton a long time ago but it's a good reference for people with emulators who want to test things.
That being said, it does not include the address(es?) that are essentially a timer for how much time is left on various status effects. Unless I glanced over it of course... which is possible. Anyways, posting this here in case someone happens to know the addresses.
I also threw together a new progression tracker for the TAS. I haven't been streaming much of it because I'm being extremely picky which means the stream isn't exactly entertaining at all.
An interesting thing I actually finished testing today (mostly since I remembered to)...
----Do note that this is purely for the Act 1 dog at the moment, if it's really needed I'll do the others that are relevant as well, let me know.----
Start frame: 160
Dog Diagonal Movement (in frames - in distance - pattern)
*The first frame is AFTER input has been received by the frame before it, as in, frame 0 = initial input of sequence.
0 - 315 - +3
1 - 318 - +3
2 - 322 - +4
3 - 325 - +3
4 - 328 - +3
5 - 331 - +4
6 - 335 - +3
7 - 338 - +3
8 - 341 - +4
9 - 344 - +3
10 - 348 - +3
As you can see, as you progress throughout time, you are repeating the same pattern regardless of anything other than something stopping your movement capability. Running against walls continues this pattern as well, so don't worry about that. Remember we're only worrying about Vertical distance here, horizontal is a variable aspect and directly related to each map and therefore is essentially pointless to compare since it will be forced upon you regardless of data results.
The patteren is a repeating 3, 3, 4, addition to distance over time (frames). Now let's look at straight up and down movement:
Dog Vertical Movement (in frames - in distance - pattern)
*The first frame is AFTER input has been received by the frame before it, as in, frame 0 = initial input of sequence.
0 - 316 - +4
1 - 320 - +4
2 - 324 - +4
3 - 328 - +4
4 - 332 - +4
5 - 336 - +4
6 - 340 - +4
7 - 344 - +4
8 - 348 - +4
9 - 352 - +4
10 - 356 - +4
This time we have no variance, variance is bad, so this is good... great actually. This essentially shows that for every 3 frames of movement you can 2 "distance units" using vertical instead of diagonal. Do remember that this is IN FRAMES, not seconds, but 1/60th of seconds. Every 1/20th of a second you spend going diagonal you're losing time. That being said, this could explain how some runs seems to be perfect yet we get red splits, those runs (yes, I actually went back and watched them to make sure) were diagonal sprinting in non-optimal locations. This is due to me/us not fully understanding the sprinting before, but now we do, so let's talk change!
Act 1 (pretty much only applies here at the moment)
Southern Forest:
-Boy should be diagonally walking as often as possible, straight-line savings = ~2s (this obviously doesn't include flowers...)
Raptor Attack:
-Doesn't matter
Village:
-Diagonal as much as possible while on boy
-Dog Control Breakdown-
--You want to sniff the dog at some point such that when you release R the dog will arrive near you when you have the boy near the trigger for the leash past the guard.
--If you need an example of this, watch the v1.6 TAS on youtube and watch what the dog does. This is different from any%, but same concept. Video here =
Eastern Forest:
-Boy diagonal
-Dog sniffed at entrance
Quicksand pre-sprint:
-Boy diagonal
Quicksand post-sprint:
-Don't use boy for movement unless you have to (picking up crystal container doesn't count)
-Dog vertical as often as possible, diagonal only when avoiding terrain.
-There is a particular exception to this in that the quicksand pool in the middle of the area between the crystal container location and the pillar with the clay to the left of it will slow you down if you run vertically across it. You should run diagonally against the wall here and continue doing so until reaching a point such that you can go vertical into the crystal container area.
