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I have some new ideas but it's not 100% ready

So the safe verm skip was thrown out the window cause of the menu opening causing time loss. Now there are new strats for killing Aquagoth 30 Crush + Call Beads. You only need to buy 2x5 Wax & 6x5 Limstone so that's 720 jewels in total.

I would fit early Blimp Cave buying & Safe Verm skip together like this:
So no Viper kill just 2 Skelesnails. I would not kill a mosquito to level to 66. I would head to Act 2 with 66 health with one kill away from leveling. First go to Nobilia to start timer, then change money and buy 2xnectar, 3xwings, pixie, atlas medallion.
Then head out but keep to the upper section near the whirlpool. One spider will appear kill it to gain a level and then step on to the whirlpool. No more enemies will attack you. Use 2 nectars just before dieing.

Then go back to Nobilia. Fastest way is:
Buy amulet (You don't even have to cheat him just get one for 30 rice if you're in a hurry!)
Buy Beads (You have enough money for 5 if you don't wanna buy 3 + Less dialog boxes)
Buy Chickens
Buy Jade Disk
Sell remaining Rice & Spice
You get just over 1000 jewels if you bought one amulet for 30 rice. Or get just over 1100 if you cheated the poor amulet merchant Smiley That's enough money to buy Crush ingredients.
Also this way you open less dialog menus then before I think so no time loss there.

Now head back and buy Crush ingredients. Then do the Atlas glitch and pick up rest of the ingredients nearby. And then wait in Nobilia for the timer to end.

Now there is an issue with this strat. You have less money beginning of Act 2 to get 5 Wings. You can get 2 Wings later when you have enough money but that's more screen transitions and would render the early Blimp buying useless.
There just needs to be about 75 more jewels to buy 2 more Wings. Or you don't buy Pixie Dust. Or you have some nectars or petals from Act 1? Or 2 more Wings.
Is there 1Pixie Dust in a good location to pick up? One Pixie Dust and the strat would work! That would be the easiest solution!
What about Nectars? Or Wings?

Of course you can just buy Crush ingredients during timer but after Atlas glitch for slighty less time gain.
I Think there can be some time saved on early Blimp buying + Safe Verm skip but yeah need to figure out a few more things for the strats to work
Hope what I wrote makes sense, english is not my first language.embarassed
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Taivo proposed some interesting ideas on Crawek's channel that got me to thinking is it possible to get 48 Vinegar without buying and is it time viable? This would be thrown in with the Safe Verm Skip meaning we'd only need enough to kill off Aquago...wait a sec...we'd only need 32 or 33 vinegar and 66 water...since we'd skipping verm completely. That drops the amount of stuff we need by a TON and we could effectively grab what we need. The issue is can we find 33 vinegar without having to buy it and without wasting a lot of time? If we can it would be an overall net gain and the fact we'd only need money for water would save us a few seconds on the buying part (Less time in the ring menu buying from Horace)

Obviously there is a lot of questions about this but the more I ponder it, the more it becomes very possible. Let's also remember that Sting is a faster cast animation to cancel out as well as get back into the ring menu as well. It's I wanna say at least a full second of time saved per 8 cast as you have to wait for Crush to go off then drop back down where Sting is just BOOM instant bees.
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Sorry for the double post but I had another idea which would drop this even lower. We would need less Vinegar even since we're only concerned with killing Aquagoth and since we'll have 8/9 Call beads meaning we could just full on cast everything on Aquagoth. So we don't even have to precast on Aqua since the extra dmg would be faster overall would it not? Meaning we could get away with 28 Sting/8 Flare could we not? It is slightly more risky but considering the speed of what we'd gain it'd be FAR faster than before I believe. I'll do some RTA testing on it but GA could you look into that possibility as well?
Unloading all my findings from yesterday:

Alright, so retimed some things. Buying during timer on Blimp Revisit only delays timer 6.5 seconds it seems, making Single Visit Blimp essentially not viable.

I did more scouring for Limestone and Wax and found some decent pickups for each, though usefulness is mostly negligible. One thing we've been overlooking is there is a bone pickup on bottom right of second act 2 screen that changes next ingredient flag to 4, meaning we can potentially get 7xLime and 9xWax (or 6x 10x) for free after Atlas glitch.

