Secret of Evermore (SNES)

DLDarklink

2016-04-11 02:53:15 am

...

I tried the Crawek/Lemon method last weekend on my console, it crashed Tongue

I tried my old 'setup' that worked 2 years ago, it did not crash Smiley

now that's only 2 attempts so i can't say it's consistent. But i'll keep doing these setups this week and post my results either in Discord or here

TheAngryPanda

2016-04-11 05:29:25 am

Speed > Safety

What exactly is the "old" setup you did? Also, the more attempts you guys put into this (especially on console), the better idea we have of it's actual consistency. Especially since we've more or less ruled out that emulators won't work for accurate testing across all of them.

As a side note for anyone reading that who isn't involved in our normal discussions elsewhere/running the game, that doesn't mean emulators aren't working for SoE, it just means we haven't figured out what the actual issue is yet and different emulators are yielding different results under the "same" testing circumstances.

GinTatsu

2016-04-11 02:32:38 pm

Rad... They have taken me...

I'm going to pick this run up pretty soon. The Verm skip is the only thing having issues on emu yeah? I can still practice the other skips without a problem I take it?

TheAngryPanda

2016-04-11 02:56:14 pm

Speed > Safety

Yeah, everything else is pretty much a-okay. Good luck.

GinTatsu

2016-04-11 03:35:25 pm

Rad... They have taken me...

Thanks! But who needs luck when you have skill! Lol riiiight

TheAngryPanda

2016-04-11 10:25:05 pm

Speed > Safety

Good Luck.

GinTatsu

2016-04-12 11:34:00 am

Rad... They have taken me...

Haha I know right, act 1 is a nightmare. I'm not really an arrogant guy, I just play one on TV. So far the biggest hiccup is keeping the boy from screwing up BBM skip with his chaotic movements! DAMN BOY STAY STILL!

DLDarklink

2016-04-13 07:03:55 am

...

Quote from TheAngryPanda:

What exactly is the "old" setup you did? Also, the more attempts you guys put into this (especially on console), the better idea we have of it's actual consistency. Especially since we've more or less ruled out that emulators won't work for accurate testing across all of them.

my 'old' setup is using wings in the forest and wait for the entire screen is showing, instead of moving on while fade-out is still happening.

i prefer to call them like this:
Lemon setup = fast wings
Darklink setup = slow wings

current results:
SNES mini: Lemon setup: 0/1
SNES mini: Darklink setup: 2/2
Super Famicom: Lemon setup 0/1
Super Famicom: Darklink setup 0/1

GreenAmbler

2016-06-12 10:14:26 am

https://www.twitch.tv/greenambler/v/72037608

Here's a nice little time saver, should save around 4 seconds and not very difficult.

Another thing, I believe ANY dialogue box will slightly delay the Market Timer, by like a frame or so for each. I spent 12 minutes money grinding and otherwise nothing else (no menus or screen transitions) and it took like 14:35 for timer to end. Between this and other things I've overlooked, safe Verm Skip route is definitely slower.

Miev0r

2016-08-03 12:49:23 pm

Just joined the sub 1:20 club Smiley

(1:19:40)
http://imgur.com/WYero5U

Evohwoo

Edit history:

Evohwoo: 2016-08-09 01:52:20 am

2016-08-09 01:51:52 am

Congrats Miev0r!

I finally moved to my new apartment, so I can get back into Evermore and go for that sub 1:20 as well.

Btw, what emulator (and version) are you guys using for playing Evermore?

CrAwEk

2016-08-12 12:26:07 am

Congrats mievor Miev0r!
You can use BizHawk or snes9x 1.53
Bizhawk is better for speedrun.

Skarsnik

2016-08-15 08:01:33 am

I made a lua script (for bizhawk) that can help you practice. It shows the time spent on the previous map when you hit a transition and the time spend since you loaded a savestate.

Basicly you set a savestate before entering a map, do the map. And you can see the time it took you to do the map when entering a new one.

https://gist.github.com/Skarsnik/d7df0eb03f43881da3df4f6622850d56

Here a screenshot
Big numbers at the top right are frame count for the previous map and the time (based on 60fps)
Small numbers at the bottom are the time from the last time you loaded a savestate.
http://imgur.com/a/4Jb3q

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2016-08-16 09:08:56 pm

2016-08-16 03:45:37 am

Looks cool Skars!