Bugmuck:
-Boy Control Breakdown-
--Depending on your route, you'll be using the boy heavily or not at all other than to pick up things
*-Heavy Boy Control Route --> Try and stay diagonal as often as possible, the "walls" are fairly generous here so attempt to walk along them to optimize sprinting with a constant directional input
*-Lower Boy Control Route --> When going to pick up items, be sure to have a diagonal approach and mash B once you know you're in the locations hit box for picking up the ingredient
-Dog Control Breakdown-
--Again, there are two different route methods available, heavy and low control
*-Lower Dog Control Route --> This one is subject to generic rules of run with the dog on straightline areas vertically, avoid hindering terrain to maximize gain over diagonal running
*-Heavy Dog Control route:
---Segment A (Start --> HB Cave)
----Immediately begin by running diagonally right into the weeds
----Now run straight down until reaching the brownish plant on the right of your screen and the rock below you should be coming into camera view
----Run diagonally to the right after the rock appears on your screen until reaching a point where you're directly below the giant black rock in the middle of the tar pit above you
----Run straight down (this manipulation forces the maggot out of the dog's fat hitbox path
----(Variance in routes here, but they all end up leaving HB Cave as dog)
---Segment B (HB Cave exit --> Big Bug)
----Make your way around the area up to the place where there's a small gap between some grass and the cliff
----Diagonally run through that point then vertically up to just before the brown grass on your left is near you
----Run diagonally right at this point and hope to the RNG spawning gods that the maggot there allows you to pass graciously beneath him, otherwise go up and over
----Go right, then go straight down the path that goes under the bridges. This path will push your character into the proper places to progress if you simply HOLD DOWN and sprint.
----Attack the maggot and run straight down until you have to go right then straight up into Big Bug
Big Bug:
-Run vertically here unless you're moving around enemies/getting to the skip location
-If for whatever reason you're still using the old Boy route here for the extra 3 clay, learn the BBMSkip and save 14 seconds instead
Thraxx:
-only here as a formality
Bugmuck Cliffs/Quicksand Cliffs/Eastern Forest/Village/Northern Forest/Volcano Entrance:
-all of these are pretty obvious on what to do really, so I'm not going to bother
Volcano Main area:
-Diagonally run as boy as often as possible
Volcano Sewers:
-Run in straight up and down lines only going diagonal to adjust position to stay on the right pathway, left/right pathways should be the same as normal
-When coming out of the switch room as dog just hold UP, then when you get "caught" on the pipe, hold UP + RIGHT to adjust, proceed to magmar
Magmar:
-yay act 1 is over and you can kiss this BS goodbye because you're getting spear soon.
Stumbled upon this today, would have helped a ton a long time ago but it's a good reference for people with emulators who want to test things.
That being said, it does not include the address(es?) that are essentially a timer for how much time is left on various status effects. Unless I glanced over it of course... which is possible. Anyways, posting this here in case someone happens to know the addresses.
I also threw together a new progression tracker for the TAS. I haven't been streaming much of it because I'm being extremely picky which means the stream isn't exactly entertaining at all.
An interesting thing I actually finished testing today (mostly since I remembered to)...
----Do note that this is purely for the Act 1 dog at the moment, if it's really needed I'll do the others that are relevant as well, let me know.----
Start frame: 160
Dog Diagonal Movement (in frames - in distance - pattern)
*The first frame is AFTER input has been received by the frame before it, as in, frame 0 = initial input of sequence.
0 - 315 - +3
1 - 318 - +3
2 - 322 - +4
3 - 325 - +3
4 - 328 - +3
5 - 331 - +4
6 - 335 - +3
7 - 338 - +3
8 - 341 - +4
9 - 344 - +3
10 - 348 - +3
As you can see, as you progress throughout time, you are repeating the same pattern regardless of anything other than something stopping your movement capability. Running against walls continues this pattern as well, so don't worry about that. Remember we're only worrying about Vertical distance here, horizontal is a variable aspect and directly related to each map and therefore is essentially pointless to compare since it will be forced upon you regardless of data results.
The patteren is a repeating 3, 3, 4, addition to distance over time (frames). Now let's look at straight up and down movement:
Dog Vertical Movement (in frames - in distance - pattern)
*The first frame is AFTER input has been received by the frame before it, as in, frame 0 = initial input of sequence.