(These probably are not useful but I figured worth noting: The riverbank screen has potential for 2 3xLime and 1 3xWax pickups with minimal time loss (~2 seconds to get both). There's a 2xWax gourd we run by in FE village by north exit. Underground tunnels has 2 pickups for limestone and wax each, could get 3x and 4x each respectively with <2 seconds detouring. The pots behind barricade next to DE skip contain 3xLime and 4xWax with potentially another 3xWax pickup)

If we skip casting any Crush pre-Aqua, 44 should be enough something like 75% of the time. I did 7x 7x 7x 7x 2x/5cb Aqua, and 8x 6x/4cb Verm and it usually was enough, but we might want 45/46 for runs depending on desired safety. Let's say 46 for now.

We get 23(+8) wax and 6 lime "free" (with potential to increase either by 1) so that's 8xLime and 3xWax purchases (1140j). The other pickups could bring it down a few hundred jewels but overall you'd be adding more time than you save. So Single Visit Blimp is not really viable. Just grind in desert and buy ingredients during timer. Crush buying will come down to runner's preference, but I'd say 45 is a good number if you only cast on Aqua/Verm.

Route I might run: 45 Crush
(10 Wax from Thraxx, 2 Wax pre-Vigor, 2 wax by DE skip)
4x Wax Gourd by Acid Rain
2x Wax Gourd in FE village
6 Lime 10 Wax post Atlas Glitch
1 Wax Blimp Cave
3 Lime by Ruins pit
4 Wax pot in Ruins 4
6 Lime after Aegis by River
Total: 35 Wax 15 Lime, buy Wax x2 Lime x6
I meant to look into Sting yesterday but wasn't sure it would work. I was thinking we would want at least 30 Vinegar to get Sting to level 2 and significantly boost CB damage, but I'm not sure how much we can get. We would have to visit topleft Nobilia (adds only like 2 seconds to timer) and do some testing to maximize the vinegar pickup amounts (I think there's 3 vinegars? I know there's at least 1 4x ingredient flag and a few 3's, so we could probably get 10 vinegar there. Can get 4 vinegar outside Blimp's cave. I believe Ruins has a x2 vinegar pot, and there's a vinegar pickup on the broken river bridge that could be made x3. I'm not sure if any more are worthwhile)

If you're looking at my calculations for Safe Verm Skip, I believe I neglected to include another time cost which made it less viable. So double check my numbers before we get carried away, or I will when I have time.
Edit history:
MetaSigma: 2016-08-22 04:23:31 pm
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Ok so to bring everything up to much time does a SAFE Verm Skip save us? Like we know FAST Verm Skip saves us around 1m 20s. What would a SAFE one save us? Did we ever find out? Or was that a byproduct of overall with the time save in Act 2? Also what do you mean Single visit Blimp is not viable? Are we talking visiting him during the 15min timer or after that fact?

So as a note I'm doing a dmg test range to see what certain amounts of sting would be overall dmg.

So here is what it would be

Lvl 0 Sting (First 10 Casts) - Dmg Range 250 - 490
Lvl 1 Sting (Min x Max dmg per cast) - 50 - 98
Call Bead Flare with Sting lvl 1 as the Dmg base - 99 - 197

Now given we are going to throw 10 sting and 8 call beads as a basis that gives us: 250 + 792 = 1042 MINIMUM dmg & 490 + 1576 MAXIMUM dmg
Aquagoth has 2500 HP meaning that we'd need to cast another 30 Sting at MINIMUM dmg & 9 casts at MAXIMUM dmg to kill him. That's 19 - 40 casts of Sting.

Now I don't think we're going to get absolute lowest possible dmg to kill this guy nor are we going to get the highest possible dmg. If need be we could always use the 9th call bead which is an additional 99 - 197 dmg. I'm thinking 25 to 28 sting would be enough to kill him though it does all depend on how much vinegar we can find without buying. Water would be Vinegar*2 and that might be just as viable to pickup but at the same time we could always buy it from Blimp if need be.
Edit history:
Taivo40: 2016-08-23 02:35:39 pm
Taivo40: 2016-08-23 02:27:11 pm
Taivo40: 2016-08-23 02:17:20 pm
Taivo40: 2016-08-23 02:14:16 pm
Taivo40: 2016-08-23 02:10:31 pm
I played Act 2 today

I went into the Aquagoth fight with 20 Sting, 2 Hard Ball & 9 Call Beads and killed him 16 times and failed to kill him 2 times. I casted him with 8Sting+8Sting+4Sting 2HardBall 6CallBeads(FLARE)+3CallBeads(FLARE).
It is nowhere near perfect speedwise though but I wanted to see how much Sting I can find and how much I need to kill Aquagoth.
I went into the fight with HB level 3. I think that is the level you have after Magmar kill.
What is great is you can stack cast 8 Sting + 8 Hard Ball!