Been looking into Market Timer stuff. So, detouring to revisit Blimp takes 10 seconds, and that's not including the time in the menu ring. Menu ring time is lost whether or not you buy during the Market Timer, so it's potentially 10 seconds faster to buy from blimp during timer on first visit. The problem is money, you need ~~1340~~ 1320 jewels to buy at least 4x wax 9xlimestone for 48 Crush. Killing spiders in desert pre-atlas is way too slow to gain so much money, so it wouldn't be enough alone but could help gain an extra hundred or two. You can buy/sell rice in market to gain 80 jewels every 34 seconds or so, but each time you also delay the timer about a second with extra dialogue boxes. So doing some rough math, this would probably just about negate the time saved unless we can route more money/less shopping in (are there any convenient wax/limestone pickups we could get?). Basically, we gain some time from shopping or ingredient/money detouring, but as long as it's less than 10 seconds added it will be faster.

Also, at the cost of ~8 seconds worth of screen transitions, you could just go back to Blimp in his cave to shop during 14 mins, saving around 2 seconds (though I still haven't actually timed it yet). So if nothing else, this should be faster than than current routes.

Looks cool Skars!

Been looking into Market Timer stuff. So, detouring to revisit Blimp takes 10 seconds, and that's not including the time in the menu ring. Menu ring time is lost whether or not you buy during the Market Timer, so it's potentially 10 seconds faster to buy from blimp during timer on first visit. The problem is money, you need [s]1340[/s] 1320 jewels to buy at least 4x wax 9xlimestone for 48 Crush. Killing spiders in desert pre-atlas is way too slow to gain so much money, so it wouldn't be enough alone but could help gain an extra hundred or two. You can buy/sell rice in market to gain 80 jewels every 34 seconds or so, but each time you also delay the timer about a second with extra dialogue boxes. So doing some rough math, this would probably just about negate the time saved unless we can route more money/less shopping in (are there any convenient wax/limestone pickups we could get?). Basically, we gain some time from shopping or ingredient/money detouring, but as long as it's less than 10 seconds added it will be faster.

Also, at the cost of ~8 seconds worth of screen transitions, you could just go back to Blimp in his cave to shop during 14 mins, saving around 2 seconds (though I still haven't actually timed it yet). So if nothing else, this should be faster than than current routes.

Skarsnik

2016-08-16 04:08:59 am

hm, what about getting the stuff you can get when getting sucked by the desert and sell it? Is that too slow?

Taivo40

2016-08-16 11:32:09 am

I want to thank Skarsnik for the script. I might practice this game now thanks to you!

I have been checking out Metasigmas stream as well as this topic to lean a bit about running this game.

Quote:

hm, what about getting the stuff you can get when getting sucked by the desert and sell it? Is that too slow?

I played around with that a bit &...
Getting 99 spice & 99 rice from the whirlpool takes about three and a half minutes plus there is one spider that you should kill before you step on the whirlpool so let's say about four minutes.
You get 396 jewels for 99 Rice and 792 for 99 Spice. You lose 10 jewels to the buyer but you kill one spider (get 18 jewels). That means you get 1178 jewels in total.
But you need to get 2 nectars. I tested it with 75HP and I needed 2 full heals to survive!
Also it prolongs the timer a bit (I think two extra screen transitions)?

TheAngryPanda

2016-08-19 02:49:29 pm

Speed > Safety

If you get 2 nectar it's viable, yeah. But that's still hoping you get 2 nectars, which in this game, is an unreliable option under normal conditions. That being said, there might be opportunities in act 1 to pick up at least 1 nectar to make it significantly less terrible of an option, but that's still a long shot and still comes with a loss in time as well.

We can't keep the nectar from the beginning of act 1 because we have to buy 10 crystals instead. There's not enough crystal along the way to Thraxx to achieve a kill unless you want to go about it the TAS way, which is probably not going to happen. So that option is out as well.

So far as Blimp buying the first time he's met, yeah, it's going to save time for sure. The problem we had before when discussing it was the lack of options to have the $$ to make it happen, which is why it was ultimately dropped in favor of just returning at some point later to buy.