0 - 316 - +4
1 - 320 - +4
2 - 324 - +4
3 - 328 - +4
4 - 332 - +4
5 - 336 - +4
6 - 340 - +4
7 - 344 - +4
8 - 348 - +4
9 - 352 - +4
10 - 356 - +4
This time we have no variance, variance is bad, so this is good... great actually. This essentially shows that for every 3 frames of movement you can 2 "distance units" using vertical instead of diagonal. Do remember that this is IN FRAMES, not seconds, but 1/60th of seconds. Every 1/20th of a second you spend going diagonal you're losing time. That being said, this could explain how some runs seems to be perfect yet we get red splits, those runs (yes, I actually went back and watched them to make sure) were diagonal sprinting in non-optimal locations. This is due to me/us not fully understanding the sprinting before, but now we do, so let's talk change!
Act 1 (pretty much only applies here at the moment)
Southern Forest:
-Boy should be diagonally walking as often as possible, straight-line savings = ~2s (this obviously doesn't include flowers...)
Raptor Attack:
-Doesn't matter
Village:
-Diagonal as much as possible while on boy
-Dog Control Breakdown-
--You want to sniff the dog at some point such that when you release R the dog will arrive near you when you have the boy near the trigger for the leash past the guard.
--If you need an example of this, watch the v1.6 TAS on youtube and watch what the dog does. This is different from any%, but same concept. Video here =
Eastern Forest:
-Boy diagonal
-Dog sniffed at entrance
Quicksand pre-sprint:
-Boy diagonal
Quicksand post-sprint:
-Don't use boy for movement unless you have to (picking up crystal container doesn't count)
-Dog vertical as often as possible, diagonal only when avoiding terrain.
-There is a particular exception to this in that the quicksand pool in the middle of the area between the crystal container location and the pillar with the clay to the left of it will slow you down if you run vertically across it. You should run diagonally against the wall here and continue doing so until reaching a point such that you can go vertical into the crystal container area.
Bugmuck:
-Boy Control Breakdown-
--Depending on your route, you'll be using the boy heavily or not at all other than to pick up things
*-Heavy Boy Control Route --> Try and stay diagonal as often as possible, the "walls" are fairly generous here so attempt to walk along them to optimize sprinting with a constant directional input
*-Lower Boy Control Route --> When going to pick up items, be sure to have a diagonal approach and mash B once you know you're in the locations hit box for picking up the ingredient
-Dog Control Breakdown-
--Again, there are two different route methods available, heavy and low control
*-Lower Dog Control Route --> This one is subject to generic rules of run with the dog on straightline areas vertically, avoid hindering terrain to maximize gain over diagonal running
*-Heavy Dog Control route:
---Segment A (Start --> HB Cave)
----Immediately begin by running diagonally right into the weeds
----Now run straight down until reaching the brownish plant on the right of your screen and the rock below you should be coming into camera view
----Run diagonally to the right after the rock appears on your screen until reaching a point where you're directly below the giant black rock in the middle of the tar pit above you
----Run straight down (this manipulation forces the maggot out of the dog's fat hitbox path
----(Variance in routes here, but they all end up leaving HB Cave as dog)
---Segment B (HB Cave exit --> Big Bug)
----Make your way around the area up to the place where there's a small gap between some grass and the cliff
----Diagonally run through that point then vertically up to just before the brown grass on your left is near you
----Run diagonally right at this point and hope to the RNG spawning gods that the maggot there allows you to pass graciously beneath him, otherwise go up and over
----Go right, then go straight down the path that goes under the bridges. This path will push your character into the proper places to progress if you simply HOLD DOWN and sprint.