Some of the Vinegar locations are in good spots but some are a bit further from the route. I probably did not find all the Vinegar.
So perhaps if we go with Sting then we can mix some Hard Ball in there as well? Cause you might lose too much time with some vinegar locations.
I tried 8Sting+8Sting8HB+8CallBeads(Flare) no kill.
Then tried 8Sting+8Sting8HB+1Sting8CallBeads(Flare) sometimes kill sometimes not but not reliable.
Was hoping to kill Aquagoth within 3 casting cycles but probably needs 4 cycles.

So looks like we need 17-18 Sting minimum no matter what. Casting more then 8 Call Beads wastes time compared to Stings fast animaton cancelling although does more damage.
Getting 24 Sting would be perfect but might loose too much time. Plus not sure if there is that many?
Still it is better then levelling Crush by casting 9 + sting is faster as well
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Honestly the best would be 24 Sting and 8 Call beads. Since that'd remove the 2 HBs and 1 Call bead and actually increase the overall dmg you'd do. Plus you'd only have to do 1 full Call Bead 8 cast. Panda though has said that it'd be slower overall gathering the vinegar and picking it up. I'd still like data to back this up (Just so we HAVE data on it regardless) so I'd say 25 would be a fair trade off. Meaning 25 vinegar. 24 might be the BARE Minimum I'd feel is a safe thing to run with.
24 Sting & 8 Call Beads wil lose too much time. Getting 16 Sting results in very little time loss but the last 8 will take too long to get. Save Man in pyramid has 3 and the 5 are behind barriers near DE skip and you have to get another ingredient before.
So getting 24 Sting will not work out!

On a lighter note here is Dog getting dragged to hell!!:P

I've made a pastebin with all the weird stuff that is going on in PAL version. Oddly people keep asking about it Tongue

It says per act what does work and what doesn't. Also some minor stuff is dropped in for PAL players like how to do shopping and little things like that.

So anyone who needs it:

Fun little thing I noticed: you can't softlock at the beginning of Halls of Collosia. You'll drop down the pit, dig does his walk towards it and also drops in. After that you can just leave the prison thing Cheesy
Hm, do you get the defend overflow still?
yes. Get poisoned > Pixie Dust > Defend > Atlas > die

Beforehand get 3 amulets so you can take the boat in the Desert (no need to go to Blimp's Area). Stay in the desert and underflow with spiders, tumbleweeds or sniffs
Safe Verm Skip is still slower, especially if Sting is not viable. If you were to do it, you would still skip doing whirlpool (though still single Blimp visit(i.e. buying after cutscene and never entering his cave)) because the 4 seconds of screen transition + buying/casting nectar is slower than picking up extra Lime/buying less. You could potentially gain something like 6 seconds in act 2, but all the backtracking in act 3 is around 14 seconds slower than just killing Verm. I'm not sure there will ever be a use for SVS outside of some challenge runs or something.
Secret of Evermore 1:17:03 WR
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Finally hit another solid PB Cheesy 1:17:21 with quite a few small mistakes. It might end up being a closer race to the 1:16 than I thought!
Congrats meta. it was a really good run!
Tried timing out how much things delay the market timer. At least on my setup, load times are not consistent. Screen transitions where they game needs to load more will generally be longer, but each one could (randomly?) take a second or two longer, making accurate timing on stuff difficult. I haven't found any way to consistently affect this (besides all dialogue boxes adding minimal time via lag). Here are the timings I have found with 5-10 tries for each. Note that I am including 2 screen transitions in each timing as it is impossible to add only 1 to a route.

market/desert: 3.5 - 5
market/statue screen: 3.75 - 4.75
Atlas building: 2 - 2.5
market Inn: 2.75 - 3.25
market/outside colliseum: 1 - 2
desert/eastern beach: 3 - 4
entering/leaving blimp's cave: 2-3
pirate town/eastern beach: 2.5 - 3
landing zone/eastern beach: .5 - 1
blimp cutscene: 5.5 - 6.5

Not much to take away from this. The only potentially interesting thing is that the eastern beach/landing zone transitions add less than a second, so post Atlas you could respawn the 2 mad monk/3 rogues a few times for an extra 180 jewels to potentially avoid the longer transitions of entering the desert an extra time. As of right now though, I see this being either roughly the same or slower than just grinding in desert and then shopping at Blimp.