The caveat here is No Defend. No Defend can Atlas glitch off spiders/bone buzzards/tumbleweeds in the desert and never trigger blimp prior to having enough money to buy everything you need. This is one of the few places it actually gains a healthy amount of time over Defend at, on top of other more minor situations. Regardless, that pushes the category into a difficulty most runners have no interest in being at, which is why it's not currently utilized. There's nothing stopping you from getting another pixie dust somewhere, then triggering Defend's underflow as well, but that comes with another time loss and stack additional RNG into the 14 minute timer, which ultimately cuts down on money farming time. This eventually leads towards something like 100%'s situation, where act 2 is actually more optimized than act 1, and if you fail to underflow in X timeframe, your run is over.

SOOOOOOOOOO..... Ionno, it'd be nice to pick up the extra time gain, but I haven't found a solid/reliable way to do so yet other than "get lucky and find 2 nectars before Underflow"

If you get 2 nectar it's viable, yeah. But that's still hoping you get 2 nectars, which in this game, is an unreliable option under normal conditions. That being said, there might be opportunities in act 1 to pick up at least 1 nectar to make it significantly less terrible of an option, but that's still a long shot and still comes with a loss in time as well.

We can't keep the nectar from the beginning of act 1 because we have to buy 10 crystals instead. There's not enough crystal along the way to Thraxx to achieve a kill unless you want to go about it the TAS way, which is probably not going to happen. So that option is out as well.

So far as Blimp buying the first time he's met, yeah, it's going to save time for sure. The problem we had before when discussing it was the lack of options to have the $$ to make it happen, which is why it was ultimately dropped in favor of just returning at some point later to buy.

The caveat here is No Defend. No Defend can Atlas glitch off spiders/bone buzzards/tumbleweeds in the desert and never trigger blimp prior to having enough money to buy everything you need. This is one of the few places it actually gains a healthy amount of time over Defend at, on top of other more minor situations. Regardless, that pushes the category into a difficulty most runners have no interest in being at, which is why it's not currently utilized. There's nothing stopping you from getting another pixie dust somewhere, then triggering Defend's underflow as well, but that comes with another time loss and stack additional RNG into the 14 minute timer, which ultimately cuts down on money farming time. This eventually leads towards something like 100%'s situation, where act 2 is actually more optimized than act 1, and if you fail to underflow in X timeframe, your run is over.

SOOOOOOOOOO..... Ionno, it'd be nice to pick up the extra time gain, but I haven't found a solid/reliable way to do so yet other than "get lucky and find 2 nectars before Underflow"

Taivo40

2016-08-19 03:51:33 pm

I Am looking at Metasigmas PB and what I would do is this:
You go to Nobilia, activate timer & change talons to jewels (You get 480 jewels if you killed Magmar + 2 skelesnails in Act 1). You buy 3 Wings, 1 Pixie Dust, 2 Nectars & Atlas Medallion. That's 455 total.

Then you do the desert whirlpool, heal twice, kill a spider nearby and get 99 rice & spice. You get your health back right after getting 99 Rice & Spice so then you're still a little short on jewels I think? So a few more spider or tumbleweed kills should be enough.

Then sell them for jewels. Then go back to visit Blimp & get all the ingredients for Crush. And after all that you get Atlas glitch, get a bit more money killing stuff and then you buy Amulets & Jade Disk. All in all it should save 10 seconds or so. A little trickier but should be doable in 14 minutes!?

Skarsnik

2016-08-19 05:18:28 pm

Hm. that two extra screen transition if you have to get back to the market to sell your stuff. plus some time lost in sell menu?

Taivo40

2016-08-19 10:26:40 pm

Quote:

Hm. that two extra screen transition if you have to get back to the market to sell your stuff. plus some time lost in sell menu?

Yes some time will be lost to screen transitions and sell menu but extra Blimp visit means 14 seconds lost so with the extra screens I'm guessing 9-10 seconds still gained

Taivo40

2016-08-20 01:15:27 pm

Quote:

The problem is money, you need 1320 jewels to buy at least 4x wax 9xlimestone for 48 Crush.

I played around with it and I think buying 4x wax is not enough. Cause you usually would get around 18 wax from Act 1 & Act 2 + buying 20 is 38 so it's 10 short. Or am I missing something? Thing is getting 1320 jewels during market timer is achievable with whirlpool stuff + killing 7 spiders, but if it's extra 10 wax then it gets too much!

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2016-08-21 05:41:26 pm

GreenAmbler: 2016-08-21 12:26:44 pm

GreenAmbler: 2016-08-21 12:26:23 pm

2016-08-20 02:01:45 pm

I was including some others. Free wax pickups are as follows:
10 from Thraxx
8 outside Blimp's cave
2 before Vigor
2 by DE skip

There is also a 4x wax gourd outside Acid Rain guy's cave and a 4x wax pot in Ruins room 4, both of which take only a fraction of a second to grab, so with those we have 30.