----Attack the maggot and run straight down until you have to go right then straight up into Big Bug
Big Bug:
-Run vertically here unless you're moving around enemies/getting to the skip location
-If for whatever reason you're still using the old Boy route here for the extra 3 clay, learn the BBMSkip and save 14 seconds instead
Thraxx:
-only here as a formality
Bugmuck Cliffs/Quicksand Cliffs/Eastern Forest/Village/Northern Forest/Volcano Entrance:
-all of these are pretty obvious on what to do really, so I'm not going to bother
Volcano Main area:
-Diagonally run as boy as often as possible
Volcano Sewers:
-Run in straight up and down lines only going diagonal to adjust position to stay on the right pathway, left/right pathways should be the same as normal
-When coming out of the switch room as dog just hold UP, then when you get "caught" on the pipe, hold UP + RIGHT to adjust, proceed to magmar
Magmar:
-yay act 1 is over and you can kiss this BS goodbye because you're getting spear soon.
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Quote from TheAngryPanda:
http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/Secret_of_Evermore:RAM_map
Stumbled upon this today, would have helped a ton a long time ago but it's a good reference for people with emulators who want to test things.
That being said, it does not include the address(es?) that are essentially a timer for how much time is left on various status effects. Unless I glanced over it of course... which is possible. Anyways, posting this here in case someone happens to know the addresses.
Stumbled upon this today, would have helped a ton a long time ago but it's a good reference for people with emulators who want to test things.
That being said, it does not include the address(es?) that are essentially a timer for how much time is left on various status effects. Unless I glanced over it of course... which is possible. Anyways, posting this here in case someone happens to know the addresses.
i'll add those soon.
Speed > Safety
So I had to start over from eastern forest again in the TAS. I'm doing 9 HB on thraxx now with the discovery that it can do 606 damage to Thraxx. I tried 8x for about 2 hours and couldn't find a good manipulation to kill Thraxx so 9 seems to be the minimum. Highest 8x was something like 477 - 489 I think, which wasn't enough even though other damage would indicate that it was. Weird. Anyways, Thraxx is killing my motivation for this game rapidly since everything I try ends up being completely wrong or inconsistent with why that fight ends with lag sometimes and then doesn't at other times, even on the same save state with the same cast/attack sequence, just different manipulations. I've tested just about everything I can think of to pinpoint the reason behind this and have come up short every single time, and this includes all the real-time runs I used to do, the various TAS versions, and general testing (it's well above 10000 attempts at this point). Anyways, if you guys have any ideas, I would absolutely love to hear them because I'm at a complete loss right now.
Also, I think a few people are planning to learn 100% soon, I think it would be nice to have all those people on a skype call while someone streams it in the mean time. Or make some sort of tutorial out of it somehow, I think that was the plan we were going with initially anyways. Thoughts?
Also, I think a few people are planning to learn 100% soon, I think it would be nice to have all those people on a skype call while someone streams it in the mean time. Or make some sort of tutorial out of it somehow, I think that was the plan we were going with initially anyways. Thoughts?
www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH
Quote:
That being said, it does not include the address(es?) that are essentially a timer for how much time is left on various status effects. Unless I glanced over it of course... which is possible. Anyways, posting this here in case someone happens to know the addresses.
Thats a very nice Idea panda, I researched it for a short moment. The following data is for poison only!
7E4ED1 = Poison Duration, this adress counts up to 1800 (2 bytes), after the value is reached Poison is over.
7E4ED3 = Poison Damage Ticks, counts up to 480 (2 bytes), after the value is reached, Poison Damage gets triggered.
So poison Triggers damage 3,75 times (1800/480) which means 3 times in the end. Thats not much actually, never thought about that.
Edit: Oh i forgot, those are the boys adresses, haven't looked for the dog ones yet.
Edit2: Checked it again, its the first status effect gained or buff casted on the boy. I'll search for the others soon.
Speed > Safety
Cool, thank you. The dog's poison/plague/whatever counter doesn't really matter since you can't underflow anything super useful to the dog. I've toyed with the idea of looking into "dieing" and triggering the pixie dust effect during a level up to see what happens, but haven't really gotten back to a point in the TAS to do so.