Another thing I didn't realize is that you can shop at Madronious after doing mids/ruins, so you could fall at pit after mids and buy vinegar with adding about 17 seconds of detouring. I think it's still like 3-5 seconds slower than crush route even after considering less shopping/casting/spell animations, but just wanted to post for posterity.
Crawek proposed an interesting strat; basically, underflow strength in desert and grinding for crush ingredient money so you can buy from Blimp right after cutscene, eliminating up to ~9 seconds of transitions total. Money will be an issue, you will need to sell rice after first entering market to afford the extra pixie dust and Atlas medallion, adding like 2-3 seconds from dialogue boxes and 1-2 seconds for extra purchasing/casting, so net savings would be ~5 seconds. So route would be:

-Market, buy 80 rice, sell 80 rice, buy 80 rice, get 3 ammies, sell 79 rice. Might need to sell more or route act 1 a bit different though
-Get Atlas and 2 medallions, 2 pixie dust, 3 Wings
-Desert, boat across, underflow strength, grind
-Blimp cutscene, buy ingredients. Get hit by Mad Monk as much as HP allows, hopefully getting one or both statuses. If both, cast PixieDust>Atlas>Defend and die. If just plague, go to desert for a poison then PD>Atlas>Defend. Otherwise you will probably have to add screen transitions and start with a fresh poison, similar to current route

The other possibility this opens up is No-Defend Invul since we have more HP to work with and don't have to worry about underflow. Defend takes ~15-16 seconds to get, so that is a sizeable chunk to save. The issue is that you would need Poison, Plague, and Confound, which requires pretty good luck. Ideally, after Blimp Cutscene, you would get Plague>cast PD>Confound>Poison>Atlas then die. If HP is low and you need more Mad Monk statuses, could cast a nectar if you happened to get one during grind since it's less punishing than screen transitions (could even spend some seconds selling additional rice and just buying some nectar. Could also buy/sell ceramic pots, adding to the timer very slightly but Chocobo Egg could be pretty helpful for invul). The other main downside to this is losing a call bead, meaning we would probably have to route Magmar fight differently.

To add to low-chance strats, we could use the 75 jewel drop manipulation to hope for 75 vinegar from the pickup by the beach. When you inevitably fail (you get three 1.34% chances Smiley ), use the bottom right screen (landing zone) to respawn enemies, adding ~.5-1 seconds each time. Doing some rough math, Sting saves ~12 seconds over Crush so you have plenty of tries!
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Actually Panda told me to just 32x 7x. It's a much lower chance to kill him and you might have to slash to finish him off but it's possible still. The other part of this is you'll need to buy a boatload of water since it takes 2 water/1 Vinegar. So really if you're going all out you're gonna grind jewels for water instead of wax/Limestone money. Though if we go with the new Atlas setup and save the 5s overall we might as well just grind for jewels for water and go for broke since if we have...I wanna say up to 10 tries?
Any further progress?
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Time's down to 1:16:36 Most of the improvements are discussed in a Discord Channel now a days Smiley
Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ
Green Ambler did you at any point test and see what happens when you do a Frame Perfect character switch using the dog on the first Mid's switch? Like you run the dog in and instantly do the gate switch while the boy's outside but you still trigger the gate? I'm curious if the gate stays down (And if so wouldn't that be faster considering it'd skip the slow movement back toward the boy)
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Quote from assassin17, February 2014:
i've had the patch for the stat boost + dying bug largely coded since July, and still haven't released it.  delaying it so much has apparently rotted my mind.  much of the wait is due to the Readme (i.e. i don't feel like writing it)

i finally released the patch in April 2017:

i realize speedrunners don't play on bugfixed games, but figure the loose end is worth tying up, as the bug saw a lot of discussion in this thread.
What's the current progress? Keep up your amazing work.