It seems like we want 48 Crush (how thoroughly has this been tested?), so thus 4x more purchases. I was looking for some more pickups to offset the buying more, the only possibly useful thing I've found so far is there's a 2x Limestone pot in Mids, but that costs like 2 seconds and therefore not really helpful even if that means one less purchase (unless we can somehow negate the need for whirlpool at the same time)

~10 seconds max can be gained from single visit Blimp. The route being discussed loses 4 to screen transitions, plus around 3 buying/casting extra nectars, making it roughly 3 seconds faster than current routes at most currently. There are added difficulties as well, spider near whirlpool will likely end the run if you don't kill him first, and the desert damage you take while killing him could also end the run (as well as getting hit by him even once). I'd maybe recommend just using a wings, maybe kill bone buzzards for some "quick" levels although keep in mind they are very random and obnoxious to fight. After a couple levels gained, could maybe replace a nectar with an act1 petal to save <1 second. Could also try to coordinate a level on whirlpool spider to negate a nectar.

The other option I mentioned (Blimp/Atlas/Desert grind like normal, but go back into Blimp's cave to buy ingredients during 15 mins) is much simpler/safer albeit slightly slower than the other, but still ~~2.5~~ 3.5 seconds faster than all currently ran routes. Runners should definitely run one of these two routes from now on, the first one probably has potential for further optimization.

I was including some others. Free wax pickups are as follows:
10 from Thraxx
8 outside Blimp's cave
2 before Vigor
2 by DE skip

There is also a 4x wax gourd outside Acid Rain guy's cave and a 4x wax pot in Ruins room 4, both of which take only a fraction of a second to grab, so with those we have 30.

It seems like we want 48 Crush (how thoroughly has this been tested?), so thus 4x more purchases. I was looking for some more pickups to offset the buying more, the only possibly useful thing I've found so far is there's a 2x Limestone pot in Mids, but that costs like 2 seconds and therefore not really helpful even if that means one less purchase (unless we can somehow negate the need for whirlpool at the same time)

~10 seconds max can be gained from single visit Blimp. The route being discussed loses 4 to screen transitions, plus around 3 buying/casting extra nectars, making it roughly 3 seconds faster than current routes at most currently. There are added difficulties as well, spider near whirlpool will likely end the run if you don't kill him first, and the desert damage you take while killing him could also end the run (as well as getting hit by him even once). I'd maybe recommend just using a wings, maybe kill bone buzzards for some "quick" levels although keep in mind they are very random and obnoxious to fight. After a couple levels gained, could maybe replace a nectar with an act1 petal to save <1 second. Could also try to coordinate a level on whirlpool spider to negate a nectar.

The other option I mentioned (Blimp/Atlas/Desert grind like normal, but go back into Blimp's cave to buy ingredients during 15 mins) is much simpler/safer albeit slightly slower than the other, but still [s]2.5[/s] 3.5 seconds faster than all currently ran routes. Runners should definitely run one of these two routes from now on, the first one probably has potential for further optimization.

Taivo40

2016-08-20 04:52:46 pm

Wings would make things a lot safer in the desert. But where to find Wings later on? It would be great if there was some limestone somewhere. Buying 8x would free up some jewels for Wings or more Wax. Maybe there is some in early Act3?

I wonder if it's possible to gain tiny bit more exp. and money in Act1? Like kill Skelesnail with 2 hardball and later kill one Viper with 6 hardball? Probably a bit awkward to find a good spot to kill a Viper in volcano without losing a bit of time?
Then just maybe you heal only once in the whirlpool (although unlikely)?

Skarsnik

2016-08-22 10:11:31 am

Thank to Chrillepan I came up with an easy setup for the reverse desert skip. You don't need to go fast

https://www.twitch.tv/skarsnikus/v/85075336

MetaSigma

2016-08-22 10:37:18 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

6 Hardball Viper and 2 Hardball Skelesnail are not 100% kills though. Also killing a Viper quickly in the volcano would be a time loss greater than it would benefit you later on. Not to mention the best Vipers to kill can just decide to despawn thus completely wasting the money you'd gain.

Having had a chance to look at GA's testing I agree that buying during the 15min timer is faster than having to listen to the whole thing is better.